- 2 months ago
Tom Hardin has done some pretty dumb things for a pretty smart guy. His new book, Wired on Wall Street, is the wild, cringe-worthy, and ultimately inspiring story of how a hotshot trader convinced himself that insider trading was totally fine, right up until the FBI showed up to politely disagree. What happens next shapes the rest of his life.
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00:00i really had no idea where this was going like are they really building cases until one day in
00:05the fall of 2009 friday morning my wife just had our first child she's at home on maternity leave
00:10we're up at 6 a.m fbi says turn the tv turn on cnbc there's 20 guys in handcuffs all
00:16these names
00:17are on the screen people i recognize there's one name dan that was not released and they were
00:22calling this person like right in the middle of all this tipper x and i called the fbi to make
00:26sure am i tipper x he's like yeah that's you hey everyone welcome to how success happens i'm dan
00:37bova writer and editor at entrepreneur.com and today we've got something a little bit different from the
00:43norm uh we talk so much about the kind of inspirational side of striving for success but today's guest is
00:51going to talk about the darker side of that chase uh where it can lead and what to do if
00:58in his words
00:59you completely blow up your life tom harden is our guest today he's the author of the new book
01:06wired on wall street i've got an advanced copy right here which tells his personal story of becoming
01:12tipper x an fbi informant in the largest insider trading investigation of this generation welcome
01:20tom all right it's a pleasure to be here thank you for having me on and uh yes it should
01:26be noted
01:26for the record we are both wired right now that's right no longer me for the fbi though thank you
01:34thank goodness well tom this is a wild wild story uh it and it reads like you know just for
01:43people who
01:44want to read like a edge of your seat book it's great for that it's great talking about the ethical
01:50side of things just everything about it i i really really love this book um and the scary part for
01:56me personally is that it's not like you tom you're like set out to become some super villain and i'm
02:03going to rob a bank and i'm going to become the richest man in the world it's as you uh
02:07describe
02:07you're working at a hedge fund and there's these shortcuts and there's this little slippery slope but
02:13that's not that's a bad and then it sort of comes into something bigger yeah that's right um you know
02:20i i grew up in georgia um you know middle class family first in my family to leave the south
02:25to
02:25attend college at upenn wharton so got was a great student and got into the hedge fund world uh we're
02:31talking uh nearly two thousands around the time of the the tech stock bubble and you know dan in the
02:38first few years of my career i became aware that insider trading was was rampantly happening in my
02:43in my hedge fund industry it was sort of a sort of an open secret where funds would hire uh
02:49analysts
02:50to work for them to pick stocks and those analysts were hired from public companies in silicon valley
02:55so they would call back to their old contacts get this information i never felt i had to cross
03:00that line i was always considered a good investor i really like looking at companies
03:04um long and short is interesting in tech stocks because that means you can bet on the on the new
03:10company and short or bet against the old companies so as i wrote in the book one idea i had
03:17that i
03:17never saw come fully to fruition was about a year after the google ipo to be long google and to
03:23be short
03:24the yellow pages uh and younger listeners will not know what the yellow pages are but daniel and
03:29i know so look it up on wikipedia i'm sure you're working at a hedge fund
03:34and i i believe as you wrote you're you're doing well what sort of uh got you onto this this
03:42slope
03:42that you you talk about so at 28 29 years old i'm a junior partner at a hedge fund my
03:48final the final
03:49place i worked um my uh we were investing with the three-year horizon sort of these ideas of long
03:55google bet against yellow pages but we lost money in the first quarter of my second fund which really
04:01shouldn't have mattered because we were investing longer term my boss walks into my office closes the
04:06door and says hey we just lost money in the first quarter we have to start looking for shorter term
04:12opportunities to make money every month or we may not survive and when any goal of any business
04:17goes from three years uh to now the the the scoreboard resets every 30 days um the opportunity
04:24to start looking for corners to cut certainly increases and i'd also say dan it was a very
04:30ambiguous message you know do what it takes he knows what everybody else is doing me as the young
04:36analyst i didn't ask any clarifying questions of my boss who was my mentor hey are we talking about
04:41what everybody else is doing or are we going to stay within the legal or ethical guardrail so i
04:45always encourage people today in my talks to ask those clarifying questions just don't make
04:50assumptions and get lost in this sort of ambiguity of what do we mean here now did when you start
04:56to
04:56get into this line of thinking do you i mean wall street the movie wall street was out by that
05:03point
05:03do you start to feel like uh charlie sheen in this scenario what's uh what's happening a little bit
05:09so just a few months after that meeting uh i received a tip from another investor who i knew
05:14had worked for this billionaire raj roger otnam i mentioned in the book he's probably the most famous
05:19person later to be charged in these cases she says hey everybody's doing this gives me a tip
05:24on a private equity company who's going to buy a public company in a few weeks here's the date here's
05:30the price here's the private equity firm so when i speak at colleges i say hey students imagine
05:35you know the answers to the test just fell in your lap are you are you going to look at
05:38them
05:38or just throw them away and i didn't make any trades but i shared it with a friend who was
05:44losing money that month i said hey i have something for you that'll help you um just right there so
05:48people know i've now violated insider trading laws just by sharing this information and i haven't
05:53traded yet he tells his whole firm he calls me back you know dude did you buy some and then
05:58i hate to
05:59say it but i was sort of having fomo like this guy's going to make millions so i gave the
06:02information to
06:03the woman that called me is going to make millions and i'm just going to sit here and watch this
06:08and when somebody crosses a line there's something called a fraud triangle there's a need to cross a
06:14line so we had this need for short-term performance there's an opportunity so at my firm i could buy
06:20a
06:20stock in the portfolio and not have to talk to my boss as long as it was less than one
06:25percent of the
06:26funds that we managed so a very small position so i remember calculating and buying a zero point nine
06:32percent position in the portfolio in this stock and the third element of the fraud triangle is
06:38rationalization so i can tell you every rationalization i use these other guys are doing
06:43it who am i hurting this is victimless i'm just buying it before everybody else i'll do it just this
06:48one time so very poor self-talk you know in that situation uh at that moment in time yeah and
06:56uh as
06:56you write because it wasn't it wasn't like you were doing this for for decades uh this is sort of
07:02a
07:02relatively short period of time but you wrote about uh a moment where you realized okay maybe this is a
07:10little sketchier than i realize and that has to do with a a bundle of cash uh can you talk
07:17a little
07:17bit about that that's right so this is where it escalates um so the deal happens as she says the
07:23stock's up 30 i thought oh my gosh is my boss gonna fire me he's gonna see this trade he
07:29basically looks
07:29the other way uh you know the term is uh willfully blind so he says hey don't tell me how
07:34you're doing
07:34this but keep doing it and then she calls me and says the guy that tipped her uh wants uh
07:4015 000
07:41in cash or excuse me 10 000 in cash can i write this guy a check i thought what the
07:48you can imagine
07:49when i said yeah that's illegal you know i rationalized the trade that doesn't sound so bad to
07:55me but actually writing a guy a freaking check i won't do that but i called my friend who i
08:00tipped i
08:00said hey here's the situation if we're going to get more of these ideas um we have to pay the
08:05source
08:05he gives me the cash uh and this guy's going to be in new york i'm leaving my my uh
08:11office on 40th
08:14street manhattan park avenue this guy in the corner says are you tom i don't even look at him then
08:20i just
08:20i just hold the envelope of it could have been anybody in manhattan but i remember at that point
08:25feeling very disgusted with myself and what would what would my grandmother say uh i mentioned in
08:31the book grandma harden was a big sort of character who helped pay for my college education like that's
08:36a good test if you're going to make this decision what would grandma say yeah she would not have been
08:40happy yeah oh man geez now you write about this in the book and i've heard you talk about this
08:50in
08:50interviews where you know the obvious uh thing that most people would think that's bleeding you
08:57on is like hey who doesn't want to make more money but for you it wasn't quite about that it
09:03was it was
09:03more about being on the inside of something can you talk a little bit about that yeah i had this
09:09fear
09:09of not as you mentioned um in my 20s i was very insecure about not being part of the illicit
09:15in group
09:15always felt i was on the outside of people who was getting this information and this goes all the
09:20way back to college as i wrote you know i'm tom from georgia at this highway league school i don't
09:24fit in and it kind of went through my career and on the four trades uh in my talks today
09:30i say you know
09:31ladies and gentlemen what do you think i personally made and people start shouting oh millions of
09:35dollars and then right there on the screen you know forty six thousand dollars which i say is the
09:41price of professional suicide and people always think well the bad guy must have made millions like
09:47why would you do it otherwise and yeah that's not really the case it's often these rationalizations
09:53being lost in the group you know making yourself feel like you're not doing as bad as the other person
09:58and i never thought about the money i made on these trades it was more about you know now that
10:02i had
10:03the information now i very foolishly thought i have status now i'm part of this end group who seems to
10:09have status in the industry yeah uh i mean i i think everyone can relate on some level to that
10:16for sure um can you talk about the other time when the the time when someone said your name and
10:25uh
10:25invited you to uh upstairs at a wendy's can you tell us about that i'll never forget that um so
10:33i want
10:33to say it was about nine months after the fourth and final trade where it's kind of out of sight
10:37out of
10:38mind because it's now 2008 financial crisis people remember that time it was just crazy the stock
10:43market was getting crushed these banks were going under i'm just trying to survive at work now it's
10:48july of 2008 6 30 in the morning i'm leaving my apartment in manhattan to drop off some dry cleaning
10:55and somebody behind me on the manhattan sidewalk says are you thomas covey harden and dan the last time
11:02i heard my full name was my mother back in georgia and it wasn't her she wasn't she wasn't i
11:07turned
11:09around and just everybody's seen you know this the scene in a movie or a tv show fbi come sit
11:14down with
11:15us uh two agents male and female uh dark suits that wallet you know flips open and everybody sort of
11:21always asked me why did you sit down at a wendy's it just happened to be a wendy's next to
11:25my dry cleaner
11:25so it wasn't like we were looking for a wendy's and we went upstairs at this at this wendy's and
11:31he said hey man we know about your four trades we know that you were just down in georgia visiting
11:37your baby nephew and then they knew his name and i was just there two days before and my first
11:42thought
11:42was oh my god my my parents are going to kill me right right they only they only could talk
11:47about
11:47my success you know just stay on the hedge fund is i'm just doing well oh my gosh my wife's
11:52going to
11:52leave we just got married oh my god i might be going to prison but that was my line of
11:56thought
11:56right there you know worst day of my life in that moment with the fbi in the wendy's wow
12:03so what did they what did they say to you uh i know well i read the book so i
12:10don't want to give
12:10away too much but um they uh encouraged you to be uh a part of a program rather than you
12:20know just
12:21having all those things happening most notably going to jail that's right this they asked me if i
12:27was aware of insider trading happening on wall street and of course i said it's rampant and they
12:32said that i could help them build these cases against other people it's going to help me out
12:36i took their card they said should i talk to a lawyer and the fbi actually said we'll let you
12:41know when you can do that uh so they're not supposed to say that uh two people like me killed
12:46them killed themselves that summer i wrote in the book just very tragic situations where people were
12:50approached and thought that was it it was pretty dark for me um i finally told my wife on friday
12:56i
12:56was that she was the only person i could tell and it wasn't an easy conversation but um as people
13:01will
13:02see in the book you know i'm not the hero of the story she she is and she took it
13:05you know as as well
13:07as she could at the time um saying hey you know you didn't do anything to hurt me if the
13:11fbi has given
13:12you a chance to clean up the industry you should do it uh 85 of marriages will end uh you
13:17know right in
13:17that moment around that moment when the spouse brings in a federal felony she just kept saying
13:23um hey tom you got us into this you're gonna get us out of it somehow it's really hard for
13:28me to
13:28pinpoint her um resolve to just stick with me through this because we didn't have children yet
13:34so she could have very easily left or have the marriage absolved you know in the church um you know
13:41many wives would say you know i don't even know this person like i didn't know you were insider
13:44trading i got married to a good guy um but it wasn't it wasn't easy and um she was just
13:50very
13:50stoic about it we could just focus on things we could control and can't control a lot of things
13:55so for for two years the fbi had been running around wall street uh some crazy stories as you
14:00mentioned in the book every every chapter i'm in a situation where um my my hands are sweating my yeah
14:07my heart's racing my editor said you've written this like 17 times i'm like well this is true like
14:12how else can i say this is this is exactly it um trying to get people also people i didn't
14:19know
14:20that well so the fbi gave me this open playing field who are the worst actors and so anybody
14:24listening can imagine you know pretend you don't know me that well you're meeting me at starbucks
14:29uh the cover for the meeting is i'm looking for a job it's 2008 and i'm trying to get you
14:34to confess
14:34about insider trades you did maybe a few years ago of course people would look at me and think why
14:40is this guy asking me all these pointed questions i was terrible at it at the start
14:44well that i was i was really shocked to to read that part which is that you got little to
14:53no
14:53training as far as i could tell they were just like go get information so like what did you what
14:59did
14:59you learn about like doing that i had to figure it out and i didn't really have the context for
15:05this
15:05still i started writing the book last year which was years later um watching some fbi hostage
15:10negotiation speakers and cia speakers and so what the fbi taught me to do eventually when i was
15:17fumbling this would say they'd say ask a question tom of the target and then stop and say nothing and
15:22have that silence and so i would just sit there and it felt like a minute or two would go
15:28by because
15:28they'd size me up but there's one chapter called the three meeting dance where i'd meet with the
15:34person in person i'd follow up on the phone call and come back in person and by the third meeting
15:40in person they would get comfortable enough with me where they would also talk about their sources
15:47i would mirror their language so i said oh yeah i have my sources too and sort of mirror their
15:52the way that they moved around that like their own body language and it's harder actually to do this on
15:57the phone of course because you're you don't get the body language um but that was kind of how i
16:01figured it out ask a question do not say anything and then the fbi would say tom you're done here
16:06on
16:07to the next one but i really had no idea where this was going like are they really building cases
16:13until one day uh in the fall of 2009 when they asked me to turn on the tv yeah so
16:20uh what would um
16:23look at this guy's a great storyteller everyone wants to know what happened you turn on the tv what
16:29do you see so friday morning uh my wife just had our first child she's at home on maternity leave
16:34we're up at 6 a.m uh you know with the baby fbi says turn on the tv turn on
16:40cnbc there's there's 20
16:42guys in handcuffs and the perp walks um everybody's seen you know the fbi windbreaker jackets are out
16:47the news cameras just happen to be there at their apartments or homes when they're being walked out
16:52and all these names are on the screen people i recognize there's one name dan that was not released
16:58and they were calling this person like right in the middle of all this they were calling him tipper x
17:04and i called the fbi and i'm an analyst by training so i can kind of figure out who tipper
17:08x is
17:09and i called the fbi to make sure and my tipper x he's like yeah that's you and i wasn't
17:16sure you
17:17know how long how long the tipper x secret would last it would only last a few more months until
17:21my
17:21name was released so after it gets released i mean you you write about like you know depression and all
17:30kinds of you know bad things are happening uh physically um but what about just the fear of
17:38retribution like what was that like living with that yeah when my name came public i was scared
17:44you know these are people who are not happy i'm sure that i was you know involved with this who
17:49potentially is taking away their their freedom right they might be looking at prison
17:52i talked to the fbi about that they said hey if you get any threatening calls or confrontations just
17:58to let them know but it was i didn't really feel like they were in my corner too much as
18:01you can
18:02probably see from the book that was sort of use tom until we can't use them anymore until he hires
18:06an attorney which i didn't for a while yeah so i was nervous about that i was we had moved
18:12to new
18:12jersey from the new york city so we were just sort of starting like a new life with you know
18:17a new
18:17baby and i just um i worried about that but you know sue my wife was just so amazing she
18:24said just
18:24focus on being a stay-at-home father the best you can be obviously you can't work right now until
18:28you're
18:29sentenced and i went into kind of a shame spiral as i described i got very heavy um had trouble
18:35carrying my daughter up the stairs and then i went to the doctor it wasn't great at the doctor
18:40my wife signed me up for a 5k so i ended up losing 70 pounds uh running like crazy i
18:46mentioned ultra
18:46marathons in the book just focusing on my fitness but i was also not dealing with my professional
18:52future dan like looking back and writing the book last year and thinking about it yes i got the
18:56fittest i ever got but also whenever sue wanted to have a conversation about our future i said i just
19:02went for a run so i was using that as as sort of a cushion for for not having to
19:07deal with my with my
19:08stuff yeah and you know i was going to ask you about your your kind of recipe for kind of
19:16pulling
19:17yourself out of that and the exercise is a big part of it but i also just wanted to ask
19:21like you know i
19:22think about myself sometimes i wake up in the middle of the night and i like go oh shoot i
19:28didn't pay the whatever bill or like there's some thing that wakes me up and my mind starts going
19:33but i mean how did you sleep i did not sleep well for for years um you know part of
19:39that was just as
19:40a as a as the as a soul sort of stay-at-home parent just those obligations with young young
19:44kids but
19:45also the stress um one thing that so and also i mentioned um you know i went to the self
19:51-help
19:51aisle i was trying to help myself and actually focusing on yourself i wrote like turns out it
19:56doesn't help you because you're thinking about yourself too much and so one day again here comes
20:01my wife saying why don't you go volunteer at the church at night just help them in their food drives
20:06or clothing drives which we did so i went to the church and the guy just handed me a clipboard
20:10he
20:10didn't say oh you're tipper x he doesn't care right he just says hey your extra pair of hands
20:14come be a service and for the first time i started sleeping because i was thinking less about myself i
20:21kind of felt like all right i'm going to be a really good volunteer really good stay-at-home dad
20:25and maybe someday i'll figure out my professional future but it was very unclear to me
20:31for you know entrepreneurs listening imagine like you've blown up your reputation like anybody that
20:36googles you is going to find you know this stuff like i had they're not going to hire you know
20:40it's even hard to get funding for any idea my lawyer said start your own company i i started
20:45drop shipping on ebay before it was really a thing and my my suppliers were hijacking my my ebay
20:51listings so i was banging my head against the wall how do i start something with this tainted
20:56reputation and this went on for for years until i was finally sentenced in 2015 which was seven years
21:02years after that wendy's meeting with the fbi so basically all of my 30s were more or less gone at
21:08that point so when you say you were sentenced what came after that so i was sentenced to no prison
21:15because i helped the fbi build ultimately 20 of their 81 cases and uh because i did that the judge
21:22said
21:22you know there's no point sending you to prison uh just you're you're free to live with your you
21:27know go on with your life but i still had a felony conviction which is a major non-starter for
21:30pretty much any company um i was leaving the courtroom a reporter approached me so she said
21:37this is actually a really interesting story going from insider trader losing all the weight vegan
21:42ultra marathoner stay-at-home dad this might be just a nice story to have out there and and help
21:46me like
21:46more more own the story uh than somebody else owning it so she wrote this article uh a podcast producer
21:53reached out to me of a pretty big podcast 10 years ago uh went on that show and then the
21:59fbi um
22:00was listening somehow to this podcast an agent called me and i know the fbi's number is always
22:07restricted on my phone dan i said it's like what did i what did i do now it's these guys
22:11again and
22:11soon my wife is saying what did you do i don't know i answered the phone they said tom of
22:16those 81 guys
22:17we arrested you were the youngest tom and the 46 000 was the lowest amount of money and i said
22:23well
22:23thanks for rubbing it in i was actually trying not to get caught they said well that was a really
22:27interesting story why do highly educated otherwise good people go down this path why don't you come
22:34speak to the fbi i spoke to the fbi and they said hey you know what your calling should be
22:39is going to
22:40make lemonade and lemons go around share this story as a cautionary tale uh with with the financial
22:46services industry at that time and i didn't think about any sort of professional uh opportunity from
22:52this it was more of a pilgrimage i mentioned just going to colleges speaking for free trying to get my
22:58reps in my wife took another job she had been working at in the real estate market and lehman
23:03brothers before that and she was holding down the fort and i remember one day i got paid three thousand
23:08dollars for one talk and my wife was struggling with this new job and i could see she just wasn't
23:14into it anymore and i said don't worry i've got this you don't have to work anymore and she says
23:19you're
23:19crazy you've made three thousand dollars and i think dan like my ultimate moment of being accountable
23:24for this was just when my family my back was up against the wall i now have to step up
23:28or provide
23:29my wife shouldn't have to go through this anymore that was just the lit the fire in me to say
23:33okay
23:33i will now be starting a speaking business this is my entrepreneurial uh journey going going to try
23:39to speak with this with this tattered past so you know i i think it's amazing and uh and i
23:45i've i've
23:45heard you talk about you know the the talks that you give at colleges you know trying to trying to
23:52get us all or listeners to kind of like stop for a second and and think about some of the
23:59decisions
23:59that we're making these micro decisions i could add up to something bad but i'm wondering was there
24:06part of is there part of you that is like you know what i just want to move on from
24:11this uh i don't want
24:13people to i don't want to remind people what i did i want to just like start over was that
24:19a struggle
24:19with writing this book or and doing this speaking it is it's a great question i do wonder you know
24:26the book was so much more detailed than my usual kind of 45 minute keynote and going into this and
24:32now it's going to be out in the world you know and this year in 2026 um but i can
24:37tell you just it
24:38just feels like a calling like every time i give a talk especially not to now the next generation which
24:43i'm you know approaching you know my late 40s now and so there's a whole new crop of people on
24:48wall
24:48street or in any industry working whenever i can talk to them and they just come up to me and
24:53say
24:54i'll never forget this because you kind of seem like me a regular guy that got the situation over
24:58over his head that that keeps me going it's sort of i feel just like it's my calling uh to
25:04keep to
25:04keep sharing this story um also you know it's a balance of a it's a cautionary tale but i also
25:09think
25:10and with the book uh it's sort of a redemption story too just owning accepting responsibility
25:15for a major public failure and trying to make sense of it you've you've told your story a lot
25:21uh in in talks and you've written it now and i wonder like you know when you're talking to me
25:27about it you're you're recounting it are you like do your palms still get sweaty when you talk about it
25:34or is it almost like you're like telling somebody about a movie that you saw but you happen to be
25:39in
25:40like are you able to disconnect from it as you've told it over and over again um kind of in
25:45the in
25:45the post coveted years i've been able to disconnect so it's a great question um for my corporate talks
25:52or the conference keynote i take a minute before to put myself back in that headspace so i can actually
25:57feel my my palms sweating and my heart racing on stage so it i definitely want to bring that energy
26:03for
26:03all of my um engagements but i'm in a good place now where once i step off the stage and
26:08back to
26:08now being being taught right not being not being tipper x on on the stage so i've been able to
26:14compartmentalize that um to deliver you know what the client wants the impact that i want to deliver
26:19but also i'm not losing sleep anymore as we were talking about earlier at night is there um you know
26:25i know you you give uh give a a talk but is there kind of one thing that you tell
26:32people that
26:34you know you see kind of eyes open or heads tilt or that you that you feel like makes an
26:40impact with
26:41people when you're talking about what you've been through and how you kind of got yourself out of it
26:46people will um here's one thing actually in the book um people will when i started speaking years ago
26:53said oh tom you made some mistakes and paid for it and that made me feel better about it because
26:57the word mistake made me feel better and when you think about it i actually made bad decisions
27:02and anybody listening if we call our bad decisions mistakes we're not really owning those decisions it
27:08actually makes us feel better about them so it's important to look at our lives i think and we all
27:12make mistakes we all make bad decisions but to understand the difference between the two you know
27:17mistakes are something that you know was an accident and bad decisions were with some kind of intent
27:23so that's been an eye-opener for me even with my children now who are teenagers you can imagine
27:28all the mistakes that they're that they're looking at potentially and so for me as now as their father
27:34uh being able to sort of course correct so that's a big uh kind of eye-opener that i've seen
27:39that was
27:39sort of a process over the years of getting to that insight um and really as i as i go
27:45on this journey
27:46like anybody's scars can become their service so that's something i espouse with with people too just your
27:51worst moments can actually be of help for somebody else if you're willing to lean into that and share
27:58it is there any kind of daily habit that uh that you you know recommend something that's kind of helped
28:05you so one thing i do is i have a rationalization um journal going through this experience and any
28:15time i'm thinking about a big decision you know now that might be for for my kids or family or
28:19for my
28:20speaking business do i want to go in this direction or that and i start telling myself stories as to
28:24why
28:24that would be a good decision i write down those rationalizations i reflect on them um pretty often just to
28:31see what my to get the self-talk you know out of my head onto paper so that's something important
28:37i
28:37do pretty much every every day or every other day and uh you know i'm a big fan of uh
28:42mob movies and
28:43stuff like that and i'm wondering is there uh one that stands out to you as saying like you know
28:51they
28:52really nailed it with the the fbi and the informant relationship and is there anything that you've
28:59watched where you're like that is not how that happens yeah so the the departed um was a good one
29:09and another good one it's escaping me but the name of the the man who um if you remember the
29:14the atlanta olympics the 1996 there was a bombing richard richard there was a movie about him
29:20yeah or the fbi tried to frame him and the way that they approached him was almost exactly how they
29:26approached me they said richard you know we can help you out don't talk to a lawyer you know he's
29:30a young guy a security guy i think that they were trying to frame for the for the bombing at
29:35the
29:35olympic so that was actually very much very well written um other other stories you know um i don't
29:43know like like wolf of wall street wasn't my experience i mean that's a good story it's a different
29:47story um so but those are two and wall street we started off talking about that it's so it's so
29:53dated now
29:54but i you know that blue horseshoe loves anacott steel was kind of how the tip i got in away
29:58from
29:58the woman so it was very very familiar that's wild um well the book uh as people are listening to
30:06that
30:06i think it is hitting the uh the the shelves today uh it's called wired on wall street uh and
30:15how can
30:15people kind of besides the book how can they kind of keep up with what you're up to what you're
30:20talking
30:21about sure feel free to reach out to me uh the website's tipperx.com i actually just learned from
30:27the u.s patent office that i have the trademark on tipperx so i'm on the only uh on the
30:32only tipperx
30:32out there on the internet um so tipperx.com yeah so the next fbi case they they have to skip
30:38the tip of
30:39wow now has elon musk reached out to you about that does he want to buy no so yeah that's
30:47a good
30:47idea maybe i can uh exit my speaking business true here with elon the x i made sure the x
30:53looks
30:53different um at least at least get a but at least get a ride to mars or something you know
30:59get something
30:59out of it yeah yeah that's that's a good point and i'm i'm most active on linkedin so if people
31:05are
31:05on linkedin i'm always sharing my thoughts on sort of this behavioral risk and rationalizations and
31:10all these cases that we see pretty much every week you know there's something out there excellent
31:13all right tom thanks so much really appreciate your time thanks it was a pleasure
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