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FunTranscript
00:00Hello and welcome to another episode of Catching Up with the Royals with me, Emily Andrews.
00:05And me, Richard Coles. This is the podcast that takes you beyond the headlines and lifts the lid on what
00:11life is really like behind palace walls.
00:13Although at one time did have to buy him a drink. He didn't buy me a drink.
00:17Hey, hey, hey, hey, more on that please.
00:19This week we'll be pulling back the proverbial curtain on the inner workings of the so-called firm,
00:25arguably one of the most lucrative companies in the world, from which royal earns the most?
00:30The king.
00:31He is the first billionaire monarch.
00:33Doesn't hurt if you are exempt from inheritance tax.
00:37Two, the act of quitting the family business.
00:39What does the world owe you if all of a sudden you've handed back your crown?
00:42We'll be uncovering exactly how the House of Windsor is run and makes its money.
00:52Well, here we all are again, catching up with the royals.
00:56Now, Prince Philip famously referred to it not as a family, but a firm.
01:02Do you think that was apt?
01:05I think so. I think for two reasons, really.
01:08One, the monarch is like the CEO, the chief executive, and effectively runs everything.
01:15He or she, any person within the firm, be they working royal, member of the family or courtier, answers to
01:22the monarch.
01:23And actually, I think it's apt that Philip coined it because he was the arch moderniser.
01:27He was a real moderniser in the royal family of the 20th century.
01:32And I think that what's interesting about the firm is that they are, in some respects,
01:39I mean, we're in the age of influencer, aren't we?
01:41But aren't they the ultimate influencer?
01:43Aren't they the ultimate brand?
01:45So it's really important to make a distinction between royals, which we talk about, obviously, catching up with the royals.
01:51That's all of them.
01:52That's all of them. They're all welcome here.
01:53Princess Michael of Kent.
01:55Yes, Zara Tindall.
01:56She is a royal.
01:57But the working royals are funded by the Sovereign Grant.
02:00Now, the monarch is funded in three ways.
02:02He or she has their own private inherited income.
02:06Not, they don't have to pay income tax.
02:08So because of that, I think Charles is the first billionaire British monarch ever,
02:12because he didn't have to pay inheritance tax on his mother's inheritance.
02:16So they're funded by personal wealth, the Duchy of Lancaster and the Sovereign Grant.
02:21The heir to the throne, the Prince of Wales, is funded by the Duchy of Cornwall.
02:24Hang on, Duchy of Cornwall, Duchy of Lancaster, what are those?
02:27Yes, those are two separate duchies.
02:29So the monarch is also the Duke of Lancaster.
02:32Queen Elizabeth was the Duke of Lancaster.
02:34And they're separate duchies.
02:36They are huge land-owning entities.
02:41Now, the Sovereign Grant is a percentage of the Crown Estate.
02:45So the Sovereign Grant is paid to the monarch that funds all the work of the royal family.
02:49So the Crown Estate are those holdings that belong not to the individual, the king, Charles,
02:54but to the crown, to the king and his successors.
02:57Absolutely.
02:58And a percentage of the profits goes to pay for all the working royals and their travel,
03:05the job that they do, basically, for Britain, PLC.
03:08Two other words for you.
03:10Corporation tax?
03:12I don't know whether the Crown Estate pays corporation tax.
03:15That's a really good question.
03:18If you start from the notion that actually anything held by the Crown is exempt from taxation,
03:23because it's HMRC, isn't it?
03:25It's the Crown that does the taxing.
03:28Exactly.
03:28So the Crown taxing itself does sort of have to be by its own volition,
03:32because that's how it works, right?
03:35Yeah.
03:35Everything else that they do, even when they're going, say, they're visiting India
03:39or they're visiting the US, then that's paid for by us via the Sovereign Grant.
03:43Now, the working royals are the king, the queen.
03:46Come on, Richard.
03:47Who else?
03:48The Prince of Princess Wales.
03:50Yes.
03:51The Princess Royal.
03:52Yes.
03:53The Duke of Duchess of Edinburgh.
03:55Well done, Sophie and Edward.
03:56Edward, there's three more.
04:00Princess Alexandra.
04:02The Duke of Kent.
04:04Yes.
04:04I can't, I've run out of royals.
04:06And the Duke and Dutch to Gloucester.
04:07Of course, yeah.
04:08And then, of course, for the Prince of Wales,
04:10the heir to the throne is funded by the Duchy of Cornwall.
04:14All those biscuits.
04:14All those biscuits, yeah.
04:16Actually, fun fact, you're absolutely right to say about Dutch originals,
04:20but that was set up by Charles as Prince of Wales,
04:24but now it's wholly owned by Waitrose.
04:27Oh, really?
04:27Yeah.
04:28But the brand and the association endures?
04:31The brand and the association endures.
04:32It was set up in partnership, I think, between Charles and Waitrose,
04:37and then any profits from the range were given to the Prince's Trust.
04:42Oh, I see.
04:43So it's actually, it's profits going to charity.
04:45Yeah.
04:46Profits still go to charity, even though it's now owned by Waitrose.
04:48We're talking about kind of large sums of money here,
04:50but I just want to say on the sovereign grant,
04:52before people think that that's actually kind of tax
04:55that could otherwise, you know, be spent on hospitals, schools and roads,
04:58which indeed it could be,
04:59but actually the sovereign grant comes out of the income of the Crown Estates, right?
05:03So that's holdings that belong not to Charles, but to the monarchy,
05:09and the sovereign grant is a percentage of the profits from that.
05:13That's absolutely right.
05:14Right.
05:14And that was an arrangement that goes back historically.
05:17I know they tinker with it from time to time.
05:19Yeah.
05:19So George Osborne, when he was chancellor back in, I think, like 2011, 2012,
05:24it used to be the civil list.
05:26So effectively, the UK government would dollop a whole load of cash
05:29to the keeper of the privy purse,
05:31who is like the chief accountant at Monarchy HQ.
05:34Funnily, the principals, the royal family, call Buckingham Palace Monarchy HQ.
05:38They do call it Monarchy HQ.
05:40So the government used to, the UK government used to give a whole load of cash
05:44to the keeper of the privy purse, which would fund all their work.
05:49And then under the Cameron Coalition government between the Tories and the Lib Dems,
05:55George Osborne was chancellor.
05:57And he actually did the royals a real favour because he said that a percentage of the crown estate,
06:04which, as you've absolutely said, is held, it's kind of like it's crown lands,
06:08but all the money goes to the UK taxpayer.
06:11And now a percentage goes to the royals to fund their work.
06:15So you could say, in a sense, that there's sort of self-funding.
06:18If you were looking to...
06:19Oh, no.
06:20No, I don't think you can say that.
06:22Quite the opposite.
06:23Well, I'm just saying if you were looking as a way...
06:25And what I'm saying is it's a highly political debate,
06:27and indeed a politicised debate.
06:29And some people would argue that you do get value for money from the royal family,
06:33some would say, or the monarchy, and some would say you don't.
06:36And that's a very polarised view,
06:37and I'm just trying to figure out what the arguments are on either side of that.
06:41I think how they're funded and whether they provide good value for money,
06:45in my opinion, are two slightly different debates.
06:48And the other complications, of course,
06:50is how much of this is because it's not unreasonable to pay people to do a job?
06:54In other words, how much of this is in return for services rendered,
06:56which is if you're head of a state,
06:58it involves things like palaces and security and that kind of thing.
07:01Or how much of this is people just getting an easy ride from the Treasury and HMRC,
07:06not paying inheritance tax, for example, if you're the sovereign?
07:08Well, I think, are they worth it?
07:11Are they value for money?
07:13Depends on who you ask.
07:15And I think it often depends on your view of politics.
07:19I think it probably depends on your age.
07:21We tend to be more supportive of monarchy, I think, as we get older.
07:25Certainly younger people, all the popularity polls are that, you know,
07:29people don't support the monarchy as much when they are.
07:31God save the Queen!
07:33I wish the King now, I didn't say aye.
07:35It's really bloody complicated.
07:37And that's one of the reasons why it works for them,
07:40is they don't make it, it's not transparent.
07:42It's not transparent.
07:43And they want it to be complicated,
07:44and they want so that they,
07:46we don't delve too much into how much money they really do have.
07:50I've got a quiz for you before we go.
07:53Richard, how many official roles working for the family
07:57have been related to the lavatory?
08:00Oh, my word.
08:01I know, you're bringing the tone down, aren't I?
08:03I'm going to have to think about that.
08:05Back with you soon.
08:10Welcome back to Catching Up With The Royals.
08:13For the break, I asked you,
08:14how many official roles working for the royal family
08:17have involved lavatories?
08:19Wait for it.
08:21And the answer is two.
08:23Number two.
08:24Oh, Richard!
08:26You have to bring the tone down, but I love it.
08:28I love it.
08:29Of course it had to be a number two.
08:30Yes, and that is relevant.
08:32Okay, so the two roles are, if you hadn't worked out already,
08:36groom of the stool and keeper of the royal bedchamber stools.
08:41Now, Richard, do you know what the groom of the stool had to do?
08:45Well, I was hoping it was someone who had to do with seating arrangements,
08:48but I guess we're on a different stool here, aren't we?
08:50I think it's a different stool.
08:51I'm going to leave it for you to explain.
08:53Okay, so the groom of the stool would literally be there
08:56to wipe the monarch's derriere.
08:59They would be there to wipe the monarch's bottom,
09:01should he or she chose.
09:03And I think also, in all seriousness, it was an important job
09:06because you also, it was to do with the health of the monarch,
09:08so you had to inspect the stool and make sure that it all looked appropriate
09:12and that they didn't have an upset tummy and they weren't ill.
09:14But whoever held that job was actually a very, very important courtier
09:20because he or she would be incredibly close to the monarch
09:24and was party to all their private thoughts in a very intimate environment.
09:29So in the days of, say, a Tudor monarchy, for example,
09:31where the monarch was the sun, the moon and everything,
09:34if you had the ear of Henry VIII as well as the bottom of Henry VIII,
09:39you had a very, very direct route to power.
09:42Yeah, definitely. And also, I think there's something, isn't there, to be said.
09:45You know, I don't want to speak for you, Richard,
09:47but when you're literally naked or partially clothed,
09:50you are quite vulnerable, aren't you?
09:52And I think there has to be a sense of real intimacy
09:54between someone who is helping you in that, you know,
10:00not that I've ever had this.
10:01You know, it's quite a vulnerable thing.
10:03Yeah. But also the fact that the health of the monarch
10:06was so closely related to the health of the nation.
10:09Yeah. So if the monarch's poos were looking a bit off,
10:12that might affect the value of the pound.
10:14Yeah, totally. Yeah.
10:15Interesting.
10:15Because the monarch needed to live because he or she,
10:20and it's the same now, you see it with people around the court,
10:23you know, of the monarch and the air in waiting,
10:27everyone's kind of thinking, how long have they got?
10:29Because if they go, my position goes too.
10:32Which is why the second role,
10:35keeper of the royal bedchamber stools, was also important,
10:37because that role involved making,
10:40putting out all the chamber pots for high ranking
10:42and official guests.
10:44And if you think, again,
10:45going back to kind of medieval Tudor times,
10:47when obviously there was letter writing,
10:50huge amount of letter writing,
10:51but the real way that diplomacy,
10:53well, still like now,
10:55was effected was through face to face.
10:58It's access.
10:59Access.
10:59Yeah.
11:00Mind you, a bittersweet feeling to be told.
11:03Well, the good news is you've been appointed
11:04to a very senior position at court.
11:06The bad news is bring your mittens.
11:09Yeah, I know.
11:11But there are other ones.
11:12It's so interesting that there's another job,
11:15the page of the back stairs.
11:17Billy Backstairs Billy.
11:19Yes, Backstairs Billy.
11:20Now, the page of the back stairs,
11:21it sounds like you would rather be page of the main stairs,
11:25but the back stairs was where a lot of the unofficial business
11:28was transacted.
11:29So the back stairs where people could get in and out,
11:32up and down,
11:33in and out of the sovereign or the prince's chamber
11:35without being seen,
11:37without being on public display.
11:39So that's quite significant.
11:40I remember visiting a stately home
11:42and there was a suite that was reserved for the heir to the title
11:45and that had a separate entrance which went to a side door
11:49so the heir to the title could conduct his,
11:53invariably in that case, his business
11:55without it being confused with the official business of the house.
11:59Do you see what I mean?
11:59Yeah.
12:00It's interesting, isn't it?
12:00It's very clever.
12:01Yeah.
12:01And then, of course, there's always the kind of,
12:03there's roles like the royal shoe wearer.
12:06I mean, and that's sort of that,
12:07I don't know whether that happens with King Charles,
12:09but that certainly happened with the late queen,
12:12Queen Elizabeth.
12:13Angela Kelly, otherwise known as AK-47,
12:17because she was, and she still is pretty formidable,
12:19although she's retired now.
12:20She was the late queen's dresser for many, many years.
12:23A very impressive liver puddling.
12:24And she had the same size shoe as the queen,
12:28the same size foot, sorry, as the queen.
12:30And she would wear in her shoes.
12:33Well, that makes sense,
12:33because if you're the queen and you're on your feet all day,
12:35you could be literally put out of business if you've got a blister
12:40or if you, you know, you need that,
12:42that's an indispensable service.
12:44Absolutely.
12:46If you're the queen and you're, or the king,
12:48and your time is minuted to the second to the minute,
12:51and they do, their schedules are 7.43, 8.22.
12:55You know, if your shoes are rubbing and you're in pain,
12:58that's no good for anyone.
12:59I'm fascinated by Angela Kelly to have had that degree of access
13:03and also that degree of intimacy.
13:05And clearly, is affection the right word?
13:07I'm not sure.
13:08Yes, I think so.
13:09It's such an interesting role, isn't it?
13:11And also, how interesting that she's described as a weapon
13:15by her nickname at court.
13:16Yes, AK-47.
13:18Well, the story goes that while she was still working
13:22for the late queen, she was allowed to publish two books,
13:28the first of which was a book about royal dresses.
13:32And then I think the then Prince of Wales, Prince Charles,
13:35was very worried about what she might publish after the queen died
13:40because she literally had access to all the secrets.
13:43She used to watch television with the late queen.
13:45She was her confidant.
13:46She would know who the queen voted for on Strictly.
13:48Yeah, she would know.
13:49I bet she'd say you.
13:51I'm certain she wouldn't.
13:52But she would know.
13:54She would know who, if the queen put a bet,
13:56which horse she'd been betting on.
13:57She would know who, what the queen thought about Meghan.
14:02So...
14:02Also intimacy, knickers and bras and all that stuff.
14:05Yes, all of that kind of thing.
14:07When the queen was unwell, Angela would go and personally care for her.
14:11She did her hair.
14:13She helped her with her make-up.
14:14And so when a monarch dies, everybody around the monarch,
14:19groom in the stall or not, is out on their...
14:21Exactly, it's out on their hair.
14:22So Charles made sure he gave her a nice house.
14:26I don't know what's happening.
14:27I mean, there's a story that Backstairs Billy,
14:28who was so loyal to the queen mother and keeper of all the secrets,
14:31knew where all the bodies were buried,
14:32once the queen mother died, he was booted out to a flat in Kennington, I think.
14:36I'm sure that's true.
14:39Allegedly.
14:40Allegedly.
14:40Allegedly.
14:41Well, he's dead now, isn't he?
14:42But, I mean, he knew a lot.
14:45That can make you very powerful.
14:47Yes, knowledge is power.
14:49Yeah.
14:49So I think it's interesting that now, of course, we don't have...
14:53You know, famously, when Queen Camilla became queen
14:56and was crowned a couple of years ago,
14:58she let it be known that she wouldn't have ladies-in-waiting.
15:01And she now has companions.
15:03And Kay Middy, our friend, Kay Middy, the Princess of Wales, everybody.
15:07Her Royal Highness.
15:08Don't clutch your pearls too much.
15:09Her Royal Highness Catherine, the Princess of Wales.
15:11She doesn't have ladies-in-waiting either.
15:13Yeah, interesting.
15:14The other thing, of course, is if you've got all these people,
15:17like, wearing in your shoes or looking at your stools or whatever,
15:20that's payroll, isn't it?
15:22Payroll.
15:22How rich do you need to be?
15:24I mean, we've talked about...
15:25So the Sovereign Grant covers some of this,
15:27but what about the personal wealth of the Senior Royals of Sovereign?
15:30Let me look up my list.
15:31Let me look up my list.
15:32I'm glad you asked me that.
15:33So the royal rich list, who do you think tops it?
15:36The king.
15:37Of course.
15:38He is the first billionaire monarch.
15:40Now, that's partly because of that awful word, inflation.
15:44It's also partly through very savvy investments
15:46throughout the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s.
15:49And also, I think it's partly thanks to Prince Philip because Philip and Charles started treating
15:55the royal estate, their personal income, their personal lands as businesses, the firm.
16:03And so then they started charging market rent.
16:06It wasn't just a feudal, oh, I'll just let you live in this house if you mow my field for
16:10me.
16:11They professionalised it.
16:12They professionalised it.
16:13They absolutely, they professionalised the business of being a monarch.
16:17And so Charles is estimated at 1.8 billion.
16:20Can I just add to this?
16:21It doesn't hurt if you are exempt from inheritance tax.
16:25I was just about to give you that.
16:26I beg your pardon.
16:26Richard, we need to talk about inheritance tax.
16:28I think we do need to talk about inheritance tax.
16:30Very quickly, I'm going to run through the rest.
16:31But then we need to explain to everybody about the inheritance tax issue.
16:35So Prince William, as the heir to the throne, Duchy of Cornwall, he's estimated at 90 million.
16:39Princess Anne, I didn't know this.
16:40Her personal fortune is approximately 50 million.
16:44That's largely through inherited estates and wealth and investments.
16:48And then Prince Harry and Meghan.
16:49Again, we don't know how much really they're worth because we don't know what any of them are worth.
16:53But Harry and Meghan combined private net worth is commonly estimated around 47 million pounds.
17:00But the monarch doesn't have to pay inheritance tax.
17:03This is a very significant perk, isn't it?
17:06Because it's 40% or something, isn't it, inheritance tax on most people.
17:10I know I inherited a little money from my mother and a chunk of that went to the tax ban.
17:15And if that hadn't gone to the tax ban, I would be wearing a tiara right now.
17:21Well, I wouldn't, but you know what I mean.
17:23I do.
17:23I mean, is it fair?
17:24I would say, I suppose the problem is, is that if the monarch was subject to inheritance tax, then would
17:30they go bankrupt?
17:31Well, and it is, there's a sort of, they use a language, which sounds like an exception, which is sovereign
17:36to sovereign, right?
17:37So it's only the succeeding sovereign who enjoys that benefit.
17:42Yeah.
17:43The other thing that's striking about this is that you do get this right, they do pay a certain amount
17:47of tax, but they seem to decide themselves.
17:50I would very much like to speak to HMRC and say, I've decided to pay you this amount of tax
17:54this year.
17:55Okay, with you, thank you very much.
17:57Bye.
17:57It's not going to work, is it?
17:58Well, it's interesting because when Charles was Prince of Wales, he was quite open in the Duchy of Cornwall and
18:06used to say how much income tax he paid.
18:08He didn't tell us how they came about the calculations, but he publicly said how much they paid.
18:14William, as Duke of Cornwall and Prince of Wales, is not telling us how much income tax he paid.
18:19Isn't that interesting?
18:20Because that would be, that's a counterintuitive fact, because you imagine more transparency rather than less transparency would be the
18:26direction.
18:26I wonder if it's part of this, certainly with William, I wonder if it's part of this not wanting to
18:34appear rich.
18:35I can't believe that any royal would be diddling HMRC because that would just be, I mean, the only person
18:40who's above prosecution is the monarch.
18:43It just gives you a formidable tax advantage.
18:45It does give you a formidable tax advantage if dad, if you're being prosecuted in the name of your dad.
18:52But I can't.
18:53Inspectors of Decree.
18:54I can't believe that all those civil servants and the keeper of the privy purse would allow them to get
18:59the tax bill wrong.
19:00But I do wonder, I do feel that William wants to be kind of like a man of the people
19:05and wants to be seen as another ordinary type of guy.
19:09Does publishing the millions he has to pay in tax?
19:14Because how much is he worth, again, do we think?
19:15Well, we don't know.
19:16We worked about 20 to 25 million a year in income from the Duchy of Cornwall.
19:19Yeah, I mean, that's a huge amount of money, 20 million pounds a year, Richard.
19:25I mean, imagine how many tiaras both of us could buy with that.
19:27There's a caveat to this, isn't it?
19:28Which is making, I remember a neighbour of mine got really exercised when she found out that the cost of
19:34the coronation was about 70 million quid.
19:36And she said, why can't the king pay for that?
19:38And it seems to be quite obviously why.
19:40That's a head of state thing.
19:42Yeah.
19:42King isn't crowning himself for his own amusement.
19:45He's doing it because as head of state, that's what you do.
19:48It certainly seems to be right that that should be paid by the state.
19:51But that's a useful confusion sometimes, isn't it?
19:53Because how would you always know how to distinguish between what is a function of state and what is a
19:59private benefit?
20:00It's hard to call that.
20:01But I mean, going back to what we were sort of saying before, are the royals worth it?
20:05You know, that 20 million pounds a year to William, I mean, it's just, he's the same age as me.
20:10I mean, I just kind of, my mind boggles.
20:11And don't forget, that's from the 20 million doesn't include the money he will get as part of the sovereign
20:18grants to be a working royal.
20:19But then another thing, and this is a hard thing, but I mean, I think all of us would want
20:22to have a distinguish between our private resources and the resources that came to us by virtue of what we
20:29do.
20:29And I don't, in principle, in principle, I don't think it sounds unreasonable that public stuff should be funded out
20:38of public money and private resources should not be lent on for that.
20:43I always liken the royals to, and there's that famous advert by Heineken, I don't think they do it anymore,
20:49but you know, Heineken, is it Heineken?
20:50And it reaches parts other beers cannot.
20:54And I always think the royal family is a bit like the royal Heineken, the royal beer, because they can
20:59do, they can achieve things.
21:01They can convene people and bring people together in a way that I don't think anyone else in the world
21:05can.
21:06Look at the Trump state visit last year.
21:08There was the Princess of Wales dressed in Trump's favourite colour, gold.
21:13The amount of gold on that table at the Windsor Castle banquet was amazing.
21:17He was having the time of his life in the unprecedented second state visit.
21:22I mean, he absolutely loved it.
21:24And the result of that, Richard, meant that we had less bad tariffs than the rest of Europe.
21:30And it meant that factories here didn't close.
21:34Soft power.
21:35Soft power.
21:35And it's very hard to do a profit and loss on that, isn't it?
21:37Because they're very hard to track those figures.
21:39But I always thought other people would say, how much is the monarchy worth in terms of bringing in a
21:43tourist pound or dollar or yen?
21:45Well, significant amount.
21:47It's very hard to get any precise figures about that.
21:49But I still think even if we didn't have a monarchy, the coffers of the Royal Collection Trust,
21:54which administer the opening of Holyrood House, Buckingham Palace and Windsor Castle,
21:57still think the tourists would come.
21:58King Charles or no King Charles?
22:00I've got a hypothetical.
22:01Go on.
22:02In the event that it was thought that perhaps we could manage perfectly well without a monarchy,
22:07and it was abolished and we formed a republic, which is perfectly doable.
22:10Whether it's wise or not is another question.
22:12Imagine the wrangling over who gets what.
22:16If the Windsors were to retire to private life, what would they take with them?
22:24Would the title in their art collection, their jewels, their land holdings, would that just go to the state?
22:31Or would they think, hang on, that was ours?
22:35I don't know.
22:35It's an interesting one.
22:36Well, some stuff is theirs personally, so...
22:39How do you untangle all that?
22:40Balmoral, Sandringham, Highgrove are all personal homes.
22:45Windsor Castle, Buckingham Palace, Kensington Palace are owned by the state.
22:49The Crown Jewels, locked up in the tower.
22:51They're owned by the crown.
22:52They're owned by the crown.
22:54I would say, isn't that the state?
22:57I've got another thing to tell you.
22:58Tell me.
22:59Right, so I've looked this up actually, and the British monarchy in cost is about £100 million a year.
23:06The other monarchies, European monarchies, about half.
23:09I know.
23:10Some much less than that, but I think Denmark and the Netherlands are the next alternative expense, and it's half
23:17that cost.
23:18Yeah.
23:19And they, I mean, they seem to live pretty high on the hog, but obviously our lot are super expensive,
23:23and that's partly to do with the splendour and the extent of their living.
23:28Wow, there's not enough transparency for us to know.
23:31Well, it's time to go for a break, but after the break we'll be asking the question,
23:35how do you actually quit the firm if you should choose to do so?
23:39Well, we'll come back to that.
23:40But we have a question for you to mull over also, and it's this.
23:43Is it true or false that the monarch requires no passport or driving licence?
23:51See you in a moment.
23:56Welcome back to Catching Up With The Royals.
23:58And a quick reminder that if you like what you hear and would like more content from us,
24:02then head to our social media channels.
24:05Search for Catching Up With The Royals.
24:07Now, before the break, the question was, true or false, the monarch requires a driving licence
24:12or passport?
24:13And the answer is, no, the monarch doesn't.
24:16Stopped by the cops, the monarch can say, no, no, no, be off with you.
24:21Stopped at immigration, no, no, no, be off with you.
24:22They're the fount of the monarch.
24:24It's the fount of all law.
24:26Doesn't need that stuff.
24:27The monarch is the law.
24:28Discuss.
24:30Anyway, look, we were talking about quitting the firm, Emily.
24:33If it is a firm, of course you have the right to hand in your notice.
24:38And it has happened, hasn't it?
24:39But it's never been a particularly smooth business.
24:43No.
24:44So obviously the most infamous was the monarch quitting the top job, Edward VIII in 1936.
24:54It does seem a bit bonkers now, doesn't it, to think about it?
24:57But I think you have to put yourself back 100 years.
25:00And, you know, the monarch, well, still is.
25:03The monarch is the head of the Church of England.
25:05But then, oh, sorry, yes, this is your...
25:07Point of order.
25:08Yeah, point of order.
25:08This is your domain.
25:10Talk to me about...
25:11Supreme Governor.
25:12Supreme Governor.
25:12Not the head of the Church.
25:13Sorry.
25:13Which is Jesus Christ.
25:15Okay, sorry.
25:15Supreme Governor.
25:16Supreme Governor.
25:17Small but important point.
25:18So Jesus Christ is the head.
25:20Yes.
25:21And the British monarch is...
25:24The Supreme Governor of the Church of England.
25:25Supreme Governor of the Church of England.
25:26Of course, after the breakaway from Rome by Henry VIII in the 16th century.
25:32It's so complicated.
25:33So complicated.
25:33There's like a ton of podcasts just to scratch the surface of that.
25:36And also, of course, but at that point he was still...
25:37He might have broken away from the Church, but he was not Church of England.
25:40Anyway, that was Elizabeth I.
25:42But we're not doing history.
25:43We're doing royals.
25:44That's very good.
25:44Thanks.
25:45You're welcome.
25:46The Elizabethan settlement.
25:47The Elizabethan settlement.
25:48And, of course, and then there was Edward VI.
25:50But...
25:50Really good.
25:51Yeah, I know.
25:52And Mariah and Mary.
25:53And, your neck of the woods, the Louisian martyrs, I think.
25:58Oh, the Lewis.
25:59Yes.
25:59The martyrs of Lewis.
26:00The martyrs, yeah.
26:01Anyway.
26:02Bonfire.
26:03I love a Lewis bonfire.
26:04Those of you who know, who know?
26:05You know.
26:06But, back to the Supreme Government of the Church of England, which was the monarch of Edward VIII.
26:12And, therefore, then, he couldn't marry a divorcee.
26:15So, he had to quit.
26:16I mean, the thing, the Church of England's doctrine at that time has changed now.
26:19It made it impossible for a divorcee to remarry if the person they'd originally been married to was still living.
26:25Not permitted.
26:26And so, the Archbishop of Canterbury said no way.
26:29It was hard to imagine just what a crisis this was, actually.
26:32It was an unthinkable thing that, all of a sudden, everyone had to think about.
26:36It was a big trauma for all concerned.
26:38I think the deal was either you give up Mrs. Simpson or you abdicate and marry Mrs. Simpson or you
26:46marry Mrs. Simpson more genetically, which means that she would not become queen.
26:51She would not become royal through the marriage.
26:55And he said no.
26:56And, presumably, he could have stayed being king and had her as a mistress, like every other monarch before him.
27:02Yeah.
27:03And, of course, the cat was sort of out of the bag now.
27:05And he upped the ante.
27:06But it's like one of those things, you know, situations, don't speak, don't tell.
27:10Yeah.
27:11People can kind of make their own arrangements.
27:13But as soon as you sort of make that explicit, then you have to tidy it all up.
27:16And, you know, you have to make a decision.
27:19It became official.
27:19And I think, I mean, there have been many books written, of course, famously, Wallace and Edward VIII are buried
27:29side by side in the grounds of Frogmore House, just by Frogmore Cottage, where another American married a British prince
27:41and went to live after their married life.
27:43I've always thought it was quite funny that Harry and Meghan went to live in Frogmore Cottage, which is very,
27:47very close to the graves.
27:50Almost as if there were an element of deliberation, whoever chose that for them.
27:54Well, do you know what, though?
27:55I broke the story that they were going to move to Frogmore Cottage.
27:58And, of course, at the time, everybody thought that they were going to move into one of the vacated apartments
28:04in Kensington Palace.
28:06Everyone thought they were going to live next door to Kate and William.
28:08And there was, I think, apartment.
28:10Kate and William have apartment 1A.
28:11And I think apartment 1A was being renovated.
28:12I mean, that was genuinely what was going to happen.
28:16But quite, I mean, we, as the journos, were always a bit late to the party.
28:19But what happened was Carrie and Meghan spent very little time at KP.
28:25They were living in Nottingham Cottage.
28:27And they didn't want to be, they disliked it so much that they rented a place near Soho Farmhouse in
28:33the Cotswolds.
28:34And they spent very little time at Kensington Palace.
28:36And then when they said they didn't want to move into apartment 1, somewhere had to be found for them.
28:41There's a whole episode we've got to do on why royals don't like living in official accommodation.
28:45Like the king and the queen don't want to live in Buckingham Palace.
28:48No.
28:48Nobody wants to live in Buckingham Palace.
28:50No one wants to live in BP.
28:51No.
28:51When, I think soon, this year maybe, we're going to get an updated audit of the money that's been spent
28:59from the Sovereign Grant that's been uplifted for the last, for the 10 years of resurfacing.
29:04It's going to be interesting to see how much it's cost.
29:09And we should go round it, Richard.
29:11I've never been there.
29:12Have you not?
29:13No.
29:13Oh, by the way, I hear that they are personally quite tight, that they might have all these mega millions,
29:20but they don't like spending their own money.
29:25Well, there's a great story about Queen Mary, who used to go to visit people.
29:30And if she came to visit, people used to have to hide all their bibelos away because if she liked
29:34something, she'd just expect it to be given to her.
29:36It's a royal favour.
29:37And she used to go to her shops when they were closed to the public and go, that's nice, that's
29:41nice.
29:41And somebody would go around after and wrap it up in brown paper and deliver it to Buckingham Palace.
29:45No.
29:46Yeah.
29:46I think that sense of entitlement still does happen.
29:50I heard this great story about Meghan that on the eve of the Queen's funeral, which was a Monday, she
29:59got very worried about gloves.
30:01Now, this is my opinion.
30:03This is what I was told.
30:04She got very worried about gloves.
30:05My opinion is because the gloves that she actually wore on the day of the Queen's funeral were elbow length.
30:09In fact, comparisons were made to Wallis Simpson, who was a very stylish lady, but also liked an elbow length
30:15glove.
30:15I was told that on the eve of the funeral, she got one of her people to ring one of
30:22the couple of the big French fashion houses that have stores on Regent Street and wanted them opened so that
30:30one of her minions could go and get some gloves.
30:33I think in the end, the keys couldn't be found or burger alarm codes or people couldn't be, you know,
30:38stretched.
30:39And so in the end, she didn't get whatever gloves.
30:42I think she wanted shorter gloves.
30:43I think she suddenly got, this is my personal opinion, I think she suddenly got really worried.
30:46But that sense of, oh, my goodness, I need gloves.
30:49I need gloves.
30:50They're the wrong gloves.
30:51Get me new gloves.
30:51Somebody go, go.
30:53It's quite, that optics is very problematic, isn't it?
30:57It's pop-stop.
30:57The thing is, you get used to the world being nice to you in about a day.
31:02The interesting thing is getting used to the world no longer caring about you.
31:05So when, you know, of course, Megan may sort of fret about her gloves, I don't know.
31:09But once you've stopped being the reason people are bothered about gloves, i.e. a member of the royal family,
31:15you need to really adjust very quickly, to trim very quickly to a world in which your caprices might not
31:23carry the weight that they did beforehand, right?
31:26So there's one thing about quitting, isn't it?
31:28All of a sudden, the world, what does the world owe you if all of a sudden you've handed back
31:31your crown?
31:31And I think that was the mistake that Harry and Meghan made, because they are trying to make their own
31:37money now, all well and good, well done then.
31:41But because they have literally bitten, publicly bitten the hand that fed them in terms of being so critical of
31:49the royals, that was the reason why everyone was interested in them.
31:52So whilst at the time them doing Oprah and doing the Netflix sort of, you know, speaking their truth and
31:58saying how victimised they were and how unfair it all was, was probably quite cathartic.
32:03And obviously we all lapped it up, didn't we?
32:05In the long run, it wasn't very sensible as a strategic move because they want people to buy what they
32:14are selling, be it Harry's life coaching or Meghan's jam.
32:17And if they've been, but, you know, if she wants us to buy what she's selling, we have to believe
32:26in her and we want to buy into her.
32:28And she's literally told us that she hated the one thing that we were interested in her for, being royal.
32:33But do you think the plan is that you shift from being interesting because you're a member of the British
32:36royal family to being interesting because you're kind of like the Kardashians,
32:40that there's a sort of another version of that, a sort of secular version of that, if you like, where
32:44people were interested in them for their own sake,
32:46rather than for them doing anything.
32:49Well, jam's nice.
32:50And I don't want to be horrible to either Meghan or Harry.
32:53And I think, you know, deprogramming from their weird life is obviously going to be complicated and difficult.
32:58We wish them the best, but I'm not sure how.
33:02Yeah, I think I do, really.
33:04I think I do, because, you know.
33:06I think we should.
33:07No, I think we should.
33:08I think with, I always think, I always call it the Emily Andrews Venn diagram.
33:12So you've got three circles.
33:14Okay.
33:14You've got one, are you with me?
33:15Are you with me?
33:16One circle is celebrity.
33:18Yeah.
33:19The next circle is, you know, history.
33:23Yeah.
33:23The bottom circle is the news.
33:26And in that middle, the middle of those three circles is the royal family.
33:29Yeah.
33:29So in a case, sort of to your point, if you take away the celebrity and you take away the
33:35news and you take away the history, what are the royal family?
33:38There isn't really much there.
33:39It's the combination of all those three things that make them so interesting, that makes them, you know, want us,
33:45us want to talk about them.
33:46And makes them being able to earn a living.
33:48And makes them earn a living.
33:49The kind of living they want to earn.
33:50But then when they are the working royals, sometimes they feel quite trapped.
33:55And sometimes they want to quit.
33:57And also the other thing I'd say in favour of Harry is I understand why as a father you would
34:03be concerned for the safety of your children.
34:04And if you walk away from the royal family and all of a sudden you no longer get that protection,
34:09nonetheless, interest may endure.
34:10And I can quite understand why you would have anxieties that your children might be targeted and that you would
34:16feel that perhaps a degree of security would be available to you for that.
34:20And it's those little things you walk away from and perhaps don't fully anticipate what that's going to look like
34:26and what that's going to cost you and how different your life is going to be.
34:29Because if you've got security and if you've got stuff that comes with that, you know, kind of private jets
34:35or whatever, that's not a cheap life, is it?
34:39It's a very expensive life. I don't know how much you need to earn to live that sort of a
34:42life, but it's pretty hard to do that, I think.
34:44I think the security bill...
34:45Take more than jam.
34:46No, for sure. And I think that's...
34:48Or spread.
34:49That's why. Or spread.
34:50Spread.
34:51Spread.
34:53Or the sparkling...
34:56No, Emily, stop the accents now.
34:58Or the sparkling brute. She keeps calling it brute. I'm like, it's bubbles. What are you doing, love?
35:02Anyway, their security bill is about two million a year.
35:05So you can completely understand why Harry has mounted this huge campaign, is a campaign, is a military man campaign,
35:14to get his Metropolitan Police security reinstated.
35:20But if, as is indicated currently, he does get that reinstated, that's going to be a huge cost to the
35:28British taxpayer.
35:29That, by the way, the security doesn't come out of the Sovereign Grant.
35:31That's out of us.
35:32It comes out of the Metropolitan Police budget.
35:35Because the Metropolitan Police, which for those...
35:38Metropolitan Police, it's London's police force, and they have a special security operation, which protect VIPs, not just the royals,
35:47but, you know, the prime minister and senior...
35:49Got a hypothetical for you.
35:51Go for it.
35:51In the event of some international outrage, not an unimaginable situation, the head of state might be compromised by the
36:00kidnap of his grandchildren.
36:03Yeah?
36:05It's bad, isn't it?
36:06That could be really, really bad.
36:07God, that gives me...
36:08That makes me...
36:10Actually, that's given me a physical reaction.
36:12But before we go, one question for you.
36:16Which of the following unusual facilities can be found inside Buckingham Palace?
36:22An ATM, a post office, or a police station?
36:26We'll be back after this.
36:32Welcome back to Catching Up With The Royals.
36:35Before the break, I asked which of the following unusual facilities can be found inside Buckingham Palace?
36:40An ATM, a post office, or a police station?
36:43What do you reckon, Richard?
36:45Police station.
36:46Well, you're right, but all of them.
36:50All of them.
36:50And I've seen all of them inside Buckingham Palace.
36:53And who do you think provides the ATM inside BP?
36:57I want to say Coots and Kelly.
36:58You are absolutely correct.
37:00Yes!
37:00It's a Coots ATM.
37:02It's a freestanding.
37:04I actually used it just so that I could, you know, say that I had used the cash machine in
37:09Buckingham Palace.
37:10It's part of the NatWest group, actually, yeah.
37:12Is it?
37:13Yeah.
37:13I bet your account's with Coots, isn't it?
37:15It's not.
37:16No.
37:16But it will be.
37:17It's with another member of the NatWest group.
37:19NatWest.
37:19There you are.
37:20I'm very excited because I've got the red box here.
37:23It's your turn.
37:24This is viewers' questions.
37:26Yes.
37:26The most important bit of the show.
37:28Right.
37:28Let's have a little look.
37:29Okay.
37:32I've made a mess of it.
37:33Hang on.
37:34There we go.
37:34Careful of your mic.
37:35Oh!
37:36Oh, relevant.
37:37This is from Maisie.
37:38Okay.
37:39And she asks, has Harry's public image taken a turn for the worse since he no longer has access to
37:45the palace aids?
37:46Oh, good question, Maisie.
37:49I mean, if you look at the opinion polls, his popularity has really nosedived.
37:54And as has Meghan's.
37:56I mean, he used to be one of the most popular members of the royal family.
37:59And I remember writing that Prince Harry was the one member of the royal family you'd love to go down
38:04the pub with.
38:05He's not the only one you can imagine going to have a pint.
38:07Yeah, have a pint.
38:07Although one time did have to buy him a drink.
38:10He didn't buy me a drink.
38:11Hey, hey, hey, hey.
38:12More on that, please.
38:14Oh, we were in Chile and on a royal tour.
38:20And on royal tours, it's kind of, it's sort of like convention that if you go and follow them around
38:28and report on what they're doing,
38:31then there's a private drinks reception and we got to the bar.
38:38And Harry is a delight.
38:41He's so fun.
38:42He's exactly, well, he was anyway.
38:44I think he lost a bit of his joie de vivre before he left the UK.
38:47I really hope he's got it back now.
38:49But he was so fun.
38:50He's like Tigger bounding around.
38:52And he was like, hey, Em, he comes into the bar.
38:55I said, oh, hi, Harry.
38:56I said, oh, and he's like, oh, you got a drink.
38:58I said, oh, you not got a drink.
38:59He said, I said, oh, I'll get you a drink.
39:01I'll buy you a drink.
39:02And he went, oh, thanks so much.
39:04I'll have half a pint or whatever.
39:06I can't remember what it was, whatever the local lager is.
39:09Did you think that it was an unusual thing that someone offered to buy him a pint?
39:12I don't know.
39:15I think that they probably don't think that much about who is paying for things.
39:23I've certainly been on royal tours where William and Kate were in Bhutan and William and Kate wanted to buy
39:29some jewellery, I think, at the foot of the Tiger's Monastery and they didn't have any cash.
39:34And equally, Charles, when he loves to go to a local market on tour, he doesn't have any cash.
39:40Now, you can kind of understand that because they're in almost like a bubble when they're on tour.
39:44So who has time to go and change your tenner?
39:48You don't go to a cash point, even though there is one in Buckingham Palace.
39:50Even though there is a cash point in Buckingham Palace.
39:52But that's probably giving out pounds.
39:53It's not giving out euros or I can't remember the currency in Bhutan now.
39:58So I think that's kind of understandable.
40:00But I think maybe the sense that I always got, even with Harry and William, who are very down to
40:05earth, was that they were always kind of used to people paying for them.
40:10Yeah. I suppose if things come your way, you don't really think about it that much.
40:15And also, I suppose you have to remember that, and this is part of the reason, I think, for Harry
40:21and Meghan leaving the royal family, that they were effectively being paid for by dad.
40:28So, you know, we've been talking this episode about funding.
40:33We talked about the monarch's funding.
40:34We talked about the Prince of Wales' funding as the heir to the throne.
40:36When Harry and William were growing up, it was their dad who was paying for everything for them.
40:42Fine when they were at Eton.
40:44Fine when they were in their military and at Sandhurst.
40:48But then when they were men in their late 20s and early 30s, they couldn't earn their own money because
40:54they were working royals.
40:56And they had to rely on handouts for dad.
40:58And particularly when they both started their own families, William with Kate and Harry with Meghan.
41:04And then, you know, when you start your own family, you want your independence.
41:09You might have children.
41:10You've got to have a bigger, you know, all that kind of thing.
41:12To continually have to kind of ask your dad.
41:15It's quite embarrassing, isn't it?
41:16I don't know.
41:17It's just such an unimaginably weird life to me.
41:19Yeah, it is.
41:20And also one that's, I can quite understand why you would not want to shine light upon it when so
41:24many people are struggling to pay bills, right?
41:26Well, and also in a cost of living crisis, I think it doesn't behove the family in a particularly good
41:32light to be seen as unimaginably wealthy.
41:36And for Harry, so I think we have to, so to Maisie's question, which was, has the loss of the
41:41courtiers kind of served Harry a disservice?
41:45I mean, I think it just depends on, on who your staff are.
41:50I mean, infamously, Meghan and Harry can't keep hold of their staff that quickly.
41:56They do seem to go through staff quite quickly.
42:01And...
42:01It's the Duchess of Difficult.
42:03The Duchess Difficult, yes.
42:04And I think if the really, really good members of staff, and this was probably the same with celebrities, right?
42:11You would know this better than me, but, because of course you are an A-list celeb, Rich.
42:15But it depends on the calibre of the people around you.
42:18But crucially, they have to be able to stand up to and say no to their employer, whilst also doing
42:25that in a way that they still have the confidence and trust of their employer, who is ultimately paying their
42:31wage.
42:31It's quite a difficult balancing act, isn't it?
42:34It's a very difficult one.
42:35And I imagine to have somebody, it's essential to have someone in your corner who has the power and the
42:41trust to tell you the difficult stuff you need to hear.
42:44And if you don't have that, you're really lacking something.
42:48For me, that's why Harry and Meghan's strategy, or on the face of it, lack of strategy, becomes so explicable.
42:59Because I think that they've gone from being, in my Andrews Venn diagram, in the middle, being royal, with all
43:06the associations that that comes with it, to moving out to America, to becoming just, in inverted commas, celebs.
43:13Now, that's great, but I think they've had a lot of yes people around them.
43:20And also, if, as, I mean, Meghan's always denied all the bullying claims, it's got to be said.
43:25But if it is correct, then it's quite difficult to tell her what she doesn't want to hear.
43:32Do you know what else has run out?
43:33Time.
43:34Bye.
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