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00:00Cherry Healy hit perimenopause at 40 and she wasn't expecting it.
00:04I never just ran up and had a whole day of intense anxiety for no reason.
00:09And that was starting to happen.
00:11And I was also starting to wake up in the middle of the night at 4am like heart palpitations.
00:16I thought my heart was going to come out of my chest.
00:19These days women are encouraged to see their bodies as ticking time bombs.
00:23Periods, pregnancy, menopause, but for Cherry, perimenopause was actually a wake up call.
00:28It was time to really start building healthy habits for long-term wellbeing.
00:32If you want to look well, feel well, work well and have a spring in your step,
00:38you actually just have to look after yourself.
00:40Cherry is a TV presenter and a huge women's health advocate.
00:43And she's on a mission to help women beat UTIs.
00:46Today she joins me to discuss perimenopause and hormone health for women in their 40s and beyond.
00:50Cherry Healy, presenter, podcaster and co-creator of a new women's health supplement.
00:55Welcome to Well Enough.
00:56Emily, I'm so happy to be here.
00:58I'm so happy to have you.
01:00Cannot wait to talk women's health advocacy with you.
01:02And I want to dive straight in and talk about perimenopause, if I may.
01:05Bring it.
01:06Amazing.
01:07So you famously spoke about the fact that you hit 40, realised something was going on,
01:12and you were like, what is this?
01:14Tell me more about that experience.
01:16Well, what's amazing, Emily, is that I was making a show about women's health, talking
01:20to gynecologists, like world-class, world-famous gynecologists.
01:26I was learning all about the menopause, perimenopause.
01:29Our wonderful Davina was talking about it, you know, for the first time she put her career
01:33on the line to have that conversation.
01:34No one was talking about it before that.
01:36And I interviewed her once, and she said she had to make a decision about whether to start
01:43that conversation, knowing that she could potentially end her career.
01:48So that's what those times were like.
01:50If you started talking about perimenopause or menopause, nobody even knew what perimenopause
01:54was.
01:54If you started talking about menopause, people were like, go and live under the bridge with
01:58the trolls.
01:58You're over.
01:59You're old.
02:01Grow a wart.
02:01But that was a real thing.
02:03Menopause is steeped in sexism and ageism, so it was very like, oh, I think you're done
02:09now.
02:10Go and sit in the cupboard.
02:12So I hit this, I mean, I was so fortunate to be in that moment, and everyone's talking
02:19about it.
02:20And I start having really wild anxiety.
02:25And I'm a sensitive person, I'm an, you know, normal, normal, I'm an anxious person
02:31in time.
02:31But it's sort of circumstantial.
02:33Something happens.
02:34I thought.
02:34But I never just randomly wake up.
02:36I'm thankful, you know, for that.
02:38But I never just round up and have a whole day of intense anxiety for no reason.
02:44And that was starting to happen.
02:45And I was also starting to wake up in the middle of the night, 4am, like heart palpitations,
02:51like thought my heart was going to come out of my chest.
02:56And I kept thinking, and I didn't tell anyone, because I don't know why, I just, I suppose
03:02I just didn't know how to vocalise it.
03:03And, you know, you just kind of get on with it.
03:05And it's also quite gradual as well.
03:07So, you know, it starts and it builds up and it builds up.
03:10But it affects every facet of your life.
03:13You're tired, which means you make bad food choices.
03:16You make bad exercise choices.
03:18You're a bitch.
03:20Because you're tired as hell.
03:23So, you know, obviously I was never a bitch.
03:25But I was definitely just felt, I felt heavy and tired.
03:29And I do normally feel quite springy.
03:33Yeah.
03:33And I felt happy.
03:34And I felt very different for you.
03:35Very different.
03:35Now, I was in a relationship that I knew was, needed to come to an end.
03:39Because unfortunately we wanted different life things.
03:41And he was an amazing, amazing person.
03:43But we wanted different things out of life, which was really sad.
03:46So I thought maybe that, maybe that was giving me anxiety.
03:49Maybe my subconscious was, was kind of trying to talk to me.
03:53But that relationship ended and I moved on.
03:55And the anxiety got considerably worse.
03:58Right.
03:59I just didn't know what was going on.
04:00And honestly, Emily, after a while I thought, I think I might be going a bit mad.
04:04And I'd wake up in the morning.
04:06And normally I feel good about the day and excited about the day.
04:09No, not every day.
04:10Mostly I just want to stay in bed.
04:12Most days.
04:12Mostly I just want to stay in bed.
04:13But I don't feel horrendous dread.
04:14Yeah.
04:15And I don't feel depressed.
04:16And I was starting to get nervous about going to bed.
04:19Because I knew I'd wake up feeling dread.
04:23Like chased by a shark dread.
04:25Such an amazing, but you still, like we all do.
04:27Get out of bed.
04:29Have a cup of tea.
04:31Go on.
04:31Get on with my day.
04:32Yeah, crack on.
04:33Whilst also feeling like I'm being chased by a pack of wolves.
04:37You know.
04:37Getting on with my dog.
04:38I mean, that just does not sound sustainable, does it?
04:40No.
04:41It's not sustainable.
04:42But I didn't, I always think of perimenopause and menopause as hot flashes or flushes.
04:48I always get those two wrong.
04:49I think they're interchangeable, right?
04:50They're interchangeable a bit.
04:52And you know, brain fog.
04:54There are some really classic symptoms of menopause.
04:56And I wasn't displaying any of those.
04:59And then at the end of one of my interviews with a really incredible gynaecologist.
05:07You know, a specialist in women's hormones.
05:10I said to him, would you mind just giving me five minutes?
05:15Because I was starting to get really weepy throughout the day, but obviously I was exhausted
05:19and anxious.
05:20Yeah.
05:21So that was, it was quite hard to conceal crying.
05:24Sure.
05:25So I said to him at the end, can I have five minutes?
05:28And he listened to me.
05:29And I mean, I can't believe I didn't put two and two together.
05:32With all of the, with the work that I do and the world that I live in and the people
05:35that I speak to, I just felt like such an idiot.
05:37He was like, well, you're menopausal, you're perimenopausal.
05:41I said, I can't be, I'm 40.
05:43I'm way too, I'm way too young.
05:46I think I was 42 or 43 at this stage.
05:50So I've been living with it for two years at this point.
05:53And, and he said, you're, you're perimenopausal.
05:56And I thought, yeah, of course.
05:58I can't believe I didn't clock that.
06:01Did it all just make sense in that moment?
06:03A hundred percent.
06:05But I was about to go to my GP and again, I should have probably gone before.
06:08I was about to go to my GP and ask for antidepressants.
06:11A lot of women go to their GPs presenting symptoms that are because of hormone changes,
06:17estrogen, progesterone and testosterone, and get put on antidepressants.
06:22So I, I am so fortunate.
06:25I think about what would have happened to Cherry.
06:27Talking about myself in third person is always really attractive, like Gollum.
06:30But we'll just go with it.
06:32And one, one was thinking, you know, what, what would, what would have happened to me five years,
06:46what would have happened to me five years ago?
06:53I probably would have gone on antidepressants.
06:56I don't know who I would be sitting here right now.
06:59I think I'd be in an absolute state.
07:01I definitely wouldn't be working.
07:03Oh God, no.
07:03I would have lost my job.
07:05There's no way I could have sustained working.
07:06This is what happens.
07:07We lose so many women out of the workforce when they hit their forties.
07:14Relationships, um, end, you know, some, some end because they should end just saying, but
07:19some end because a woman cannot cope with the symptoms.
07:22So a lot of destruction is, is done to a woman's life because we get misdiagnosed.
07:29So I was really, really fortunate to be, to have those symptoms when I did weirdly.
07:35But a lot of people, they don't even really know what perimenopause means, do they?
07:39It's this kind of weird hinterland.
07:41It's not pre-menopause and it's not post-menopause.
07:44It's kind of the run up, the dress rehearsal.
07:47Exactly.
07:47And no one really thinks, oh, you know, this is what it is because they're still having
07:52periods.
07:53I mean, the NHS says, you're not in menopause.
07:55You're in perimenopause if you're still having periods, but you're showing symptoms.
07:58Right.
07:58But how can people really ascertain where they are in that process?
08:02I got such strong feelings on this.
08:05Okey dokes.
08:06So, um, I think perimenopause is the main event.
08:11So women just put up with it.
08:12My mum said to me, she said, I never, you know, I didn't.
08:14And I've heard this from a lot of women saying, you know, I, you know, I just, I went through
08:19menopause.
08:19So menopause is when you haven't had a period for a year.
08:22That means you are in menopause and, um, the bit beforehand, the 10 years, the 10 years
08:30beforehand in your forties, which is like your golden era.
08:34Um, you know, it's a big chapter of a woman's life.
08:37It should be bloody brilliant.
08:40So that is a big chapter when your hormones start changing.
08:42And for some women, it doesn't, you know, your hormones don't change your 50.
08:45For some, it starts at 35.
08:48You know, this is also when women are making their money.
08:50This is when women are digging into their careers.
08:53We are starting to create financial independence for ourselves.
08:56And the best thing you can do for your safety and your quality of life is to earn your own
09:02money.
09:03Hands down, it means that you can get a taxi late at night.
09:07It means you can leave a relationship that's not right.
09:09It means you can buy a safer apartment.
09:11It means that you can go to the doctor and you can get a private check if you really need
09:15one.
09:15The level of safety that woman gives herself when she creates her own independence, whether she's married, in a partnership,
09:22whatever.
09:24And staying in work is absolutely critical for women.
09:30And being able to control your hormonal symptoms is critical for that.
09:35If a woman's experienced brain fog, depression, anxiety, she's most, she's likely to either change her job or leave her
09:42job.
09:42And it's very difficult to get back into the workforce once you leave because your confidence goes.
09:46You're not sure about your network.
09:48We've also talked about all of these negative aspects of perimenopause, which, you know, they're real and they can't be
09:54overstated.
09:55But I also read a really cool interview with you where you said, actually, perimenopause was a gift for me
10:00and that it gave me some great benefits, too.
10:03I wonder if we can talk about those.
10:04Absolutely.
10:05So do you remember in your 20s, you could, like, drink a quarter bottle of tequila and a bottle of
10:09Chardonnay and dance all night and come in at eight in the morning?
10:12Do you remember that?
10:13Do you remember that?
10:15And your skin would look amazing and you'd still, like, function, like, perfectly.
10:20Well, I, you know, as you get older, your body just, like, your hormones changing.
10:25It just doesn't want to do that.
10:27And I think it's one of, if you get help and you are able to rebalance your hormones and you,
10:33and life, then you have to do lifestyle changes if you want to feel really good.
10:37So exercise is one of the best things you could possibly do for your body, for anti-inflammatory, you know,
10:45for, for every single part, every, I mean, every single, every single prevention and osteoporosis and mobility and hormonal and
10:56everything.
10:57So lifting weights, which is also really fun to feel strong.
11:00Oh, yeah.
11:01I mean, it's cool, right?
11:02And I love that more and more women are doing that.
11:04Right.
11:04It's really fun to lift your shopping, go up, take it upstairs, unpack it and, like, still have energy for
11:08the rest of the day.
11:09It's really fun to be able to, like, lift up your kids and, you know, and feel your, so feeling
11:13strong is really, really lovely and important for a woman.
11:16Lifting weights does magical things to your body hormonally.
11:20And so perimenopause, I mean, I have to go to the gym, I have to lift weights because it just
11:25does something chemically to my body, which really helps my symptoms.
11:28Eating right.
11:29I know we get more pressure to take protein than class A drugs, but listen, you've got to, like, just
11:35keep a half an eye on your protein because it's, it's just, it's important, right?
11:39We need to keep our muscle mass up.
11:42Again, it's connected to hormones, but I won't go into science because it's boring, but sleeping well.
11:48Be protective over your sleep because it's the glue that holds you together.
11:51It will change, if you get your sleep, if you get your sleep right, it will do many, many wonderful
11:56things.
11:57And it's much easier to make good exercise and food choices as well.
12:02Alcohol, unfortunately, and I love wine.
12:04So other alcohol, I love margarita, but I just love wine.
12:09And, but you have to be really conscious of how that's going to affect your body.
12:13So I can have a couple of glasses early in the evening, and that's just lovely at dinner.
12:18And that's really lovely.
12:18But I can't really have any more after.
12:20And if I do, because I'm at a party or, um, I, I know that that's going to disrupt my
12:27sleep massively without question.
12:29And that's okay.
12:30You kind of like, you know, you take that on the chin.
12:32Do you feel that in your body or do you kind of use fitness trackers or like an aura ring
12:36or anything?
12:36No, I don't because I, I did have an Apple watch once.
12:40Yeah.
12:41But I don't know.
12:42I don't, I didn't, it wasn't really for me, if I'm honest.
12:45I think I like a more intuitive, you know, you know when you haven't slept well.
12:50I also don't want a watch to tell me I haven't slept well.
12:53Yeah, they can really bully you.
12:55Because I know.
12:55Right.
12:55Because I'm not saying I wouldn't, but I think that at the time, you know, at the time also
13:00you have certain bandwidth for information.
13:02I think I just couldn't cope with it.
13:03Whereas it is something I would be interested in now, especially now I feel like I've reached
13:07like a good equilibrium.
13:09But yes, I think perimenopause means that you, if you want to feel well, you really can't
13:14get away with shenanigans.
13:15No supplement, no HRT, no skincare routine is going to overcome a bad diet in a bottle
13:24of Chardonnay.
13:25You're just not going to get away.
13:26And I'm really vain, like super vain.
13:30And so I know when I've had a lot of wine because I can see it in my face.
13:34So also, if you want to look well, feel well, work well, and have a spring in your step,
13:42you just, you actually just have to look after yourself.
13:43You just can't get away with as much as you could have in your twenties.
13:46So I thank perimenopause for that.
13:49It's forced me into looking after myself.
13:52I've always taken care of myself, but you just, the parameters become a bit smaller,
13:57I think.
13:57I guess you're a bit more mindful, aren't you?
13:59And it, yeah.
13:59I want to feel really great.
14:01Like I'm in a lovely relationship.
14:04My kids have grown up, so they don't need me as much.
14:07I mean, they do still need me.
14:08Like my son's 12.
14:09Don't think like I do.
14:10You're good, off you go.
14:11You still pick him up from school.
14:12Don't worry.
14:13And feed him.
14:14But like, they just don't need you in the same way, you know?
14:16So, you know, I love my work.
14:19I find it incredible fulfilling.
14:21So this is not the decade to be feeling rubbish and unfit and not being able to sleep.
14:28This is, this is a great decade for women.
14:30You also said perimenopause was the catalyst to ending your relationship, but that actually
14:35that was a silver lining too.
14:37I mean, a lot of people would see the end of a relationship as obviously something really
14:42painful, but to talk about it in those terms is quite empowering, I guess.
14:46Well, I think it wasn't, it wasn't a catalyst in that it, it was because I thought, gosh,
14:52you know, I've got these, this awful anxiety.
14:54Is this because, unfortunately, because it was such a lovely, lovely person.
14:58I was really sad to leave that relationship.
15:00But at the same time, I had peace in knowing that he wanted, you know, he wanted something
15:05different to me.
15:06And there was a peace in going, okay, well, look, thank you for a wonderful, wonderful relationship.
15:09I was really grateful to have had that chapter with him, but we want different things.
15:14And I think, yes, the anxiety was like, I can't get away with the fact that, you know,
15:18because when you really care about someone, it's really hard to break up from them.
15:21Yeah.
15:21It's really hard to break up with someone you still love.
15:23But I think the anxiety was a little kind of, like a gremlin at my door going, something's
15:30not right here.
15:30But actually, it wasn't that, it was hormones.
15:34But I just didn't know it at the time.
15:38It's a really tricky one, I think, for a lot of people as well, because they don't
15:42know whether to go and get their hormones checked.
15:45We've given so much conflicting information about home tests, getting tested at your GP,
15:51normal results versus optimal results.
15:53Did you go straight away and get your hormones checked after you had that conversation?
15:57I was given some really good advice.
15:58I was offered a private consultation from a wonderful gynecologist, and she said, look,
16:02we will test your hormones.
16:05But this is actually quite a while ago.
16:08And she said, the problem is, it's actually quite difficult because women are cyclical.
16:12It's really difficult to get a baseline.
16:14And she said, really, what I just like to ask women how they are.
16:18Yeah.
16:18And I personally couldn't agree with her more, having gone a bit further down the journey,
16:23having spoken to more people about their experience.
16:25I personally think, if you feel like a piece of poo, that's all you need to know, Susan.
16:32Right?
16:33Do you need a doctor telling you you feel like crap?
16:36No.
16:36You know.
16:36You know you do.
16:38And lots of people are being encouraged to do all these at home tests.
16:41And they can be really expensive.
16:43That can really rack up.
16:44So actually just knowing your body and knowing, actually, something is not right with me, and
16:48that's enough, is quite good advice.
16:50Absolutely.
16:51A woman knows her body.
16:54Yeah.
16:54And data can help.
16:55Sure.
16:56I mean, it's good to come armed sometimes with, you know, information on your periods
17:00or how you're feeling.
17:01But, yeah, ultimately, the biggest test is actually understanding how you're feeling.
17:06Absolutely.
17:06I think there are some amazing, amazing tracking services, which are really good.
17:11Not to name any.
17:12That's useful.
17:13I think that's absolutely key, is know what your period kind of looks like across the year.
17:20And I think that's really important in terms of moods.
17:23That's useful for life.
17:24I think we should start teaching girls to do that from the word go.
17:29So know the different phases.
17:31We never got told that before.
17:32Are you kidding me?
17:34I'm 45 and I still don't really understand it.
17:36I'm like, I'm really playing catch up.
17:38But since learning about it, it's really been game changing.
17:41Because that's also, sometimes I go to the gym and I just really don't feel like it.
17:44And I would have formally, like, pushed myself through.
17:47And I know now that's absolutely not.
17:48You do some stretching, you do some toning, and then go and have a coffee.
17:52But just being at the gym is a really, I go to the gym partly because of mental health.
17:56Yeah.
17:56Because I love, you know, I'm a freelancer.
17:58I like to start my morning seeing people and it's really energetic.
18:01So I know that there's phases where you're going to absolutely go hard at the gym.
18:06And also food wise, if you just want to sit and eat a pizza and you look at, you know,
18:09you go, right, absolutely.
18:11I'm just not going to try and eat a bean salad tonight.
18:15I'm going to just, so understanding your cycle is really, really, really useful.
18:20Couldn't agree more.
18:21And I think we are also so caught up in the idea that women might feel bad in a particular
18:31part of their cycle and therefore that could affect their success at work, etc.
18:35No, I mean, we know now that women perform really well all the way through their cycle, but it's more
18:40about physical symptoms.
18:41It's more about you might feel a little bit more tired.
18:44You might be able to like not lift as heavy in the gym.
18:47Yeah.
18:47But really, it just comes down to that, which I love because we now we have data to support all
18:51of that.
18:51Absolutely.
18:52And it's also if you've got a huge work project that isn't time specific, but you can choose to do
18:57that at a particular time in the month.
18:58It's really good to be able to go, right, this is a really great this week, I will smash it.
19:02And next week, it'll just be a bit harder.
19:04I mean, women still get it done.
19:06Yeah, absolutely.
19:07And in some ways, we're forced to get it done with much tighter parameters.
19:11So yeah, do you understand your cycle?
19:13I do.
19:14And I don't because I've got PCOS.
19:15So it's always been very tricky for me.
19:17It takes a long time to get a diagnosis.
19:20And, you know, you're kind of told, hormones look fine.
19:23And you're like, yeah, but I've got crushing anxiety and absent periods.
19:26So could you help?
19:28Yeah, but it looks fine on paper.
19:29So can you go home now?
19:31Yeah.
19:31But then I was diagnosed with, you know, mad misalignment in my hormone levels.
19:37So actually, kind of perimenopause symptoms are something I've been dealing with since my 20s.
19:42And can you do HRT for that or will that?
19:44I went on HRT for a bit, but the results were a bit dicey for me.
19:48It didn't feel good.
19:48Right.
19:49It just wasn't right.
19:50Not really.
19:51And it might have been that my body was adjusting.
19:52It might have been the levels.
19:54I mean, I, maybe TMI, but I was on my period for 27 days one month.
19:58I just thought, I don't really want to do this after having no periods for a long time.
20:04Not sure which is worse.
20:04Was that because of the HRT?
20:05It was, yeah.
20:06Right, because of the, right, of course.
20:08And my body was kind of aligning to what was going on.
20:10Right.
20:11I should have stuck with it for longer, to be fair.
20:13I don't know.
20:13I mean, that's, I don't know many women who would have stuck with that.
20:16Yeah.
20:16And miraculously, it stopped the day before I went to Ibiza for holidays.
20:20So I thought, great.
20:21So the universe is kind of, you know.
20:23Period gods are smiling on me.
20:24Right.
20:24But yeah.
20:25It was such good timing.
20:26I'm so happy for you.
20:28It's also the reason I got into wellness is because, you know, hormone issues will force
20:32you to look at your habits, your routines, how much you're going out, how much you're
20:36sleeping, what you're eating, whether you're exercising.
20:38So for me, that was absolutely a wake up call that I needed to start being more well.
20:43That's really interesting.
20:44I couldn't agree with that more.
20:45I think a lot of women who've previously just been able to kind of eat and drink and party
20:49and whatever throughout most of their life.
20:52I think many women hit 40 and go, oh God, that's, can't do that anymore.
20:56Yeah.
20:57But you can still live an amazing, happy, joyful life.
20:59You just have to make some changes.
21:00Absolutely.
21:01And also I think my, my brain has shifted.
21:05I think it's cool to look after yourself now.
21:07I think it's cool to have good skin and good hair and get sleep.
21:10And get sleep.
21:10Remember it didn't used to be cool to get sleep.
21:12Oh no.
21:12I was afraid of bedtime for a long time.
21:14I wanted to stay out as long as I could and have all the fun, but I paid for it.
21:19So, I mean, I just can't believe, I mean, I cannot believe that I go to bed at 9pm.
21:24But I, but I can't, it's glorious.
21:27I literally make sex noises when I get into bed.
21:30It's that good.
21:31And like, I get into bed and I go, oh yeah.
21:32Oh, oh.
21:33And my bed is elite.
21:35Like my duvet is perfect.
21:36My mattress is perfect.
21:38Like all my sheets.
21:39I mean, it's-
21:40Your priorities change, don't they?
21:41I know.
21:41I've got a serious bed set up.
21:43I've got one of those eight sleep things.
21:45So I can adjust the temperature and it tracks my sleep patterns.
21:49Are they good?
21:49I really rate it.
21:50I think it's really good.
21:51Okay.
21:51Not an ad, but I think it's really good.
21:53No, no, no.
21:53That's really interesting.
21:54Okay, fine.
21:56It's one of those things that has been marketed quite heavily at perimenopausal and menopausal
22:01women because of obviously sleep divorce being such a big issue.
22:05So if you're burning up and you want to call a bed, you just tap it three times and it
22:09brings the temperature down.
22:11Really cool.
22:12Oh my God, that's amazing.
22:13Yeah, really cool.
22:14Okay.
22:14Noted.
22:15Noted.
22:16But actually speaking of hot flashes, what about the other symptoms because you co-created
22:23this women's health product because you wanted to treat UTIs and they are one of these not
22:28as spoken about symptoms of perimenopause.
22:31I wonder if we can deep dive on that a little bit.
22:33Absolutely.
22:34So depleting oestrogen affects the plumpness of your vagina and your vulva and that can
22:43increase your chance of getting UTIs.
22:46And I've had UTIs all my life.
22:48I got my first one when I was three because I was just very like trailblazing like that.
22:52I was just very cool early on.
22:54So I've been dealing with them all my life and then they've just got worse and worse
22:58and worse.
22:58And of course I didn't know why, but of course it's depletion in oestrogen.
23:03And as you get older after menopause, when you've stopped having your periods, some older
23:08women can really, really suffer from them and it can give you, you can hallucinate and
23:15it can almost look like dementia.
23:17Gosh.
23:17So a lot of older women get misdiagnosed and again, don't get the help and they might not
23:23present in, you know, cause normally when you get UTI, it's like burning pee, aching
23:28pelvis.
23:29You feel, you definitely feel depressed.
23:31It makes you feel really down and anxious.
23:34So I left a UTI because I was a maiden of honor and I couldn't get to the doctor and
23:38it was before you could get antibiotics online.
23:42And like I went from filming someone about Brussels sprouts in a field to being maiden of
23:47honor at this Oxfordshire wedding and I just didn't want to let her down.
23:50So I was like downing painkillers and cranberry juice like no tomorrow.
23:55And that, I might as well have taken Smarties because it does absolutely nothing.
23:59Yeah, cranberry juice.
23:59It does nothing.
24:00Mainly sugar from the supermarket.
24:01I mean it does nothing.
24:02There is a thing in cranberries called PMAs but it needs to be in such high concentration
24:06and also it's preventative, not a cure.
24:08So if you've got an infection, it does nothing.
24:11So off I go to the wedding and I'm getting progressively worse and worse and worse.
24:16The day of the wedding I wake up and my friend says, wow, you look really bad.
24:20And I was like, I have to just try and get through this.
24:24By the evening of the wedding I had to go and sit in a dark room and I was shivering
24:28and shaking and I had to get a taxi all the way back to London and go to A&E.
24:35And my friend said, you look really awful.
24:37And I said, I think I'm dying.
24:39I actually think I'm dying.
24:41I felt like I knew things internally were not okay.
24:45And I got into A&E and they didn't know what was wrong.
24:48And you know, because I was quite, I wasn't really, I couldn't really talk at that point.
24:53I was just a bit all over the place.
24:55And then they turned me over and I went, ow!
24:58And they said, it's in her kidneys.
25:00Yeah.
25:01And they whisked me upstairs and I was very, very close to having sepsis.
25:05Oh my gosh.
25:06And they put me on IV and I was there for a week.
25:11I'm just being cleaned out.
25:13And so all was good and they caught it in time and I was very lucky.
25:15And I've got scarring on my kidneys, so I know how to be really careful.
25:17But I was really lucky.
25:20And most women have had a UTI.
25:22A lot of women have recurring.
25:23Some people have chronic, which means it never goes away.
25:26But I was on antibiotics constantly for UTIs.
25:29I mean, I just look at a cat crossing the road and I get a UTI.
25:31People always say, is it because you're clean?
25:33And I'm like, you could literally eat your dinner off me every single second I'm awake.
25:37I am squeaky clean.
25:38Yes, I'm clean.
25:40And people go, oh, do you wipe from front to back?
25:42I'm like, oh my God.
25:43I was like, yes.
25:45Yes, I do.
25:45It almost feels a bit offensive, doesn't it, to be asked questions like that.
25:49You're like, yes, I look after myself.
25:51No, I've got a really dirty bum, thanks.
25:53Yeah, no, I just can't be bothered.
25:54I get raging UTIs, but I just obviously have the point in wiping my bum.
25:58So, yes, I'm clean.
26:00Yes, I'm hydrated.
26:01Yes, I look after myself.
26:02But some women get UTIs.
26:05Yeah.
26:06And so I thought, is there a preventative?
26:09And I've tried everything and nothing works.
26:10Nothing touched the sides for me.
26:11So I started working with this company that I absolutely rate.
26:15They have a lot of integrity.
26:16I've worked with them on other things.
26:17Never co-created a product.
26:19They're transparent.
26:20They're science-backed, female-led, passionate.
26:23And just, I like, I just love how they work.
26:26And I said, can we work on a supplement that really, really works?
26:31But if it doesn't work on me, I'm not going to, you have to kind of invest in this product.
26:36And if it doesn't work, then we walk away from it.
26:40Did it work?
26:40Yeah.
26:41And I haven't had a UTI for nearly nine months now.
26:44I feel like I'm having a UTI baby.
26:46I'm like, nine months.
26:47If you were sat here facing someone who was exactly where you were,
26:53say she's just turned 40 and she started having all of these symptoms,
26:56what's your best advice for her?
26:58What should she do?
26:59Great question.
27:01I think sit down and ask yourself, what do I normally feel like?
27:06How do I normally react to situations?
27:09Because another thing that can happen is you react with a lot less resilience.
27:12So I was finding decisions harder to make.
27:15I was finding situations at work harder to deal with.
27:18Whereas I'm normally quite a resilient person.
27:21So I think you have to know your normal and really, really have a think about,
27:25because you won't necessarily get hot.
27:28You won't necessarily have brain fog.
27:30Have a sit down and think, am I coping in the way I used to cope?
27:34And if you're not, go to the doctor, tell them.
27:36And do not get sent home.
27:37Do not get fobbed off.
27:39You're allowed a second opinion.
27:40You're allowed to see a female GP if you're not getting.
27:42And even if you see a female GP and you get sent home, you can ask to see a different
27:46GP.
27:47But do not suffer needlessly.
27:49It's completely pointless.
27:51Don't suffer for a month.
27:53You know, okay, look, give yourself a couple of months just to have a seat.
27:57But if you feel, no, I'm really suffering at the moment, get help.
28:01Life is way too short to sit at home feeling rubbish.
28:04Yeah, I agree.
28:05Is it worth like keeping a diary or something so that you can actually look back and think,
28:09did I behave like myself on that day?
28:11Absolutely.
28:12Well, I'm a big journaling fan.
28:13I journal pretty much every day.
28:14I think it, you know, not pages and pages, but just to kind of, I do a couple of sentences
28:18just to have a little review of how I'm feeling.
28:20And then I talk about the next day and I kind of, you know, love me a bit of visualizing.
28:27And so that's a really, really good idea to track how you're feeling.
28:33But again, even that, because it's so incremental, can sometimes be invisible to the naked eye
28:39because it won't just happen overnight that you suddenly feel really, really anxious,
28:43unmanageably anxious.
28:44That can be really gradual.
28:45So I think if you look back and think, you know, what, how did I feel six months ago?
28:49How did I feel a year ago?
28:50I didn't feel like this.
28:52Right.
28:52No more questions.
28:53Go get help.
28:54I think that's great advice.
28:56Um, I wonder as well, if you look back at your younger self now differently, having
29:02gone through this big shift and with everything that it's taught you, I mean, you were making
29:06documentaries about body image and all kinds of fantastic subjects.
29:10And I was actually saying before we started filming, I remember watching those documentaries
29:14and thinking, okay, this is the time of shipwrecked and what not to wear.
29:20And that show with the pod where they gave girls horrible makeovers.
29:23But you were, you were making documentaries with a really thoughtful, quite feminist, quite
29:29interesting lens that I really appreciated.
29:31But I wonder would Cherry now look back at her younger self and think, you know, what would
29:36you think having been through this perimenopause experience?
29:40Has it altered how you think about your younger self?
29:42I got such an interesting question.
29:45Um, and thank you for your kind words.
29:47I have to say BBC three, which is I mourn every day.
29:51It was so trailblazing for allowing a normal woman who, you know, I wasn't a celebrity.
29:57I was just a normal person having normal conversations to allow women on TV to talk about those things.
30:03Shamelessly and openly.
30:05I loved it.
30:05With no caveats.
30:06And I wasn't like edited.
30:07I was, I had no boundaries of what I could talk about.
30:09And I think that there's, that was a beautiful thing for BBC three to trailblaze.
30:14Absolutely.
30:15Um, I think I'd be, I think I'd be really, I think I'd be really great.
30:23If I was younger, looking at me now, I'd be grateful for who I am.
30:26You know, survived, you know, two healthy kids.
30:29I'm really grateful for every single day.
30:31And looking back, I don't know, I think you always do the best you can with the information
30:36that you have at the time.
30:37I wish I'd gone to bed earlier.
30:39I don't know why.
30:40I think, you know, when my kids were little, I used to have this really,
30:44really thing about having grown up time.
30:46So I'd eat my supper after they went to bed, which would be like 8pm, 9pm, you know,
30:51depending on when they went to sleep.
30:52And then I'd stay up watching TV.
30:54I really wanted to have grown up time.
30:56Or I'd go out, you know, get a babysitter.
30:58And actually what I should have done is put the kids to bed, eat with the kids,
31:02put the kids to bed and go, and go and get us some sleep.
31:04But you just don't want to do that because you feel like you've got no time.
31:07Um, but yeah, I think the only thing I would love to tell younger Cherry is just, just go to
31:13bed.
31:14Don't sit up watching TV all night.
31:15What are you doing?
31:16What are you doing?
31:17It doesn't, why is that grown up time?
31:19You're just ruining your next day?
31:21Yeah.
31:21Because you watch like TV.
31:23Oh, it's ridiculous.
31:24You get sucked in though, don't you?
31:25You just want grown up time.
31:26Yeah.
31:26I mean, the irony now that my kids actually, you know, can put themselves to bed,
31:30but I'm in bed way before bed.
31:33I love that though.
31:34The emphasis on sleep is so, so important.
31:37It changes everything.
31:37It's, it's the most, I'm fiercely protective over it.
31:42Luckily my boyfriend loves to go to bed early too.
31:44So we are like, there's no fights there.
31:46We're both like looking at the watch at seven going, is it too early?
31:48Is seven too early?
31:49I love that.
31:50You need someone who matches you on that.
31:51You really, really do.
31:52He and I have a good kind of wellness match, whatever that means.
31:56What do you think about the wellness boom though?
31:58Cause you made that show old before my time.
32:00And that was kind of all about longevity years before anyone was talking about longevity
32:05in the media.
32:06And now every new documentary or every new viral post on social media is about health
32:11span, lifespan, living longer, billionaires wanting to live to 150.
32:15You, again, were kind of trailblazing and talking about these things on telly way before.
32:20Are you a fan of the wellness boom?
32:21I read such a funny thing yesterday about the longevity thing and about billionaires being obsessed
32:26with it, which is, you know, they've all been such wrong.
32:29And so they're all, none of them want to go to hell.
32:30So they're all trying to live longer.
32:33And you know what?
32:34I laughed, but I was like, is that a joke or is it like, is it a bit on the
32:38nose?
32:40I, I want to live as long as possible because I'm really enjoying my, my go on the fairground
32:47ride to those planet earth.
32:49And there's so many more rides I want to go on.
32:52And I think now, you know, when you, you know, when you've got kids, I think it's
32:56just, it's kind of, you're going like hell for leather and just trying to keep everyone
32:59picked up from nursery and yourself and then fed in clothes and uniform.
33:03Oh God, where's the socks?
33:05I feel in a really like, really lovely place in my life at the moment where, you know,
33:10there's a, I have a bit more bandwidth for what I would like to do and what my next chapter
33:15looks like.
33:16But in order to do that, I need to be fit, healthy and strong.
33:20And I think 80, 80 roll cherry, who talks to me a lot, is dependent on what, how her
33:28life is, is dependent on the weight that I lift.
33:31First and foremost, the sleep that I get, the food that I eat.
33:35You know, obviously health things happen regardless of your life choices, but I would really love
33:41to still be going on holiday and having loads of fun with my boyfriend and my friends and
33:45my kids when I'm in my nineties.
33:48I always joke to my kids that I'm going to live till I'm 120, just to like scare them.
33:52I can't go nowhere.
33:54You can't have my nice bags for ages.
33:57Get your mitts off my stuff.
34:00But I, I'd like to give it a go.
34:03It's almost like a fun experiment to be like, oh, right.
34:05And it's also, it's almost like a game.
34:07I kind of see it like a game.
34:08Like, oh, I wonder, you know, and I love a, I love a supplement.
34:11I love a new trend.
34:12I love trying things out just kind of for the fun of it.
34:15I think when it starts to, when it starts to create an oppressive, stressful, you know,
34:23you're spending money you don't have on things that might not work, that's when to stop.
34:28I would say most women I know are really sensible about wellness.
34:34Most women I know, they read that.
34:36They go, I need to eat more protein.
34:37I'll just have a bit more Greek yogurt.
34:39Thank you for telling me.
34:41Fiber, yeah, I need to eat more leafy greens.
34:43I probably eat too many crisps at the moment.
34:45I know it, but you know, thank you.
34:47I, and these are the supplements.
34:48They try them.
34:49They like some, they don't.
34:50I don't see a lot of my friends and a lot of women like hounded by wellness problems.
34:56I think it's really good that people like you are calling out ridiculousness and your critical thinking is a blessing
35:03to us all.
35:03And I want to thank you so much for being that person.
35:06God bless you.
35:08But I think that a lot of women are really sensible about what they do and how they deal with
35:13it.
35:14I agree with you.
35:15The thing that worries me is how teenagers interact with wellness because they're the ones that are obsessive.
35:21They love a trend.
35:23They don't necessarily have the critical thinking ability to see past what they're being marketed.
35:28Absolutely.
35:29I mean, I was insane when I was 20.
35:32Yeah, I was completely mad for trends.
35:33I did every diet.
35:33I did.
35:34Do you remember the Atkins diet?
35:35Yeah.
35:35You're probably too young.
35:36No, I do remember.
35:37But I remember for me, it was my fitness pal.
35:39That was the big thing that everyone was obsessed with using.
35:42Oh yeah, tracking food.
35:42Oh my God.
35:43Really disordered, like tracking every single tiny little thing, but then also everyone being
35:47quite competitive about how little they'd eaten before a night out or something like that.
35:50And I still think that's going on.
35:52Yeah.
35:52I think the Pilates obsession and trend is really unhealthy.
35:56It's wild, isn't it?
35:57Because I don't think it's about being strong and lifting weights.
36:00I think it's about how good you look in a co-ord set.
36:02And it's the obsession with being tiny is back.
36:07Not about being strong and fit and healthy.
36:08It's about being teeny tiny.
36:10It's bones showing.
36:12It's going Pilates with your matching water bottle.
36:14Look, I don't mind that.
36:16I love a matching set.
36:17Don't get me wrong.
36:18Please don't think.
36:19Look, I love a matching gym set.
36:20I love looking nice when I go to the gym.
36:22I love a matching water bottle.
36:24Don't get me wrong.
36:24But I think when it's a thinly veiled cover for being malnutritioned and not having enough muscle on you and
36:35not having enough.
36:36Look, every kind of neuroses and every kind of unhealthy thing you can think about your body, I have been
36:43there.
36:43And I still fall into that now.
36:45I'll absolutely admit that.
36:47But you have to keep track.
36:49You never like, you never completely perfect and happy and well with your body.
36:53You know, I get sucked into things.
36:54And then I just have to remind myself gently.
36:56Change of focus.
36:58Fit, strong, healthy.
37:0088 and climbing up a mountain.
37:04You know, 88 and skiing with my kids.
37:06Yeah.
37:06Right.
37:07Running around on the beach with them.
37:09Paddle boarding.
37:10Right.
37:11So do we want to be skeletal and get osteoporosis and not eating up and fall over and break a
37:16hip?
37:17Yeah.
37:17No, we do not.
37:19Especially if I've worked hard and hopefully I'll be fit.
37:21So it's about just keeping a check on where your head is at and going, look, yes, I want to
37:27be fit and healthy.
37:27And I like wearing the clothes that I can fit.
37:30But what's my focus?
37:33Fit, healthy, strong and fed.
37:36Fit, healthy, strong and fed.
37:40And just don't get, I can always feel myself getting sucked into the like, the dark side.
37:46Keep yourself in the light.
37:47Keep yourself in a positive, healthy, spring in your step.
37:51Full like, well, you know, well fed.
37:54Eat the rainbow.
37:55Enough protein, enough fiber.
37:57Make sure you eat lots of sweets as well, because I love sweets.
37:59Keep it balanced.
38:00Sticky toffee pudding.
38:02Anything with custard.
38:03Yeah.
38:04Keep it joyful.
38:04Keep it balanced.
38:05Keep it in the light.
38:07And try not to get sucked into the dark side because it's very, very tempting.
38:10I think you're right.
38:11In your 20s more than ever, that's really tempting.
38:15I think that's such good advice.
38:16You know, just have context for who you want to be and the body that you want to live in
38:20as you age.
38:21That's, you know, it's all any of us are really moving towards.
38:24Everything else is a maybe.
38:26That is inevitable that you will be in your body forever.
38:29If you've got a supercar, are you just not, are you not going to put petrol in it?
38:32Are you not going to put oil in it?
38:33You're going to take it.
38:34You're going to wash it.
38:35You're going to clean it.
38:35You're going to make sure it's absolutely in tip top condition, but needs the correct fuel and it needs to
38:41be rested and you need good sleep.
38:43Get those right and you'll be banging.
38:46I also ask my guests, what makes them feel well enough?
38:49What would be your one, one tip, not for feeling perfect, but for just feeling well enough every day?
38:55This is such a boring one.
38:58Such a boring one.
38:59What's it going to be?
38:59Is it going to be sleep?
39:00No.
39:00I mean, yes.
39:01Sleep, sleepy, sleep, sleep.
39:02Sleep all day.
39:03I've never, there's no such thing as too much sleep.
39:06My boyfriend knows that I love, love a good cheeky lion.
39:09I love a snooze, I wake up and then go back to sleep, wake up and go back to sleep.
39:12I think, for me, it's about being at peace.
39:16It's so boring.
39:17You can't buy it in the shops.
39:18You can't buy it in Selfridges.
39:20But I think it's about, you know, journaling is such a fantastic, fantastic thing for me.
39:25And I can always feel the difference when I don't do it.
39:28A couple of lines of something you want.
39:30A couple of lines about how the day went, how it was, and then a little forecast to how you
39:37want the future,
39:38how you want tomorrow to be.
39:39So do you do kind of affirmations and prompts and all that kind of thing?
39:44I mean, it's so naff.
39:45No, I do it.
39:46I love it.
39:46I mean, it's-
39:47I'm into it.
39:48It's like, so cringy.
39:49And I'm so, like, burn those books when I die.
39:52Oh yeah, I don't want to read them back.
39:54But I think you need to get over the cringe and it is the best, healthiest habit.
39:59It doesn't matter if your body is well slept and you are, you know, the most kind of vitamined person
40:06in the world
40:06and your skin is glowing if you feel no peace.
40:10Peace is the most expensive, wonderful investment that you can give yourself.
40:15Five minutes a day, deep breath.
40:20Honestly, it's life changing.
40:22But there's no point in taking all those supplements if you feel uncomfortable in your body.
40:28And that starts with, like, it's an inside job.
40:31Told you it was boring.
40:33I don't think it's boring at all.
40:35But it's game changing.
40:36I would say, like, that five minutes is worth it.
40:39A total cognitive shift, right, really, really changes how you feel.
40:42And I think, I mean, affirmations, they work.
40:44They're done by Olympic athletes.
40:46They're done by the heads of industry, you know, CEOs.
40:50It's not just some airy-fairy thing.
40:52They are cognitively proven, science-backed.
40:56You know, tell yourself who you want to be and remind yourself every day who you are.
41:02Choose.
41:03You are much more malleable than you think you are.
41:06People just think, this is just who I am.
41:07Now, you can, you know, if you're struggling with something, you can shift it.
41:11But you just have to remind yourself who you are every single day.
41:14And what do you want?
41:16Set yourself goals.
41:17Have faith in yourself.
41:19As Bad Bunny says, believe in yourself.
41:22Right?
41:23He's our new philosopher.
41:24But it's true.
41:26But just five minutes every day.
41:28Five minutes three times a week.
41:30Carry a little book around with you.
41:33Game changing.
41:35Wonderful advice.
41:36Cherry Healy, thank you so much for joining me for Well Enough.
41:39Thank you so much.
41:39And when we come off air, will you tell me what your game changing tip is?
41:43100%.
41:43And thank you for watching this conversation with the amazing Cherry Healy.
41:46She is such a great advocate for women's health.
41:48If you liked this conversation, you should check out this episode with Dr. Rajaroura.
41:52All about endometriosis, the warning signs, advice for talking to your GP and how to advocate for yourself.
41:58Thanks for watching.
41:59We'll see you next time.
42:00We'll see you next time.
42:00Yes, we're going to see you next time.
42:00Thank you so much for watching us.
42:01ideas you, you know.
42:01There's a whole room with acapella poner up for us.
42:02If you're watching it, it's not possible to be.
42:03See you next time.
42:03Looking at that house with you.
42:04See you next time.
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