00:09Two wars going on right now at Europe's doorstep.
00:13It's a pleasure and an honor to welcome the former Prime Minister of Denmark, former Secretary
00:19General of NATO, head of the consultancy Rasmussen Global, Andres Fogg-Rasmussen.
00:24So many thanks for speaking with us here at France 24.
00:27Pleasure to meet you.
00:29You're one of the keynote speakers here at the Paris Defense and Strategy Forum.
00:35Right now, that second war we're talking about started by a president of the United States
00:42who consulted only non-NATO member Israel, who has a pliant Congress, who has cabinet members,
00:50who wear dress shoes that he buys them even when they don't fit to show their loyalty.
00:57Is Donald Trump a dictator?
01:00No, Donald Trump is not a dictator.
01:02But he is pretending to be a strong man in line with President Putin and President Xi
01:09Putin.
01:10And basically, they are arguing the same way.
01:14So, I think our conclusion is now the United States is in the process of turning its back on Europe.
01:24So, Europe must take care of its own affairs.
01:28In the process of taking its back, now you, when you were the Secretary-General of NATO,
01:34you know, for the general public, Secretary-General of NATO, it's a facilitator in a suit and it's a round
01:40table.
01:41But you don't really realize until now just how much you're almost an employee of the United States
01:47because the U.S. has so much power inside of NATO.
01:52What happens to NATO if what you're saying is true?
01:55Well, without the United States, NATO does not exist.
02:00So, I still think NATO will remain the cornerstone of European North Atlantic security.
02:09But NATO must change its face and structure.
02:14We need a more European NATO.
02:17NATO, we need to strengthen the European pillar within NATO based on the coalition of the willing,
02:27which is now being formed under the leadership of France and the United Kingdom.
02:32Yeah, 32 members inside of NATO.
02:34You're saying France and the UK, non-EU member, but you're putting them top of the list there with France.
02:40Yeah, because even if the United Kingdom is no longer a member of the EU,
02:49the UK plays a crucial role when it comes to security.
02:54And we need to strengthen the relationship between the United Kingdom and the rest of Europe.
03:04So, I appreciate very much the joint French-British leadership of this coalition of the willing.
03:12What I would like to see would be a more rapid process.
03:19The coalition of the willing must not be the coalition of the waiting.
03:23Right. So, we know about the spending part.
03:25Each side asked to do more in terms of spending.
03:28We'll talk more about your native Denmark in a moment on that front.
03:32But then, is it also about, when you think of the UK, does it mean if the United States is
03:38turning its back on Europe,
03:39does that mean weaning itself off dependency when it comes to nuclear deterrence?
03:44Does it mean leaving that five eyes intelligence gathering a system they have with the United States
03:51and joining a European one instead?
03:53Well, I think we can still count of the American nuclear umbrella.
04:00But the fact that doubts have been raised about the American commitment to European security,
04:11that fact makes it necessary for Europe to consider how could we build a nuclear capability ourselves.
04:20And in that respect, I appreciate the recent speech by President Macron,
04:27who launched a new French nuclear strategy and extending, so to speak, the French nuclear umbrella
04:39to the rest of Europe. And I think that's a promising and necessary path.
04:45Would you share intelligence with the United States under the current circumstances?
04:51Yes, of course. But I think…
04:55Even if they're, for example, threatening to take over Greenland?
04:58Well, I think if the United States were to attack Greenland and by that a NATO ally, Denmark,
05:11that would be the end of NATO. But for the time being, they have backed off. So I think we
05:22should now
05:22concentrate on building the coalition of the willing, strengthening the European pillar of NATO,
05:32strengthening the nuclear deterrence. We need a European nuclear deterrence to deter a nuclear-armed
05:41Russia. And in that respect, I think the speech of President Macron was essential.
05:47Russia is still the top priority if you're European. Absolutely. I mean, after the Russian attack
05:57against Ukraine back in 2022, we are in a new security environment. And that takes a new security
06:06framework in Europe. We have to realize we are alone. We must stand on our own feet. For much too
06:20long,
06:21Europe has been dependent on cheap energy from Russia, cheap goods from China, and cheap security
06:30from the United States. That model doesn't work any longer. So a country like Denmark, which has all
06:38those U.S.-made F-35 jets, what do you do? That's not something where you can snap your fingers
06:44and overnight you have a different fleet. No. Of course, we will still have a close cooperation
06:50with the United States. We need that. But we have to strengthen the European capabilities. We have to
06:58expand the European production of weapons systems, military capabilities, ammunition. And also,
07:09when it comes to energy, we must reduce our dependency on external actors.
07:16And right now, you have this war, which is of Donald Trump's choosing, which is sending energy prices
07:23soaring. We're very worried about natural gas prices here in Europe. The question then is,
07:31what lessons have you learned in the last 25 days, when it comes to, for instance,
07:37a fire in a laundry room being enough to make an aircraft carrier turn around? When it comes to the
07:42fact that you have missile defenses, which might be running low in those Gulf states? What are the
07:48lessons you've learned in 25 days? I think we have learned several lessons. First, that the United
07:54States started this war without consulting European allies. Another testament to the fact that we own
08:03our own. Secondly, how important it is to build up stocks of military capabilities.
08:11We are producing too little, too slowly right now. And my third lesson is that we also need to prepare
08:23for
08:23the future warfare. We have to invest much more in high-tech military capabilities, drones,
08:34high-tech military warfare across the board, and not wait decades for the production of tanks, fighter jets,
08:48naval vessels, etc., etc. It's an old chestnut when you come to a forum like this one. Whether or not
08:54there's ever going to be a joint fighter plane made by France, Germany and Spain. Right now, the smart money
09:02says no. When it comes to, again, made in Europe, how fast can we go?
09:08Yeah, but we should go much, much faster. What is much faster?
09:12But we have to deploy military capabilities in a few months, not in a year's time, not to speak about
09:22decades. And I think our defense industries are much too slow
09:30in delivering the necessary military equipment, ammunition, etc. So instead of focusing on what I
09:40would call the traditional heavy military capabilities, we should be much, much smarter, much quicker by
09:49focusing on drones and other high-tech military capabilities. The fact is that the war in Ukraine has
09:59demonstrated how important it is to be at the forefront when it comes to high-end, high-tech
10:08military capabilities. In today's war in Ukraine, more people are killed by drones than by artillery.
10:16So it's election day in Denmark. And you have just recently raised the military service conscription,
10:26something that disappeared here in France a quarter century ago, from four to 11 months for
10:31both young men and women. How's that going? Should that be the norm all over the continent?
10:36Yes, I think so. We really have to mobilize our will. Do you see that will?
10:48I think the Russian attack against Ukraine and the election of Trump in the United States
10:56were wake-up calls. At least it should be wake-up calls for
11:00the whole of Europe. We need a new mentality. We need to infuse in the whole of the population
11:09the will to defend our freedom, our democracy, our way of life. And to that end, I think conscription
11:18is an efficient tool. Conscription all over the European continent, you're saying?
11:24Yes. Now, you began this conversation by saying how Putin is acting like Vladimir Putin, like Xi Jinping.
11:35My question then, when you look at the way the Europeans have to leverage it at this point in
11:43time, what leverage do they have? Because when the war fighting stops in Iran, at that point in time,
11:50will Donald Trump, if he feels like a wounded lion, turn on Ukraine?
11:58No, but I actually, I think we in Europe should learn
12:04to act in the same transactional way as Donald Trump. First, Donald Trump launched a war without
12:14consulting Europeans. Next, when he realizes that he is walking into big troubles, he asked the Europeans
12:24to help him open the Hormuz strait. I think we should have told Trump, okay, we are also interested in
12:34the opening of the Hormuz strait. But in exchange for helping you, you must help Europe. You should
12:41continue supporting Ukraine. You should abolish all threats. Who makes the call? Who calls up Donald Trump
12:49and does the face-to-face negotiation for that? I would add to this, you should abolish the terrorist threats
12:57against Europe. Who makes that call? Who's the one who calls Trump from Europe? Yeah, but
13:10I think strong leaders from big countries should make the call. The problem is, many of them are too weak
13:21right now. One final question for you. Again, if it comes to Donald Trump then turning on Ukraine after
13:28the war in Iran is over. The come to daddy, as the current Secretary General of NATO said last year,
13:35flatter Donald Trump, keep him on board. That's out the window, is what you're saying.
13:40I think time for flattering is over. Now we should stand up firmly to President Trump.
13:48Anders Fogh Rasmussen, so many thanks for speaking with us here at France 24.
13:52Thank you for having me.
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