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00:00Tonight, the president escalates his Greenland takeover bid, threatening new tariffs on our
00:05European allies and refusing to rule out military action.
00:10Then the White House puts two army battalions on alert for possible deployment to Minneapolis
00:15in response to the ongoing protests.
00:17Plus, we are one month past the deadline for the Epstein files.
00:21What steps Congress is actually taking to force their release as the 11th hour gets underway
00:27on this Monday night.
00:32Good evening once again.
00:33I am Stephanie Ruhl, very grateful and pleased to be back with you tonight.
00:37And look at your calendar, baby, because we are now 287 days away from the midterms with
00:43a whole lot of news to cover.
00:44This week, the president and Speaker Mike Johnson are headed to Europe.
00:47The president is set to speak at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland on Wednesday.
00:52And tomorrow, the speaker will address British Parliament to commemorate 250 years of America's
00:58independence.
00:58Normally, this would be a very warm week of diplomacy between the United States and our closest allies
01:04in Europe.
01:05But this is not a normal administration.
01:07It is clear that Donald Trump's ambitions to somehow acquire Greenland are very serious.
01:13And those ambitions have put our relationship with Europe on thin ice.
01:16The president told NBC News that he will 100 percent follow through on his threats to impose new tariffs
01:23on goods from European countries that oppose his push for Greenland.
01:27When asked if he would use military force, his response, no comment.
01:32And it seems that this could all be connected to the president's obsession with, you guessed
01:38it, winning the Nobel Peace Prize.
01:40The president sent Norway's prime minister a message last night saying he is no longer obligated
01:46to think purely of peace because he didn't win the award.
01:49He also said the world is not secure unless the U.S. has total control of Greenland.
01:55Here at home, the immigration surge and ensuing protests are continuing in Minnesota.
02:01MSNOW has confirmed that two Army airborne battalions have been placed on alert for possible
02:07deployment there.
02:08That is according to a defense official.
02:10That is at least 1,000 active duty soldiers from a division that specializes in cold weather
02:17conditions.
02:17And the FBI is reportedly asking agents to now travel to Minneapolis for temporary assignments.
02:23Two sources told NBC at this point it is voluntary and there is not a mass surge of FBI agents
02:29headed to the city.
02:31There remains, however, roughly 3,000 federal immigration officers in that city.
02:37I'm going to take a deep breath before we start because that's a whole lot of news, guys.
02:41Now let's get smarter with the help of our lead off panel.
02:43And we surely need them tonight.
02:44MSNOW White House reporter Laura Barone-Lopez, Susan Glasser is back with us, staff writer
02:49for The New Yorker, Jillian Tett, a columnist and member of the Financial Times editorial
02:53board.
02:54She joins us live from Davos, Switzerland, where it is 5 a.m., so we are always grateful
02:58that she's here.
02:59But tonight, extraordinarily grateful.
03:01And Michael McFaul, former U.S. ambassador to Russia and now MSNOW International Affairs
03:07analyst.
03:07Jillian, because you are up so early for us, set the stage.
03:11How would you describe the relationship between the United States and Europe ahead of Trump's
03:17visit to Davos?
03:19Well, I'd say that I'm sitting in Davos, where it is indeed 5 a.m., and it's very cold outside.
03:25But by golly, does this Davos meeting feel hot?
03:29Because unfortunately, what President Trump has said in the last three or four days has
03:34completely dominated the agenda so far, because for the Europeans who are gathering here, they
03:40are extremely nervous.
03:41He's thrown down the gauntlet to them.
03:43You either need to capitulate over Denmark, over Greenland, or I'm going to impose tariffs.
03:50And the question right now for the Europeans is, do they actually have the courage and the
03:54strength to come together and to hit back?
03:56Or are they going to try and appease him yet again?
03:59Either way, it's very clear the transatlantic relationship is, if not completely broken,
04:04then very, very badly frayed right now.
04:07Susan, you talked to Trump about his desire for Greenland years ago, back in 2021.
04:12How does his answer then fit into this moment that we're in now?
04:17Yeah, Steph, we interviewed him in November of 2021 in Mar-a-Lago doing a book on Trump's
04:23first term, because we had been surprised to hear from senior officials who served in
04:27that first term that Trump's interest in Greenland was longstanding, that it was not just the
04:32laugh line that had been treated as when it became public in the summer of 2019.
04:36When we asked Trump about it in 2021, he said, you know, it's really about maps.
04:43I love maps.
04:44He treated it like he was a real estate developer.
04:46He said, it's massive, and we've got to have it.
04:49And he said further, it's just not any different than any other kind of a real estate deal.
04:55And I do think that you look at what Trump has been saying about this, and forget about
05:00all the sort of ex post facto efforts of his advisors to put some kind of national security
05:06gloss on this, to give it an elaborate rationale.
05:09Donald Trump told us the rationale.
05:11He said, it's a real estate deal.
05:13I want to have it.
05:14He wants to rewrite the world map and to put his name on it.
05:19This would be the largest land acquisition, you know, since the Louisiana Purchase.
05:23It would be something that would give Trump what he wants, which is a very straightforward
05:28form of immortality.
05:30He said the New York Times just a week ago, he said, psychologically, I need to own it.
05:36And I've talked with senior European officials who believe that for that reason, it's almost
05:40impossible to negotiate with Trump here because he doesn't want anything except to own it.
05:45He just wants his name on it.
05:47Like, Susan, as you said that, I was having flashbacks of Trump's first term when you had
05:52New York City apartment buildings and the residents fighting to get Trump's name literally removed
05:58from the side of their buildings.
06:00And now here we are.
06:01Michael, at the end of last year, someone said to me, a high-level source said to me, who won
06:062025?
06:08Trump's personal fortune and Russia.
06:11Then I saw BBC reporting that Russia is gloating over this Greenland fight.
06:16While Trump is saying that the U.S. doesn't take over Greenland, if they don't, Russia's
06:21going to.
06:21Does this make sense?
06:25This is the worst foreign policy idea in my lifetime.
06:30And I teach American foreign policy here at Stanford.
06:33I think it's the worst idea in the 250-year history of our country.
06:38So maybe Mr. Trump wants to put his name on it.
06:41That's fine.
06:42He could have his vanity projects.
06:44He just shouldn't do it as the president of the United States.
06:47We do not need to annex Greenland to protect ourselves from Russia and China.
06:53To the best of my knowledge, talking with very senior government officials from the previous
06:58administration, there is no evidence whatsoever that they have plans to annex Greenland.
07:04Are you kidding me?
07:06This is a joke.
07:07If we want to put our missiles there to defend our territory and build his dome, we can do
07:12that.
07:12We have missiles, by the way, in Poland and Romania and radars to do that.
07:17We have the Fifth Fleet in Bahrain without annexing it to provide deterrence in the Middle
07:23East.
07:23We have the Seventh Fleet in Japan to provide deterrence against China without annexing the
07:29territory.
07:29There is no strategic rationale for this.
07:32This is a vanity project for Mr. Trump, not President Trump.
07:37And all Europeans, I hope, will resist this because instead of debating Ukraine, which
07:43is a real threat that Russia is posing in Davos, they're going to all be talking about this.
07:48And I hope that will then embolden rational Republicans and Democrats in our Congress, in
07:55our society to say, this is ridiculous.
07:57We're not going to let it stand.
07:59And if, God forbid, he produces this outcome, the next president of the United States, the
08:04candidates running in 2028, should pledge that they'll give it back because we're under
08:09no obligation just to keep it as a fait accompli.
08:14There's too much fatalism with Trump.
08:16This is a bad idea, and we all need to be resisting it.
08:20Laura, Donald Trump we've seen behave over and over in sort of that bully style.
08:25He talks a really tough game from afar, and then when he's face-to-face, he gets a lot
08:30sweeter, he gets a lot softer.
08:32He's about to deliver this message in Davos on Wednesday, surrounded by all of these world
08:38leaders.
08:38What are we expecting to hear?
08:42Well, I think that these world leaders are on edge.
08:45I mean, that's what I'm hearing from Senator Chris Coons, who is there on the ground right
08:50now, the Democratic senator from Delaware.
08:52I just spoke to him earlier today, and he said that these European leaders, the Nordic
08:58country leaders, are dumbfounded.
09:01They are alarmed.
09:04There's widespread apprehension.
09:06And so they're really eager to talk to the president.
09:10They're eager to see if there is any pathway forward to walk him away and have him walk
09:16back all of these aggressive threats.
09:19But the issue is that he keeps escalating them.
09:22He's escalated them over the weekend.
09:23He escalated them today.
09:25And those around him, including his top advisers like Stephen Miller, seem to be pushing this
09:32as well, right?
09:33This idea that the U.S. has some kind of right to expand its territory, to expand its land,
09:39and demand that they need Greenland.
09:42But again, to Ambassador McFaul's point, Chris Coons was saying, the senator was saying just
09:48to me earlier today that the Danes are really flummoxed.
09:52They don't understand because for a year now, they have been telling the U.S., they've been
09:56telling the president that if you want to put more military assets on the ground in Greenland,
10:01or if you want some access to critical minerals, the U.S. can have all of that.
10:05That can be done.
10:06And despite the fact, the president and his team continue to say that that's not good
10:11enough, that they want Greenland itself.
10:14And so I think it really remains to be safe.
10:18He's getting the milk for free.
10:19He wants the cow stuff.
10:21But he wants it all.
10:23And there's no sign that he's going to back off of this.
10:26I know that, as you said, to your point, he does act differently when he's in the presence
10:30of other European leaders.
10:32But I don't know that that's going to necessarily change anything here, given the direction that
10:37the White House is heading in.
10:38And that even when they were asked today, we press them asking repeatedly about this text
10:44that the president sent to the Norwegian prime minister, saying that he deserved Greenland
10:49and that this was also he was upset about not being awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.
10:54And that was part of the reason that he wanted to go after Greenland.
10:58The White House, again, didn't back down, instead saying that they that the president is going
11:03to one way or another acquire Greenland.
11:06Well, he's justifying these new tariffs that are related to Greenland, saying he has to do
11:11it because it's a national emergency.
11:14And Treasury Secretary Scott Besson was asked about it on Meet the Press.
11:17And I must share his response.
11:21What is the national emergency that justifies these new slate of tariffs?
11:26The national emergency is avoiding a national emergency, that it it is a strategic decision
11:33by the president.
11:34This is a geopolitical decision.
11:37And he is able to use the economic might of the U.S. to avoid a hot war.
11:46OK, so declaring a national emergency to prevent a national emergency, is that the logic, Ambassador?
11:55It's completely illogical.
11:57And just because you call it strategic and geopolitical, it makes no sense.
12:01And I'm sure the secretary knows it makes no sense.
12:04What this will result in is tension, if not the end of NATO.
12:08What this will result in is no country wanting to ever work with us in the long term again.
12:14It's not in America's national security interests.
12:19Now, Trump may want to make Greenland Trump plan, but he's the president of the United States
12:24right now.
12:25He is not doing real estate deals.
12:27And I really hope that when he gets to Davos, our European allies will push back on him,
12:33because it's very clear, the pattern.
12:36If you try to capitulate, appease Trump, he just keeps taking.
12:40The Chinese, Xi Jinping, had a different strategy.
12:42He played the game of chicken with Trump, and he backed down.
12:46That is what we need from our European allies.
12:48And when I say we, I mean the vast majority of Americans.
12:52By 80 percent to 20 percent, Americans don't like this idea.
12:57And therefore, that, I think, gives leverage if we stand against this idiotic idea, which
13:04is just a vanity project, just like the ballroom, has nothing to do with American national security.
13:09But moving forward with it, we'll do real damage to our long-term national security in Europe
13:15and, I think, all around the world.
13:17One of the issues, Michael, is foreign policy is just not something people are focused on
13:22in their day-to-day lives.
13:24I do want to change topics and talk Minnesota.
13:26These troops are on standby, and the FBI is looking for agents to volunteer to go there
13:32and help.
13:33But just a couple days ago, it sounded like the president was backing off his sort of
13:38Insurrection Act threat.
13:39And polls are showing that Americans, to Michael's point, Americans do not like what they are seeing
13:44in Minneapolis.
13:45So where does the White House stand right now with all of this, Susan?
13:50Well, you know, Steph, I mean, talk about another situation where Donald Trump's social media
13:56stream has now become conflict made real.
14:00I think in both the case of Greenland and Minneapolis, what you're seeing is, you know, the costs and the
14:07consequences of Donald Trump's sort of, you know, brain eruptions becoming actual policy of an
14:14administration where there's no one to constrain him or to curb him.
14:19You have a situation where there was no conflict in Minneapolis.
14:23Trump and his advisers have sent more federal agents there than there are police by a large order of
14:32magnitude in order to create conflict with the local residents of the town.
14:36And that would then become the justification for sending in active-duty American military.
14:42This is another longstanding fantasy of Donald Trump's that goes back to his first term in office.
14:49He's determined to use the military to swaddle himself in their glory.
14:53And what's really shocking here is that he wants to send active-duty military against American
14:59citizens and residents of a community in a conflict he himself has provoked.
15:05So I hope that there are still people around Donald Trump who will argue against this.
15:10In 2020, when the Black Lives Matter protests broke out around the country, Donald Trump also
15:15wanted to invoke the Insurrection Act.
15:17And it was only the combination of his attorney general, his defense secretary, and his chairman
15:23of the Joint Chiefs who argued against it.
15:25Well, those kinds of people are all gone from his administration now.
15:29The guy who was arguing in favor of the Interaction Act in 2020 was Stephen Miller, who's at Donald
15:36Trump's side now.
15:37Not any of the people who were restraining him before.
15:39And I think that's why we have to take that threat very seriously.
15:43He's at Donald Trump's side with more power than ever.
15:46Jillian, nobody in Minnesota is thinking about what's going on where you are in Europe.
15:52I want to know, are people, are leaders there in Davos talking about reacting to what's
15:58happening in Minnesota?
15:59They're far away, but they have seen the images.
16:02Absolutely.
16:03And I was actually yesterday talking to both Senator Coons and Senator Mikulski, who are
16:09here in Davos desperately trying to present a normal, bipartisan, cooperative American face.
16:17And if you like, the grown-up side of American politics.
16:20And they're going around talking to all the Europeans and others saying, yes, we're still
16:24here.
16:24We're trying to reach out to the world and be collaborative and constructive.
16:28But in fact, what the European leaders are seeing and the Asian leaders is an image
16:33of America, which looks a bit like a Tudor royal court, where essentially you have this
16:38capricious monarch who is declaring orders based on his own personal whims.
16:44You have the courties around him essentially rushing to appease him.
16:48He's playing them off against each other and demanding that the rest of the world comes
16:52and either brings tributes or, if they're strong enough, sends an armada to use the Tudor royal
16:57court image again.
16:59And then he backs down.
17:00But this feeling of dealing with a capricious king, and in fact, I should say some non-American
17:07leaders are gossiping about whether it's a king with entirely clear-cut mental plans and
17:12things like that or not.
17:13But this feeling of dealing with a capricious king, both inside America and in the rest
17:17of the world, is one that's really frightening people right now.
17:21And of course, it's got some very dark implications.
17:24And this evening's nightmares have been brought to you by Jillian Tett.
17:28Laura, Susan, thank you so much.
17:31Ambassador, we're going to check back in with you in a bit.
17:33And Jillian, you didn't scare us quite enough.
17:35I'd like you to come back right after the break, because it will be time for Money Power
17:40Politics.
17:40Some economists are changing their tune.
17:43They are beginning to paint a rosy economic picture for 2026, despite the continuing tariff
17:49chaos.
17:50So what is driving this optimism?
17:52And later, look closely at that calendar.
17:55It is very important today.
17:57Today marks one month since the Epstein files.
18:00Remember that deadline?
18:01And only a fraction of the BOJ's records have even been released.
18:05So what exactly can Congress do?
18:08And are they willing to make it happen?
18:10The 11th Hour just getting underway on a Monday night.
18:12I am thrilled to be back.
18:18It is time now for Money Power Politics.
18:20And I have some real questions, because we now have some economists changing their tune
18:25on the president's economy.
18:26After dramatically slashing their forecast due to tariffs, the Wall Street Journal is reporting
18:31that some economists are now pushing up their estimates, even predicting growth above 2% for
18:37the year.
18:37So we've got to find out why.
18:39Let's bring in Rohit Chopra, former director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and
18:43key advisor to Democratic States Attorneys General.
18:46And Jillian of the Financial Times, still with us.
18:49OK, Rohit, I remember where we were back in April.
18:52It felt like the sky was falling because of tariffs.
18:55What's happening now?
18:56The Supreme Court hasn't ruled them out.
18:58Well, ultimately, we know that Trump did chicken out on the biggest of those tariffs.
19:05But look, there have been some revised forecasts.
19:08But we should be very clear about the two different economies that we're dealing with.
19:14One is really for people who have assets.
19:17They have seen their wealth skyrocket.
19:21The top 10% in the U.S. now have 90% of all stock market wealth.
19:28Meanwhile, you really see everybody else.
19:32Many are struggling with prices, with debt.
19:36And we see young people reporting some of the bigger challenges of after college, getting
19:43a job, 45% underemployed.
19:46So there really is two different pictures here.
19:50And the vast majority are not so happy.
19:53Jillian, let's stay right there.
19:55For those who might not have money in the stock market, life is a whole lot more expensive,
19:59right?
20:00Because of AI, lots of stocks are up.
20:03Because of AI, lots of those young people aren't getting jobs.
20:06And now there's new research showing that it was, in fact, American consumers and importers
20:11that absorbed 96% of the tariff costs.
20:15So how exactly do we define economic success?
20:19To Rohit's point, there's two separate economies.
20:23Absolutely.
20:24And the buzzword everyone's using to describe that is a K-shaped economy on the idea that
20:29for the wealthy, things are just going up and up and up, like the top bit of a K.
20:33For everyone else, it's going down.
20:35But you put a finger on a really important point, which is that even as the geopolitical
20:41clouds darken and people get very gloomy about geopolitics,
20:45In fact, here in Davos, where I'm speaking from, there is actually a real sense of optimism
20:50amongst many CEOs about where the economy is going and about what they think their company
20:55is going to be looking at in the next year in terms of demand.
20:59Now, the one big caveat is there's also fear that if these Greenland tensions spin out of
21:05control and the Europeans retaliate in ways that focus on financial services and digital
21:10services, then you could start to see really nasty shocks to, say, the dollar or the U.S.
21:15government bond market that could really impact the economy overall.
21:19But at the moment, the paradox is that even as the political scene looks uglier, in fact,
21:25the economy continues to look quite reassuring.
21:27But isn't that extraordinary, Gillian?
21:30If the president would just put his pencil down on Greenland, if he would back off on tariffs,
21:35he could be in a situation with an economy really growing, and that would be a tremendous
21:40win for him.
21:41And he could still have all his side hustles, still making all his Trump money on the side.
21:46Absolutely.
21:47I mean, that is indeed the paradox.
21:48And one way to read what's happened with the reaction to tariffs and the fact that they
21:53haven't smashed the economy so far is that the underlying parts of the economy are actually
21:58quite strong.
21:59And so, in fact, if nothing was happening on the geopolitical front, you could be looking
22:03at a very optimistic picture right now because of these extraordinary tech and productivity
22:08changes.
22:09However, the big cloud is fear that geopolitical tensions are going to lead to some kind of financial
22:16crisis or real trade shock that would drag that down.
22:21Rohit, what do you think about that?
22:23Because the Supreme Court might not knock down Trump's tariffs, and he may move forward with
22:29Greenland.
22:30To Gillian's point, the shocks around the world, what could that look like economically?
22:36Well, there's two effects of this.
22:38One, I think Europeans, others, they do realize a lot of this is talk.
22:44Remember, Trump also said earlier he was going to, I don't know, annex Canada or the Panama
22:52Canal.
22:52A lot of that, of course, hasn't come true.
22:55But I think what is happening behind the scenes is a lot of countries, a lot of central banks,
23:01a lot of finance ministers, they're starting to drift away from the U.S. dollar in their
23:08foreign exchange holdings.
23:10They're starting to move away in terms of their own economic strategies as separate and
23:15apart from us.
23:17We saw the deal that Canada made with China last week.
23:20So I'm worried that the rest of the world is going to come up and chart a course on the
23:28economy that may leave a lot of our folks out of that.
23:32And I think that's a big mistake.
23:34All right.
23:36New topic.
23:36Jillian, Fed Chair Jay Powell is going to attend Supreme Court arguments this week on
23:42the president's efforts to fire Fed Governor Lisa Cook.
23:45This is highly, highly unusual.
23:48What do you make of it?
23:50Well, if you want yet another sign that American policy is looking extremely turbulent and capricious,
23:56then this is one more sign that you've got a tax on the Federal Reserve, which people are
24:02alarmed about from an investment perspective.
24:04Now, one of the things in Davos that has really alarmed the Europeans is that Treasury Secretary
24:10Besant was seen as being, in some ways, the grown up in the room for a long time that was
24:15keeping the financial markets calm by essentially doing some very clever footwork around the bond
24:20markets and the dollar.
24:21But the fact that he came out over the weekend and essentially supported the president's line
24:26on Greenland so strongly has really spooked a number of investors.
24:30And one of the most striking signs of this alarm is the fact that, once again, the gold
24:35price and the silver price is rocketing higher as people start to say, I'm not so sure that
24:42the dollar is going to be such a trustworthy asset in the long term.
24:45So when you see these kind of attacks on the Fed, attempts to undermine the independence
24:51of Fed policy, that simply adds to the feeling of people getting very nervous and looking
24:56for ways to hedge or to protect themselves against the downside risks around American
25:01assets at the moment.
25:02It's so funny you say that about Besant.
25:05A senior banker source called me today and said, we all thought Scott Besant would be the
25:11linebacker playing defense, and it turned out he was captain of the cheerleading squad.
25:16OK, Rohit, Powell is also under investigation himself right now.
25:21But could the DOJ's inquiry into him make it harder for Trump to replace Powell, which is
25:27what he ultimately wants to do?
25:29Well, I think we have this big Supreme Court oral argument this week, and this is really
25:35going to be something that could chart a lot, a path forward of what Trump gets to do with
25:41the Fed.
25:42This is going to be tricky because Fed and central bank independence, it's not enshrined in law.
25:50But we know that Trump and the White House want full control over it, not just because of
25:56interest rates, but it is another way to be able to reward friends and punish enemies.
26:02So right now, I think it's already having its effect.
26:06I think independence is largely done.
26:09There are now Federal Reserve governors who have to worry that the White House will launch
26:14a criminal investigation on them if they do not play ball.
26:19I think this is going to be just another way that regardless of what this court case says,
26:25every single person taking those votes on interest rates knows there is someone
26:30hovering and watching them.
26:33It might not be enshrined in law, Rohit, and I know we're out of time, but I'm going to
26:37bet Jillian agrees with me.
26:39It might not be enshrined in law, but it's hugely important to bond investors and the
26:45bond market.
26:46And last I checked, that's more important to Donald Trump than the law is.
26:51All right, gang, thank you for joining me tonight.
26:53We're out of time.
26:54Jillian, thank you for waking up this early.
26:56I know how busy things are in Davos.
26:58It's wall to wall out there.
26:59When we return, lawmakers voted to release the Epstein files and the president, speaking
27:05of laws, signed it into law.
27:07But where are they?
27:08We are one month past the deadline and less than 1% of it has been released.
27:15Why Republicans on the Hill are staying very, very quiet about the delay.
27:19That's next.
27:23We are now one month past the deadline for the Justice Department to release the Epstein
27:28files.
27:29Remember those?
27:30Well, we didn't forget about them.
27:31Less than 1% have actually been published since then.
27:35And last week, the Justice Department said it made, quote, substantial progress on reviewing
27:40the materials, but said nothing about when they would actually be released.
27:45However, some of the Republican lawmakers who actually pushed for transparency, they appear
27:50to have moved on from the situation.
27:53Colorado representative Lauren Boebert told the following to Politico, quote, I don't give
27:57a rip about Epstein.
27:59There's so many other things we need to be working on.
28:01I've done what I had to do for Epstein.
28:03Talk to somebody else about that.
28:05It is no longer in my hands, end quote.
28:08Barbara McQuaid, a veteran federal prosecutor and former U.S. attorney for the Eastern District
28:12of Michigan, joined us.
28:14Barb, I need this explained.
28:16It is a month past the deadline and almost none of the files, almost none of the files have
28:23been released.
28:24The DOJ claims it's working on it.
28:26Like, what are the legal consequences, right?
28:28Congress votes, the president signs it into law, and then it just doesn't happen.
28:31How does this work?
28:33Yeah, you know, it reminds me, Steph, an awful lot of the TikTok law that was passed by Congress
28:39went into place a year ago.
28:42It required TikTok to divest from its parent by dance, and it didn't.
28:47And Donald Trump has just sort of unilaterally kept extending that deadline.
28:52In the same way here, there's no real consequence for the failure of the Justice Department to
28:58comply with this law.
28:59Not only were they supposed to have produced all of the documents by December 19th, 15 days
29:04after that, they were supposed to provide a log that explained any categories of documents
29:10that were withheld and explaining who was behind the redaction bars to Congress.
29:15They haven't done that either.
29:17I think Donald Trump is just gaming on the theory that who's going to make him?
29:23Congress?
29:24The remedy for refusal, I suppose, would be impeachment.
29:28And that just seems like a bridge too far these days.
29:31OK, well, do this math for me.
29:33Back in July, when the DOJ and the FBI released a memo, it said that they had done an exhaustive
29:40review of all the documents.
29:42Yet last week, they said they now have 500 reviewers, including 80 lawyers from the criminal
29:50division that are now involved.
29:52What do you make of how this process has unfolded?
29:56It's it's just been a mess.
29:57You know, it's either a reflection of incompetence or duplicity.
30:04They said they had it under control months ago.
30:07One of the things that has been so surprising to me is that they said they received something
30:12like an additional two million documents or some number like that from the Southern District
30:17of New York after the deadline had passed.
30:20That, again, strikes me as highly unusual because of the fact that Ghislaine Maxwell actually
30:26went to trial.
30:27And so before a defendant goes to trial, you need to gather and review all of the documents
30:33because the defendant is entitled to receive any material that is potentially exonerating
30:39to them.
30:39And so the fact that they didn't review it would not make sense to me before the trial.
30:46If they did review it, why was that not disclosed to the Justice Department immediately back
30:51in the summer when they were gathering these materials together?
30:54It just doesn't make sense.
30:55And I think that what really needs to happen is if members of Congress are not going to
31:00continue to pressure the Justice Department to release them, then I think the public needs
31:04to.
31:05OK, well, can you explain this one?
31:07Because Congressman Ro Khanna and Thomas Massey, who have been leading this whole thing, are
31:12now requesting the appointment of a special master.
31:14Essentially, to police how the White House is releasing these files.
31:18To your very point, either it's really sloppy or duplicitous.
31:22And the Justice Department says they don't have the standing to do so.
31:26Can you explain what's going on here?
31:29Yeah, it is an unusual request.
31:31But of course, nothing about this case is usual.
31:34In the district court case that oversaw this, the grand jury investigation, there has been
31:42some litigation there that has occurred, including these members of Congress asking the judge to
31:48appoint this special master to review the documents.
31:51It would be highly unusual to do that.
31:54We've got a statute that requires the production.
31:57And the DOJ is in violation of that statute.
32:01It seems to me more likely that the members of Congressman, Congressman Khanna, Congressman
32:08Massey, may need to file a separate lawsuit to seek the enforcement of that statute.
32:14What they're trying to do is sort of bootstrap this prior case where the judge is overseeing
32:21the grand jury production to get it to comply with the statute, I don't know that they're
32:26going to have standing to do that in this case.
32:28But I think they might if they file their own lawsuit.
32:31I think, of course, the hazards there is that could take a lot more time.
32:35Barb, we are out of time.
32:37And maybe that's a blessing because what I really wanted was your best educated guess
32:40of what we have a higher probability of getting.
32:43Ghislaine Maxwell with a commuted sentence or these files.
32:47And I don't actually think I want to know what your answer is.
32:50Barb, it is great to see you.
32:51I hope you come back soon.
32:52Thanks, sir.
32:53When we return, the president's so-called board of peace is drawing serious skepticism
32:59from the price of admission to the list of leaders who are invited or not invited to
33:03join, how this could truly shake up the world order.
33:07We have so much to get to right after the break.
33:14OK, of the many things I wanted to talk to you about when I was away, this is high on
33:19the list.
33:20We have got to talk about the president's board of peace.
33:24It was initially approved by the United Nations to oversee solutions to the Israel-Hamas conflict.
33:29But there are some big questions about what the purpose actually is.
33:34According to a draft charter for the proposed group seen by Bloomberg, quote,
33:37the Trump administration is asking countries that want a permanent spot on Trump's board of peace to contribute at least
33:46a billion bucks.
33:47Trump would serve as its inaugural chairman and he would decide who's invited.
33:53Bloomberg also reports, quote,
34:00Michael McFaul is back with us to discuss.
34:03He's, of course, the former U.S. ambassador to Russia and MSNOW international affairs analyst.
34:09Michael, what do you think about this?
34:14Crazy town.
34:16Absolutely absurd.
34:18Not in America's national interest.
34:20Doesn't advance our security or our prosperity or our values.
34:25It seems to be a plot, a program to advance Mr.
34:30Trump.
34:30And I'm using Mr.
34:31on purpose.
34:32Mr.
34:32Trump's personal interests.
34:35It's very it's not clear what the money is going to be used for.
34:38It's all vague.
34:40And on top of it all, he invited Putin to join Putin, our alleged enemy, who's about to annex Greenland.
34:48If we don't do it first, he's now inviting Putin to join the peace committee, the peace board.
34:54It just makes no sense.
34:55And it'll go away after he's no longer president.
34:58I think it'd be very imprudent for any foreign leader to join.
35:02Does it make no sense or does it make perfect sense, given who Donald Trump is and what he wants
35:07to do?
35:08There's concerns that he wants to basically set up a rival or a replacement to the United Nations, except he's
35:14going to control it.
35:17Well, that could very well be his personal preferences.
35:20That's a good point.
35:21Whenever I think about foreign policy, I think about the American national interest.
35:26I don't think about Trump's personal interests.
35:28And that, you know, that's what the reporting says.
35:31He wants an alternative to the United Nations.
35:33But let's just be clear.
35:35If we're going it alone, we're acting like a unilateral imperialist all over the world.
35:41Who is going to want to join a club with us?
35:45With President Trump or Mr. Trump, if it's after his presidency, nobody's going to want to play with us.
35:51Nobody's going to want to be on our team.
35:53And that's why this will be much ado about nothing.
35:56Not necessarily right now.
35:57Right now, there's going to be coercion.
36:00Bullies get their way in the short term.
36:02But in the long term, nobody's going to want to be a part of this.
36:06And by the way, I want to remind everybody, we may be pulling out of the United Nations, right?
36:11Trump just did that a couple of weeks ago.
36:13By the way, he pulled out of 40 multilateral organizations.
36:17And it was barely a blip on the screen because there's so much other news.
36:21But he may want to pull out of United Nations organizations and other multilateral organizations
36:27and create his own club.
36:29But nobody else does.
36:30Nobody else is going to follow him to join this club.
36:33But let's go back to what you said in the middle.
36:35On one hand, we're saying nobody else is going to follow.
36:37Or are they?
36:39Because they're pressured into doing so.
36:41And they don't want to be on the wrong side of the United States or really on the wrong side
36:45of Donald Trump.
36:47Those are two very different things.
36:49I'm glad you phrased it that way.
36:50They don't want to be on the wrong side of Donald Trump.
36:53And we see that all over the world.
36:56Leaders, especially from weak countries, feel the coercive power of President Trump.
37:02And they have to try to get along.
37:03With strong countries, by the way, no coercion, right?
37:06Russia, China, they can do whatever they want.
37:08The weak countries have to get along.
37:10But they'll only do it for as long as they have to.
37:14And the minute he is no longer president, this thing falls apart.
37:17And therefore, I think they're just going to be hedging their bets, playing along, talking about committees, talking about future
37:24payments.
37:25But I think most leaders in the world, there'll be a few that will want to pal around with President
37:31Trump.
37:31But most leaders of the world want to be part of the current international community, the current United Nations, and
37:39hopefully see that someday the United States, not Mr. Trump, the United States might come back to that old international
37:47system as well.
37:48But in the meantime, they'll be pressured or coerced into coughing up a billion dollars that he'll control because he
37:55would reportedly have the power to remove members, designate his own successor as chairman.
38:00And again, these other countries might detest it, but they're weaker than the United States.
38:06And if he says pay me a billion dollars, they just may do it.
38:12Well, let's see.
38:13I mean, the weakest ones with money will, right?
38:15So you think about the oil exporters in the Middle East.
38:18They have cordial relations with the president.
38:21I can see them going along.
38:24If you're a middle power, you're a great power, you have any ability not to do it, they're not going
38:28to be a part of it.
38:29But the interesting category will be those that are very weak, that have no choice, but also can't afford to
38:36give a billion dollars.
38:38I think you will see a lot of drama about those kind of countries.
38:41I just want to read this one quote then that The Atlantic wrote.
38:45This seems like Trump is sort of upending the post-World War II world order.
38:49They write, Americans are entering the most dangerous world they have known since World War II, one that will make
38:56the Cold War look like child's play and the post-Cold War look like paradise.
39:03We're almost out of time, but I had to share this quote.
39:05Do you agree?
39:08I worry that we're going there, in part because we're just going alone.
39:13Remember, during the Cold War, we had lots of allies.
39:15We had multilateral institutions.
39:16The president wants to go it alone, and if we go it alone, we will lose the 21st century great
39:23power competition with China, first and foremost.
39:26But I'm cautiously optimistic that we'll come back.
39:29This is a temporary moment, and eventually we'll get back to playing a role, a constructive role, in the international
39:36order, which we, after all, created in 1945.
39:39It was the United States of America that created this system.
39:43We shouldn't abandon it now.
39:45Ambassador, professor, thank you for joining us.
39:48Thank you for making us smarter.
39:49Sure.
39:50When we return, people across the country honor the life and legacy of civil rights leader Dr. Martin Luther King
39:57Jr. today.
39:58But the most defining moments of that era may not be reaching the nation's future leaders, America's youth.
40:05This is an important, important conversation.
40:08We're getting into it next.
40:13The last thing before we go tonight, I want to recognize this important day.
40:18Our nation is remembering Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
40:22Marches and tributes were held nationwide earlier today in honor of the slain civil rights leader.
40:27In his work, he championed equality and nonviolent activism in the face of racial discrimination in the 1960s.
40:34A wreath was laid by politicians and faith leaders at Dr. King's memorial in Washington, D.C.
40:40On this, the 41st observation of MLK Day, Axios writes the following.
40:47The civil rights era is losing its grip on young Americans.
40:50They point out that younger Americans are now several generations removed from the era's defining moments,
40:56and less than half of our states now require comprehensive teachings of it in school.
41:01So during this very challenging moment in our nation's history, it is more important than ever that we remember and
41:08share the teachings of Dr. King.
41:10And I just want to close tonight by sharing what has been my favorite quote from this extraordinary man.
41:17Darkness.
41:18Darkness cannot drive out darkness.
41:21Only light can do that.
41:22Hate cannot drive out hate.
41:24Only love can do that.
41:28So let's be the light and do our best to love one another as we continue into this new and
41:35challenging year.
41:37Let's not just stand in the light.
41:39Let's be the light.
41:40And on that very important note, I wish you a very good night.
41:45From all of us here at MS Now, thanks for staying up late.
41:49I'll see you at the end of tomorrow.
41:58I'll see you at the end of tomorrow.