- 10 ore fa
Neil Druckmann intervista Hermen Hulst di Guerrilla Games su Horizon Zero Dawn per PlayStation 4.
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00:02Sì, ti senti a vedere?
00:05Ok.
00:13So, Herman, siamo qui.
00:15Abbiamo qui.
00:16Abbiamo qui.
00:17Abbiamo il tuo gioco che hai lavorato per quanto riguarda?
00:20Credo che è più di 6 anni.
00:22Più più 6 anni?
00:23Abbiamo mai lavorato in un gioco che tanto?
00:24Non ho mai lavorato in un gioco che tanto.
00:26Sì.
00:28Allora, la prima domanda che hai lavorato per 6 anni.
00:36Quanti anni hai lavorato per Killzone?
00:38Sì, abbiamo lavorato per Killzone in 2000.
00:43Ok.
00:44Sì, abbiamo lavorato per la lanza di PlayStation 4.
00:48Sì, 13, 14 anni?
00:51Sì.
00:52Ok.
00:53Sì, è molto tempo per essere in un gioco che hai lavorato in un gioco.
00:57Sì.
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02:37Sì.
02:38che è molto simile a quello che è stato molto simile, molto simile in mani spettacolo,
02:48in modo in modo in modo, in modo in modo, in modo in modo, in modo in modo,
02:51abbiamo fatto questo e abbiamo trasformato un po' più inizio di un super hero,
02:57che è stato più vicino per noi, in termini di corse,
03:02in modo di essere più in linea con la esperienza.
03:06and the other one was Horizon Zero Dawn
03:09Ok, so tell me
03:12you're seeing, you said 40 something pitches
03:14how do you
03:16which members are there watching this
03:18how do you decide as a group
03:20ok, we're going to go down this direction
03:23I think I assembled a little board
03:25with Michiel van der Leeu
03:28our technical director
03:29JB van Beek, our art director
03:32Angie Smets, our exec producer
03:34Matthijs de Jong, our game director
03:36and a few others
03:38that was the group that people pitched to
03:40and then we had a discussion about it
03:42because in my world
03:44a dialogue about stuff is always better
03:46than a scoring chart
03:48of how great it is
03:50I just want to feel how it
03:53feel out how
03:54enthusiastic people are
03:56and that usually works well
03:59but it was not easy
04:00it was not something
04:02we all knew what we wanted to do
04:04but that made no sense for us
04:06so you make
04:07you've made
04:09and maybe you'll make them again in the future
04:10more linear shooter
04:12in this grim reality
04:15and then now you're going to this
04:18lush, overgrown
04:20tribal, hunting, open world
04:24how scared are you?
04:26very, very scared
04:27and it was
04:30it actually was
04:31a big part of the decision
04:33that we wanted to make something
04:34that's just beautiful
04:35with Killzone
04:38there's beauty in it to me
04:39it's grim
04:40but we kind of call it gritty beauty
04:42the studio always
04:44and that was a big part of our decision
04:46we wanted to
04:47put the player into a world
04:49where you don't want to evacuate away from it
04:52if you don't want to escape, run away
04:54we wanted to have
04:58place the player in a world
04:59and have him spend time in it
05:01and it is just fun
05:02go explore
05:03and be in it
05:04we see that actually in the game right now
05:06that people just
05:07don't do anything for a while
05:09and just ride their horse
05:10their robotic horse
05:11just explore the old ruins
05:13and that part of the mission
05:16I think has been achieved
05:17just the beauty
05:18chasing beauty
05:18that sounds very similar to when we were doing
05:21Uncharted
05:22and to a large extent
05:23The Last of Us
05:24is the story is so dark
05:26we wanted the beauty of the world
05:28to be inviting
05:28so like you're saying
05:29like you're compelled to explore it
05:31to appreciate it
05:34and that would contrast
05:35kind of the more darker themes
05:36we're dealing with
05:37yeah
05:37well you guys must have
05:38kind of the opposite movement
05:40going a little bit darker
05:41into Tealu
05:43The Last of Us
05:43from Uncharted
05:44yeah it's
05:45you wanted dark
05:46it just
05:48that was just how the story evolved
05:50it's not like
05:51we had like a check for like
05:54oh we're gonna
05:55contrast what we've done before
05:56it's just that's the idea
05:57that rose to the top
05:58that we were excited by
06:01so I'm curious
06:04so I know from our experiences
06:05like what we start with
06:07like for example Uncharted
06:08started as a steampunk open world game
06:10that then evolved into this
06:12modern day pro-action adventure
06:14so I'm curious the evolution of Horizon
06:17and how close is the finished product
06:20to what you guys
06:21originally envisioned
06:23you know in some ways
06:24it's super close
06:25if you look at sort of
06:26the top line pitch of it
06:28the lush BBC nature documentary element
06:32robotic dinosaurs
06:33the red headed lead character
06:36in it all of that
06:37was in the original pitch
06:39which by the way was
06:40JB van Beek's original pitch
06:42our art director
06:43he was the guy that pitched it
06:45so all of that stands
06:47and it's kind of
06:48it almost sounds like
06:49too perfect
06:50we executed on the original vision
06:52but at the same time
06:54when you look at the core combat
06:56for instance
06:56the very first prototype we did
06:59had kill zone M82 guns in it
07:01and you were actually firing
07:03your submachine gun
07:05or your machine gun
07:05at these robotic dinosaurs
07:07and that very quickly felt weird
07:11that's what we had
07:12you start with the mechanics
07:13that you have
07:15and just conceptually
07:17to be making that much noise
07:19in a beautiful forest
07:20that was wrong
07:20so that was one of those moments
07:22where we realized
07:23you know what
07:23we actually need to produce
07:26not just the tribes cultures
07:28in this world
07:28the people that live in this world
07:30back to kind of the bronze age
07:31but the weaponry comes from that
07:32you know you really can only have
07:34access to spears and slingshots
07:36and bow and arrow
07:37and traps and things like that
07:39it was a big moment
07:40did you guys go
07:41shooting slingshots
07:43and bows and arrows
07:43and do research?
07:45some of us did
07:45yeah
07:45there were a lot of big gun guys
07:47that had to get some practice
07:50with bow and arrow
07:52so I know when we make our games
07:54and we're polishing them
07:55there's so much effort
07:56that goes into systems
07:58and aspects of tech
08:00that's invisible to the player
08:02like camera collision comes to mind
08:04like when a camera rotates
08:05and you don't want it to go through
08:07like a pole or a tree or something
08:08um
08:10obviously this is
08:11is your first third person game
08:13so maybe talk to me
08:14about something that comes to mind
08:16that's
08:17you think players might not appreciate
08:19but was like a huge challenge
08:20to overcome for you guys
08:24well you know
08:25on a very basic level
08:26when we
08:28we're making a first
08:31a first open world game
08:33from the first RPG game
08:34we had no tools
08:35whatsoever
08:36we started making it
08:37with the Killzone toolset
08:38which was not at all adequate
08:40for making a game like this
08:41so the entire toolset
08:43had to be created from scratch
08:45and we wanted to make
08:46a game that was
08:48you know
08:48of a similar kind of resolution
08:50to a first person shooter
08:53but then in the open world
08:55so the engine needed complete overhauling
08:57and it's
08:58none of that
08:59is actually
09:00code in the game
09:01right
09:01the tools guys
09:02they
09:03that's why we love them so much
09:04you know
09:04they are the kind of people
09:06that are making stuff
09:07that
09:07the end user doesn't see
09:09but it makes
09:10everybody else on the team
09:11super happy
09:12that's why they're
09:13they're real heroes on the team
09:15I hear you
09:16yeah
09:17I assume when you're making
09:18a game like this
09:19for so many years
09:21that you have
09:22low points in production
09:24where
09:24things aren't coming together
09:25or you
09:26you don't even have stuff
09:27on the screen
09:28and
09:29people lose
09:30morale
09:31they're starting to question
09:32the direction
09:33how have you dealt with that
09:35how do you make sure
09:35that people are inspired
09:37and
09:37they can see that far ahead
09:39of what this thing can become
09:43so many low points like that
09:44right during a six year development cycle
09:47I think it generally took
09:48a long time for us to
09:50to crack
09:52the core combat
09:54of fighting these robotic dinosaurs
09:56the
09:56amount of time it took us
09:59to make
10:00the first machine
10:01which was that big T-Rex
10:03the thunder jaw
10:04it was a year and a half
10:06so during that year and a half
10:08everybody starts
10:09doubting
10:10is this actually ever going to work
10:11what are we doing
10:12we're making
10:14you're firing
10:16arrows
10:17at this
10:17big overpowering machine
10:19how will that ever work
10:21when we cracked that
10:22we knew
10:23we were going to at least
10:24minimally have a good game
10:25in terms of gameplay
10:27but that took an awfully long time
10:29to get that
10:30so that waiting period
10:32that was a very long time
10:34another low point probably was
10:36it took us what
10:37four years of working on it
10:38before you can tell your friends
10:40and family really
10:41people talk a little bit
10:42right
10:42to people close to them
10:44but to not be able to share
10:46with the world
10:47you know
10:47what you're working on
10:49is hard
10:50it's super hard
10:50it's super hard
10:52I want to hear about your experience
10:53because you've had some time to play now
10:55do you haven't you
10:56yes I have
10:57how far in are you
10:58so I
11:01I'm not sure what the locations are called
11:03but I'm at the desert
11:04so it's the first time I see like
11:06one of those flying dinosaurs
11:08crocodile dinosaurs
11:10I think you are in main quest 7
11:13probably something like that
11:14yeah
11:14I think I'm level
11:1719 or 20
11:18that's pretty good
11:19yeah
11:19and it's pretty cool
11:20that I'm doing things
11:21in a different order
11:22than someone else that's playing the game
11:24yeah
11:24is doing it
11:26so that kind of sticks to mind
11:27and then
11:29the other thing that like
11:30the graphics are staggering
11:32I don't even think of it as graphics
11:34it's like I'm in the woods
11:35I'm in this overgrown environment
11:37and I'm like
11:37how are they getting so much foliage
11:39such density
11:41in an open world game
11:43you better believe I'm going to my team
11:45I'm saying like
11:45okay this is the bar now
11:47I want more foliage
11:49we have to top this
11:52it's awesome
11:53friendly competition
11:54more like studios
11:55and you know
11:55we talk about stuff
11:57we compare notes all the time
11:58about tools and design
12:00yeah we do
12:01we're all super excited for you guys
12:03we know how hard you've worked on this game
12:04that's so great to hear
12:06and then like the other thing is like
12:09how much I like Aloy
12:11and how cool of a character she is
12:13and I'm actually really curious
12:15like what was the development of her like
12:17like
12:18how was she pitched initially
12:20and obviously once you start writing
12:22you have more depth
12:23once you cast
12:24Ashley I assume like you get
12:26you're getting more depth
12:27in her interpretation of the material
12:29so just if you could talk about that process
12:31yeah yeah yeah absolutely
12:32so Aloy is our construct
12:36Gorilla created her
12:37but Ashley as the voice talent
12:41has been massively influential
12:43we
12:45I would say that she came together
12:47relatively late in the process
12:50it's a six year process
12:52and we brought on our lead writer
12:54the narrative director now
12:56John Gonzalez
12:58probably halfway through the product
13:00and he's been very very instrumental
13:02in bringing her to life
13:04and he said to me that Ashley's performance
13:08really inspired him
13:09so there was a lot of back and forth
13:10between how she delivered her lines
13:12and what he would write next
13:14and have her say
13:16so that was a really good dynamic between him
13:19it was hard because you know
13:21people on the commercial side
13:23usually ask what can you do
13:24like a half page on how she is
13:27right can you type up her character
13:29that was really hard
13:30that was really a difficult thing to do
13:32she came into existence
13:34while we were creating her
13:36but she was always going to be certain things
13:38she was always from the
13:39from the offset
13:40going to be an outcast
13:41right and that
13:42really determines
13:44how she approaches the world
13:45she's kind of fierce and tenacious
13:47that was that was always clear
13:50but I think while we developed her
13:52and after John gave her the main arc
13:55and a lot of the dialogue
13:57she became kind of a person
14:00with a lot of irony
14:01a good sense of humor
14:02a very amicable kind of person
14:04with a big heart
14:05even people that are mean to her
14:07she kind of embraces that
14:08so she's kind of bigger
14:09and maybe not necessarily
14:11what you would expect from an outcast
14:13but that just works for me
14:15very well in the game
14:16another big moment was when we
14:17were really looking for the right face
14:19for this character
14:20we're looking at age
14:21we're looking at who would
14:23and we're looking at big names
14:25models
14:26and then one of our producers
14:28was watching a Dutch movie
14:30he was out ill
14:31and generally don't watch Dutch movies
14:32there's not much for you to gain or learn
14:35but he was super happy
14:36and he set this girl Hanna Hoekstra
14:38and she's actually a really
14:39very talented actress
14:40she had that cheeky
14:43kind of fierce funny attitude
14:47when we met her
14:48and she was perfect
14:48so she's the likeness
14:50she gave her likeness to the character
14:54and then because she
14:56as a character
14:58she's outgunned
14:59and outpowered
15:00by those massive machines
15:01we needed her to be very agile
15:04and so the performance
15:06the motion capture stuff
15:08we used parkour actors for that
15:12so Aloy is actually based on three
15:15different people
15:16the face
15:17and then the voice
15:18which is a massive part
15:19and then the motion capture performance
15:22I'm curious
15:23I don't know if you guys set out to
15:27make the next iconic Playstation character
15:31but I think it's super awesome
15:33that you know there's a strong
15:36I would say non objectified female character out there
15:39and I know that you've been kind of tweeting like
15:43girls and women cosplaying as her
15:45like does the team feel that effect?
15:47that like you're having this positive impact on the gaming community
15:51and pushing that diversity?
15:56I wouldn't say we set it out as a goal
15:59during this project
16:01but it's
16:02John Gonzalez mentioned it too
16:04he said this was an epic journey
16:06and with all epic journeys
16:08that leaves you changed
16:10as a person that contributed
16:12and I believe that this has really struck a chord with the team
16:17that diversity actually works for us
16:19it's not something we're trying to push
16:21but it's something that just we found to be
16:24we experience it to be very invigorating
16:26people really really like it
16:28the fact that there's not just a female lead
16:30but there's so many different ethnicities
16:32and different kind of backgrounds
16:33in the world that we created
16:37we have a probably like you guys as well
16:40you know 30, 35 different nationalities
16:42and people from all walks of life
16:43it's really nice to see people represented
16:46even though that wasn't the primary goal
16:49and it's
16:51we get a lot of questions about
16:53from some countries more so than from other countries
16:55did you not consider a male character
16:58and is that commercially smart to do that
17:01and the honest answer is
17:03we never considered not having her be a female character
17:08and frankly we didn't really set out for her to be a strong female lead
17:13because often times female leads need to be strong female leads
17:19Aloy gets beaten sometimes
17:21she's fierce and strong in the sense that she'll fight back
17:24but you know she'll find her match sometimes
17:27so she can't always
17:28we wanted her to be fundamentally human
17:31and fundamentally human people can be really strong
17:34but they're sometimes weak as well
17:36so strong to me means complex
17:38yeah
17:39at times she's strong
17:41at times she's weak
17:41at times she's happy
17:42at times she's really vulnerable
17:44and it's cool to see all those aspects of her as I'm playing the game
17:48and because the game is so wide
17:51and I have all these interesting relationships with different characters
17:54I get to see all these different facets of her as a character
17:57yeah
17:57and that is actually embracing that complexity
18:01because these days somehow everything needs to be a one liner
18:03or a simple kind of write up
18:05these characters are they are many different things
18:08she happens to be female
18:10but her gender doesn't completely define her
18:13maybe partially but that's only part of her
18:15the fact that she's an outcast is just as important
18:19but it's an interesting notion
18:21and I'm curious to hear your opinion about it
18:23because relatability if that's an English word
18:26is actually really important
18:27right when you make a character
18:29to me there was a big difference between being
18:31being able to identify with a person that's very different as you
18:35might be more difficult
18:36but that doesn't mean that you cannot relate
18:38to a person like that
18:39so to have those moments in there for instance
18:42and you've played that sequence
18:43when there's a little boy that's really mean
18:46and to give you those emotional choices
18:49I tried throwing the rock right at his face
18:51right?
18:51I never doubted that
18:53good on you man
18:54good on you
18:56but that makes you express how you relate to a character like that
19:00and that even though you are not
19:03you're never going to be a red-headed girl
19:05that stuff is always interesting to me
19:07and I for the most part disagree with it
19:09that I can't relate to someone because I'm a different race
19:13I'm a different gender
19:14I have different sexual orientation
19:17and I always find it weird that people say that
19:19but I'm like but you're okay playing a murderer
19:22like how can you relate to that
19:24but not to someone that's a different gender
19:25so to me it's kind of nonsense
19:27and I find that the more a person is real
19:31and complex and human
19:33the more I relate to them
19:34no matter what their background or
19:37that's a cool part
19:38whatever identity they have
19:40there's stuff in every character you can relate to
19:43not to everything a character is
19:46but to some parts at least
19:48yeah to me like I disconnect with a character
19:51not because they're different from me
19:53but because they're inconsistent
19:55or they're contrived to try to tell some kind of plot point
19:58and therefore the storytelling wasn't honest
20:01yeah so you got about 5-6 hours into the game
20:04no I'm like 8 hours
20:0615 hours into the game
20:07really?
20:08so you did a lot of side content
20:09yeah yeah yeah
20:10I'm like I played a lot with like photo mode
20:13I'm like I gotta keep taking pictures
20:16so are you directing the title that's coming out this year?
20:23no
20:23you're not
20:23so Uncharted The Lost Legacy
20:26yeah
20:26TM
20:27I'm not
20:28I worked a little bit with that team
20:30to help set up the outline for that narrative
20:33for the story
20:34and then I kind of walked away
20:36and like really let them own it
20:39so it's pretty cool in that
20:42similar to Uncharted 3
20:44where I wasn't really involved with that game
20:45I get to play a Naughty Dog game
20:48almost with fresh eyes
20:49how nice is that?
20:50that's pretty awesome
20:50and so you're not really involved in any of the play testing
20:53and providing feedback during the course of that?
20:56no I'm really trying to stay away
20:58I do a little bit of mentoring with the people running that project
21:01so I meet with them and help more with production and pipeline
21:05but I'm trying to hold off as long as possible playing the actual sequences
21:09what a luxury position to be in
21:11yeah that's pretty awesome
21:12we'll see
21:12not only I'll be able to wait until the game is fully done
21:16so I think one of the upcoming focuses
21:18I'm going to sit down and play it
21:19wow
21:19man we're excited about that too
21:23super excited
21:23I'm curious for you guys
21:24like so you've finished
21:27you're not going to tell me what you're doing next
21:28whatever whatever
21:29I'm going to ask anyways
21:29yeah
21:31are people already starting to work on the next thing?
21:34obviously people are taking long vacations
21:35they've worked very hard
21:36but I know there's people on that team that are so eager
21:39that they're like they're going to take one week off
21:41and they're already back in the office
21:42working on the next thing
21:44yeah we do that as you do
21:47where you give
21:48try to give people time off
21:49but there's like the day one patch
21:51and there's a launch trailer
21:53so there's not really much time left
21:56it's actually been
21:57these weeks are actually vacation for people coming out to GDC
22:01and meeting their ex-colleagues
22:04and hanging out here watching talks
22:06that is a big vacation
22:08we had some of the guys that headed out to support Kojima Productions
22:13we had a big group that actually did a world tour
22:15they flew from Amsterdam to Tokyo
22:17and then around the world
22:19so that was a
22:19it's been Guerilla Games around the world
22:22because I think we did events in 15 countries
22:25or something like that
22:26the app group of people sharing their experience
22:29which has been really fun
22:31I'm due for a little bit of relaxation actually
22:34after this long process
22:35how much are you guys
22:39I know this is sometimes unhealthy
22:40but I can't help myself
22:42go on NeoGAF
22:44go on all these forums
22:45reading people's impressions
22:46reading reviews
22:47positive and negative
22:48yeah
22:49you know I know it's kind of en vogue to say
22:52that we don't care about the reviews
22:54and you know we don't look at the GAF
22:56reality is everybody does it
22:58right
22:58it is just
23:01I think it's just normal and healthy
23:04to want to get a good mark from the teacher
23:07when you've done your homework
23:08and that's how it feels
23:10people were ecstatic
23:11when they saw some of those really positive reviews come in
23:14and there's a lot of great stuff
23:17you know photo mode threat on the GAF for instance
23:19is that we look at that
23:21some of the guys tweet it out too
23:23sometimes you find out about stuff first by being on the GAF
23:27and I'm not that much on it myself
23:28but we have some people that really mine it
23:30and fair is fair
23:32yeah yeah I remember whenever our games ship
23:35I'm like I'm there for like a couple days
23:36you've lived there for a while
23:37I've lived there for a while
23:38yeah you learn about your stuff
23:39in an unhealthy sort of way
23:42you've got to unwind after that too
23:44because there's so much to read
23:46and you can't read everything
23:47that's why you need like a vacation
23:48where you just turn everything off
23:49and just disappear for a while
23:51go black
23:51the black box
23:52yeah
23:54well man congrats
23:55it's a really cool game
23:56thank you
23:56I can't wait to fly back home
23:57and get back into it
23:59yeah
24:00we'll talk about it more
24:01after you platinum it
24:03yeah and congrats to the whole team
24:05I know how hard you guys worked on it
24:06so you should be really proud
24:08if you guys have people that want to play it
24:10and don't have copies
24:11then give me a shout
24:12oh they all bought it already
24:14so
24:14good even better
24:17alright Herman
24:17thanks new
24:18really good chatting this morning
24:20likewise
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