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00:08This was a cold and calculated murder.
00:16There's always a breaking point in an investigation.
00:24The timeline of events didn't add up.
00:32It was crucial we supported our family contact.
00:50He says, there's a note on Facebook to say RIP, and that was it.
00:56Our hearts sank.
00:59There was a nine centimetre deep wound to the chest.
01:05The first punch was blown, but he thought he didn't have a knife, and he just had a fist.
01:11But in that fist, he had the knife.
01:14For a silly fight to end in the tragedy of dying through a knife attack is just so incredibly tragic.
01:25Obviously knife crime, and no-one wants to be a snitch.
01:36I first met Ash Sayani when I was informed that her 18-year-old son, Jamil Palmer, had been murdered.
01:45From that moment, I became her point of contact in the murder investigation.
01:51My name is Paul Webb.
01:53I was a police family liaison officer, often referred to as a flow attached to the Metropolitan Police.
02:01The family always, without exception from my experience, hold really important information about the victim that is always relevant when
02:12it comes to investigating who carried out the murder.
02:16But in order to get to that aspect, you need to gain the trust of the family, you need to
02:22build a relationship with them.
02:23It is very much a privilege to be in that role.
02:27You become almost sort of part of the family.
02:44It was late in the evening, I think around maybe six, seven o'clock, that I would learn that there
02:50had been a fatal stabbing of a young man in Crane Park.
02:56First to arrive on scene are two police officers.
02:58They provide life-saving treatment.
03:02The London Ambulance Service would arrive, followed by the London Air Ambulance, which would land nearby, and every effort was
03:10made to try and save his life.
03:15There were at least two stab wounds, one to the chest and one to the arm.
03:22They work on him, and they take him to the Royal London Hospital by the Air Ambulance, but sadly, he
03:29would die.
03:32At your earliest opportunity, you would allocate a family liaison officer.
03:36Hello, Noel. Has a young boy been stabbed in Crane Park?
03:40The family have lost their loved one in the most awful of circumstances.
03:44They are really, really vulnerable.
03:47The only sort of touch point that they've got is the police.
03:50OK, Noel, I'm on my way to the office.
03:53The role of the family liaison officer at this stage is so crucial.
03:58You are going into a family at one of their darkest times.
04:02It's important to have someone there to guide people through that, to find out information about the victim's background and
04:09where they might have been and who they're associated with.
04:11It's effectively giving the family a voice into the investigation, so it's about doing the best we can for the
04:18family.
04:24Crane Park is a sort of unkept park.
04:28We've got a few paths through it for walkers.
04:32First, officers on scene will put in place cordons, inner and outer cordons, and then within that cordon, it's basically
04:38locking it down and trying to understand what's in that area.
04:42Where the murder took place is a grassy area, which very quickly becomes quite bushy, so you can lose sight
04:50of people very quickly.
04:54The police were called, followed by the on-call murder team.
05:01They will be a crime scene manager.
05:03They carry out the urgent forensic scene preservation.
05:08It's called the Golden Hour Principles.
05:11A number of witnesses had seen the suspects run.
05:15But as the suspects run along the pathway and then turn left, they then go over a bridge,
05:20which runs across a stream.
05:23And an officer, a really diligent DC, has retraced their steps to the point where he looks down into the
05:30stream and he sees a glistening knife.
05:33Initially, they were going to call out the Marine Support Unit, who were going to take too long,
05:37so then the officer, I understand, took off his shoes and went in and got the knife.
05:46The victim was Jamil Palmer.
05:49Jamil was 18 when he was killed.
05:52He had everything to live for.
06:00On the day of the murder of Jamil, on the 6th, he was completing some exams.
06:07We'd gone to Portugal.
06:08He was meant to follow on a couple of days later.
06:14My name is Ash Sayani, and I am the mother to Jamil Palmer.
06:19I text him in the morning to wish him luck for his exam.
06:23And I didn't get a response.
06:26Like, something wasn't right.
06:27I knew something wasn't right that day.
06:29It's almost like a wash of fear.
06:33This young boy knocked on the door and said, you know, Jamil's been hurt in the park.
06:42I'm Zara Sayani, sister of Ash Sayani.
06:48This young boy with this little bit of paper with a number on there, it was the trauma hospital.
06:53We rang and rang.
06:55They finally said that we could get down to that hospital because he had been taken via an air ambulance
07:01from that park.
07:02I was driving, my mum in the passenger seat, just driving, driving, stuck in traffic, thinking we really need to
07:09get to this hospital.
07:09And then his friend, all of a sudden, in the back, he says, there's a note on Facebook to say,
07:18RIP Jamil.
07:18And that was it.
07:20Our hearts sank.
07:25Messages and messages and messages were coming up on his phone and he was checking and saying that, yeah, that's
07:31what everyone's saying now.
07:32It's RIP.
07:33We finally got there.
07:35They took us into this room and we saw him with this sheet up to his neck and just his
07:41face.
07:42And literally we couldn't believe that it was him.
07:48Tried to call Ash and just say, look, you know, it is him and I'm so sorry.
07:53I screamed so loud.
07:55The neighbour in Portugal had to come and find out what had happened.
07:59Everyone, you know, our own immediate family could not believe that we were going through something like this.
08:06Early the next day, we ended up getting to the airport and coming home.
08:12And I just remember my phone was pinging and pinging and I was looking on Facebook.
08:17And I just saw his photo and I saw a news thing, like the ticker tape at the bottom.
08:22And it said, boy, stabbed, loss of life.
08:27Oh, my God, it's all over the news.
08:29We had to prepare the house for people to give condolences.
08:34So in our community, obviously, you have to have white sheets on the floor so people can sit and, you
08:39know, pray together as a community.
08:41I think in my mind, I was thinking, this is not happening.
08:45If I put the white sheets out, I have to admit that he's not here anymore.
08:52We went to the family home on the 7th of May and remember it distinctly that the family were absolutely
09:01numb.
09:04You know, it's less than 24 hours since they've been informed that Jamil has been murdered.
09:10Noel had come over and he said to me, I'm really sorry, we wanted to give you our condolences.
09:18And I think that's when it really hit home that he's not here anymore.
09:24And this is going to be my life now.
09:28It's disbelief, trying to comprehend, hoping that the police have made a mistake in the identification
09:34and that Jamil will put his key in the door and come through.
09:37I never knew what a panic attack was until that day.
09:42I couldn't breathe, the room felt hot, my brain was just cloudy.
09:48It's bad enough to lose a loved one to an accident, let alone somebody else taking your loved one away
09:54from you.
09:56There was Ash and her husband John and their two girls who were very young at the time
10:03and Ash's sister Zahra, who was very supportive throughout and very courteous and dignified.
10:12And it was a really tight bond there.
10:15They thought the world of each other.
10:17The family liaison officers came in, introduced themselves and told us what their role was
10:23and how they would support us and what sort of the next steps are from that point.
10:29Noel explained everything and what was going to happen.
10:32They were looking for the person that had killed Jamil.
10:36And at that point, I was really happy because I felt someone now could answer my questions
10:42and tell me what was going on.
10:45They would be there for us for the whole process from start to finish.
10:51These people are going to be like our, I guess, family for the next however long it takes.
11:04Deploying a family liaison officer in a murder investigation like this,
11:08ultimately we're seeking to find out as much as we can about the victim
11:14and the victim's background, what we would call victimology.
11:19And that can often be very important to the murder investigation, sometimes pivotal.
11:27to why this person was murdered.
11:40She mentioned that she was expecting a shock to all of us because she was obviously quite young.
11:47I was very scared.
11:48So I was 20 myself and I didn't know what I wanted out of life, but I knew that I
11:54wanted him.
11:55He was such a cheerful boy.
11:58The bond between us was really strong because it was just him and I most of the time.
12:04Cheeky little boy.
12:05Cheeky, funny, always had a smile on his face.
12:09Such a lovely boy.
12:11Playing pranks was one of his things.
12:14And football, the love of football, he loved Arsenal, he'd always make me buy the latest kits or the latest
12:21trainers, and he was growing so fast.
12:24They did a lot of things together, you know, they loved having pictures done together, and, yeah, a really good
12:30relationship.
12:33John came into his life when he was 10.
12:36He's a great father, great dad, and a great influence on him.
12:40He's got great values and morals, and he did instill those things into Jamil.
12:46You know, John's 5'11", Jamil was 6'1", 6'2".
12:52They always say, like, the friendly giant, but he really was.
12:55He was tall.
12:56He was taller than John, and he was, like, everyone's protector.
13:00Everyone just loved Jamil.
13:02He was funny.
13:03He did silly things.
13:04He said silly things, but that was him.
13:15Speaking to witnesses, the vast majority that we encountered in Jamil's case were fellow young people of his kind of
13:25age group, around 18.
13:27And some of them we would term as significant witnesses.
13:31They told us, among other people, that there had been a previous, to use a police expression, altercation, but it
13:38was basically a fight between Jamil and another individual.
13:43And, effectively, Jamil's friends and the friends of the other individual were kind of rival groups, but they certainly weren't,
13:54from my experience, gangs.
13:55And they were very, very difficult to approach, because they don't like engaging with police, partly because it's a sort
14:07of a cultural thing, and partly because they're frightened of reprisals against themselves.
14:14Despite, at the time, and subsequently in numerous appeals, there was a lack of witnesses coming forward.
14:21It is our understanding there were a significant number of people who had come out to see this fight, but
14:28they never came forward.
14:30They were clearly talking about the murder amongst themselves and on social media, but when asked to provide accounts or
14:39support the investigation, they refused to do so.
14:43And that's so troubling.
14:53The meeting with Jamil's family at Fuller Mortuary was a viewing, what we call a family viewing.
15:04It seems very simple that the family just go along and see their loved one through a glass window, but
15:12it's a lot more than that.
15:15Meeting Paul at the mortuary, and him being so approachable and being really kind, and actually really caring, I felt
15:25completely at ease.
15:26He held my hand, and then he put his hand on my hand again, and I think he could probably
15:33feel me shaking.
15:34I went in to see Jamil first, who was on a bed with a sheet covering everything but his head,
15:41and the reason I do that is so that I can tell the family what to expect and prepare them
15:49as well as I can for what they're about to see.
15:52The first thing I said to Paul was, can I touch him, and he said, no, you can't touch him,
15:59you can't touch the body, because we need it for evidence.
16:05When they told me they were ready, I slowly opened the curtain so they could see him.
16:12And, um, I just remember Jamil lying there, and he just looked like he was sleeping.
16:25Ash was extremely upset and very tearful, but overwhelmingly gracious and courteous, as she always has been throughout.
16:37She's a very strong person.
16:39I had a whole mix of emotions.
16:43The first emotion was, I can't even touch my son, I can't give him a hug, I can't tell him
16:49that I'm here now.
16:50He can't hear me, he can't, he doesn't even know that I'm there.
16:55You just want to take him home.
16:57You just want to pick him up and scoop him up and say, Mum's here now.
17:01Um, you can't take him home with you, you know.
17:06You have to leave him there, and that's not his home.
17:11What I always do is provide my contact details and my phone number and assure them that my phone will
17:20be on for the next few nights,
17:22because it's unlikely that families in these circumstances are going to get any sleep.
17:29And if they have a burning question at three o'clock in the morning, they've got somebody to phone and
17:35ask.
17:36After we'd left the mortuary outside, he gave me a hug, and I gave him a hug back, because I
17:43think he knew in that moment that that's what I needed.
17:48I think that's quite a deep, a deep thing, to be able to share the loss of your own child.
17:55So, you've already built up a bond, and we'll always remember that.
18:11Within a couple of days of Jamil being killed, there would have been a special post-mortem carried out.
18:19Where a homicide has taken place, the pathologist needs to go a lot further.
18:26The objective is to secure all forensic opportunities, so that could be from hand swabs, DNA that may or may
18:33not have occurred,
18:34as well as understanding what was the cause of death.
18:38And then note each and every single injury that they may have sustained.
18:44There was a nine-centimetre-deep wound to the chest, which had penetrated the left ventricle of Jamil's heart.
18:54There were two other injuries, one to the arm and another to the chest area.
18:59The pathologist established that Jamil had died from specifically a stab wound to the heart.
19:06Once we find out the cause of death, I would then go straight to Jamil's family and tell them face
19:12-to-face.
19:14I went to Jamil's family home many times during the investigation.
19:20I mean, literally dozens of times.
19:22He's such a calm, lovely person.
19:26He was very patient.
19:27He had a warm smile.
19:29And it was basically whatever, listen, I'm here.
19:35The family liaison officers were there whenever they needed to tell us something or update us with any new information.
19:41It was always gratefully received that I was actually there giving them that information, even if it wasn't what they
19:50wanted to hear.
19:52Ash helped us greatly with convincing very important witnesses who were Jamil's friends to assist us with giving information about
20:01what happened.
20:02He let me know that some of Jamil's friends weren't really coming forward and giving any information.
20:10I found that quite hurtful because they've been to my house.
20:14They've eaten at my house.
20:15They've been around the table.
20:17And maybe they were worried that something might happen to them.
20:20But they weren't really being a good friend sometimes to Jamil.
20:25Any information that we had at that point, you know, different messages on social media, we gave all of that
20:34to the family liaison officers.
20:36They were quite amazed at how much we found out within a short space of time.
20:42One of Jamil's friends came in to give him condolences.
20:47And he was really quite sorry for Jamil passing.
20:50We asked him if he knew anything.
20:52And he was a bit, well, oh, you know, or here, you know, do you need anything towards the funeral
20:59or how can I help?
21:02So we said, right, the way you can help is telling us who did it.
21:06Because obviously knife crime, no one wants to be a snitch.
21:11Eventually he sent over, he'd text a photo of a boy.
21:19And we believe it to be, you know, someone related to Jamil's murder that was heavily involved.
21:26And we sent that picture on to our family liaison officers.
21:30And we thought, you know, we're getting a bit closer.
21:33And now it's up to them to, like, go and get him and find out more.
21:51So the date of Jamil's funeral was the 13th of June, 2014.
21:58Our mosque has, like, three floors.
22:00All three floors were packed.
22:02It's never been like that unless it's really special occasions.
22:05Over 800 people came to his funeral.
22:08And I thought, gosh, he was loved.
22:10These people have come to say goodbye to my boy.
22:14They've come to pay their respects to Jamil.
22:18In our community, we have an open casket where family, relatives, the community can come pay their last respects to
22:27that deceased person.
22:28Because it had been so long, it had to be, unfortunately, a closed casket, which obviously is a very distressing
22:34thrush.
22:36Everyone's singing almost like a chant and, you know, giving, like, making sure that the soul goes to heaven.
22:44Even, as you're saying the prayers, the family and friends will walk around the coffin, but they'd be walking around
22:53a lid.
22:55He never had a chance to even grow up and be a man, you know.
23:01He was just 18.
23:04How is she going to cope?
23:06How is she going to get through this?
23:07How will her life be?
23:10You have to eat and be together as, like, a big family.
23:14So I invited everyone to a restaurant in Hounslow.
23:17I thought, I'll go in after everyone sat down.
23:20And then I saw two boys.
23:21They were arguing.
23:24And they were literally punching each other outside the restaurant.
23:30And he says, oh, do you know, I'm going to get you.
23:33I'm going to shank you up.
23:34And I just remember just standing in the middle of them.
23:37And I put one like this and I put the other one.
23:40I said, you're not doing that today.
23:42My son has died from a bloody knife.
23:44And they said, oh, I'm so sorry.
23:46I'm so sorry.
23:48And then I said, he says, oh, what's your son's name?
23:51I said, oh, Jamil.
23:52Oh, I knew Jamil.
23:53I know someone that knows him.
23:55I'm really sorry, the funeral's today.
23:56I heard what happened.
23:58And I'm thinking, this couldn't have been, you know, you don't, you can't make it up.
24:03They both went home to their mums.
24:05And maybe something in them resonated.
24:09Those two boys might have gone home that day and thought, gosh, I walked away with my life today.
24:27We were still building the case.
24:30We were trying to engage witnesses and trying to find out what was going on.
24:35It was not possible to find out everything we needed to progress.
24:41There were snippets of information floating around.
24:45It was coming through at this point about Jamil having had a previous dispute six months earlier.
24:54On the 25th of February, there was a dispute between Jamil Palmer and an individual called
25:02Mohammed Barry, whose street name was Crooks.
25:05And that became quite heated to the point that punches were thrown.
25:12And at some point, Jamil has removed his belt and used that to strike Mohammed Barry.
25:19He came home and there was a mark on his head.
25:22And I said, oh, what's happened?
25:24And he says, oh, this guy was trying it.
25:26And I said, oh, is everything all right?
25:28Yeah, it's fine.
25:29It's fine.
25:29I'll sort it.
25:30Like it's, oh, it happened.
25:31And now it's just finished.
25:33It's over now.
25:33It wasn't until later on that I found out that it wasn't over.
25:39Jamil won that fight and they were arrested for basically fighting in a public place.
25:45Both Mohammed Barry and Jamil Palmer were then sent to the Feltham Youth Court, where the
25:51key date was going to be the 6th of May.
25:54And when they came out of court, they continued a sort of verbal altercation as they were crossing
26:00the road.
26:01It's slightly off of CCTV camera, so we don't see what's happening.
26:06But Jamil Palmer punched Mohammed Barry and got the better of him.
26:10It would appear that Mohammed Barry is dazed or he's been knocked out.
26:13And Jamil Palmer was quite animated and said, where's the effect of one-on-one?
26:21There is a male who has filmed this and it was then circulated, I understand, on social media.
26:28But we never got access to that, unfortunately.
26:33It was a member of the public who was in their car that they would actually see the fight.
26:39She didn't really think much of it until she saw the news later that Jamil had been stabbed
26:46to death in Crane Park.
26:49And she then contacted police to say that she'd witnessed something that she thought might
26:55be relevant because of where she lived.
26:59She was very concerned that she would suffer reprisals if she got involved in becoming a witness.
27:05I contacted her and asked her if I could come and meet her and she was quite reluctant, but had
27:14bravely,
27:15I think, made the move to report what she'd seen first off.
27:20And I managed to convince her to meet me at a cafe.
27:27That, again, was a case of building trust and reassurance.
27:32I sat and talked to her for some time and she agreed to give a statement.
27:36Her evidence was really significant because what she had witnessed, of course,
27:42was that prelim to the fatal fight that was carried out in Crane Park where Jamil died.
27:48Mohamed Bari was a 17-year-old man at the time.
27:52I think he had one previous for an offensive weapon.
27:55I hadn't heard of Mohamed Bari's name before.
27:59The first time I heard it when Paul told us that he was the one involved in Jamil's murder.
28:07And also, Paul confirmed to us that, yes, it was the person in the photo,
28:13which ended up being Mohamed Bari.
28:17You've got two young men who've had a long-running dispute that has quite clearly had fuel poured on it
28:27when they've had this fight after going to the youth court.
28:32This then caused a flurry of phone calls to be made.
28:36Within 20 minutes or so, we would see Mohamed Bari come together with his group.
28:41There was some relevant CCTV which gave us footage of the association between the four suspects and Bari
28:51before and after the murder.
28:54We see the group meeting up.
28:56They call into a shop where we see them on CCTV.
29:00The group of five, which included Mohamed Bari, go in and they all purchase drinks.
29:04This gives absolutely really good imagery of their clothing.
29:10One was wearing a beanie hat, one was wearing a baseball cap and there's a distinctive skull on another's top.
29:16And that would be their markers that we could then work backwards on bus and local authorities, CCTV, both before
29:25and then after the murder.
29:28So where we might have had a blurry image or a lower quality, that CCTV officer becomes an expert, effectively,
29:37to say that they will have viewed the CCTV for hundreds and hundreds of hours, if you think, playing it
29:44backwards and forwards.
29:45And so they will know intimately, like creases on shoes or little peculiar signatures on an individual, maybe even how
29:54they walk.
29:55Then afterwards, they would then make their way to Crane Park, where the murder took place.
30:02We've also got the phone evidence of one of the group with Mohamed Bari putting a phone call into Jameel
30:09Palmer's friend.
30:10It's fair to say that this is saying that Mohamed Bari wants to have a rematch, for want of a
30:17better word.
30:18So it's a whole jigsaw of evidence.
30:21From a number of witnesses, it was unanimously agreed that there would be no weapons used.
30:27There was DNA forensic evidence found on the knife that was dumped in the stream.
30:33But the DNA matched Mohamed Bari's DNA.
30:37There were traces of Jameel's blood on the knife as well, and therefore was the murder weapon.
30:46We've also got the bottle that was recovered at the scene, and that had a mixed DNA profile, which was
30:53suggestive of Jameel Palmer and Mohamed Bari being on that bottle.
30:58So both the victim and the suspect on the same bottle.
31:07The family liaison officers were really kind and helpful.
31:12Paul was very calming.
31:14He'd come to our house.
31:15He'd chat to us, you know, if we needed, you know, anything.
31:19She was very dignified throughout all my dealings with her.
31:26But at the same time, she wasn't frightened to ask questions and some very searching questions, which, you know, I
31:34did my best to answer.
31:37There's times that I just wanted to scream, and there's times that I just didn't want to get out of
31:41bed.
31:42But I had to get out of bed, and I had to continue on until justice was done.
31:53We had enough evidence, probably a couple of weeks into the inquiry, to arrest the suspects.
32:01The main suspect was Mohamed Bari.
32:05When Paul told me, I was, I was like, like, almost relief.
32:10And then he says, but there's something else, Ash.
32:13He's done a runner.
32:14And I said, well, you know, we have to find him.
32:20We get him circulated on the police national computer, pushed out to officers to try and locate him.
32:24He wasn't at his mother's house and had clearly gone away somewhere to avoid being arrested.
32:31The other suspects, we were seeking to arrest them as soon as possible, but it wasn't very easy and straightforward
32:40to do so.
32:41So two of them were in foster care, but didn't always live at the foster carer's house.
32:47So they were, they were a little bit difficult to, to locate.
32:50It was all for the police to, to make the running.
32:54And we did that through developing intelligence, getting officers out, searching addresses, going to their local haunts.
33:03We would make arrests on the 13th, 14th and 16th.
33:07So we, in those days, we would arrest four of the individuals.
33:12Mohamed Barre, who was on the run for about six weeks.
33:17Ultimately, we would release the image of Mohamed Barre with a serious crime reward as a means to encourage the
33:26public to identify him and offer him up and bring him out of hiding.
33:30And ultimately, that, combined with the pressure and the searching that we were doing on people around Mohamed Barre, he
33:38presented himself at a police station.
33:41And he was displeased that we had circulated his image.
33:45He was a bit affronted. He was unhappy about that.
33:48I told Ash that the suspects had been arrested.
33:53It was like, gosh, it was, you feel, but you're still not there yet. You still haven't got to the
34:02end.
34:03And I was happy Paul was the one to tell me, because I knew I didn't have to be my
34:09happy self, because Paul knew me.
34:11Paul would have said, oh, just, here, have a hug. Do you want to cry?
34:16And I probably did, on many occasions, on Paul's shoulder.
34:29I actually interviewed all the suspects.
34:32They gave no common interviews, apart from one who gave quite a detailed account about what had happened.
34:40He said he was there, and he was there before and after, and this is what happened.
34:45I later interviewed Mohamed Barre, I asked him about his involvement in this incident, the previous incident, what that was
34:55all about.
34:55He made no comment.
34:57And there comes a point where we go to the Crown Prosecution Service.
35:00Building the case would have been putting together all the witness evidence and intelligence and CCTV and building a forensic
35:15case.
35:16Most importantly, what does normal behaviour look like?
35:18For example, if they had, every day or once a week, always gone to Crane Park and been in that
35:24area, that would be less telling than they all happened to come together on this day.
35:31During the arrest phase on two of the defendants, there was a covert recording.
35:38And what was quite clear from that, they were discussing their evidence and, you know, words to effect of, don't
35:46mention that there was a knife.
35:48It's about bringing it all together and strengthening all of your evidence to make it as strong as possible.
35:54So there was five suspects charged, responsible for Jamil's murder.
36:12When it comes to a trial, that can be really quite harrowing for a family.
36:17And if they were left to their own sort of company, that would be, you know, even more traumatic for
36:24them.
36:24Paul, at the beginning of the trial, was very informative.
36:27He sat, right, OK, today, I think this is what's going to happen.
36:31They're going to, you know, maybe discuss this or he'll tell us who was on the stand.
36:36So everything wasn't a shock.
36:40He sat next to us the whole time.
36:43The first day was hugely stressful and traumatic for Ash and her family.
36:50What made even more difficult for them was there was an application asking for the defendants to be allowed to
36:59sit outside the dock because of their age and sensitivities with their families.
37:05And the judge allowed this.
37:07I was angry at that point because I thought, Jamil can't sit next to his mum, but there you are,
37:14you can sit next to yours.
37:16Oh, heartbreaking to see that this guy's going in there and thinking that he's going to get off lightly.
37:32The incident itself, we believe, was probably attended by dozens of individuals who wanted to watch the fight.
37:43But then, when it went so tragically, the way it did, the vast majority of them were very reluctant to
37:50become witnesses.
37:51The young woman who witnessed Jamil and Mohammed Bahre having this altercation outside the court at Felton Magistrate, she gave
38:04evidence and I was supporting her as well.
38:08She was very, very nervous and frightened.
38:11She had screams because she didn't want to be able to see the defendants and the defendants to be able
38:18to see her.
38:18She gave evidence really, really well.
38:20She was amazing, really brave to do what she did, giving evidence at the Old Bailey.
38:26This young woman, when she got to witness service, was in floods of tears, tears of relief, I think.
38:33And her friend was there who had come to court with her just to support her and she was crying
38:38as well.
38:39And Ash went into the room and embraced them both and thanked her for giving evidence and cuddled her for
38:49some time.
38:50And I was incredibly moved by that.
38:54I thought, what an amazing woman to have that humility to support someone in those circumstances.
39:01When she herself has lost her beloved son, I thought that was just incredible.
39:08Bahre got called to the stand and he refused.
39:12He did not want to take the stand and wasn't made to.
39:15And I thought, you coward.
39:18I thought, you can't even say what you've done.
39:23You can't even face the family and say the reason why a life meant nothing to you.
39:31When the jury went to deliberate, that for me is a hugely stressful time and obviously a very stressful time
39:40for Ash and her family.
39:42I was confident that the team had done everything they possibly could.
39:46But ultimately, it's on how did the jury interpret this information.
39:52It was very painful to sit thinking to myself, he better not, you know, wriggle his way out of this
40:00one.
40:01Mohammed Barry had a long-running dispute with Jamil Palmer.
40:06There was the initial fight which resulted in both of them being charged, which would then put them to court
40:13on the 6th of May.
40:15We know that after court that there was a one-to-one fight with Jamil where Mohammed Barry had been
40:24knocked out and the fact that it had probably been videoed is common knowledge.
40:29I learned that there was a Snapchat and I had to ask Paul, even though I asked Paul, I said,
40:34what's Snapchat?
40:35And he said, oh, it's like a social media where someone can take a video and then things can get
40:42deleted quite quickly.
40:43It's that fight that is effectively fuel on the fire in this relationship.
40:49I think Mohammed Barry was determined to get his revenge.
40:54And he summoned his group and he went to have a, what Jamil Palmer thought was a rematch.
41:02And because Jamil was so much bigger, I think he thought, well, this is an easy walkover.
41:09So he agreed to it.
41:11And it's this group have then converged together with Mohammed Barry and they then travel towards Crane Park.
41:18And he was either carrying or he acquired that knife on that journey.
41:24Jamil Palmer says to a friend that he's actually going to go for a rematch.
41:28He goes on to Crane Park.
41:31No one, apart from the suspect, would have anticipated what was going to happen.
41:37And that's when the first punch was blown.
41:41But Jamil thought he didn't have a knife and he just had a fist.
41:46But in that fist, he had the knife.
41:49Barry has opened that knife and he's then plunged it into his chest, straight into his heart.
41:58For a silly fight to end in the tragedy of Jamil dying through a knife attack is just so incredibly
42:06tragic and so unnecessary and happens far too often.
42:12So when the jury came back, the verdict for Mohammed Barry was guilty.
42:18It was my birthday and I thought, oh, this one's definitely all worked out.
42:23Jamil's definitely sending me a happy birthday.
42:26It was the best feeling because what he'd done was absolutely, you know, disgusting in any means.
42:34It was the best result in an awful circumstance.
42:38The family were very disappointed and upset about the acquittal of four of the defendants.
42:45But at least the jury had recognised that Barry was guilty.
42:52Eventually, you will get out and you will have some sort of life.
42:58But, you know, Jam will never have that.
43:01We were just hopeful that he got a good amount of time in there for the crime that he's committed.
43:11Mohammed Barry received life imprisonment and he will serve a minimum of 17 years in prison.
43:17That was the end of the trial.
43:20And Paul and I and John all went to the pub.
43:24We had a drink and we just had to reflect on that six weeks.
43:28And we said we're going to keep in touch.
43:33And we have done ever since because we truly bonded.
43:45It's so good to see you, Ash.
43:47How's the family? Are they good?
43:49Yeah, yeah, they're great, thanks.
43:50All growing up.
43:51I think it would have been really difficult if we didn't have a flow like Paul.
43:57So that's Jamil Madden, two swords.
43:59With the incredible Hulk.
44:01Yeah, and we said, look scared.
44:02But John's like, look scared.
44:03And he's like laughing.
44:04I said, no, that's not scary.
44:05He is laughing, isn't he?
44:07He is laughing.
44:07He's seen me go through some terrible ups and downs during this whole process.
44:12From the very vulnerable stage of, you know, seeing my son lying on the slab and moving along to seeing
44:20me today where I'm getting through it.
44:24Then we had that blue blowing up.
44:25Looks like he's got a really big hand.
44:26It does.
44:30That's my photo skills.
44:33Family liaison officers are encouraged to write an exit strategy to explain to the family that after the trial and
44:42any other proceedings are finished, the contact between the family liaison officer and the family should end.
44:51But I've never felt comfortable using it in those terms.
44:56I've simply said, look, if you ever need to contact me in the future, you're very welcome to any time.
45:03It's nice that we're still here today.
45:05Yes.
45:06You know.
45:07I've still got the mug you bought me with the no exit strategy on the mug.
45:11Oh my God, you still have it.
45:12And on the front it says, Paul Webb, the best policeman in the world.
45:17Oh, that's right.
45:18I remember.
45:19It's faded a bit though from the dishwasher.
45:21Oh, yeah, I do remember it.
45:23And I still stand by that.
45:24Ash is one of those families that has become a good friend, will remain close, I'm sure, for years to
45:34come.
45:35He's, you know, part of the family now.
45:37You know, you can't spend that much time with somebody and not create a bond.
45:42But it's still there, actually.
45:43Is it?
45:43Yeah, there's two of them, this one and another.
45:46It's really nice, though.
45:47Yeah.
45:47I want Jamil to be remembered as he was.
45:49He was funny, he was sometimes silly, sometimes a little bit goofy, but so caring and loving.
45:58And that's, that's how I want people to remember him, that he's gone, but he's not forgotten.
46:05I want him.
46:33He was funny, there's two of them.
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