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00:07We're testing the customer service of Canada's Big Three Telecoms.
00:12This will be my fourth call trying to find resolution with this issue.
00:16From automation.
00:17Ian is having a conversation with the bot.
00:20To disconnection.
00:22They dropped my call.
00:23Insiders reveal the restrictions they face.
00:26I feel the purpose of my job is to manage my metrics.
00:29Not to manage the customer.
00:32Plus, we call up a country that's putting bad customer service on hold.
00:37We want to make sure that the rights that we have as consumers are respected and enforced.
00:42This is your Marketplace.
00:47The phone lines are open.
00:49Coming up today on the phone in.
00:51What's been your customer service experience with telecom providers?
00:55Asha Tomlinson is joining us from a studio in Toronto today.
00:57We're on the Maritime Noon Show with host Bob Murphy.
01:011-800-565-1940 is the number.
01:04Tackling telecom troubles and the customer service headaches that come with them.
01:09He said it looks like it's been charged over and over and over.
01:12$1,580.
01:14Okay.
01:15If you could give us a timeframe of what it took to get your money back.
01:20It was no less than, you know, 10 hours of phone time with back and forth with different people.
01:25Yeah.
01:25Yeah.
01:2510 hours.
01:26That's, I mean, it's a full, that's more than a full workday.
01:29That's a workday plus overtime.
01:30Asha.
01:31I think we have somebody else on the line.
01:32Yeah.
01:32Paul Ratchford in Sydney, Cape Breton.
01:35And I hear you have a beef with Bell.
01:38I do.
01:39Yeah.
01:39My issue was being charged for a count that I didn't have.
01:43All right.
01:44Well, Paul, I mean, what a tale.
01:45Darren Greenlaw in New Brunswick.
01:47How would you rate the customer service experience?
01:50Oh, I'd rate it about a two out of 20.
01:52Two out of 20.
01:54Terrible.
01:55At a time when complaints about our phone, internet and TV services are at an all-time high,
02:01you're telling us customer service is at an all-time low.
02:07Amas Tanouma has got all the intel.
02:10He's spent years running call centers and now advises CEOs across North America on how
02:16to improve their customer care.
02:19Amas, thanks for helping us out.
02:20Thanks for having me.
02:21I cannot think of an issue that unifies people more than this.
02:25He says it's often by design.
02:27Every single part of it is designed to do one thing, not to resolve your issue,
02:33but to save money and preserve revenue for companies.
02:37So what you call bad customer service, they would call deflection.
02:41They would call efficiency.
02:43And you would call that loss of your time.
02:45You would call that rage.
02:47We hear that rage from many Canadians.
02:50Which of these services are you calling about?
02:52So we're testing the customer service of the big three telcos.
02:56Bell, Rogers and Telus.
02:58Hey, everyone.
02:59Welcome to Marketplace's call center.
03:01Hey.
03:02Thanks for being here.
03:03All three testers have an issue they've been trying to get resolved for weeks.
03:08But so far, no luck.
03:10Please remain on the line.
03:12I'm a patient person and it's crazy making.
03:15Vicky Sloot is from Toronto.
03:18She's with Bell.
03:19Her five TV box was recently upgraded and she was promised all the same channels for $5 less a month.
03:26I got the new PVR box the next day and half my channels are gone.
03:31And they won't give me any of my channels back unless I pay an extra at least $25.
03:37Vicky's already spent hours online and on the phone.
03:41She's even escalated to the resolutions team.
03:44But she's still waiting for an answer.
03:46What's your goal for this test today?
03:48I just want my channels back.
03:49It's winter.
03:50It's cold.
03:50We're all snowed in.
03:52And I really just want some of my core channels back.
03:54Kim Piche is also from Toronto.
03:57Her sell plans with Rogers.
03:59Six months ago, her bill goes up $30 when she stops getting a corporate employee discount.
04:04Even though she's still on the job.
04:06Your goal is to get your discount reinstated.
04:09Maybe get a credit.
04:11And if not, then what?
04:13I will go to someone else.
04:15So it's ultimatum day for Rogers.
04:17For me, yeah. Today, yes.
04:18Okay.
04:19We'll see what happens.
04:20And testing TELUS is Ian Bullen from Vancouver.
04:23My mother has been with TELUS probably since 1993 before she passed to the end of August.
04:28Ian wants access to her most recent bill to find a $93 credit from September.
04:34But he doesn't know how it's been paid out.
04:37He's also disputing a $200 charge for unreturned equipment.
04:41But there's no unreturned equipment.
04:44There's not.
04:44It's just hard to get anywhere with them.
04:47You're not going to give up though.
04:48No, I'm not going to give up.
04:50I can't.
04:51I have to.
04:51I'm responsible for wrapping up Mum's Estate.
04:53And I'm going to call them again today.
04:56And we'll see what happens.
04:58So we're hitting the phones and logging into live chat.
05:01We want to know how long will our testers wait?
05:05Will they be stuck on hold or transferred from agent to agent?
05:10I'm on hold.
05:12And will anyone actually solve their problems?
05:15Watching along with us, Amas and Mohamed Halabi.
05:19I've spent like 20 years on the phone is what it feels like.
05:22Founder of mybillsarehigh.com.
05:25Yes, I can hear you.
05:26He negotiates with telcos all the time.
05:28So I feel their frustrations and hopefully today we can resolve it.
05:33Let's find out what happens.
05:35Go ahead.
05:36Start your engines.
05:43Calls made to and from TELUS may be recorded for quality assurance and training purposes.
05:47Which account are you calling about?
05:49The one ending in 766 or 98?
05:53Neither account.
05:54I'm seeing Ian's head begin to nod in disappointment.
05:59It begins.
06:01Yes.
06:02Already.
06:04The frustration.
06:05Ian is having a conversation with the bot.
06:08The bot can't understand him.
06:10Neither account.
06:11I understand.
06:12Is that a personal, EPP, exclusive partner program, business, or corporate account?
06:17No.
06:18With Rogers, Kim actually gets through to an agent within minutes.
06:23And this will be my fourth call trying to find resolution with this issue.
06:27She's been doing this a while.
06:28That's a great tactic to force them to acknowledge the history of this situation.
06:35Right off the bat.
06:35Turns out Kim hits the automated option for sales, not service.
06:40The agent says she'll help.
06:42But I don't want to send you off.
06:43I want to see if we can handle this on the phone.
06:45What do you make of the fact that she went to sales?
06:48The thing people need to realize is companies view service as an expense.
06:53So when you say things that involve money, you get human help.
06:58When you say things that are around service, a cost of money, you're going to be put through the loop.
07:04I'm on hold.
07:05After 25 minutes, Kim gets her $25 discount back.
07:10I've applied it to your account.
07:12Oh, you have?
07:13So now you have.
07:14I have, yes.
07:15So now your plan is $62.50 before taxes.
07:19To be honest, I wasn't prepared for that.
07:21Like, I was prepared to have to do battle again.
07:23You're doing much better than these two over here, yeah.
07:27But her battle's not over yet.
07:30Moving on to Vicky, she tries calling Belle's resolution manager.
07:34Can't get through.
07:35The chat agent can't help.
07:37Neither can the main customer service line.
07:39Hi, I'm calling about an account issue for my Five TV.
07:43Exhausting all her options, she's left waiting for the manager to call her back.
07:48They can't do anything anymore.
07:50So I am locked into this one agent, it seems.
07:54You feel handcuffed right now.
07:55I can't do anything else.
07:56Ian's on the line with TELUS.
07:58Hello?
08:01Hello?
08:03They dropped my call.
08:04You dropped calls?
08:05Just as you said.
08:06They dropped my call.
08:08Okay.
08:09Blood pressure.
08:10Meanwhile, with her discount in hand, Kim is transferred to a customer service rep who
08:15says she can't get a credit for the months she overpaid.
08:18There cannot be any kind of credit that will be refunded.
08:21And that's what I'm disputing.
08:22So Kim makes her case and the frontline rep says she'll see what she can do.
08:26Let me just take a look again with my support team.
08:29While Kim waits.
08:31We're talking to a Rogers employee who handles those types of escalation calls.
08:36We're not identifying him and also altering his voice because he's afraid speaking out
08:41will cost him his job.
08:42How much agency do frontline employees have to help customers when we're talking about issues
08:50with billing, for example?
08:52It decreases constantly.
08:55Frontline reps really don't have the option of crediting accounts anymore.
09:01Is that why so many issues get escalated up to you?
09:04Yeah, definitely.
09:06He says he's getting more calls from outsourced agents who often struggle to solve even the
09:12simplest issues.
09:13That as a person who supports those reps, there will be waves of calls where you can
09:20tell that the people you're talking to are all brand new because their questions are very,
09:25very basic.
09:26And they'll often tell you, this is my first day in the job.
09:28I don't really know anything about this.
09:30They don't have very much experience or knowledge of what to do in those situations.
09:37But it's not just at Rogers.
09:39Tell me, tell me.
09:40You must tell on every call.
09:43This employee, whose voice is also altered because she fears being fired,
09:48has been a customer service rep at TELUS for more than a decade.
09:51So would you say that when you started that you had more agency than where you're at now?
09:58Yes.
09:59Like, totally reduced.
10:01Like, they are locked down on everything.
10:04When I first started, um, the customers, we appreciated them.
10:10I never had any hesitation reducing someone's bill.
10:13Now, she says every credit and refund she gives is closely monitored.
10:19Credits that on a certain level have to be a great plan manager.
10:22I have very many ways.
10:24Back at our Marketplace Call Centre, after 40 minutes, Vicky gets a call back from Bell's resolution manager.
10:31Is it something to do with your TV programming?
10:34She says she's looking into it, which means more waiting for Vicky.
10:38So let me work on this.
10:39It's a waiting game again.
10:40Our experts saw that one coming.
10:43They called that before you even got on the phone.
10:45They said, I bet you she'll say, okay, I'm looking into this.
10:48I'm handling it and then take time.
10:50Oh, yeah.
10:51I was a little shocked because she said, okay, have a great day.
10:53And I thought, aren't you coming back?
10:55Yeah.
10:55Tell me.
10:55How long does this take to look into?
10:57Yeah.
10:58Ian's back on the line with TELUS after his first call disconnects.
11:02They tell him the credit was refunded in December, but the agent isn't sure where that money went.
11:08I just don't know how it was returned or sent to you.
11:12Then 19 minutes in.
11:15Call failed.
11:17Call failed.
11:18I've got two bars.
11:19Happens all the time, especially with TELUS.
11:21I deal with this every day.
11:23What's up with that?
11:24I have no idea, but you would think that a telecom provider would have a really good telecom infrastructure
11:30so their calls won't disconnect on customers.
11:33On Ian's third call, the agent confirms his refund has been issued.
11:38It normally takes about four to six weeks.
11:41And where is it going to be refunded to?
11:44A check refund.
11:46The check's in the mail, they say.
11:48And remember that $200 equipment charge on his late mom's account?
11:52It's automatic once we close the account.
11:55It's now reversed.
11:56So why would it auto-generate a $200 equipment service charge?
12:01It doesn't make sense to me.
12:02Can you explain?
12:11Hello?
12:15Call failed.
12:19Call failed.
12:21The system is designed to frustrate as many people as possible.
12:25So part of the design is that people will give up.
12:28So that you don't have to incur that expense.
12:30Three strikes for TELUS.
12:32But Ian's not giving up.
12:35Yeah.
12:36I'm going to call.
12:36I need to get, I'm trying to get some answers.
12:39So here we go.
12:40Welcome to TELUS.
12:46Coming up, the delays drag on.
12:49Make no mistakes.
12:50There's no hold music, but you're also on hold there too.
12:53You're not going to give up though, are you?
12:54Will the telecoms tackle our testers' issues?
13:07We're testing the customer service of Canada's biggest three telecoms.
13:11Bell, Rogers and TELUS.
13:13Call failed.
13:16Call failed.
13:17And it's not just customers who are speaking out.
13:20Employees are too.
13:26This technician has worked for TELUS for more than two decades.
13:29We're altering his voice because he's still on the job.
13:32TELUS does outsource to contractors.
13:37In general, the quality is pretty poor.
13:40How bad is it?
13:41I will show up less than a month later because something failed.
13:45A brand new install will fail just because of poor workmanship.
13:49So an experienced tech then has to come in and redo or fix the work of these contractors?
13:54I'm doing that two or three times a month at least.
13:57He says techs have high sales targets to meet.
14:01You're expected to upsell customers when you're in a service call or you're trying to fix or install something?
14:08Correct.
14:09And the customer service rep at TELUS says she's also pushed to increase people's bills.
14:15Do you feel at this point in your career that the purpose of your job is to solve customer issues?
14:34At Rogers, this employee says it's the same deal there.
14:38Are reps measured by how much revenue they can add to an account?
14:48So sell and add to their bill, not lower it.
14:52Yeah, they always want to increase what they call ARPA, average revenue per account.
14:59Amas Tanuma has run call centres around the world.
15:03The representatives, the agents are victims of this process as well.
15:07They have a scorecard that can cost them their bonuses and they can cost them their jobs.
15:14And on those scorecards is how long was that call they had with you?
15:18How often are they issuing credits?
15:20There is a long list of metrics that are in conflict with them delivering exactly what you want.
15:29Checking in on our Rogers tester, after an hour and 19 minutes, it's another win for Kim.
15:37I appreciate that.
15:38The Rogers agent can't give Kim a refund, but she'll give her two months free service.
15:45Okay, I'm doing the math in my head.
15:46Yeah, I can take that.
15:47That's a compromise.
15:48Done.
15:50What a waste of a day.
15:52Done, I know.
15:53Kim, man.
15:54Get it.
15:55A great result for you, for sure.
15:57I don't know what to say.
15:58It's just like I'm speechless.
16:00But it's just good customer service.
16:02It should be that way.
16:04Absolutely.
16:04I agree 100%.
16:06Rogers says they notified Kim last summer that her discount needed to be renewed.
16:11They say they have an intensive training program for new agents, that they do take people's feedback and they continue
16:18to improve the customer experience.
16:21But still, no victory for Vicky.
16:24More than three hours later, her Bell case manager is done for the day with no call back.
16:29But make no mistakes, there's no hold music, but you're also on hold there too.
16:33You're not going to give up though, are you?
16:34I hope not.
16:37Doesn't sound confident, Vicky.
16:39Maybe we'll talk in a year.
16:40The same day we tell Bell about Vicky, they reach out to her, give her a $30 discount off her
16:46monthly bill.
16:46Bell tells us they didn't live up to their commitments in Vicky's case.
16:51And add, they're investing in the customer experience.
16:54And any assertion that they design their operations to avoid resolving issues is simply not true.
17:01As for Ian, he's on his fourth call with TELUS.
17:05It was credited and completed on December 17th.
17:10And he learns his credit isn't a cheque.
17:13It was deposited into one of his bank accounts months ago.
17:17So several calls and plenty of confusion later, his mom's TELUS account is now closed.
17:23Zero balance.
17:25He says the process to get here should never be this hard.
17:28It's just frustrating.
17:30I don't have time for this.
17:32People don't have time for this.
17:34TELUS confirms they refunded the account and paid out the credit in December.
17:38They say they're reviewing frontline training to ensure they address customer concerns promptly.
17:44The Canadian Telecommunications Association says their providers continue to invest in improving service and work to resolve concerns fairly and
17:54directly.
17:55For the bigger picture, we're in Ottawa to meet Jose Bidal Thibault, the commissioner responsible for resolving telecom complaints.
18:04This past year, we received a record number of complaints, over 23,000 of them.
18:09Topping the list, billing beefs like incorrect charges and missing credits.
18:15We hear the same from Canadians who email us.
18:17It's clear that customer frustration exists, that there are complaints out there that need to be handled and there is
18:24an opportunity to do better.
18:26She says the majority of complaints get resolved within 20 days.
18:31But what they can't handle?
18:33All those dropped calls and long wait times.
18:36The quality of customer service isn't in your mandate, but should it be?
18:40That would be fully within the purview of the regulator and our job is to be transparent about the things
18:46that we're seeing, what the pain points are, what the frustration is.
18:54Coming up, we take you to a country putting customers at the front of the queue.
18:58That will change the everyday life of millions of consumers.
19:02And ask why Canadians are left on hold.
19:15Canada's biggest telcos are dropping the ball on customer service.
19:19They can't do anything anymore.
19:21So, I am locked into this one agent, it seems.
19:25You feel handcuffed right now.
19:26I can't do anything else.
19:27But Spain may have the key.
19:29The country recently passed a law that goes into effect within the year and means customers are not left waiting.
19:37Here, large companies, including telecoms, must answer calls within three minutes, resolve issues within 15 days.
19:48Pablo Bustendui is the Consumer Affairs Minister who championed the law.
19:52This will be a revolution.
19:54It's a small thing that will change the everyday life of millions of consumers.
19:58We have grown used to the idea that when we citizens interact with powerful corporations, with very big companies, well,
20:05that they have enough power to establish what are the rules of economic life and commercial life.
20:11Well, we want to make that relation a little bit more balanced and make sure that the rights that we
20:16have as consumers are respected and enforced.
20:19If companies don't follow this law, they'll face steep fines.
20:22And when there's a lack of competition like there is here in Canada, many Canadians tell us they feel powerless.
20:29They do feel like they have no other choice. Their hands are tied.
20:33Exactly. Everybody does the same. That's why we need action from the government.
20:37Acting to make sure that if they don't modify their practices, well, they pay a price.
20:43The telecommunications regulator, the CRTC, says they take customer service complaints seriously.
20:49And they're keeping an eye on Spain to see if it could shape policy here in Canada.
20:54We asked Industry Minister Melanie Jolie for an on-camera or phone interview.
20:59Her office tells us she's not available.
21:02They don't answer our questions about Spain or setting a standard for customer service in this country.
21:08But in a statement, they say people who aren't happy can always switch to another provider.
21:15So for now, Canadians are left on the line.
21:19And on their own.
21:21So we're very unhappy.
21:22Told them it was absolutely not acceptable.
21:25It sounds like you spent many, many hours trying to get to the bottom of it.
21:28So many issues, so little time, eh, Bob?
21:30Thanks very much for closing out the hour with us.
21:33And Asha, thanks for joining us as well.
21:35And that is the show for today.
21:39Next week, a special one-hour season finale.
21:43Hello. Hi.
21:44What's wrong with your rights?
21:46We have designed a show all about testing how ready you all are to be a consumer watchdog.
21:53It's part game show.
21:54Is that true or false?
21:55True. It's false.
21:56Part social experiment.
21:58Our teams will have three minutes to figure out the answer.
22:02And they will determine if it is real or AI.
22:07And ask, who's really protecting what's yours?
22:10So what is your message to Canadians who are saying the government needs to do more?
22:14There's kind of two sides of the equation.
22:16It's the competition side and the consumer protection side.
22:18And we need to know more on both.
22:20Next week, only on Your Marketplace.
22:27These, the combination and no one to click on to數, the combination of six conferences that only prove you that
22:30dropping your finger over the corner.
22:30Not too much or mobile.