Children. One law meant for terrorists. One question Malaysia can’t ignore.
Minors, including a 17-year-old, were detained under SOSMA — raising concerns over child rights, due process and national security. Jernell Tan from SUARAM breaks it down.
Watch now.
#TopNews #SOSMA #ChildRights #HumanRights #SinarDaily
Minors, including a 17-year-old, were detained under SOSMA — raising concerns over child rights, due process and national security. Jernell Tan from SUARAM breaks it down.
Watch now.
#TopNews #SOSMA #ChildRights #HumanRights #SinarDaily
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NewsTranscript
00:00Hello and good morning everyone. Actually, is it morning? Is it afternoon? I mean, does it matter because it's bulan
00:04puasa?
00:05So hi guys, I'm Tasim Lokman and you are watching Sinar Daily. We're on Top News Podcast and today with
00:12me is Janelle Tan.
00:13She is the, let me get this right, documentation and monitoring coordinator for SWARAM.
00:20So what is SWARAM? SWARAM is Swara Rakyat Malaysia. Swara Rakyat Malaysia, that is an NGO that fights for the
00:29rights to fair trial, police accountability, death and torture in custody and freedom of assembly among others, right?
00:37Right.
00:38Okay, so it's just generally human rights and rights accountability to the police and being arrested and things like that.
00:46I would say mainly civil and political rights and also in very quote-unquote sensitive issues where redress may be
00:53difficult to find.
00:53So death in custody being one of it, torture in custody being one of it and of course if you
00:58are victims of misconduct by the police for example.
01:01But yeah.
01:02Okay, alright. Thank you so much for being here today and we're going to be talking about something super serious
01:06and it's not even a joke because I take this seriously as well.
01:09I mean, I take everything seriously but this is very serious because it involves children.
01:13Children, okay. Children, just to be clear, children is anyone below the age of 18, right?
01:19Yes.
01:19Okay. So we will be looking at the case that challenges the very boundaries of how Malaysia protects its children
01:26because on February 15, six children, okay, were arrested under SOSMA, the law, a security law designed for terrorists and
01:34high-level threats.
01:37Among other laws, include POCA as well, right?
01:41Right. I mean, not the arrests but the security laws in Malaysia.
01:45Yep, security laws. There is the Prevention of Crime Act. There's also the Prevention of Terrorism Act and there's also
01:50another one that might not receive as much public attention which is the Dangerous Drugs Special Preventive Measures Act.
01:57Oh, wow.
01:57That one is once you get arrested under that law, you automatically get detained for two years.
02:04Two years automatically?
02:05Yes.
02:06Oh my god, that sounds scary.
02:07Yes, it is.
02:07Do you have like legal representation under that?
02:11No, that means once you get the detention order, you're just kept somewhere for two years and it's renewable by
02:17the Home Minister.
02:18Legal representation may be quite difficult but in general, even for statistics, even for a swarm site to even get
02:24hold of how many people get detained under that specific Dangerous Drugs Special Preventive Measures Act, very hard.
02:30Even if we work with the MPs to get it, not easy to get. Normally, for statistics that we get
02:35of arrests in general for the security laws, it's SOSMA mainly.
02:39Okay, alright. So, let's talk about that on another day but it's very interesting to find out further on that.
02:45So, let's go back to the topic where among the six children include a 17-year-old from Alosta whose
02:53family described he was a very quiet homebound boy but he was arrested.
02:59They were released today?
03:00Released last Friday.
03:02Last Friday, okay. They were released last Friday and they were detained. All the six children were detained for about
03:0816 days.
03:09As of, well, that was around a week before the release. But if you count up to the day of
03:16release, it's 26.
03:1726 days.
03:1826, which is right up, very close to the 28-day detention mark because under Section 45 of the procedural
03:25law SOSMA, the police, once they arrest you using that procedural law,
03:29they can straightaway detain you for 28 days straight in their lockup without having to bring you to the magistrate
03:35for the remand application that we normally, you know, see under the criminal procedure.
03:40Okay, everything sounds super scary and you have to keep in mind these are children, like teenagers, okay. Not even
03:45adults.
03:47Yes, we're talking about 16 to 17-year-olds too.
03:5016 to 17-year-olds, high school students, Form 5 and Form 4.
03:53Form 4, Form 5.
03:54Some of them are actually sitting for SPM, right?
03:56In fact, among them, they were actually, some of them were actually waiting for the SPM results.
04:01Oh, my God.
04:03Yes.
04:03Okay.
04:04Yeah.
04:04Alright.
04:05Okay, so thank you so much for joining us and everything sounds super scary and that was a short introduction.
04:10So let's understand, Janelle, why is the government using national security as a justification to strip these children of the
04:17basic protection?
04:18They are guaranteed under Malaysian law.
04:20Sorry, before I proceed, just wanted to clarify.
04:23So we initially knew that there were six, we assumed that there were six based on preliminary information from the
04:29family member.
04:29But we found out once the Inspector General Police came out through the press conference that it was actually three,
04:35so three.
04:36Okay.
04:36Yep.
04:37Alright.
04:37So in Kedah and also Selangor, respectively.
04:40But coming back to your question, so the typical justifications that we find would be, I would break it down
04:46to two, but they are very much interrelated.
04:49Number one is terrorism is an extreme case that requires extreme measures.
04:53And they apply the same narrative to other categories of crime, which they use SOSMA for arrest, such as organized
05:00crime and also trafficking of migrants and also offenses against the state.
05:05So you know how the Article 124B, you know the recent investigation, right?
05:09That, just for your information, even that particular provision actually can fall under the jurisdiction of SOSMA if the police
05:16chooses to use it to arrest people.
05:18So, but yeah, coming back to that.
05:20So that's the first one.
05:21So terrorism is something that is quite extraordinary and because it's so threatening, the government will justify that that's why
05:29we need to use certain procedures to do this arrest or that's why these people need to be treated in
05:33a certain way.
05:34So that's the first narrative.
05:35The second one, which also came out, when Home Minister Saifeddin Nasution spoke out, I think two weeks ago, after
05:43our press conference outside Bukit Aman, his justification was that the investigation was complex, need time, not just one, two
05:53days, but weeks to actually do the quote-unquote profiling verification with XYZ authorities.
06:00And they are alleging that it's a cross-border thing, so because they mentioned it was some Indonesian WhatsApp links
06:07or something.
06:07So they were looking, they were seeking verification with a neighbouring country.
06:11So they claim that this actually requires time.
06:14However, what I would like to point out is that when it comes to, well, these two justifications in this
06:20context do not hold water.
06:21Number one, we already have a law, i.e. the Child Act, which should be used when it comes to
06:27the arrest and detention of children.
06:28So this, by right, should precede every other law in this country.
06:32That's number one.
06:33Number two is when it comes to what they say about the complex investigations, right?
06:37So keep in mind that the police could have done their due diligence when it comes to preliminary investigations.
06:43Based on our experience when it comes to SOSMA cases in general, police tends to do this.
06:50That means like when they capture people, they capture everyone in the same area.
06:55So sometimes you actually find wrongful arrests.
06:58So people who were there at the wrong place at the wrong time or who happen to know this person
07:02who may be related but knows nothing, they might get sucked into it.
07:07And then, so when you look at these children, on the other hand, like terrorism is a very, very serious
07:12allegation.
07:13So do they actually do it?
07:15We don't know.
07:15But there should have been sufficient investigations to determine the intent or if there is such and such concrete plans
07:22and such.
07:23So without that being established, they proceed to arrest.
07:26That's not justifiable.
07:27Even if they claim that they need time and all that stuff.
07:30Plus, not to mention as well, which we might go on further, is whilst they do their so-called investigations,
07:36whilst detain these children, what are these children doing in the lockups?
07:39That's another critical question to dissect.
07:42But, okay, can we just touch on that?
07:43Because it was almost 28 days, right?
07:46Yeah.
07:46So could you just give a picture of what actually happens in the lockup for children under SOSMA?
07:52So from the cases that came to us, I can, because after all, I'm three years in the SOSMA, so
07:58of course I've heard about long-standing cases and what tends to happen.
08:03But if I were to relate to what I hear based on my communications with family members and also the
08:09victims concerned for these cases, you're looking at children being in solitary confinement.
08:16Okay.
08:16And these rooms are lit up 24-7 and I will get to the effects later.
08:22And when it comes to questioning, well, basically SOSMA does not distinguish between an adult, an allergic adult, and an
08:29allergic child offender.
08:30So whatever that may have been applied to an adult offender would very well be applied to a child.
08:34So we're looking at protracted questioning.
08:36So we've had, well, at least these children, some of them, they've actually gone through daily questioning by police officers.
08:44Like, you're talking about an hour or two minimum every day being brought to the interrogation room, being interrogated by
08:50the same bunch of police officers, being pressured.
08:53Like, when you don't give them, quote-unquote, the answers that they want, they keep on pressuring you until you
08:58give in and you give them what they want.
08:59And then the statements that were generated under these circumstances, these will be used against you if charges will be
09:07pressed at all.
09:09And keep in mind that just because, you know, the person is pressured to giving these statements, it does not
09:15mean that the person did it.
09:16The person merely complied after extensive pressure by the police officers.
09:19So you're looking at this situation, for example.
09:22Okay, I'm just hearing whatever you said here.
09:25And when they're in questions, right, and they're being interviewed by the police and being asked,
09:33is there a legal representative present, regardless if it's an adult or a child?
09:37So here's the thing.
09:38When it comes to SOSMA, right, there is a provision that actually gives the police discretion to deny you for
09:45the first 48 hours of arrest, access to lawyer.
09:48And even this, one may not think too much of this, but this is actually crucial because anything can happen
09:54within the first 48 hours.
09:56And normally for any layperson, we don't know our rights, right?
09:59And having a lawyer is extremely important in establishing that.
10:02So in this case as well, from what I understood, the children were also denied that straight away for 48
10:08hours.
10:08And from what I heard, they were actually given a form to sign.
10:11And when they were given this form to sign, they were concurrently told that you cannot have access to lawyer
10:15for 48 hours.
10:17So imagine the fear that a child had to go through, not knowing how to navigate this landscape at all.
10:22Okay.
10:23Okay, lawyers are one thing.
10:25But can I ask you this very, very sensitive question?
10:27Sure.
10:28Where were the parents?
10:29So the thing is, so for the parents, because the cases that we managed involve the children from another state.
10:37Okay.
10:37So the parents obviously were not here in Kuala Lumpur.
10:40So family visits wise, it would be already difficult logistically because of the cross-state travel.
10:45But at the same time, there are also restrictions when it comes to family visits.
10:48It really depends on the police, whether discretion is granted or not.
10:52And from the cases that we received, two of them,
10:56the family was only able to come to Bukit Aman to visit their children two to two and a half
11:02weeks after being first arrested.
11:04Two and a half weeks.
11:06Yes.
11:06And even if they want to try to call their children, it depends on the investigating officer.
11:12So the parents would be in contact with the investigating officer.
11:16And it would be the investigating officer who would tell them whether they can have the call or not.
11:19But I've had one case where when the family member, when this person contacted the I.O. to ask if
11:26they could speak to the child, right?
11:29Initially, and this is in the early days of detention, right?
11:31The I.O. said, we will allow you to speak if the child cooperates.
11:36Yes.
11:38So this is not in isolation.
11:40So keep in mind that the police may also do the same thing to the child.
11:43As in, like, in order to pressure the child to, quote-unquote, plead guilty.
11:48I mean, not that charges were at all ascertained at the time.
11:51But police can say things like, if you don't cooperate with me, or if you don't plead guilty in court
11:56later,
11:57your family members might get in prison for it.
11:59So imagine the same, similar stuff happening to the child.
12:01So it's like intimidation on both sides.
12:03But coming back to your question, yes, restrictions on family calls, family visits.
12:08Even for calls, I would like to emphasize that it's monitored.
12:10As in, imagine, like, when the child speaks to the parent over the phone, it's not private, you know?
12:16Like, it's on, the police officers get to listen in.
12:19Similarly, for family visits, officers are in the vicinity.
12:22Similarly, as well for consultations with lawyers, no privacy at all.
12:26Okay.
12:27That's very scary.
12:29And it's even more scary because it's a child who rarely knows their own rights to begin with, right?
12:35Unless they watch Law & Order or something.
12:38But yeah, that's a different story.
12:40So, okay, now we have gotten the picture.
12:43Could you tell me, like, why was this, what was the situation for you guys?
12:49Like, Swaram, what did Swaram do to manage?
12:52I mean, it's not the first time children have been arrested under Swasma, right?
12:55No, it wasn't.
12:56In 2019, there was also a case, I think.
12:59When the statistics first surfaced, to my understanding, back in, I think it was 2017 or 2018.
13:05Okay.
13:06Yeah.
13:06Back then, Home Minister Zahid Hamidi.
13:09Yeah.
13:10He responded to Charles Santiago, MP, back then MP Glenn, Charles Santiago's question in parliament about the statistics.
13:17It pertained to SOSMA and POCA.
13:19So, I remember all of the 159 statistics, 17 were detained under SOSMA and the remainder was under POCA.
13:25So, back then, after that, Swaram and Suhakam did join hands to hold a press conference to raise awareness on
13:32this issue.
13:33And it created pressure enough for back then Deputy Prime Minister Wan Aziza to actually say we will review the
13:39use of these laws.
13:40So, that was back then.
13:41But fast forwarding now, as you can see there.
13:43It's still not being reviewed.
13:46But apparently, there is like plans to amend the SOSMA Act, right?
13:50Yes.
13:50Made in February.
13:51The promise was made in February last year.
13:53Today.
13:53Okay.
13:54Since it's...
13:55We've seen it happen.
13:56And it was literally under Wan Aziza and now her husband is the Prime Minister.
14:00Yes.
14:02There's been...
14:03It's more...
14:03It's about 10 years?
14:05Nine years.
14:07Nine years.
14:07Maybe since 2017.
14:08Nine years.
14:09Yeah, yeah, yeah.
14:10So, like, since then, children are still arrested and there are still questions why aren't they being arrested under the
14:15Child Act or Penal Code instead of being brought under the SOSMA, right?
14:20So, was there like any explanation as to why it keeps happening from the police side or from you guys?
14:26To be honest, if you ask me, I'm not sure because I actually do not understand because if you look
14:33at Section 83 of the Child Act 2001, right, it literally says notwithstanding any written act.
14:39Like, when it comes to the arrest and detention of any child, the Child Act takes precedence.
14:43So, honestly, we do not understand how come the government still goes on this parallel mindset.
14:49I mean, I would call it a parallel mindset where they may use the Child Act for other offences but
14:54then when it comes to certain other ones, they somehow think that they can actually use SOSMA to override the
14:59Child Act.
14:59Right. So, this one is something that we've been advocating for, like, for a significant period of time.
15:07So, honestly, I do not understand because the Child Act is actually very clear on that one.
15:12Okay. So, there's still no answer as to why?
15:14No answer. No answer. Somehow, yeah, honestly, I do not understand.
15:18I only know about the… I do… I am aware that there have been court challenges when it comes to,
15:24you know, the Baitul Mahiba, you know, the Immigration Detention of Children, right?
15:27So, in that context, I believe certain challenges were mounted in the courts regarding the use of the Immigration Act
15:33to arrest and detain children.
15:34And under that circumstance, the judge, I believe, said that the Child Act takes precedence but that's pertaining to immigration,
15:41which is a general law.
15:42So, to date, there has been no court challenges with regards to the use of SOSMA on arrest and detain
15:47children.
15:48However, that's something that we probably would look to if, you know, a similar institution comes up.
15:52Okay. But Swaram has talked about the arrest of children in relations to security threats.
15:59I mean, not security threats, security-related offences.
16:04And you guys have proposed that it should be a holistic institutional response and it should be seen as victims.
16:12Yes, correct.
16:13And Social Welfare Department should come in as well.
16:15I mean, it's true. They're children. They don't know what they're doing.
16:18If you want to be honest, like, in general, children are still children, right?
16:22Yeah.
16:24So, has Social Welfare Department stepped in?
16:27And also, like, could you elaborate further on treating them as victims instead of criminals?
16:32So, on your first half of the question, so whether JKM officers intervene.
16:37So, I have to be honest in that among the cases that we manage, the child has still...
16:43There are some children who still have not come forth because they're not ready to speak to us.
16:48Like, that points to you...
16:50How traumatized.
16:51Just how far...
16:52Yes.
16:52How far it goes.
16:54But fortunately, I've been able to speak to at least one of them.
16:57And from what I've heard, JKM officers did not...
17:01For this particular case, JKM officers did not visit the child early on detention.
17:06In fact, it was just once.
17:07And it was in the context of a joint questioning occasion with the investigating officer.
17:14And, I mean, from what I heard, the JKM officer did speak informally to the child.
17:20However, at the same time, within the joint questioning process, the JKM officer was an observer.
17:24What's especially concerning to me is that no private, unmonitored visit was granted for the JKM officer to the child.
17:32Which, for me, is very essential.
17:33Because even in the child, I mean, JKM was actually an established safeguard when it comes to ensuring the condition
17:38of welfare of the child.
17:39So, if this visit was not even granted in that process, how can you ensure that the child is...
17:44You know, the mental and emotional well-being are actually fine and all the rights that he'll do.
17:48No, this safeguard was not carried out, especially for this particular child.
17:51Okay, some people might say, hey, this kid is involved in terrorism.
17:55Like, they should be treated as terrorists.
17:58But I think a lot of people are overlooking the fact that they are still underage and minors, right?
18:04So, what do you have to say to the critics out there who keep on justifying this with that point
18:11of view?
18:12So, I think this one I can concurrently address with the victims of exploitation one.
18:17So, when we look at these cases, for example, we're looking at a support system or rather an environment in
18:25which the child, due to many factors, may have been radicalised.
18:30Rather, they may have gotten exposure to certain content without supervision, not necessarily due to any particular party's fault disproportionately.
18:38But this one, if you take on the terrorist approach and just judge it harshly, you would be ignoring that
18:46this is actually a systemic problem.
18:47You're talking about parents may not be having enough time or even enough knowledge to understand that the children may
18:54have gotten exposed to this.
18:55So, they were not able to play their role adequately to stop that before happening.
19:00What about schools?
19:01What about peer networks and influence?
19:05When you take the terrorist harsh stance, you're actually taking a punitive route.
19:10You're punishing them for something that every other party should have certain levels of responsibility in preventing.
19:17And at the same time, not forgetting that when you arrest and detain a child under SOSMA, because SOSMA on
19:23a long-standing basis, it has this connotation of a criminal.
19:26Whether you are ultimately charged or not, as long as you have been arrested before, that's it.
19:32So, the label would carry on with you for life.
19:34If people know about this about you, can you imagine the isolation that the child has to go through?
19:40Maybe, who knows, even access to education later?
19:44Because these children are secondary school students.
19:45Imagine the effects, the dominant effects it would have in terms of their access to tertiary education, vocational education, access
19:52to employment, for instance.
19:53How can you help them become a productive member of society?
19:57In fact, on the other hand, when you stigmatize them that way, you'll be playing a role in pushing them
20:03towards, who knows?
20:05They might have not committed it now, but they might have committed it later, because they have been left with
20:09no other way, but to resort to the networks that they found their sense of belonging initially.
20:14So, for me, that lies the shortcoming in the terrorist narrative.
20:19Okay.
20:19Alright.
20:20So, I think, aside from that, people are trying to understand how is it illegal or legal?
20:27Meaning to say, yes, you mentioned just now that it doesn't matter if it's children or adults, you can still
20:33be charged under SOSMA.
20:34But then, the Children's Act and the, what do you call that, Convention of the Rights of the Children should
20:41proceed over the SOSMA Act, right?
20:43So, could you elaborate further, like, how can this grey area happen?
20:49Because I understand you can use penal code instead of SOSMA to charge the children, right?
20:54So, just to clarify, SOSMA, you know how the Criminal Procedure Code is like a procedure?
20:59Yeah.
21:00So, SOSMA is a procedure, imagine, so CPC, Criminal Procedure Code, it's a procedure that the police uses, like, it
21:07details, like, how the arrest can be conducted, the questioning and all that stuff, the rights of the detained persons
21:13and all that stuff.
21:14So, CPC is for crimes in general, but when it comes to certain, quote-unquote, high-level offence, or high
21:21-security offences, SOSMA is this alternative procedure that the police would use for certain crime categories.
21:30So, ultimately, whether you are arrested under the CPC or SOSMA, when you get charged in court, it's under the
21:37Penal Code, under the respective applicable provision.
21:40Okay, alright, so, in general, can we understand further, because under the Convention of the Rights of the Child, detention
21:51of a minor must be the last resort, right?
21:53Yes, last resort.
21:54So, has the Malaysian state failed in its international commitments by choosing SOSMA punitive quick fixes over non-custodial rehabilitation
22:05for these children?
22:06In these instances of, I mean, arrest and detention of children under SOSMA, yes, whether it's the February 15th one,
22:12or even more egregiously, the January case.
22:15For the January case, for people who may not be aware, this 16-year-old girl was detained under SOSMA,
22:21not because of allergic commitment of anything, she just happened to be in the same car as her dad, who
22:27was a suspected transporter.
22:28Oh, okay.
22:29So, she was arrested, and Saifuddin's claim was that she was a critical witness, so need to detain her, which
22:36makes absolutely no sense.
22:38That one is even more ridiculous.
22:41But anyhow, for these child detention cases under SOSMA in general, yes, we would say that it's a contravention of
22:47international obligations for the CRC that we're ratifying,
22:51because we don't even have reservations over that particular provision, actually.
22:55No reservations.
22:56Okay.
22:56Yeah.
22:57Okay, it's ironic that you see that happening, and in the next few weeks, you see this February case happening.
23:02Yeah, like, in succession, actually, one in January, and then three in February.
23:06Exactly.
23:06Yes.
23:07Okay, I hope nothing more happens after this.
23:09We hope so.
23:10We hope so.
23:11But, okay, I think that's quite extensive.
23:14Like, it's very technical, but I hope people understand.
23:17So, I think before we complete this interview, like, I'd like to ask about the proposed tabling of SOSMA.
23:25Yeah.
23:25Like, there's plans to amend it in June or July.
23:30Yes.
23:30So, this is definitely, like, something that's been waiting for a long time.
23:35Very long time.
23:35Almost, almost 10 years.
23:37It's six, nine years.
23:38Yeah.
23:39So, like, could you give me, could you draw some idea on what needs to be drawn?
23:47Or boundaries needs to be set?
23:48Yeah.
23:49Of course, Swaram's long-standing stance on SOSMA is the repeal of the entire procedural law
23:56because it violates the fundamental right to fair trial and not to mention evidentiary standards in the Evidence Act on
24:03many fronts.
24:05I mean, I can go into it at another session, but in short, SOSMA is something that should be repealed.
24:10However, given the government's commitment to amendments for the sake of progress, we would take it.
24:16And our emphasis, of course, there are so many provisions that need to be amended.
24:20But if you want me to emphasize on three, I'll give you three.
24:24One is Section 45, which is the 28-day detention period without magistrate oversight.
24:28So, what our recommendation is, is to break it up.
24:33That means, like, to be like CPC.
24:35So, you have to, you break them up into different shorter periods and make sure at every stage you go
24:39back to the magistrate to apply for remunt.
24:41Because the magistrate oversight, one, is the separation of powers.
24:45But the other equally important reason is that the magistrate can act as a very important check and balance when
24:50it comes to, let's say, if you get coerced.
24:52If you go through the same as the children did, coerced confessions, and I have to, I'm sorry for not
24:57bringing much earlier, but we've received accounts where the children, right, like, when they do not, quote-unquote, cooperate with
25:03the police in giving them the answers that they wanted, they were actually made to do star jumps and pumps.
25:09And these are children who may not have that stamina.
25:12So, that's a form of ill treatment.
25:14So, if you have a magistrate as a check and balance, you can bring this to the magistrate and this
25:20magistrate will check and balance the police, right?
25:22Shorting the period, et cetera.
25:23So, that's one.
25:24The second one is Section 13, which is bail.
25:27For SOSMA, for example, Section 13 grants that, provides that bail is not granted by default, but exceptions apply when
25:35you apply for it.
25:36If you're a child, if you're a woman, if you're sick and infirm.
25:39So, for adults especially, we say that Section 13 needs to be amended because when the, in most cases, the
25:45persons detained are breadwinners.
25:48That has spillover effects on financial security, emotional well-being of the family as a whole, even in some cases,
25:54the integrity of the family unit.
25:56So, that's number two.
25:58Number three, which is Section 30.
26:00So, Section 30 provides that a detainee, if the prosecution applies to the court saying that they want this person
26:07to be detained in prison until they have finished all proceedings, including appeals, the court can grant that.
26:13This one, arbitrary, it deprives the person to get out.
26:18Of course, it affects other rights as well.
26:21So, we also advocate that Section 30 be repealed.
26:24So, these are the top three.
26:25So, amend Section 4-5 or abolish it altogether.
26:29Amends Section 13 to ensure that bail is granted.
26:32That means, like, court has discretion to grant bail, not just denied by default.
26:36Part three is repeal Section 30 entirely.
26:38Okay, I think, like, I really need to ask this question again, just to clarify and make sure everyone understands.
26:45Because I think a lot of people out there are also asking where were their parents this whole time.
26:50I mean to say, aside from them during the arrest, were the parents or the guardians involved with the children
26:58being questioned?
26:59Because we saw the 15-year-old was there arrested during when the father was caught, right?
27:05So, what about the three children arrested under Sosma?
27:11No, it was just the children who were arrested.
27:13So, the parents did not know.
27:16That means, so what happened was the police went to the respective family homes to look for the children specifically,
27:24just those three.
27:25And they arrested them.
27:27So, it's, a lot of people are asking, like, questioning if the parents were aware of what was happening with
27:34the children themselves.
27:35Like, I mean, I understand.
27:37We don't know what they are doing on social media or online, right?
27:40But it's more of, like, does this reflect, like, people needing to be more aware?
27:46Or, because I'm quite surprised Islamic State was the matter.
27:48Because I don't, we haven't seen it for the past decade, right?
27:52Like, it hasn't been that obvious for the past decade.
27:54So, I don't want to pinpoint the issue itself.
27:58But, like, what does this reflect as a whole in society and the family structure?
28:04I would just say, well, to be honest, this probably more often than not reflects this complex and rather difficult
28:16to navigate issue of radicalization.
28:19Yes.
28:20Because, based on what I heard from the cases involved, right?
28:27Like, whatever the police has put out there when it comes to the so-called plans to bomb the church
28:33and secondary school and all that stuff,
28:35it's not as straightforward as this.
28:36Definitely not.
28:37It's not as black and white as what the police has painted it to be.
28:40It's just foot down, radicalization, probably exposure to networks online via gaming, for example.
28:49Because I believe even the communications minister, the police, and also the prime ministers brought up, I think, the gaming
28:54platforms, Roblox and all that stuff, right?
28:56Roblox, yeah.
28:56Roblox was involved.
28:56So, this one, honestly, it's a multi-sectoral effort here because you're talking about platforms like online platform regulators actually
29:05monitoring this, not just parents.
29:07Because parents will be busy with their jobs.
29:09They also have their children to take care of.
29:10And there's also this very difficult-to-answer issue of to what extent should parents be supervising their kids online?
29:17Yeah, especially the social media ban right now, right?
29:18Yes, and the constraints, yeah.
29:20So, the parents can do all they can.
29:22But at the same time, there's also the risk, right, of online, the online world being that somehow children may
29:29come across certain websites that they may not be aware of and the parents may not be aware of.
29:34So, this one is not just a parent-child situation.
29:37It's also an online world sort of situation.
29:41Like, it implicates the platform regulators.
29:44It implicates, let's say, MCMC where it's concerned.
29:46And it also implicates other peers who may be an important support system for the child at hand.
29:53So, I guess it's not an easy answer.
29:56But it involves all parties, at least to address this issue of radicalisation among youth.
30:01Yeah, at the end of the day, it's actually the issue of radicalisation, right?
30:04But today, we're talking about the rights and the treatment of children in custody.
30:11Okay, I hope everyone understood the issue explained by Janelle today.
30:17It's very, it's not complicated, but maybe questionable.
30:24Very questionable.
30:25It's not maybe, it's very questionable.
30:28Okay.
30:29Alright, Janelle, thank you so much for today.
30:32I hope we can talk further on the issue and talk further on the topics that you've mentioned as well.
30:36I hope everybody gets a description of what's happening in Malaysia.
30:41And I hope we move forward with the amendments.
30:44Because it sounds very scary.
30:45Even for an adult, it sounds scary.
30:47I want more for children.
30:49So, thank you so much, Janelle.
30:51Thank you very much for having me.
30:51So, you guys, make sure you follow Sinar Daily on all social media platforms.
30:55And also visit our website, sinardaily.my.
30:58Thank you, guys. Bye.
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