- 2 giorni fa
Livestream con Anton, Maya e Dylan Cuthbert per Dreams.
Categoria
🎮️
VideogiochiTrascrizione
00:15So, you're the host.
00:17Oh, what?
00:20Being as, like, all day we've just been bringing people in and then basically stealing them to host our show.
00:27Oh, okay.
00:27That's kind of it.
00:28That's the format.
00:28Okay, so here we're going to reveal everything about this game.
00:34So, we brought Maya along to sculpt some characters.
00:37So, we have, like, a character modeling tool.
00:39And we thought it would be cool to try and make some characters from the Tomala children as a thing.
00:44Yeah.
00:47So, basically, while you make stuff, it's hard to talk.
00:50So, I'll kind of do the talking for Maya.
00:52She can chime in.
00:54So, do you have anything to go on, then?
00:55Well, so, what we do is, you know, you start with, like, a blank character.
01:00So, you know, we have this, I guess we start with some ground.
01:05So, the character is something to stand on.
01:07This is our sculpting tool.
01:09We use, like, a similar voxel tech to you guys.
01:11Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:12It's nice.
01:12I know, like, Jamin and Alex.
01:14Yeah, we've got into this in great detail in our internal, you know, with our internal tech team.
01:19Yeah.
01:20What, all the different bits.
01:22Comparing it.
01:23Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:26So, here's a standard kind of mannequin-like character.
01:30Oh, okay, okay.
01:31Nice.
01:31So, once you start with that, you can kind of go from there to, you can pose it, and then
01:36you can sculpt all the various different bits.
01:38That's pretty cool.
01:39So, let me give you a reference.
01:41Yeah, where's the, we've got a reference picture.
01:43Yeah, I've pulled some off.
01:45What's your, should we just go for the main character, then?
01:48Yeah, yeah.
01:49Have you got a picture with her with, yeah, that one piece?
01:52Yeah.
01:52That one?
01:53Yeah, yeah.
01:54That's good.
01:54The other one had a more zoomed in look.
01:57She's kind of.
01:58There you go.
01:59How?
02:00Oh.
02:00Nice.
02:01Yeah.
02:02Yeah, there you go.
02:03I'll just hold that.
02:05The human.
02:06I am the holding machine.
02:08The holding machine.
02:10Yeah, so.
02:11So, I suppose you get the proportions first.
02:12Yeah.
02:13Yeah.
02:13So, I think what we found was that it's actually quite easy to make a character without any sculpting just
02:19by playing with proportions.
02:20Yes, yeah, yeah.
02:21So, at the start, we made this, you know, tool to very quickly and easily just stretch and pull.
02:31Yeah, yeah.
02:31We try to avoid.
02:32And then anybody can play with it.
02:33Yeah.
02:34That's kind of like, I call it Stretch Armstrong.
02:36In the code, there's like, code that says, if Stretch Armstrong, then do.
02:40Yeah, that's really cool.
02:44Oh, there's the head shape.
02:45Yeah.
02:45It's coming in.
02:46So, we've got, you know, adding in cuts.
02:48Oh, so you kind of squeeze.
02:49Yeah, okay, okay.
02:50Yeah.
02:50And we can have soft add and soft cuts.
02:54So, it's actually one of the techniques that people realized early on is that it's actually easier to start with
03:00more clay and then chip it away.
03:02Yeah, yeah.
03:03Which is kind of like real sculpting.
03:05Just like real sculpting.
03:06And you get the chiseled look that you guys have in your game, I think, with that kind of the
03:11bits.
03:12Yeah.
03:13So, you have the softness in some places, but then you also have the really sharp cuts.
03:18Yeah, exactly.
03:19You really need that.
03:19You need the beveling.
03:20So, who did the, I'm just curious, like the art direction, how did that come about?
03:25I was just trying to kind of recreate like a sort of Cold War look somehow.
03:31And it was just an iteration.
03:32We just went through and we sent the artists out to the Czech Republic.
03:35We got them to learn how to make puppets.
03:38Like the wooden puppets from the Czech Republic.
03:42And then they came back and used the same techniques in the modeling tools.
03:46So, you know, using like Z brush and stuff like that.
03:49Interesting.
03:49Cool.
03:49So, that's like very similar.
03:51It's very similar.
03:52So, it's a sculpted look.
03:53It is a sculpted look.
03:54Yeah.
03:54Exactly.
03:54There you go.
03:55So, it's kind of interesting that both, are we the only two games using voxels on PS4 right now?
04:01I think so.
04:02So, both of them are way for a sculpted look.
04:04Basically.
04:04Yeah.
04:04Yeah.
04:04Yeah.
04:05I think it's a good way to cover some of the problems with voxels.
04:08Right.
04:10Yeah.
04:12But it's good fun.
04:13It gives it a really nice artistic look.
04:15So, it's cool.
04:17Yeah.
04:18So, we actually stumbled upon a similar look just because of the tools.
04:22I think because of the...
04:23Well, that's one of the ways, isn't it, as well?
04:25You look at the technology you have or that you're developing and then you kind of match.
04:30You find a style that matches that technology.
04:32So, one of the reasons why in our game we have a lot of beveling in our game is because
04:36we noticed that the highlights came out really nicely.
04:39Oh, interesting.
04:40With all the lighting.
04:41And because our lighting has the three bounces of light.
04:43Yeah.
04:44If you have three bounces of light, you really want some nice little bevels here and there to pick up
04:49those little extra colors from around you.
04:51All the engineer work needs to be shown.
04:54Yeah, it has to be shown.
04:54If you just had a flat surface, it doesn't show up.
04:57Right.
04:57So, you bring in the little bevels and little ridges and stuff.
05:01To give it.
05:01Interesting.
05:02How about her legs?
05:03You want to...
05:03Huh?
05:03Her legs?
05:04Oh, yeah.
05:05Let me back up.
05:07Sorry.
05:08Is there a shot with the legs?
05:10Okay, maybe there are legs.
05:11Yeah, that's a good one, yeah.
05:13Okay, they're kind of...
05:14Oh, yeah.
05:16I'll give you that one.
05:20I think that's one...
05:21Yeah, it's definitely an interesting way.
05:27I think it's definitely...
05:29Tech people definitely work in that way, I think.
05:32And if you have a good artist team as well, like with the tech, and they just start playing with
05:36it, you can just come with all kinds of crazy stuff.
05:38Much like your stuff.
05:39Yeah, I think that's basically a lot of Kareem saying, Alex, I want this.
05:43Yes.
05:44And Alex just going, God, no.
05:47Like, the sort of...
05:50Oh, putting the eyeballs in.
05:52Yeah.
05:52So, yeah, so you can actually...
05:53Eyeballs.
05:54Well, it's a little large.
05:56Yeah.
05:56She does have kind of large eyes.
05:57It's okay.
05:58That'll do.
05:59Yeah, so we can...
06:01You know, in addition to the sculpting, we can also just bring in other people's objects.
06:06Do you have a name for the little characters?
06:08Which characters?
06:09Oh, the little curses.
06:10Yeah, the imps.
06:10Oh, they're imps, okay.
06:12Yeah, they sort of represent you.
06:13Well, that's scary.
06:14You and the...
06:16I think it's the lack of cheeks.
06:17I think she's got to have the cheeks.
06:18Yeah.
06:19But that's like a post-Soft Glen thing, right?
06:21Yeah, I think so.
06:22Yeah.
06:24So, have you done much sculpting, then, in your own engine?
06:28Yeah, yeah, actually, I do.
06:31I want to see some programmer art.
06:34Yeah.
06:36I mostly do the assembly bits of it.
06:39Oh, okay, okay.
06:40So, like, it's a lot easier to sort of get other people's stuff and just collage it together.
06:43Yeah.
06:44So, I make birds with arms, mostly.
06:46Oh, okay.
06:46I don't know if you're familiar with the concept, but I take people's birds that they've made,
06:50and I take the arms that people have made.
06:52Right, right.
06:53It's a fairly well-defined niche.
06:55Yeah, that's cool.
06:56But I sculpt, like, heads and faces here and there just to, like...
06:59Oh, nice.
07:00I guess, like, I imitate the artists to the point where I go through the same motions.
07:05My work is just a lot worse.
07:06Yeah, yeah, yeah.
07:07But I need to do that to make the UI good.
07:09Yeah, exactly, exactly.
07:11Yeah, if I'm making it the way I do things is very different than the way they do things,
07:15then the UI is never going to be good.
07:16So, when I make the UI, I'm kind of like, okay, I'll at least pretend like I'm Kareem.
07:21Yeah, exactly.
07:22Yeah, it's crap.
07:22I'll move my head in the same way.
07:23Do a bit of play acting.
07:25Yeah, so that's kind of the...
07:28There's a lot of fun with the two moves.
07:30Yeah.
07:31Yeah, so we support, like, move controllers.
07:33We support the DS4 controller with and without the camera.
07:37So, it's like, for sculpting, the moves really help because it's kind of 3D, really 3D input.
07:43But for play, the DS4 is obviously really nice because it has, you know, analog sticks and all that.
07:48So, we're sort of taking, like, almost like a tool agnostic approach, which is a nightmare for UI.
07:54Yeah, yeah, yeah.
07:55Totally, totally.
07:56And it's hard enough to make UI for, like, one controller.
07:58Yes.
07:58Yeah, yeah.
08:00I think once you take the plunge, it sort of becomes a bit less painful.
08:06You've just decided that's what you're doing and that's how it goes.
08:10Exactly, that's all you have to do.
08:16It reminds me of, at the moment, it reminds me of those little aliens in Star Wars.
08:23Oh, yeah.
08:24The ones at the bar in the cantina in Star Wars.
08:28Oh, yeah, I know what you're saying.
08:29Yeah, I think they were playing, like, the instruments.
08:35Yeah, so we've got, um...
08:39Trying to get the stroke right.
08:41Yeah.
08:41Oh, yeah.
08:43It's tough to replicate something that must have taken, like, months of iteration.
08:47Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
08:48Ah, stop!
08:52Oh, no, I mean this.
08:53You're seeing the, uh, the transition between the two.
08:58It's really cool, like, the...
09:00It's getting there, like, you can see it getting closer.
09:04Yeah, it's interesting.
09:06Like, I think you have to hit on the understanding what the artist internally is seeing.
09:12Yeah, yeah, yeah.
09:12It's almost like, you know, when you start drawing, you draw the circles?
09:15Well, the...
09:16Yeah, you're right.
09:17Yeah, no, no, no.
09:18Also, this...
09:19The artist who designed this character is based...
09:22Basically on herself.
09:24Oh, really?
09:25Yeah, so...
09:26And, uh, so she, uh...
09:29We went through a lot of iterations, but it ended up somehow looking like her.
09:35We've been seeing that.
09:36Yeah, it happens a lot.
09:37It's strange.
09:38You don't tend to make characters that look too much like...
09:40Oh, actually, yeah, you do.
09:41That look too much like what?
09:43Like, like you.
09:43Like, you basically...
09:44Like, no.
09:46Yeah.
09:46Yeah, but they...
09:47That's the thing.
09:47They don't say...
09:48They don't say...
09:48They don't admit it.
09:50Denial.
09:51Denial.
09:51Denial.
09:52Denial.
09:53Our artists, the character artists for us as well, just, like...
09:56Yeah, we'll say that, and she'll go, no, it doesn't.
09:58It doesn't look like me.
09:58And it's just like...
10:00Yes.
10:01Yeah, we've had a similar incident where Emily made a character that looks exactly like Emily.
10:08It's funny.
10:09Huh?
10:10It's funny, though.
10:11Yeah, it's like, why do you...
10:12Yeah, why are you...
10:13Karin made a character that looks just like Karin?
10:15And she's like, no, I didn't.
10:17What?
10:17You would...
10:20Yeah, so it's...
10:21It'd be fun seeing how you do the, uh, the skirts.
10:23Oh, yeah.
10:25So we have this kind of...
10:26Um, because it's voxels, right?
10:28As you well know, it's, like, really hard to animate voxels.
10:31Yeah, yeah, yeah.
10:32Um, do you guys also have the multi-piece?
10:34Uh, we don't do that, no.
10:35So we...
10:35No, so you skin it.
10:36Well, we don't use voxels for the actual character.
10:38Oh, okay.
10:38So, yeah.
10:39So, yeah.
10:40Um, we use it for...
10:40We use voxels for the lighting.
10:43And we use something else for the actual...
10:44The actual polygon...
10:46The polygonization, you know, which is, um...
10:49Called LDC, Layered Depth Cube.
10:51Oh, what?
10:52Layered Depth Cubes.
10:54So that's our technology for that, for our stuff, yeah.
10:56Interesting.
10:58So, yeah, we...
10:59Since we go with this full voxel...
11:00You're a full voxel.
11:01Full voxel, yeah.
11:02Um, we...
11:04It's very hard to do skinning in a traditional sense.
11:07Yeah, yeah.
11:08So the bipeds are made out of, like, multiple pieces.
11:11And at first, it's, like, very restrictive,
11:13because all the artists come in, they're like,
11:14how do we skin this thing?
11:16Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
11:17It can be very tricky.
11:18But then you sort of...
11:19You slowly get used to working the joinery.
11:23Yeah.
11:23And you get that puppet look.
11:24Yeah.
11:24Basically to an extreme.
11:25It's, like, you use the same techniques that puppet makers do
11:28to make the joinery not look, you know, like, G.I. Joe style.
11:32Yeah, yeah, yeah.
11:33Um, and that's all about...
11:35What's that?
11:35What are those white bits?
11:36The white...
11:37Is that, like, a selection?
11:39Oh.
11:39This white, kind of...
11:40Oh, that's just the axis, I think.
11:42Oh, so it shows the axis.
11:43I think it's just showing the axis, yeah.
11:45I think a lot of it is debug.
11:46Although we just realized that it kind of looks like DaVinci when...
11:49Yeah, yeah, yeah.
11:49Yeah, exactly.
11:50It sort of worked out.
11:51Yeah, yeah, yeah.
11:51But, yeah, it's just the debug.
11:52So it's either origin.
11:53Oh, okay.
11:53That's cool.
11:55It just kind of looked cool.
11:56So it's like...
11:58Yeah, this is the first one we've made because for a long time it was, like, RGB and everyone
12:03hated it.
12:03Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:04Liam and I did this one.
12:05Actually, everyone's quite okay with it.
12:07Yeah, no, no, it's cool.
12:08Yeah.
12:10One of the things...
12:11I can't wait to have a play on it.
12:11Huh?
12:12I can't wait to have a play.
12:13Yeah.
12:14Like, myself, you know, see what I can make.
12:17Yeah, what we found is because you can basically...
12:21We make it very free and you can move around and do stuff.
12:25people would make stuff that's just, like, off into space or just scaled in a really crazy
12:30way.
12:30So we started just forcing them to have an axis so they just know that, hey, you're making
12:34a five kilometer apple right now.
12:37But they still don't care.
12:39Still don't gaze.
12:39The artist just, like, it's an apple.
12:42Live with it.
12:42Yeah, just deal with it.
12:44Yeah.
12:44So, um...
12:48It's funny.
12:50It's definitely got the puppet look.
12:52Yeah, it's difficult to get the cheeks.
12:55More cheeks.
12:55More cheeks.
12:55Yeah?
12:57Dylan, what do you think?
12:58What's your right direction?
12:58Yeah, maybe more cheek.
12:59More cheek.
13:01She's got quite strong cheekbones.
13:03Yeah, Dylan.
13:03Like, maybe cubes.
13:04Soft cubes.
13:10I think cube cheeks could go well.
13:13Because if you do soft cubes, see what it looks like because it'll give you that...
13:17Soft cubes?
13:18Yeah, like if you take...
13:19I think it's funnier like this.
13:22How?
13:23I was thinking take the cube shape.
13:25Yeah?
13:27And use it in a soft way.
13:29Like the...
13:31Soft...
13:31Yeah.
13:32Ah, this one.
13:33Because that might give you...
13:34Oh, yeah.
13:34You get that sort of ridge.
13:37Because she's got, like, almost boxes, doesn't she?
13:39Yeah, yeah.
13:40Because she is carved.
13:41Or maybe, like, start with the smooth, yeah, and then cut into it.
13:46Yeah.
13:49Right now, my internally is thinking, Anton, why didn't you wire up pick from the scene?
13:54Because I really want that color.
13:57It's coming.
13:58There you go.
14:02Yeah, like...
14:03It's got a nice softening, isn't it?
14:05Yeah.
14:07Smoothing.
14:07It's difficult to get things looking exactly like you want them.
14:10Yeah.
14:11So just go, yeah, go for the impression.
14:13Yeah.
14:15So you guys must have done all custom tools, right?
14:19Yeah, yeah.
14:21I mean, conversion tools and stuff like that, yeah.
14:23But we...
14:24Our stuff's still modeled in regular, like, ZBrush and stuff like that, and we just convert down.
14:29But all our stages, all our level data is all custom tools.
14:34Okay.
14:34Because that's all done within the engine and with the layered depth cube stuff.
14:40Yeah, we found it really difficult to work on the tools and the game at the same time.
14:45Yeah, it is tough.
14:45And you need your best programmers doing the tools.
14:48Thank you.
14:48Yeah.
14:49It's true.
14:50It's like, you know...
14:52With some serious eyeballs.
14:54I feel like these ones are better than the other ones.
14:56Yeah.
14:56I don't know.
14:58Maybe.
14:59Slightly kooky, though.
15:01Slightly kooky.
15:05Doesn't have to be...
15:06Yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:09I don't know.
15:10Yeah.
15:12Yeah, it's like, you kind of have to, because the thing, you know, our big pitch is everything in dreams
15:16is 100% made in dreams.
15:18Yeah, exactly, yeah.
15:19And that's kind of like an eat-your-own-dog-food kind of mentality.
15:22Yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:23And you basically have to, you know...
15:25I suppose it's the same on LittleBigPlanet as well, right?
15:28Yeah, but LittleBigPlanet, you know, Sackpo was made in Maya and animated in Maya.
15:32Right, okay.
15:33But, like, here, all of our characters...
15:34But the levels were all in...
15:35The old levels, yeah, the levels were all made.
15:37Yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:38But they were made out of assets that were, you know, made in.
15:41Yeah.
15:42So it's more like collaging.
15:43Yeah.
15:44Which we have in this, obviously, but...
15:45You have to do everything in this.
15:46Yeah, the things you're collaging here are things that were made.
15:49Right.
15:50And just that one distinction is just like...
15:52Yeah.
15:53That's the world of difference and...
15:56Also, I mean, just, you know, the way you can animate this after this is pretty cool as well.
15:59Yeah, once we get this, actually, you can just grab it and puppeteer it.
16:03Yeah, yeah, yeah, that'd be cool.
16:04So it's very much a puppet metaphor.
16:06Like, we always try to find metaphors to explain to people...
16:12Oh, sorry.
16:13I'm being a bad holder.
16:14No.
16:15How do we explain to people, like, what's the mood that they should be in?
16:19Yeah.
16:19Because when, you know, when you're sculpting, if you treat it like ZBrush, you're going to be in a world
16:24of hurt.
16:25Yeah, yeah.
16:25Because it just doesn't have the precision or the voxel resolution, all of that.
16:30So you kind of have to take advantage of what it's good at, which is the kind of more performance
16:35-based, like, carving.
16:37And puppeting is the same way.
16:39Like, if you're coming from an animation background, you're like, where's my curves?
16:42Where's my...
16:43How am I going to...
16:44Yeah, exactly.
16:44Yeah, exactly, yeah.
16:46No, you can't think it like that.
16:47You just have to think like a puppeteer.
16:49Yeah, yeah.
16:49So that's...
16:51Yeah, basically, sculpting is like sculpting.
16:54Animation is like puppeteering.
16:55It kind of almost has, like, a soft side to it, right?
17:01So, like, sculpting is more like, you know, like wood and stone and stuff like that.
17:04But this feels a little softer than that.
17:06So it's almost like you're sculpting in with cotton wool, in a way, in some...
17:11Yeah.
17:12Some of the tools.
17:13Some of the bits, yeah.
17:14Some of the bits.
17:14And I think...
17:15It's kind of cool.
17:16I think at this point, it might have dropped res because of the time spent.
17:23Oh, right.
17:23After a long time, it, like, starts to de-res to go faster.
17:26Oh, interesting.
17:26So there's still some optimization.
17:28Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:29But we actually have controls to kind of crank that up.
17:32Oh, okay, yeah.
17:32And that's how we do the foresty bits and, like...
17:35Right, right, yeah.
17:36Yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:36All of that kind of stuff.
17:37That's cool.
17:39So is it...
17:42Is it a sharp split in your game between, like, the environment and all the other objects?
17:46Yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:47So, but they're in...
17:47I mean, they're all within the same voxel lighting system.
17:50That's what makes it sit really well.
17:52Yeah, so everything sits together.
17:53Yeah, everything sits together, yeah.
17:54Yeah, because every time, you know, when you look at other games, they use voxels and polys.
17:58It's always this uncomfortable...
18:00Yeah, yeah, like, sort of...
18:01Yeah.
18:02Also, it has a very strong sense of coherence, I suppose.
18:06Like, a very coherent...
18:07Yeah, very...
18:08Solidity.
18:08Yeah, yeah, exactly.
18:10Yeah, it was a bit of a surprise for us on Dreams because, you know, we're always obviously
18:15pushing this idea of collaging and you make something and I bring it in and we remix it.
18:20Yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:21But actually, if you try to do that just, like, with TurboSquid or something, like...
18:26I mean, TurboSquid's awesome, but, like, the models you put in are all different stuff.
18:28styles.
18:29No, it's true.
18:30They don't sit.
18:31Yeah, and you need it all to sit together, don't you?
18:33Yeah, and we kind of lucked out with the lighting being voxel-ish lighting.
18:37Yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:37It's like, oh, we sort of get it all to sit together.
18:40Yeah, and it just all...
18:40We'll take it.
18:41Yeah, and it all just is nice and consistent, you know?
18:43Yeah, it's such a big, big deal because for a while, the lighting was, you know, just
18:47standard N.L kind of, like, placeholder lighting.
18:50And then when the lighting really clicked, everything just...
18:53Yeah.
18:54And that made people really work well together.
18:56No, that's cool.
18:56It makes you just never want to do a traditional game again.
18:59Yeah, exactly.
19:00Well, same for us as well.
19:01It's like, just do it our own way.
19:05Yeah.
19:05It's a lot more fun that way.
19:07Yeah.
19:11Here comes the patchwork.
19:13Oh, yeah, the pockets.
19:23So, you mentioned that you were inspired by the kind of communist era.
19:27Yeah.
19:28Cold war style.
19:29Kind of the Cold War as I saw it from England.
19:32Oh, yeah.
19:32You know, as I grew up, like, say, like, so in the 70s-ish.
19:36So, in the 70s, there were a lot of, you know, programs that were based around the 60s.
19:39And so, that's kind of the image I have of, that sort of, you know, very, a little bit
19:42black and white, you know, a little bit cold.
19:45Oh, we've got a button.
19:46That's cool.
19:47Yeah, amazing.
19:49So, can you, like, create, like, preset objects and then save them out and then bring them
19:53into...
19:54Yeah, yeah, yeah.
19:54Yeah.
19:57Yeah, so any object that anyone's ever made, you just go through search.
20:01Oh, nice.
20:02Yeah, yeah.
20:02Stamp it.
20:02Just use it.
20:03See, I mean, obviously, sculpting is sort of the high end of making unique objects.
20:07Yeah, yeah.
20:08But you can actually get really far just by bringing objects in and collaging them together,
20:12so...
20:12I presume, well, I mean, I presume, you know, it'll be a massive community, you know, sort
20:17of an object you can just bring in from anybody and...
20:20Yeah, which makes search a problem.
20:21So, like...
20:21Yes, yeah, yeah.
20:22We all of a sudden are hitting, like, Google-grade problems.
20:24Yes, exactly.
20:25That's true.
20:26That's true.
20:26Wouldn't it be great if everyone could make stuff?
20:28It's like, yes, but...
20:29Because it got pretty difficult even on LittleBigPlanet, didn't it, when you were looking
20:31for a stage?
20:33Yeah.
20:33And even with the...
20:34It was a very cool tagging system, but even then, as more and more people just made
20:39more and more stuff, you know, you could always find a stage, but you just...
20:45You kept on looking and looking and looking and looking, you know, so to find the exact
20:49thing you were looking for.
20:50Yeah.
20:51So, what we're trying to do now is we want to be much more people-focused.
20:57Yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:57So, instead of searching for stuff, we actually think about searching for people.
21:01Oh, okay, okay.
21:02So, it's almost like the Google image versus Pinterest mentality.
21:06Oh, okay, okay.
21:06So, we want people to follow other people.
21:08Yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:09That's a good idea.
21:10Yeah.
21:10Because, first of all, like, frankly, programmer speaking, there's a lot less algorithm work
21:13involved.
21:14Like, you just make people be able to make collections and creation and stuff.
21:18You let them deal with it.
21:20Yeah.
21:20We leverage the, you know...
21:23That's probably the way to do it.
21:23...of everybody.
21:24And on the plus side, like, you actually, I feel like you end up with more human collections
21:31and search results.
21:32Yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:33So, that's kind of our bank.
21:36Like, if that doesn't work, it's tricky because then you have to do the Google.
21:39Then you have to do the Google.
21:40Yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:41But if that works out, and we kind of have some thinking that it will because in Little
21:46Big Planet, like you said, people actually were moving towards that more.
21:49Yeah, yeah.
21:49They would actually, you know, we had the LBP.me stuff where everyone has their own
21:55homepage and stuff.
21:56Yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:57And then people would share links to those.
21:59And they would just, like, post.
22:00Ah, okay.
22:00So, it sort of started, the community itself was pushing towards more like, hey, just let
22:04us, you know, share who's got what.
22:08Right, right.
22:08And make it a bit more organic rather than trying to own the whole problem yourself, so
22:13to speak.
22:13So, I think for Dreams, the idea is that the people are at the forefront of the search results.
22:19Yeah.
22:19So, it's very much about who it is that you're looking for.
22:23Yeah, yeah.
22:23That's cool.
22:24And then it's more like, you just have to know the people in the community that do the
22:27kind of thing.
22:28So, I know that Maya does really cool characters.
22:30So, if I want to do characters, I'm like, oh, let's check out what Maya's made.
22:33Put them in.
22:34Put it in.
22:36Like, I don't actually want to search for character.
22:38Because what is that going to give me?
22:40Like, I don't know.
22:41And then I have to narrow it down.
22:43So, yeah.
22:44So, that's kind of the.
22:46Are you going to have some kind of earning system?
22:50Not real money, but like, you know, like some way to, if people are using a lot of your,
22:55the things that you've spent time making.
22:57Oh, yeah.
22:58You get like kudos back.
22:59Like, we did that for like PixelJunk 4AM, for example.
23:03Yeah.
23:03So, you'd have people, you can like give kudos to the person doing the DJing.
23:08And it's just a point thing.
23:10But it's still very gratifying.
23:12Yeah.
23:13And I think it's important for people to feel comfortable sharing their work.
23:15Yeah, exactly.
23:16Because if they're like, oh, you're going to copy my stuff?
23:18Yeah.
23:19Say it's, no, screw you, man.
23:20Exactly, exactly.
23:21Like, that's not.
23:21So, yeah, we have, basically have like a lineage system.
23:25So, every time you put in, bring in an asset, you know, we remember the idea of that asset.
23:29Yeah.
23:29And we, there's like an actual automatic credits list, like forced upon every dream.
23:35Oh, that's cool.
23:35Like, these are the objects used in it.
23:37Yeah, yeah, yeah.
23:37These are the people.
23:38These are all the people involved.
23:39Yeah.
23:40And that brings in some interesting questions about like, how, like, where is the create,
23:46like, how do you measure contribution?
23:49Yeah, yeah, yeah.
23:49Do you know what I mean?
23:50Because like.
23:50It's quite visual, isn't it?
23:51So, I mean, they could have completely changed it.
23:53Yeah.
23:54Right?
23:54So.
23:54You could have completely changed it.
23:55And at one point, is it still, it's like inspired by?
23:58Yeah, yeah.
23:58Yeah, and then you need, and it might not even be inspired.
24:01It might be just that you start with it, and then you actually throw it all away.
24:04Yeah.
24:04And, yeah, so it's difficult.
24:05So, how do you judge that?
24:06It's difficult to judge.
24:07We need a kind of human judging system.
24:09Yeah, we're still pondering how exactly that's, that's sort of going to go down.
24:12Because, yeah, it's an open question.
24:16One interesting reference point that Alex brought up is like, you know, YouTube, I can,
24:22I can put up a video of the Beatles performing.
24:25Yeah, yeah.
24:25But nobody's confused that it was me that performed it.
24:27Yeah, that's true.
24:28You know, so like, you know the Beatles, so it doesn't matter who put it up.
24:31Yeah.
24:31So maybe there's going to be a bit of that.
24:33It's like, you'll know this is my character.
24:34Right, right.
24:35So it doesn't matter that I just stole it and put it in.
24:37It's like, well, no, it says it's hers.
24:40Yeah, yeah, yeah.
24:40You begin to recognize, yeah.
24:42Yeah, so maybe that's the way out.
24:44Yeah.
24:44So like you said, a bit human-er.
24:45Yeah, some sort of, yeah.
24:51She's very dark brown.
24:53Oh, no, it's just because it's showing you what's not in focus right now.
24:57Oh, I see.
24:57It's showing you what the pieces.
24:58It darkens.
24:59It's an ugly, ugly hat.
25:01So when you...
25:01The artists hate me for it.
25:02Yeah, yeah.
25:04It's a typical one.
25:05It's a typical programmer hat.
25:06Yeah, so now you can puppeteer her.
25:08Oh, nice, nice.
25:09This is getting pretty close.
25:11Hey, we get that problem anyway in our game sometimes.
25:14Oh, do you?
25:15When we do some extreme animations.
25:18Where she isn't quite...
25:19She doesn't have quite enough bones to cope.
25:22Oh, yeah.
25:22Have you ever seen that five-bones starfish rig?
25:25No, no.
25:26Check that out.
25:26Five bones.
25:27Five-bones starfish rig.
25:29Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:29And Anton Kirchner on our team just sent it out.
25:33It's like surprisingly good.
25:35It's like crazy compression.
25:37Oh, yeah.
25:45What do we got?
25:46Oh, calves.
25:47Yeah.
25:48Professional.
25:51Oh, what?
25:53Something that looks like it.
26:02Fuck me.
26:02Oh, you can pose it too.
26:04So you can pose whatever way you want it.
26:06Do a salute.
26:07Can you do a salute?
26:09Or that, yeah.
26:11Or the...
26:11Yeah, salute.
26:12What's the correct...
26:13Yeah, yeah.
26:13What is she holding?
26:14Is she holding something?
26:15Ah, this one.
26:18Oh, Russians.
26:19Yeah, yeah, yeah.
26:20Primary school is part of her training.
26:22And then all you need to do is repeat her about a hundred times.
26:24You know, we can.
26:25Oh, you can?
26:26Yeah, so we should...
26:27Huh?
26:28Because she's a clone.
26:29Clone tool will work.
26:30Yeah, clone tool will work.
26:30We have a thing called clone tool.
26:31Oh, really?
26:32Oh, cool, cool.
26:32Because she is a clone.
26:33She is a clone.
26:34Yeah, sorry.
26:34I can make a whole army of them.
26:36So I used to...
26:37I found this hack.
26:38I'll show you.
26:39Maybe I should do it just because...
26:41Oh, I see.
26:42Yeah.
26:43The problem is the head doesn't know about the pose.
26:46Yeah, yeah, yeah.
26:46So when you...
26:46She's just going to poke herself in the eyes.
26:48But we'll see.
26:50Maybe just do that one then.
26:51The fist.
26:52Oh, yeah.
26:54So it's like, what?
26:56So can you...
26:57So, yeah, so it's a sheep tool.
26:59Oh, okay.
27:00Are you going to tweak her up to make fancy dancing?
27:04Tweak her up?
27:05What are you going to do?
27:06I just...
27:07I'm not sure.
27:08Oh, I was going to say...
27:08So Dylan was saying, can we clone her a bunch of times?
27:11Does that work?
27:12Or is it going to...
27:12Yeah, it works.
27:13There you go, there you go.
27:15So we have a clone tool, but...
27:16Oh, cool.
27:17We'll let you press any number of button presses,
27:19and it just...
27:20It repeats the transform between the first and the clone.
27:22Oh, okay, okay.
27:23So you can make...
27:25Sorry.
27:26That's cool.
27:28They're all looking at each other like, what?
27:33Leaning in for a kiss.
27:36So I think there was a hack for a while.
27:40I don't know if it still works.
27:41That's kind of cool.
27:42It kind of reminds me of an accordion.
27:43Yeah.
27:43By the way, it kind of stretches out.
27:47What?
27:49Dancing.
27:49Can you select them all now?
27:51Is that possible?
27:53But not the ground.
27:55And then press triangle on one of them.
27:59Yeah.
27:59So now use the move tool.
28:01So I put in this thing that just fell out.
28:03Let's see if it works.
28:04Yes.
28:05So when you group them, you move them as one,
28:07but their legs are like...
28:09Oh, yeah.
28:10That's cool.
28:11It's just like puppets, isn't it?
28:12Yeah, so it's kind of an interesting way of making a puppet that's like composite.
28:17But it's like, she's a slightly drunk version.
28:20Sorry.
28:22No, that's not your fault.
28:23That's the other thing.
28:27She's been on the vodka too much.
28:30She has a backpack on.
28:32Oh, yeah.
28:32She's got a backpack.
28:33Dang.
28:33So one of the other cool things is it's all kind of instanced.
28:36So when you add a backpack, it just closes on all of them.
28:38Oh, it's instanced.
28:39That's cool.
28:40That's cool.
28:41One of the hardest things to convey is actually that instancing.
28:45Yeah, yeah.
28:45Because people just aren't really used to thinking.
28:48Thinking that it will duplicate.
28:49Yeah.
28:50So we actually have...
28:51Yeah, we need to think a lot about how do we...
28:54That's pretty cool though.
28:54So you could create symmetric kind of creations, couldn't you?
29:00So if you clone and flip and then start drawing,
29:03you can do some pretty interesting stuff or clone and rotate a bit.
29:06Yeah.
29:07That's been a lot of fun actually.
29:09So we have like a default mirror mode, which is just...
29:12Right, yeah.
29:12I think I've seen that.
29:14But yeah, like you said, if you sort of leverage the instancing...
29:17The instancing, you can do some really fun stuff with it, can you?
29:20Yeah, so I think that that's...
29:23Nobody has yet fully tapped that.
29:25Yeah, yeah.
29:26So I think that's a very programmer-y kind of way of thinking.
29:28Yeah, exactly.
29:29Yeah, yeah.
29:29I think you'll see some pretty crazy stuff being created.
29:36So you're using symmetry there in some way to do that?
29:38So at any point, you can turn on basic just bilateral symmetry.
29:44Yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:45I'm going to have a rotational symmetry.
29:46It helps a lot when you're drawing, doesn't it?
29:47Yeah, rotational symmetry.
29:48Rotational symmetry helps for like tables and whatever.
29:51It's like going back to the days of Deluxe Paint on the Amiga.
29:54Yeah.
29:54Somebody on Twitter was just asking like they wanted the He Rotate from the old Amiga palettes.
29:59Yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:59Should we have He Rotate?
30:00Yeah, those are great.
30:01Yeah, those are great.
30:02I spent hours playing with that in Deluxe Paint.
30:07Yeah.
30:07And you just set the color palette rotating as well.
30:09Yeah.
30:09And you create lots of animations and crazy looking stuff.
30:12Yeah, so the first idea, like when I first joined Media Molecule, I told Alex, I'm like,
30:16can we have palette color?
30:17Yeah, yeah.
30:18And he was like, let's do it.
30:19Yeah.
30:19And we didn't end up doing it, but we ended up doing transformation matrices on the colors.
30:23So each object has a unique transform.
30:25Nice, nice.
30:26You could do a He Rotate.
30:27Actually, we do in the Tomorrow Children as well, we use a 3D color cube and we map all
30:32the colors.
30:33Oh, yeah.
30:34Completely.
30:35And also taking the Z as well.
30:36So it's almost like a 4D color cube.
30:38So you mean like you basically have like a lot for the front and the back and we interpolate
30:43between the two.
30:44Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
30:46So, yes, we have two cubes, basically two color cubes.
30:49Two palette cubes.
30:50Yeah, two palette cubes.
30:51It works really well because it lets us like completely control the look of the whole color
30:57of the game.
30:58And how do you author the cubes?
31:00Because that's one of the things I'm working on.
31:02It's actually that similar.
31:04How do you author the cubes?
31:05Is it like via?
31:07We have a tool we use, we basically copied all the controls in Lightroom.
31:11Yeah.
31:11And then we generate the cubes on the fly from that, from those controls.
31:14Yep.
31:14So we have all like shadow control and all kinds of, yeah.
31:18Yeah, so we have a grade tool.
31:20It's not available here because it's all in debug UI.
31:24But I've tried a few things.
31:26You know, I've done the copy low curves and whatever.
31:30Yeah, yeah, yeah.
31:30We actually didn't do it with cubes.
31:31We just did it on the fly in the shader just as a prototype.
31:34But the cubes is like a much more efficient thing.
31:37So much, yeah.
31:37Because I mean, you don't even need that big a cube.
31:39Like, if it's not a secret, what do you guys use?
31:42I think it's just a 32 by 32 by 32.
31:44Yeah, that seems to be the industry.
31:44And it works fine.
31:45It works fine, yeah.
31:46But I did try a weird prototype that I'd be curious to kind of share with people.
31:51Yeah, yeah.
31:52But you paint the LUT directly with a paintbrush.
31:55Oh, that'd be fun.
31:56And it was mental.
31:57Or distort it.
31:57Like, lattice distort it, maybe.
31:58Yeah.
31:59That'd be kind of cool.
31:59And that's a cold just basically.
32:00People don't know what we're talking about now.
32:02No, we're like,
32:02Lattice distorting color cubes?
32:03Yeah, what is that?
32:05But it's a lot of fun.
32:06Like, color manipulation is actually a lot of fun.
32:08And it changes the look of the scene completely.
32:10Completely, completely.
32:11So if you look at most screenshots of the Tomorrow Children,
32:13you'll see how each one has been, like, designed to be this look.
32:18Yeah.
32:18So it's like, either it's warm and lush, or it's cold and bright.
32:21Or, you know, it all comes from this kind of, the color cube.
32:26Yeah, it comes from the post-processing.
32:28Yeah, that's what we found.
32:30And, like, Alex and I are very passionate about exposing that to people.
32:34Yeah, definitely.
32:34But even the majority of our art team, when they see those knobs and stuff,
32:38they get quite weary.
32:40And they're, like, low, mid-high is pretty understandable.
32:42Yeah, yeah, yeah.
32:43But at one point we had, like, log gamma gain.
32:45Right, right, right, right.
32:46The film industry ones.
32:47Yeah, with us as well, it's just me that fiddles with those values.
32:52And I set them all.
32:55I think it's because I got into photography a few years ago.
32:58And I just wanted to bring that sense of photography into the game.
33:02Yeah.
33:02And so I just forced them to make the system.
33:06Yeah, so I think that they, give you a close-up.
33:09Cool.
33:10Since I know you're working on the face.
33:11But, yeah, one of the motivations to do this more kind of performance
33:17or, like, fun way of doing grading was because, like, it's such a huge deal.
33:21Yeah, it is.
33:21And very few people on the team were using it.
33:23Yeah.
33:23The people that were were getting this amazing screenshot.
33:25Exactly, exactly.
33:26Once you do the color, I mean, I've seen, you know,
33:27some of the screenshots you were putting out on,
33:29and you can tell they've been really nicely color-graded, you know.
33:32Yeah, that's all John.
33:33I don't know if he's around.
33:34Yeah, yeah.
33:34And it makes a huge difference.
33:35And it needs a certain eye as well.
33:37Yeah.
33:37For, like, shadows and colors and saturation and, you know, a certain skill.
33:42It's very easy to make them look really garish.
33:44Yeah, exactly.
33:45Yeah, you can quickly go garish.
33:48Yeah, the thing that always, the thing that bugged me about those tools
33:52is it's very hard to do Polaroids, and I always want to do Polaroids.
33:55Yeah, yeah, yeah.
33:55And that's a very specific, non-linear garbage thing.
34:00So, you can, in using professional sort of photograph editing,
34:04you can actually, you know, it has all the curves and everything,
34:05so you can really emulate those old films, and it's a lot of fun.
34:09Yeah, and part of the things is, you know, we do want to make movies and dreams.
34:12Yeah, yeah, yeah.
34:14So, it's natural to.
34:15I think for, like, the sort of, someone who doesn't want to fiddle too much,
34:19you could just create filter packs, you know, just like, you know,
34:21the way Instagram does it, but on a much, much better level
34:24because you've got more color detail you can actually fiddle with.
34:27Yeah.
34:28So, Instagram, you know, has to do it on, you know, with a low-quality sensor,
34:32but here you've got a full range, full color range.
34:34Yeah, and I've heard Instagram's not even LUTs.
34:36I was like.
34:36No, it's not.
34:37I was trying to reverse engineer a bit of it, but it's not.
34:40And I was like, oh, well, that's.
34:41Yeah, I think they're all just very simple, you know,
34:43Yeah, just simple color filters and stuff.
34:46Yeah, I'll send you some images of the weird LUT painter thing.
34:50Yeah, that sounds great.
34:51It was, I never actually put it in because, actually, storage.
34:54It was very hard to.
34:55Right, yeah, yeah.
34:57Yeah, but, yeah.
34:58Plus, you have to do it with quite a high-res if you're going to paint it.
35:01Yeah, Alex was yelling at me, basically.
35:04I was doing it on CPU at one point, too.
35:06Right.
35:08No.
35:09Yeah.
35:10You can do some fun things like inverse images very quickly, as well.
35:13Stuff that, you know, like really weird, psychedelic kind of looks, as well.
35:16Do you know what was really good about it, though, that we still haven't gotten back,
35:20is, so I had a desaturate tool.
35:22So you see the cube in a rapid way.
35:24But you can just say, oh, you know what, there's too much green.
35:27So you just hover over the green and you just desaturate the greens.
35:30Yeah, yeah, yeah.
35:30It's really intuitive rather than finding the curve for green.
35:34And then trying to, yeah, yeah, exactly.
35:36It's like, oh, yeah, I had a desaturator and it goes squirt.
35:38Yeah.
35:38It's green.
35:39And you can do very easily those, like, selective color looks.
35:42Yeah, yeah, yeah.
35:42Just by desaturating everything, like the red or the yellow.
35:46And it worked on, like, lows, so you can desaturate the lows.
35:49Ah, okay, okay.
35:51There's another photographer tool called Capture One.
35:54That gives you a similar thing where you pick the color
35:56and then it gives you a pie chart, like, and it shows you,
36:01like, the, within a sort of RGB sort of pie chart.
36:04It's actually RGB, but, you know, like a color pie chart.
36:06Yeah, yeah, yeah.
36:06And then it shows you the segment of the color that you've chosen.
36:09And then you can widen it and squeeze it and rotate it
36:12to a completely different hue.
36:14And you can see it, like, graphically.
36:15And it's pinching.
36:16And it's not just like a little curve.
36:18You can actually play with it there.
36:20I think we're going to be signs.
36:22We're just getting into the technical stuff.
36:24So should we do, like, a puppet show for...
36:27Yeah, yeah, yeah, go on, then.
36:31You can also make him walk.
36:33They're winding us up.
36:35I'm sure I've been watching it very easily.
36:37Oh, yeah.
36:38You know what we were talking about.
36:40There's, like, three people on Twitter that are like,
36:42please keep talking, Dylan.
36:44Yeah, exactly.
36:46And you're like, oh, this is really interesting.
36:50Oh, he needs more stompiness.
36:52There you go.
36:53So this is our character walking and tuning.
36:54Oh, nice, nice.
36:55So you can set the personality of the gates.
36:57Yeah, like, how much sass do you think she has?
37:00Oh, no.
37:01Not that much.
37:02No, she has, like, zero sass.
37:03Especially not with that.
37:03Zero sass, yeah.
37:05She's a clone and everything.
37:06A back stiffness.
37:07She probably has a bit of back stiffness.
37:08Yeah.
37:09Because she's made of wood.
37:10I don't know, actually.
37:11Oh, yeah.
37:11Yeah, yeah.
37:12That's about right.
37:12Her legs are a bit wide apart, aren't they?
37:16Oh, that might be stride length, maybe he brings the legs.
37:21Yeah, potty.
37:22That's what we've got to rock and dance.
37:24Yeah, we've almost won.
37:25Yeah, we've got to change it.
37:26Yeah, the legs going like that.
37:29She don't care.
37:32Cool.
37:32Well, that's, uh.
37:33No, that's cool.
37:35Yeah, I think the hair shape.
37:37What's the background?
37:38What are they doing in the background?
37:40Oh, they're just for support.
37:42Okay, go.
37:43They're friends.
37:46Here they come.
37:47A whole dancing line.
37:49It is.
37:52What are they looking for?
37:54That's really cool.
37:55It's pretty close.
37:57Not bad.
37:57In a weird, in a dream-like way.
37:59In a dream-like way.
38:00Like a slightly bad dream.
38:04I'm sure a lot of people will be making, um, uh, bad dreams as well in dream.
38:08Oh, yeah, like nightmares.
38:09Yeah, exactly.
38:10Yeah, absolutely.
38:11Yeah.
38:12Definitely.
38:13Well, cool, man.
38:14Thank you so much for stopping by.
38:15You can call the sequel Nightmares.
38:17Yeah, basically.
38:18Oh, here we go.
38:19Now.
38:20Oh, there's the instancing.
38:22Oh, that was really cool.
38:23Yeah, well.
38:24Thank you so much, man.
38:24Cheers, and, uh, looking forward to it.
38:26Yeah.
38:26I want to have a play.
38:27Yeah, yeah, yeah.
38:28Definitely.
38:28Oh, that was really cool.
38:28Uh, okay.
Commenti