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TVTranscript
00:12they didn't start out as killers they were stick-up artists professional shoplifters
00:20pickpockets and stand-over guys the bottom rungs of the Melbourne underworld ladder
00:27but somewhere along the line it all changed when the underworld needed contract killers
00:34they signed up without hesitation there are five million stories in the naked city this is one of
00:52them it was a very very clinical clean execution of two people in their own home it wasn't committed
01:01by the people that we'd been tracking so closely they weren't part of this murder so who was pillows
01:08had been placed over their heads to muffle the shots from the heavy caliber handgun you know in
01:13its own way it was bizarre we didn't know what the target was we're talking about armed offenders
01:19serious armed robbers that's what they did for a living moving on to be hitman is just an extension
01:24of that because it's easy money for them pick up a gun take a contract out who do we know
01:30that would
01:31be able to provide the information we needed bow in prison goes into lockdown one thing you could
01:38say about tail Williams was he just knew so much the piranha task force has been digging for days we
01:46had
01:46an archaeologist with us cadaver dogs and we searched everywhere Carl Williams was the cornerstone of the
01:53case if Carl Williams is talking what is he going to say about me without Carl Williams there was no
02:01case
02:27I went through uniform general duties and I loved it in the late 70s early 80s most general duties
02:37police officers aspired to become detectives and I was I was one of those
02:45and I became exposed to the homicide squad detectives and I was just so impressed by them
02:54the way that they would turn up to a murder scene their professionalism and I watched them do their
03:03thing and that was probably what convinced me that this is what I wanted to do
03:17My name is Sarah Morse and I'm a detective inspector currently in charge of our human source management unit
03:22I worked with Sol Solomon at the petra task force and Sol was a great person to learn from we
03:30would
03:30travel around Victoria going to speak to older criminals and Sol would have a story for every
03:35town that we went through about you know particular murders he'd investigated in every town so it was
03:40always very interesting to work with soul secrets of the past had laid dormant until now Carl Williams the
03:56self-declared premier was behind bars he was serving life with a 35-year non-parole period a sentence made
04:04heavier
04:05by the fact that those once closest to him had turned witness in the end the code meant little they
04:13lined up to testify
04:15trading loyalty for leniency but Carl wasn't done if flipping worked for them he figured it might work for him
04:25too
04:25With Carl's information cold cases could be reopened leads revisited and missing pieces found providing critical breakthroughs in these mysteries
04:39of Melbourne's underworld
04:44Look, look now can we see you? here we are
04:55Terry Hodson, Terry was a larger than life character
05:00he was his big
05:02affable sort of a guy it was
05:04quick-witted like to tell jokes
05:08he lived with his wife christine they had three children was well liked by people that knew him
05:17but he was a he was a major drug dealer a main player in the drug scene and he was
05:24also a
05:25prolific police informer for the drug squad he was playing both sides of the fence
05:37he was involved in the dublin street burglary a house where drugs were being manufactured
05:44it came under the notice of the drug squad they were watching it for quite some time
05:50terry hodson and another fellow broke in looking for money and drugs
05:57terry hodson's arrested at the scene after he was arrested for the burglary in dublin street
06:04he provided a statement to victoria police because some further information had
06:10come to light indicating that there was police involvement in it
06:18in that statement he nominated the two police members were behind the plant to
06:22burglary the house where the drugs were made paul dale was a detective sergeant at the drug squad
06:29part of his team was dave michel terence hodson had been a police informer for dave michel and paul dale
06:39all that information from terence hodson was contained in what was known as his informer file
06:44and his informer file had been stolen from the drug squad office where it was kept by paul dale
06:50and had been circulated throughout the criminal community simon overland is dealing with rats in
06:57his own ranks people sometimes let you down and that's what's happened here police say at least
07:02one officer is behind the leaks terence hodson had been exposed as a police informer which put his life
07:12at risk there were a large amount of people who knew that terence hodson had been providing information
07:17about them to the police which meant there was a large amount of people who had a motive to harm
07:22terence hodson criminals do inform other criminals but it's a highly risky business informing to police
07:33he was offered witness protection but he didn't uh he didn't want it terence and christine hodson were
07:41really committed to staying in their own home and didn't accept any help from the police about
07:45relocating or changing their names or moving interstate just didn't want to be part of it
07:53he took his chances we were called to a double murder in harp road queue it was a very very
08:16clinical
08:17clean execution of two people in their own home they were both found lying side by side on their
08:26stomachs with their hands out in front of them and they'd both been executed by way of shots to the
08:35back of their head nothing was disturbed in the house no forced entry I realized
08:47that it would take a very very unique killer to be able to get himself into someone's home and I
08:57thought to myself well who who do we know that would be able of pulling a job off like that
09:17I recall a terrible double murder in 1987 a couple by the names of Dorothy and Raymond Abbey
09:29Raymond Abbey was known to police for relatively minor matters and his wife Dorothy was the homemaker
09:39they were murdered in the middle of the night by three people dressed up as police getting entry to the
09:50house by saying that they had a search warrant the Abbey murders had taken place because Abbey was
09:57suspected to have been an informant for the police pillows had been placed over their heads to muffle the
10:06sound of a number of shots from what police believe was a heavy caliber handgun both were in night attire
10:12and there was no sign of a struggle it was horrific but as it turned out they just never got
10:20the evidence
10:23looking at the nature of the oddsons and the abbeys nothing was disturbed in the house no forced entry and
10:32they'd both been executed the MO was so similar one day I was at home and I was reading the
10:42age and you'd written an article about
10:45Rodney Collins and I was reading through the article and as I'm reading through the article it suddenly dawned on
10:56me Rodney Collins we should be looking at Rodney Collins
11:05Rodney Collins was a bit of an enigma very difficult to work out and someone that you should never turn
11:13your back on
11:14he clearly had the reputation as a gun for hire and would do it for money
11:21he had immense disliking of police but an absolute hatred of police informers
11:27Rod Collins is a person who only was interested in Rod Collins and what he could do to manipulate people
11:32around him
11:33I never felt at ease in his company
11:36I always felt as if he was trying to get into my head
11:40he was a cocky little man that's for sure
11:43he had no fear at all
11:45he's a narcissist
11:46he believes he's the smartest person in the room
11:49he did not care about the suffering of another person
11:52he only cared about himself
11:55he has absolutely no sympathy or empathy for anything
12:07still to come in the naked city
12:11the execution of Terence and Christine Hodson ties together police corruption and some of Victoria's most infamous criminals
12:18Carl Williams is talking and some very serious criminals started to wonder am I at risk
12:25it may be the breakthrough that solves a 10 year old gangland murder mystery
12:30he's the only person that would be able to pull something off like that
12:33would have the nerve to do it
12:35that's what he wanted to do more than anything else
12:38he had a hatred of the police
12:40nobody frightened me in a courtroom
12:42until he did
12:49Carl had started to talk
12:51and when Carl talked
12:53detectives listened
12:54he was sitting on information that could rattle the foundations of several major investigations
13:01none more explosive than the murders of Terence and Christine Hodson
13:08the Hodsons were shot dead in their queue home
13:11both were shot twice at close range to the back of the head
13:14found face down in front of the couch
13:17Terence Hodson was due to give evidence against two former detectives
13:21before Hodson was executed
13:25but the leafy eastern suburb of Kew had more than one investigation on the go
13:30just down the road another case was being worked on from five months earlier
13:35and it too had Carl's handiwork written all over it
13:3862 year old career criminal Graeme Allen Kinneborough arrived at his home in Belmont Avenue Kew
13:44just after midnight when he was shot several times
13:48Graeme Kinneborough's murder was a significant escalation in the war
13:52he was one of the most respected criminals in Melbourne
13:55he was part of the establishment and a good friend of Mick Gatto
14:01Graeme Kinneborough had been out shopping and was coming home
14:04and as he pulled up towards his house
14:06two gunmen emerged and shot him dead
14:11obviously saw the criminals coming at him and fired one shot before they mowed him down
14:18it looked like a professional hit
14:22Graeme Kinneborough's murder was not an easy one to solve
14:25it wasn't committed by the people that we'd been tracking so closely
14:30and ultimately that became a cold case
14:33I was given the investigation when I arrived at Piranha
14:42this was really different because there wasn't a great amount of witnesses
14:45there were people who had gunshots
14:47but nobody really saw somebody in the street that night
14:50so the investigation relied heavily on a statement from the runner
14:56who had been arrested and charged with several murders
15:00and then decided to become a police witness
15:03most statements that we take from people
15:05we do then set out to corroborate independently as well
15:09in his statement he says that he was actually tasked by Carl Williams
15:13to kill Graeme Kinneborough
15:15but he had several other murders on the go at the time
15:18that he was also planning
15:19and so in the end he outsourced or subcontracted this murder
15:23to Terence Bluart and Stephen Asley
15:28Stephen Asley was a very violent career criminal
15:32he had spent very little time outside of prison
15:34he had committed offences from a very early age
15:38it does seem to be a training ground
15:40that you would start with armed robbery
15:42and very easily progress to murder
15:49My name's Bruce Knight
15:51I was a member of the Victoria Police from 1973 to 2010
15:55of that time I had 18 years with the Special Operations Group
16:03The primary role of the Special Operations Group was counter-terrorism and deal with high-risk offenders
16:12or do tasks that were beyond the capability
16:16of other members of the Victoria Police
16:19Members of the Special Operations Group have a variety of skills
16:23weapons skills, entry technique, surveillance, communication
16:28so they can carry out any duties that do come up
16:40Early July 1992
16:42Victoria Police approaches for Operation Thorn
16:48to work on Normie Lee, Stephen Barchi and Stephen Asley
16:54who they suspected were going to commit armed robberies
16:57Surveillance had been following them
17:00and they'd shown interest in Tullamarine
17:02and went out there and would surveil and watch the ants at freight terminal
17:11We had 21 SOG members deployed in a variety of locations
17:17The offenders parked adjacent to the front of the ants at air freight
17:22We saw an armour guard truck drive into the air freight terminal
17:26and back up to the front door
17:29and they were unloading bags out the back of the armoured car
17:35Two men with masks on were seen running towards the armoured car
17:41They then grabbed a bag each of money
17:43and a white panel van reversed up
17:47The offenders with masks and guns were out of the armour guard van
17:51heading towards the white forward panel van
17:54I gave the order for them to be intercepted
17:59Asling then floored the car
18:00As he took off with such haste, Normie Lee and Barchi fell out of the back of the van
18:06stumbled to the ground, jumped up, surrounded by SOG members
18:11They then pointed their weapons at the SOG members
18:14and both were shot
18:18Asling took off in the van
18:21One of the SOG vehicles could see the white panel van approaching them
18:25They crossed the median strip and rammed the white Ford panel van head on
18:31at a speed of about 80 kilometres an hour
18:35He was bounced around in the car
18:38They got him out, put him on the ground and handcuffed him
18:47Just before 2pm, two bandits entered the ANSET freight terminal
18:51adjoining the main airport complex and ordered two armour guard personnel
18:55and several staff to lie on the floor
18:57The robbers, armed with magnum revolvers and wearing rubber masks
19:01seized a large amount of cash and were leaving the building when police swooped
19:08Barchi was wounded several times
19:10and Normie Lee was hit twice
19:13Normie Lee subsequently died at the scene
19:17Barchi was taken to hospital for treatment for gunshot wounds
19:22In the back of the white panel van
19:24they had two military semi-automatic assault rifle
19:27We believe that their plan was
19:30if they'd been followed by anybody
19:32they would have just kicked the back door of the van open
19:34and open up on whoever was behind them
19:3832-year-old Stephen John Asley
19:41one of the alleged bandits in yesterday's
19:43swarted million-dollar cash and gold bullion robbery
19:45appeared in the city court today
19:49A number of armed robbers, as their confidence grows
19:52go on to bigger and better things
19:54and I think moving on to be hitmen
19:57is just an extension of that
19:58because it's easy money for them
20:06Stephen Asling is similar to Rod Collins in that sense of paranoia
20:09that he always believed that he was being followed and targeted by the police
20:13He had a hatred of the police
20:15and would definitely kill somebody for money
20:22In the early 80s in Melbourne
20:24the main thing that crooks were looking for was fast money
20:28It's all about armed robberies
20:30quick money from banks
20:32who probably didn't have the security that they've got nowadays
20:41Crooks in those days would gravitate to that easy money
20:43and Rod Collins was one of those
20:48I'd got word that he was so-called tooling up to do a job of some description
20:53no idea what
20:58We followed Rod to a place in St Kilda
21:04Another car rolls up with two other people
21:07so we got this nest of crooks gathering together
21:12There were four of them
21:14and they were all well-known, serious armed robbers
21:18that's what they did for a living
21:19and they had decided, big plan, they were going to take out a bank
21:26It lives forever in my memory
21:28because it was so spectacularly bad and idiotic
21:31They follow in convoy in two cars to the Ringwood area
21:36In Maroondah Highway, Ringwood
21:38there's a group of banks all together
21:41so we put some surveillance there
21:43We had our SAG team to take them out
21:47if they did something wrong
21:48We had several teams out there watching
21:51They were proceeding that way when the surveillance units lost them
21:55And they just got a bit distracted
21:58so they let the time go past
22:01and then they were running a bit late
22:05They dropped one car around the corner
22:07and drove to the back of the bank
22:10They break into the bank
22:12and they're going to take out all of the safety deposit boxes
22:16But they didn't get anything because they'd closed down for the day
22:19So they left there and went back to where the other car was
22:24The police, meantime, send in what is known as the Soggies
22:29which is a special operations group near the guys that go
22:33and come in and cause maximum damage
22:37And as they went to change getaway cars
22:40we pounced on them and arrested them
22:43They did just that
22:45They arrested them with force, one could say
22:49The photos that we had for the court showed all of them with black eyes
22:56They had torn clothes
22:58Their pants were down around their ankles
23:01They'd stripped them down
23:04The court literally with their pants down
23:09Having a look at them in the photos
23:11They hadn't had a good day
23:14In those days
23:15I think they felt
23:17I were professional crooks
23:18We were the professional police
23:21This is business
23:24And Rod was the same
23:26He had no fear
23:27He didn't care too much about going to jail
23:31Being caught
23:32Didn't worry him at all
23:38We had other encounters along the way
23:41Rod Collins and me
23:44I was present when a search warrant was executed in his house
23:50The warrant was for firearms
23:53And I sat with him at the kitchen table
23:55He had a thing where he'd call me Solly all the time
24:01Which is a little on the disrespectful side
24:04But I didn't mind
24:05It's good to keep on talking terms with people like Collins
24:10But I suddenly became conscious of the way he was
24:13The way he was sitting at that table
24:16And the look that he was giving me
24:17And it all seemed a bit strange
24:19And I had this feeling
24:20And I looked under the table
24:22And got the shock of my life
24:25When I saw
24:26He had a handgun
24:28It was pointed directly at me
24:30The whole time
24:34He clearly had the reputation
24:35As a gun for hire
24:37And easy money for someone who has no conscience
24:40Is to pick up a gun
24:41And take a contract out
24:43That's what he wanted to do
24:44More than anything else
24:46He was always a suspect for the Abbeys
24:49Always
24:49And to my mind
24:51It was number one for the Hodgson's murders
24:55Number one, for sure
24:57And right from the word go
24:59You could see it was his MO
25:00And it was just about getting the evidence
25:04There's a big difference between knowing
25:06And then proving it in court
25:07As I'm sure most people are aware of
25:11In my view
25:12Collins is the only person
25:13That would be able to pull something off like that
25:16Would have the nerve to do it
25:20So I mentioned it to the team
25:24And we decided that we'd have a look at Rodney Collins
25:31As Cole's stature grew
25:33We actually had people coming to him
25:35Offering their services as hitmen
25:39We know Rod Collins felt quite left out
25:42And he said to Carl on one particular day
25:45Hey, I'm willing to do whatever you need me to do
25:48Just bring me in
25:52Fairly soon
25:53We were able to link Rodney Collins
25:56To Carl Williams
25:58Carl Williams was meeting Rodney Collins
26:01And having walk and talks
26:04Less than a week later
26:06The day before
26:07He was going to give evidence
26:09Terry and Christine were dead
26:19Carl Williams, as you expect
26:22Was in maximum security
26:23He didn't have access
26:25To a lot of other prisoners
26:27He was kept
26:27In what was
26:29Pretty much isolated detention
26:31He had one or two others
26:33In the cell with him
26:34At any one particular time
26:36He wasn't a particularly strong individual
26:39And to survive in jail
26:41He needed to surround himself
26:43With people who were stronger
26:44And perhaps
26:46More experienced jailhouse enforcers
26:49He chose Tommy Ivanovich
26:52And Matthew Johnson
26:54People he thought he could trust
27:00Lex Lasry
27:02Former barrister
27:03Former Supreme Court judge in Victoria
27:06Matthew Johnson was a very imposing man
27:08And in its own way
27:10It was bizarre
27:11Because he was in a high security section
27:14Of Barwon with Williams
27:16But he has a very strong view
27:18About people who give information to the police
27:22One thing you could say about
27:24Carl Williams was
27:26If there was one person
27:28Who knew about it
27:29He knew about all of it
27:32He'd been all the way along
27:34Complaining about people
27:36Giving evidence about him
27:37He suddenly decided
27:40That perhaps he could get on this
27:41And get a reduced sentence
27:43By giving evidence
27:44Against a police officer
27:46And he started to
27:48Make a deal
27:49And make statements
27:50To do just that
27:51In exchange for telling police
27:53This information
27:54He'd be eligible
27:55For a $1 million reward
27:57For solving the Hodson's murders
27:59And crucially
28:00Police would support his appeal
28:02To have his 35 year sentence
28:04Potentially cut
28:06By up to 15 years
28:08And it was
28:09It was only ever going to be
28:10Another criminal
28:11Like Carl Williams
28:12That was going
28:13To be able to provide
28:14The information we needed
28:16So that was a big breakthrough
28:18And the case just got stronger
28:20Against Rodney Collins
28:22Detective Senior Sergeant
28:24Sol Solomon
28:25Was central to the attempt
28:26To prosecute one of his own
28:28Paul Dale
28:29Over the execution
28:30Of Terence Hodgson
28:31And his wife
28:32He had Carl Williams
28:34Taken from prison
28:35To interview him
28:38Carl Williams
28:39Finally
28:40Admitted to us
28:41That yes
28:42He was approached
28:43By someone
28:45Who I won't name
28:47Who wanted
28:48Terry Hodgson dead
28:49And offered up
28:51Some money
28:52To have it done
28:54Carl Williams
28:55Then told us
28:56That he approached
28:57Rodney Collins
28:58To see if he was interested
29:00In doing the job
29:01And Collins
29:03Took the contract
29:05It's very difficult
29:06To trust someone
29:06Like Carl Williams
29:07We look to see
29:08What phone records
29:09We might have
29:10Or what even
29:11Surveillance
29:12Information we would have
29:13That corroborates
29:14The movements
29:15And the things
29:15That Carl Williams
29:16Said he did
29:19Whilst we were
29:20Working on Collins
29:22He was being
29:23Looked at
29:24For the Abbey murders
29:26But
29:26He got away with it
29:29One of the things
29:30I thought
29:31We may
29:33Be able to use
29:35To our advantage
29:35Is to reopen
29:37The case
29:38Against the Abbeys
29:40And see
29:41If we can
29:42Progress it
29:43Further
29:44Than what the
29:45Original investigators
29:46Did
29:50We reopened
29:52The Abbey
29:53Double murder
29:54Investigation
29:56We utilised
29:57Some electronic
29:59Surveillance
29:59On Collins
30:00And Collins'
30:02Girlfriend at the time
30:04She was speaking
30:05To Collins
30:06During visits
30:07And Collins
30:08Was saying
30:10Things to her
30:10Making
30:12Admissions
30:12That he was
30:13Involved
30:14In the Abbey murders
30:14That he'd done it
30:17And we were able
30:18To hear what was
30:18Being said
30:20We managed
30:21To get
30:22Three or four
30:23Of Collins'
30:24Prisoner buddies
30:25That he served
30:25Time with
30:26To come forward
30:27And make
30:29Statements
30:29That Collins
30:30Had actually
30:30Made admissions
30:31That he'd murdered
30:33The Abbeys
30:35There was an offender
30:36Called Mark McConville
30:37When he was
30:38In prison
30:39For another matter
30:40And he was dying
30:40He made a statement
30:42And he implicated
30:43Himself and Rod Collins
30:44In the murder
30:45Of Dot and Ray Abbey
30:46But because
30:47He wasn't able
30:48To give that evidence
30:50Because he ultimately
30:51Died
30:51We set about
30:52Corroborating
30:53Every aspect
30:54Of Mark McConville's
30:55Statement
30:55For the murder
30:56Of Dot and Ray Abbey
30:57That implicated
30:58Rod Collins
31:00We were able
31:00To progress
31:01It to a point
31:02Where we got
31:03What we needed
31:04It was an amazing
31:06Result
31:07When you think
31:08Of it
31:08You know
31:09To be able
31:09To reopen
31:10A case
31:10After so many
31:11Years
31:11And to get
31:13The evidence
31:14Any cold
31:15Case murder
31:16Especially a double
31:17Murder
31:18That's solved
31:19You know
31:20Gives the public
31:21A lot of confidence
31:22And we did it
31:23Purely
31:24To try
31:25And get into
31:25Collins' head
31:26To see
31:27If we can
31:27Get him
31:28To say
31:28Something
31:28To incriminate
31:29Him
31:29For the Hodson
31:30Murders
31:32We decided
31:32To go
31:33And arrest
31:33Rod Collins
31:34In Fairfield
31:35For the Abbey
31:36Murders
31:38It was decided
31:39That we would
31:39Just make the arrest
31:40And do the search
31:41No SOG
31:43Would be used
31:43And it would
31:44Be a fairly
31:44Low level
31:46Knock on the door
31:47And take him
31:48Into custody
31:49It was
31:50Extremely risky
31:51But
31:52We'd stand
31:53A better chance
31:53To get something
31:54Out of him
31:55Not necessarily
31:56That day
31:56But maybe
31:57In the future
32:05This is what
32:06We found
32:06In his little
32:07Flat
32:07It's his little
32:08One better
32:09A 45
32:10Semi-auto
32:11Loaded
32:14Australian Federal
32:15Police
32:15Target profile
32:16A document
32:17That had
32:17About 60 pages
32:18That contained
32:19Hundreds of names
32:22Car numbers
32:23Addresses
32:23I've no doubt
32:24One of those
32:25Names on that
32:26List
32:26Was his next
32:28Target
32:28Binoculars
32:30Night vision
32:31Gear
32:32Ballistic vest
32:34He had a
32:34Surveillance device
32:35You pointed in
32:37A direction
32:37And you could
32:38Hear what's
32:38Being said
32:39From long
32:39Distance
32:41He had
32:41Portable
32:42Two-way
32:42Radios
32:43He had a
32:44Government
32:44Frequency book
32:46So he could
32:47Patch into
32:48He knows what
32:49Frequency police
32:49And other
32:50Government agencies
32:51Are working on
32:54Balaclava
32:54Mask
32:55Weak
32:56And he had
32:57These collapsible
32:58Adjustable mirrors
32:59That you can see
33:01Around corners
33:02Now I would call
33:03That a
33:04Pretty good
33:06Assassin's kit
33:10Finally
33:11We got
33:12Collins
33:12For the
33:13Abbey murders
33:14Now we had
33:15To try
33:16And get
33:16Into
33:17Collins'
33:17Head
33:17To
33:18Incriminate
33:18Him
33:19For the
33:19Hodson murders
33:22The execution
33:24Of Melbourne
33:24Couple
33:24Terence
33:25And Christine
33:25Hodson
33:26Eight years
33:27Ago
33:27Ties together
33:28Police corruption
33:29And some of
33:29Victoria's
33:30Most infamous
33:31Criminals
33:32Collins has
33:33Now been
33:33Returned
33:34From the
33:34Melbourne
33:35Custody
33:35Centre
33:36To
33:36Barwin
33:36Prison
33:38I had
33:39About
33:39Five
33:40Meetings
33:41With him
33:41At
33:42Barwin
33:43Prison
33:44The way
33:45I got
33:45To him
33:46Was just
33:46He liked
33:47To have
33:47His ego
33:47Stroked
33:48And he
33:49He had
33:49A saying
33:50He used
33:50To say
33:51Just remember
33:52One thing
33:53I hold
33:53All the aces
33:54And I can
33:55Remember
33:55Those words
33:56Every time
33:57I would go
33:58And see him
33:58He would
33:58Always say
33:59I hold
34:00All the aces
34:02And then I
34:02Would ask
34:03Him questions
34:05Like you know
34:05Who do you
34:06Think would
34:07Be capable
34:07Of committing
34:08A crime
34:09Like the
34:10Hodson's
34:10Double murder
34:11Because it
34:12Was done
34:12By somebody
34:13Very professional
34:14Very cool
34:15Very clinical
34:17He'd smile
34:18And say
34:18Yes
34:18That's
34:19Right soul
34:19It was
34:20And he
34:21He reminded
34:22Me that
34:22You know
34:23He holds
34:23All the aces
34:25And we
34:26Eventually charged
34:28Him
34:28With killing
34:30Christine
34:31And Terry
34:31Hodson
34:39He was in court
34:42And myself
34:43And some other
34:44Detectives were down
34:45Executing a search
34:46Warrant
34:47Warrant
34:47In his cell
34:49When he got
34:50Back to his cell
34:50That night
34:51And he found
34:52Under his pillow
34:54The ace of spades
34:55From the playing cards
34:58He was not very happy
34:59About that
35:00He's not very happy
35:01About that at all
35:12So Carl Williams
35:13So Carl Williams is in jail
35:14He's now become
35:16Known publicly
35:17It's in the paper
35:18That he's informing
35:19To the police
35:20Supposedly about
35:21Corrupt police officers
35:23But for others
35:24They're starting to say
35:26Well he knows
35:27What I've done
35:28And some very serious
35:29Criminals
35:30Started to wonder
35:31Am I at risk
35:33So there's two things
35:34One he's in jail
35:36With Matthew Johnson
35:37A guy that hates police
35:38In fullness
35:39And two
35:40There's other people
35:41On the outside
35:41Worried like hell
35:43About what he's talking
35:44About to the police
35:45All of a sudden
35:47He's in grave danger
35:57Carl's testimony
35:58Is critical
35:58To a conclusion
35:59In the Hodson case
36:00But the pressure
36:02Around it
36:03Has been ramping up
36:04Reaching crisis point
36:06The word of a man
36:08Who knows it all
36:09Is invaluable
36:11But word spreads
36:12Fast in the underworld
36:13And fear
36:14Even faster
36:20There'd been a lot
36:21Of media publicity
36:22At the time
36:23Around the fact
36:24That Carl Williams
36:25Was getting a lot
36:27Of benefits
36:29He was in
36:30With two particular
36:31Individuals
36:32And there was
36:32Pressure being brought
36:33To bear upon them
36:34To get themselves
36:36Moved from that
36:37Unit
36:38Because to stay there
36:39With Carl any longer
36:41Would mean that
36:41They are tarred
36:43With the same feathers
36:43As Carl
36:44That is a police
36:45Informer
36:45So Carl's days
36:47Renumbed
36:49Coming forward
36:50To give evidence
36:51Against Dale
36:52You might think
36:53That that's how
36:54He would
36:55Salve his conscience
36:56I'm just giving evidence
36:57Against a policeman
36:58But he just knew
37:00So much
37:01There must have been
37:02People who feared
37:03That if he got
37:04Into the witness box
37:05Almost anything
37:06Could come out
37:09If Carl Williams is talking
37:11What danger
37:12Does he pose for me
37:13So I don't care
37:14If he gives evidence
37:15Against a police officer
37:16But what if he decides
37:17To give evidence
37:18Against me
37:19And there's no doubt
37:20In my mind
37:21Those concerned people
37:22From the outside
37:23Had conversations
37:25With people
37:26On the inside
37:31One of the most
37:34Intimidating characters
37:36I think I've ever dealt
37:37With was Matthew Johnson
37:41I have never seen
37:42Anyone of his size
37:44Or his ferocity
37:46He'd been up on a charge
37:48Of murder
37:48In front of me
37:49And he actually gave evidence
37:50So he was really
37:51Up close to me
37:53He had a look
37:54Of malevolence
37:55That I've not seen
37:57Before or since
37:58He was charged
38:00With killing a man
38:02By setting fire to him
38:04Having made a funeral pyre
38:07On which he could
38:08Place the body
38:09Poured petrol
38:11Down his throat
38:12Slit
38:13His chest open
38:14So he could get more in
38:16And then through a match
38:17It was supposedly
38:19The motive was
38:20That he owed him
38:20Twenty dollars
38:21For cannabis
38:23Nobody frightened me
38:24In a courtroom
38:25Until he did
38:26He's the scariest man
38:28I think I've ever
38:29Come across
38:43Carl Williams
38:44He was in the
38:45Common area
38:47Reading a copy
38:48Of the Herald Sun
38:49The tables in the
38:51Centre of the room
38:51On the front page
38:52Of the Herald Sun
38:53That day
38:54Which he was reading
38:55Was the story
38:56About the assistance
38:57The government
38:57Were giving him
38:58For his children's
39:00Private school fees
39:02And at that stage
39:04There were a lot
39:05Of rumblings
39:07In the unit
39:08That Carl was in
39:10Tom was just
39:11Walking around
39:12In the unit
39:14And the next thing
39:15That anybody knew
39:17Matty Johnson
39:18Had removed
39:19A seat post
39:20From an exercise
39:21Bike
39:23Hit it in his cell
39:25And at an opportune
39:26Moment
39:27Came up
39:27Behind Carl Williams
39:29Matthew Johnson
39:29Standing behind Williams
39:30With a seat post
39:31In his hand
39:34And bludgeoned him
39:35And bludgeoned him
39:35To death
39:35As he was reading
39:36The paper
39:40And Carl was
39:41Probably dead
39:42Before he fell
39:42Off the chair
39:43And hit the floor
39:47And that other fellow
39:48Was there
39:50Turned his back
39:51And just
39:51Didn't watch it
39:54So that's what
39:55Happened there
40:00Carl's lying dead
40:01On the floor
40:0310, 15 minutes
40:04Goes past
40:06Johnson and Ivanovic
40:07Are walking around
40:08Waiting for someone
40:08To come
40:09No one came
40:11Eventually
40:11Johnson I think
40:13Got on the phone
40:14And said something like
40:15I think Carl's
40:17Had a bit of a problem
40:17You better send somebody
40:18But don't send a woman
40:20Because he didn't want
40:21Any women to see
40:22The gory mess
40:23That he'd made
40:24Of Carl Williams
40:26Barwon prison
40:28Goes into lockdown
40:29As a steady stream
40:30Of homicide detectives
40:31Arrive
40:32To investigate the death
40:33Of notorious
40:34Underworld kingpin
40:35Carl Williams
40:36The face of Melbourne's
40:38Bloody and long running
40:39Gangland war
40:40Where he was serving
40:40A minimum
40:4135 year sentence
40:42For three underworld murders
40:44Despite the efforts
40:46Of paramedics
40:46He could not be revived
40:47He was pronounced dead
40:49At 1.47pm
40:54Talk us through
40:55The murder
40:56Of Carl Williams
40:58Do you remember that?
41:00I can indeed
41:01I was sitting
41:02In court
41:03And my
41:05Associate
41:07Stood up
41:08Put a note
41:09In front of me
41:09And said
41:11Carl Williams
41:11Murdered
41:12Whatever time it was
41:15And I wrote a note
41:17Back
41:17That said
41:19I'm surprised
41:20He lasted that long
41:21How did you feel?
41:25In some ways
41:29It was in
41:29Actually
41:30How did I feel?
41:31A bit
41:31So
41:32You know
41:34I'd always said
41:35To Carl Williams
41:36Carl don't invest
41:37In superannuation
41:38You're never going
41:39To get it collected
41:39So I was not surprised
41:42Where was I?
41:44I was on a treadmill
41:46At my local gym
41:49When my phone rang
41:50In my gym bag
41:51So I thought
41:52I'd better answer this
41:53And it was
41:53Someone from work
41:55And he said
41:58You better sit down
42:00Carl has just
42:01Been murdered
42:14Okay
42:15This is a tape
42:17Recorded interview
42:17Conducted at the
42:18Barwon prison
42:19On the 19th day
42:21Of April
42:222010
42:24What's your full name
42:25And address please?
42:26Matthew Charles Johnson
42:28Barwon prison
42:31Matthew Johnson
42:32Had been arrested
42:33And charged
42:34With the murder
42:36Of Carl Williams
42:38Have you got any
42:39Comment to make
42:40About that?
42:41No comment
42:41No comment?
42:43No comment
42:45Johnson was charged
42:46With murder
42:47You know
42:48In its own way
42:48It was bizarre
42:49Because this is
42:50All on CCTV
42:51Are you aware
42:54That there is
42:56Video
42:58Within the prison complex?
42:59No comment
43:00Some of the photos
43:02That were released
43:02From the court
43:03Show
43:03Matthew Johnson
43:04Standing behind
43:05Williams
43:05With the seat post
43:06In his hand
43:08Carl's lying dead
43:09On the floor
43:11Well at this stage
43:12I'll advise you
43:13That you're going
43:13To be charged
43:14With the murder
43:15Of Carl Williams
43:17You do not
43:17Have to say
43:18Or do anything
43:18Unless you wish
43:19To do so
43:20But whatever you say
43:21Or do may be
43:22Recorded and given
43:23It evidence
43:23Do you understand
43:24Yes
43:27In terms of
43:28The fact that
43:29It was Matthew
43:30Johnson
43:30I went
43:31Well that doesn't
43:32Really surprise me
43:33What surprised me
43:34Was that he was
43:35In a cell
43:35With Matthew
43:36Johnson
43:50Matthew Johnson
43:51Is a brutal
43:53Killer
43:53Carl believed
43:55That he'd be
43:55Protected by
43:56Matthew Johnson
43:57But what he
43:58Underestimated
43:59Is that Matthew
44:00Johnson would
44:01Never put up
44:02With protecting
44:03A police informer
44:04That went against
44:05Everything he stood for
44:21Carl was not
44:23The type
44:23To survive
44:24A long time
44:26In jail
44:26Particularly
44:27Once he was
44:28Cooperating
44:28With the police
44:29It's a real
44:31Death wish
44:31In places
44:32Like Barwon
44:35Another blow
44:36In a long
44:37Wait for answers
44:38Paul Dale
44:39Was charged
44:40With the
44:40Hodson murders
44:41The charges
44:42Were dropped
44:43When gangland
44:43Boss
44:44Carl Williams
44:44Was killed
44:45In prison
44:46Carl's
44:47Family aside
44:48The Petra
44:49Taskforce
44:49Were the only
44:50Other people
44:50In Victoria
44:51Who were
44:51Absolutely
44:52Devastated
44:52That day
44:53It was
44:54Devastating
44:54Absolutely
44:55Devastating
44:56I knew
44:58Then
44:58That
44:58That was
44:59A massive
45:00Hole
45:00Been blown
45:01Into
45:02The prosecution
45:03Case
45:03We had
45:03In relation
45:04To the
45:04Codson
45:05Killings
45:07The
45:08The whole
45:10Prosecution
45:11Case
45:11Was built
45:12On the
45:13Foundation
45:14Of Carl
45:15Williams
45:15And it
45:16Wasn't there
45:17Anymore
45:17Without
45:18Carl
45:18There was
45:20No
45:20Case
45:22Me
45:22And my
45:23Fellow
45:23Lead
45:24Investigator
45:24Had been
45:25Working
45:25On this
45:26Case
45:26Now
45:26The best
45:27Part
45:27Of six
45:27Years
45:28And it
45:29Just
45:30Went
45:31Very
45:32Demoralising
45:36Carl's
45:36Brutal
45:37Bludgeoning
45:37At the
45:37Hands
45:38Of an
45:38Inmate
45:39Seemingly
45:40Unraveled
45:40The
45:40Cold
45:41Case
45:41Detectives
45:42Had
45:42Been
45:42So
45:42Close
45:43To
45:43Solving
45:45Carl
45:46Initially
45:46Ordered
45:47The
45:47Hit
45:47On
45:47Graham
45:47Kinneborough
45:48In
45:48His
45:48Ongoing
45:49War
45:49Against
45:49The
45:50Carlton
45:50Crew
45:50And
45:51The
45:51Morans
45:52The
45:53Alleged
45:53Killers
45:54Of
45:54Kinneborough
45:54Were
45:54Named
45:55By
45:55The
45:55Runner
45:55But
45:57Talk
45:57Alone
45:57Doesn't
45:57Make
45:58A
45:58Case
45:58The
45:59Evidence
45:59Wasn't
46:00Strong
46:00And
46:01One
46:01Of
46:01The
46:01Accused
46:02Hitmen
46:02Conveniently
46:03Disappeared
46:04Making
46:04A
46:05Difficult
46:05Job
46:05Even
46:06Harder
46:08The
46:08File
46:09Remained
46:09Open
46:09But
46:10Progress
46:11Was
46:11Slow
46:12In
46:13This
46:13City
46:14Secrets
46:15Don't
46:15Stay
46:15Buried
46:17They
46:17Just
46:17Wait
46:18For
46:18Someone
46:18To
46:19Dig
46:23Surely
46:24After
46:24The
46:24Murder
46:24Of
46:25Graham
46:25Kinneborough
46:26Terrence
46:26Blewett
46:26Went
46:27Missing
46:27We
46:28Set
46:28About
46:28Investigating
46:29The
46:29Suspicious
46:30Disappearance
46:31Terrence
46:31Terrence
46:31Blewett
46:32We
46:33Had
46:33Information
46:33That
46:34Led
46:34Us
46:34To
46:35An
46:35Illegal
46:35Tip
46:36In
46:36Thomastown
46:38For
46:39The
46:39Right
46:39Amount
46:39Of
46:39Money
46:40You
46:40Could
46:40Dump
46:40Whatever
46:40You
46:41Wanted
46:41On
46:41That
46:41Site
46:42It
46:43Had
46:43Since
46:43Been
46:43Rehabilitated
46:45It
46:46It
46:46It
46:46Looked
46:46Like
46:46A
46:46Beautiful
46:47Untouched
46:48Field
46:49Far
46:49From
46:49What
46:49It
46:50Would
46:50Look
46:50Like
46:50At
46:50The
46:51Time
46:51That
46:51Terrence
46:51Blewett
46:52Went
46:52Missing
46:54So
46:54We
46:54Decided
46:55That
46:55That
46:55Site
46:56Was
46:56Fairly
46:56Interesting
46:57For
46:57Us
47:03I
47:09Was
47:10Given
47:10Permission
47:10To
47:11Hire
47:11A
47:11Very
47:11Big
47:12Digger
47:12And
47:13We
47:13Went
47:13There
47:13And
47:13Started
47:14Excavating
47:14That
47:15Massive
47:15Site
47:17Unfortunately
47:17After
47:18Two
47:19And
47:19A
47:19Half
47:19Days
47:19We
47:19Uncovered
47:20Nothing
47:22And
47:23I
47:23Been
47:23Told
47:23That
47:24If
47:24We
47:24Didn't
47:24Come
47:25Home
47:25With
47:25Terrence
47:25Then
47:26I
47:26Should
47:26Probably
47:27Look
47:27With
47:27Some
47:27Other
47:28Line
47:28Of
47:28Work
47:28Very
47:29Soon
47:30I
47:31Did
47:31Feel
47:31A
47:31Great
47:31Amount
47:32Of
47:32Pressure
47:34I
47:34Ordered
47:35Some
47:35Aerial
47:36Photographs
47:36Of
47:37The
47:37Site
47:38Around
47:38The
47:38Time
47:38That
47:39Terrence
47:39Blewett
47:39Went
47:39Missing
47:41We
47:41Noticed
47:42In
47:42The
47:42Photographs
47:43There
47:43Was
47:43Two
47:44Diggers
47:44And
47:44One
47:45Of
47:45Them
47:45Had
47:45Never
47:45Moved
47:48And
47:48We
47:49Could
47:49See
47:49Before
47:50And
47:50After
47:50That
47:51The
47:51Digger
47:51Was
47:51In
47:51The
47:51Same
47:51Place
47:52So
47:53We
47:53Were
47:53Able
47:53To
47:54Line
47:54Up
47:54Where
47:55We
47:55Thought
47:55That
47:55Digger
47:56Was
47:56Using
47:57The
47:57Rooftops
47:57Of
47:57The
47:58Nearby
47:58Factories
48:02And
48:02As
48:03Soon
48:03As
48:03We
48:03Started
48:03Scraping
48:04Back
48:04The
48:04Layers
48:05We
48:05Could
48:05See
48:05A
48:06Trench
48:08And
48:08So
48:08I
48:08Rang
48:08My
48:09Boss
48:09And
48:09Said
48:09We
48:10Think
48:10We
48:10Found
48:11Where
48:11He's
48:11Buried
48:11And
48:12He
48:12Said
48:12Stop
48:12Digging
48:14No
48:14I
48:14Couldn't
48:15Wait
48:17So
48:17We
48:17Kept
48:17Digging
48:19And
48:19Because
48:19The
48:20Site
48:20That
48:20They
48:20Had
48:20Dug
48:20Into
48:21Had
48:22House
48:22Bricks
48:23And
48:23Asbestos
48:23And
48:24All
48:24Sorts
48:24Of
48:24Things
48:24In
48:25It
48:25There
48:25Was
48:25The
48:25Normal
48:26Soil
48:26Profile
48:26But
48:27Then
48:27Persisting
48:28Through
48:28The
48:28Layers
48:29Was
48:30Other
48:30Material
48:31That
48:31Shouldn't
48:31Have
48:31Been
48:36The
48:36Bucket
48:36Was
48:37Terrence
48:38Blewett
48:42I
48:43Was
48:43So
48:43Relieved
48:46So
48:47We
48:47Compiled
48:47The
48:47Brief
48:47And
48:48We
48:48Took
48:48That
48:48To
48:48The
48:48Office
48:49Of
48:49Public
48:49Prosecutions
48:50For
48:50An
48:50Opinion
48:51And
48:52The
48:52Crown
48:52Prosecutor's
48:53Response
48:53To
48:54Us
48:54Was
48:54What
48:54Are
48:55You
48:55Waiting
48:55For
48:55Go
48:55And
48:56Charge
48:56Him
48:56More
48:57Than
48:5713
48:57Years
48:58After
48:58Graham
48:58Kinneborough
48:59Was
48:59Executed
49:00Outside
49:00His
49:01Kew
49:01Home
49:01One
49:02Of
49:02His
49:02Alleged
49:02Killers
49:03Is
49:03Finally
49:04On
49:04Trial
49:04Jury
49:05Was
49:05Told
49:05Asling
49:06Was
49:06Acting
49:06On
49:06Behalf
49:07Of
49:07Carl
49:07Williams
49:08Who
49:08Had
49:08A
49:09Powerful
49:09Hatred
49:10Of
49:10The
49:10Moran
49:10Family
49:11And
49:11Their
49:11Associates
49:15Because
49:16I'm
49:16Naturally
49:16A
49:17Pessimist
49:17I
49:17Thought
49:17He
49:18Would
49:18Be
49:18Acquitted
49:19So
49:19When
49:20The
49:20Jury
49:20Returned
49:20A
49:21Verdict
49:21And
49:21They
49:21Looked
49:21Straight
49:22At
49:22Me
49:22When
49:22They
49:22Said
49:22Guilty
49:23He
49:24Was
49:24Sentenced
49:24To
49:25Life
49:25In
49:25Prison
49:25With
49:26A
49:26Non
49:26Parole
49:26Period
49:27Of
49:2727
49:27Years
49:29Stephen
49:29Asling
49:29Made
49:30No
49:30Comment
49:30Was
49:31Impassive
49:31And
49:32He
49:32Was
49:33Removed
49:33From
49:33The
49:34Court
49:34I
49:35Have
49:35Never
49:35Felt
49:35So
49:36Overjoyed
49:43Melbourne's
49:44Gangland
49:44War
49:45Ran
49:45On
49:45Drugs
49:46Money
49:46And
49:47A
49:47Steady
49:47Supply
49:48Of
49:48Hired
49:48Guns
49:50At
49:51The
49:51Centre
49:51Was
49:51Carl
49:52Williams
49:53A
49:54Suburban
49:54Nobody
49:54Who
49:55Built
49:55An
49:59And
49:59Grabbed
50:00The
50:00Lion
50:00Share
50:00Of
50:01The
50:01City's
50:01Drug
50:02Tribe
50:04For
50:05Time
50:06It
50:06Worked
50:06Bodies
50:07Dropped
50:07Carl
50:08Got
50:09Rich
50:09And
50:09Fear
50:10Did
50:10The
50:10Heavy
50:10Lifting
50:12But
50:13Loyalty
50:13In
50:13The
50:14Underworld
50:14Has
50:14A
50:14Short
50:15Self
50:15Life
50:15His
50:17Gunman
50:17Flipped
50:18Hard
50:19Working
50:19Police
50:20Cracked
50:20The
50:20Code
50:20Of
50:20Silence
50:22And
50:22His
50:23Empire
50:23Finally
50:24Imploded
50:26In
50:26The
50:27Final
50:27Twist
50:27The
50:28Man
50:28Who
50:28Ordered
50:28So
50:29Many
50:29Killings
50:29Met
50:30His
50:30Own
50:30End
50:31Not
50:32On
50:32The
50:32Street
50:33But
50:34In
50:34A
50:34Prison
50:34Unit
50:34Bashed
50:35To
50:35Death
50:36Becoming
50:36Just
50:37Another
50:37Victim
50:38Of
50:38The
50:38Violence
50:39He
50:39Once
50:39Commanded
50:41In
50:42The
50:42Underworld
50:42Dead
50:43Men
50:43Tell
50:44No
50:44Tales
50:48There
50:49Are
50:495
50:49Million
50:49Stories
50:50In
50:50The
50:50Naked
50:50City
50:52This
50:53Has
50:54Been
50:54One
50:54Of
50:55Them
51:00Far
51:00In
51:01The
51:01Summer
51:01Five
51:03On
51:03Theاب
51:04Had
51:04$1
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