00:00Let's talk to the technology journalist Chris Stokel-Walker in Newcastle.
00:03Chris, welcome back. I wonder what kind of precedent does this ruling set?
00:10Yeah, it is an enormous one. This was a bellwether case designed specifically to test the waters on whether or
00:16not there was a case to answer here for social media companies.
00:19And it turns out that 10 out of 12 jurors in this Californian court agreed and said actually that social
00:27media had caused this irreparable harm to this young person who we know now to be called Kaylee, the 20
00:33year old who was affected in such horrible way as a child.
00:36So not only is this a big case for what it does in this individual instance, but also it sets
00:42that precedent that will allow all these other cases.
00:44And we understand there are several hundred, if not thousands of them still to come around the corner.
00:50And that will have a big impact on social media.
00:53I wonder what response then we'll see from the global social media companies, especially, as you say, if more cases
01:00like this are coming through.
01:03Yes, we've seen immediate response from them, Jamie, in terms of both Meta and Google.
01:08Both said that they disagree with the decision of the court and that they intended to appeal or to explore
01:14their legal options available to them.
01:16That, I think, means in both of those corporate speak terms that actually they will be appealing this and that
01:22this will continue.
01:23What's notable is that those two companies were just four, were just half of the four that were meant to
01:28be actually appearing in court.
01:30Two other companies, Snap and TikTok, they both settled before the case came to actually the court and did so
01:37with no sort of indication of any wrongdoing at all.
01:41So this isn't just a problem for those two companies that have been on the dock here.
01:45It is for the broader social networks to kind of think about what the consequences could be.
01:50And for governments to think about as well, I guess, Australian style social media bans for under 16s is being
01:57considered in a number of countries.
01:59I wonder how likely are we going to see it being increasingly implemented?
02:05Yeah, this is one of the curious wrinkles of this whole court case, which is that it kind of gives
02:11grist to the mill of those who say that we want to continue doing this
02:15and enable a sort of banning or some sort of curfew on social media and tech more generally.
02:21So in the UK, we've had announced this week a 300 family trial to see different methods of maybe tamping
02:28down social media use.
02:29We obviously have the European Union doing similar things, as you mentioned, Australia.
02:33What's interesting here is that the American example is a curiously American way of arriving at the same sort of
02:38solution,
02:39which is rather than going through government, it instead goes through the courts at expense of litigation.
02:44I mean, how much more addictive has social media become in the last decade or so?
02:51Is it possible to quantify that?
02:54It's exceedingly difficult, and that is one of the reasons why Australia's social media ban is quite so interesting,
03:00because effectively we have for the first time in history a population level involving millions of people study going on
03:07that can actually say, for true or false, whether or not social media is addictive.
03:12Just because this quarter of 12 people has said that it is doesn't necessarily mean that argument is not settled
03:20yet,
03:20because actually those 12 people were making judgments based on what they heard in court
03:24and the emotional impact that happened to Kayleigh.
03:27We have to wait, I think, a little bit more for the science to decide quite how damaging it is.
03:31And there will be lots of people in corporate computer world saying, Chris, well, what about the parents' role here?
03:37They've got some responsibility, haven't they?
03:41Indeed, and that is one of the things that I think is why we need to wait for the Australia
03:45case,
03:45because Kayleigh was in many ways a sort of really strong bellwether of this situation,
03:52but was also in many ways quite unique in her situation.
03:57She seemed to have a very difficult childhood, which in part pushed her towards social media
04:01and really was, I think, responsible for some of the more unhealthy behaviours that she had.
04:06Not to say that their social media platforms aren't in any way culpable,
04:10the court has now found that, but just that there is a degree of responsibility here
04:14that needs to be shared between not just the companies involved,
04:17but also governments and also parents as well.
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