00:00Let's talk to Dr. Mohit Yousaf, former National Security Advisor for Pakistan.
00:05Dr. Yousaf, a very warm welcome to you. Good to see you.
00:09First of all, what is Pakistan's role in this crisis?
00:17So far, Pakistan's been desperately trying to play facilitator or the go-between between Iran and the U.S.,
00:25trying to see if there is a way to get them in the room to talk and get to an
00:30off-ramp.
00:31Pakistan is hugely, hugely dependent on stability in the Middle East for its own survival, its energy needs.
00:39It's got a defense pact with Saudi Arabia, has a long border with Iran, a very close relationship with the
00:46U.S.
00:46So the longer this conflict goes, the tougher it becomes for Pakistan to hold this very fine balancing act.
00:54And that's why it's been pushing very hard to see if it can facilitate a conversation that would end this
01:01conflict.
01:03Military escalation, though, is continuing, isn't it?
01:06We're reporting the strikes and the troop deployment.
01:10Is there really still any meaningful diplomatic window?
01:18Look, I mean, I think from Pakistan's perspective, it's got to try.
01:21And that's why you had the foreign ministers of Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Egypt in Pakistan just yesterday.
01:29I think chances are low.
01:31There is no question about it.
01:33The odds are, unfortunately, in favor of this escalating, especially after President Trump's tweet today.
01:42I think, frankly, I would say it's ominous.
01:45But there are certain countries who know that even if they don't have the power to mediate and Pakistan doesn't,
01:51I don't think it can go in and force the U.S.
01:53or Iran to change its mind or its proposals or its negotiating position.
01:59At least it can try and other countries that it's got with it try to see if there can be
02:06some conversation.
02:07Because once you start diplomatic conversations, usually one thing or another will come out of it.
02:12But also remember, there is one big problem here that the one of the key players or the key player,
02:19I would argue, in this conflict, apart from Iran, Israel, is not in the room.
02:24And it's proven so far that it's actually not been interested in letting this conflict find an off ramp.
02:31So I think that's a question, Mark, even if there was a conversation between the U.S. and Iran, would
02:36that end the conflict?
02:37I don't know.
02:38Can you help us and explain, I mean, how do these indirect U.S.-Iran communications actually work in practice?
02:50I mean, it's as simple as Pakistan having a very good relationship, the leadership of Pakistan having a great relationship
02:57with the U.S. president right now.
02:59They can talk to him directly and his team.
03:02They can talk directly to the leadership in Tehran.
03:06And whatever messages they get, they can weigh.
03:09And if the 15-point, for instance, plan that the United States gave went through Pakistan, i.e. Pakistan got
03:15it and passed it on, got Iran's response, passed it on.
03:19It's essentially purely a go-between role while pushing to see if there is any other way that they can
03:26get a more direct conversation going between the two.
03:31Are we seeing, do you think, the rise of middle power mediation where, kind of like Pakistan, Turkey and other
03:39countries from the global south, play a larger diplomatic role than we've been used to?
03:47Yes, I think we are.
03:49I think that's the future of the world we're looking at.
03:51In two scenarios, this will become very important.
03:55One, where great powers, the U.S.-China, are not interested in managing a particular issue, conflict or region.
04:03Middle powers will become important.
04:05Or if one of the great powers or both great powers are actually involved in a particular conflict, like in
04:10this case, middle powers will again become very important.
04:14And I think you are going to see issue-based middle power coalitions come up as the future of diplomacy
04:20and global geopolitics.
04:22And this may be a very good example of that.
04:25Not the first one, by the way, but a very good example of that.
04:28Dr. Yousaf, I'm sure we'll talk again many times in the coming weeks.
04:31But for the moment, thank you for your time, Dr. Mohit Yousaf, the former National Security Advisor for Pakistan.
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