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00:02Larry Goodman is somebody who is both everywhere around us, yet somehow invisible.
00:09ABP Meats is a food processing plant that plays a big part in the food supply chain,
00:15but workers fear not enough is being done to keep them safe.
00:19In relation to COVID-19 and meat plants, Irish food supply chains have continued
00:24to operate effectively to ensure security of supply of safe, healthy Irish food.
00:29The screening of workers here at the ABP plant in Bandon last week
00:33detected 66 positive COVID-19 cases.
00:37I think the pandemic was a moment where the tide very much retreats
00:41and you see what are the backbones of the Irish economy.
00:45And we see that Larry Goodman is very much in charge of two central backbones.
00:50One is the beef industry and the other is healthcare.
00:53Larry Goodman is now the biggest private hospital owner in the state.
00:58The plan is to use private hospitals as part of the public system as a partnership on a temporary basis
01:04to provide essential services.
01:07We could see in that moment how strong Larry Goodman had become
01:10and how far he had come from the brink of collapse.
01:24Iraq has warned it will turn Kuwait into a graveyard if any country dares challenge the takeover by force.
01:33When the Iraqis essentially stopped paying, then Larry Goodman was caught with his pants down.
01:41And it looked like now Goodman was going to go bust.
01:45Suddenly we have one of the country's biggest businesses,
01:49hot ring on the brink of collapse.
01:53I thought he would go to the wall.
01:55I thought the numbers are too big to manage.
02:00From the state's point of view, he was operating a lot of meat plants,
02:04a lot of employment, a lot of farmers were depending on him.
02:08The beef industry is of crucial importance to Ireland.
02:11It's worth well over a billion pounds a year.
02:14APB, this business that Larry Goodman had built from nothing,
02:17is now running out of cash and something has to be done.
02:21Goodman owes 460 million pounds to bankers throughout the world.
02:24There was no comment from Mr Goodman on how he proposed us to get out of his current difficulties.
02:32I was in Paddy O'Shea's pub in West Kerry.
02:36There were no mobile phones in those days and somebody came in with a message
02:42to return to Dublin as soon as may be.
02:47Goodman is so important politically at this point.
02:50For the first time in its entire history, the Dáil is recalled during the summer.
02:57Deputies arrived at Dáil Éireann today with the serious implications of the Gulf crisis for Ireland
03:01in both economic and human terms becoming more obvious by the hour.
03:06I remember thinking it must be awful important.
03:10I still don't know of any precedent for the Dáil being reconvened during the August holiday.
03:16This must be awful important.
03:18Mr Goodman must be awful important.
03:21There was a sense of emergency.
03:23There was a sense of a tremor going through the beef industry.
03:28But let's be clear about it.
03:29The whole purpose of the recall of the Dáil, with Hohi as Taoiseach, was to save Larry Goodman.
03:36There are real problems in dealing with it in this haste,
03:39particularly under the pressure of one particular case.
03:43We were under no illusion but that the purpose of this, in the minds of the Fianna Fáil government,
03:49was to bail out Goodman.
03:52It was quickly, speedily, hastily, unprecedentedly introduced for the purpose of preventing Goodman going under.
04:06You have legislation going through at night.
04:09Two hours later you have a judge pointing an examiner to the business.
04:14You know, so late at night that it has to be done in his home on Leeson Street.
04:19You see the state bending backwards to save the business.
04:24Goodman bankers last week agreed to examiner Peter Fitzpatrick's rescue plan.
04:28This proposes that all the beef plants be kept open.
04:32The 33 banks, who are owed over £500 million, agreed to a seven-year restructuring programme.
04:43Any more, any more?
04:44Yep, there's two boxes in this.
04:48Can you get it?
04:50Yep.
04:50Okay.
04:52I joined the Sunday Business Post and I was the first agribusiness correspondent in the country
04:57because up until then they'd all been agricultural correspondents.
05:01Larry Goodman was in the news quite a lot and I would have been covering a lot of those stories.
05:08What really for me was, I suspect maybe the kind of last straw, was that the Dáil was recalled in
05:15summer
05:17to rush through legislation to ensure that the company just didn't collapse because it had so much debt.
05:24For me at that point, if the government was prepared to go to that extent, why were they protecting it?
05:32And I remember thinking, that's very interesting and beginning to ask more questions.
05:42Patrick McGuinness worked for Larry Goodman.
05:45He was an accountant.
05:46He rang me up out of the blue and I think I was on the phone for nearly three hours,
05:51which is an incredibly long time.
05:54He was basically talking about changing the weights.
05:57He knew and he told me how they did it.
06:00And the fact that the companies tended to have their own stamps that were made to look like the Department
06:06of Agriculture stamps.
06:08And I literally could not believe that someone from the inside of the business was talking about these activities.
06:20I knew that it would be very difficult to tell this kind of story in Ireland.
06:28Unfortunately, RTE, radio and television have found themselves inhibited by fears of legal action from investigating and pursuing this very
06:38legitimate matter of the black hole in Irish beef exports.
06:43Larry Goodman was at this very low point where everything is falling apart.
06:47The company has gone into examinership.
06:49And then World in Action, which was at the time sort of one of the leading investigative programs on British
06:55television, decides to do a big investigation into him.
06:58I had a contact in America, in the States.
07:02And the story that I was told by him was that there were two Irish lads touring mainly the southern
07:10states of America, Texas in particular, buying out distressed meat packing factories.
07:16And these two gentlemen worked for Larry Goodman.
07:19And had I ever heard of Larry Goodman?
07:21So I had a conversation with someone and said,
07:24Oh, well, if you really want to pursue this, somebody you should go and talk to is Susan O'Keefe.
07:31Susan had done a huge amount of work on this story.
07:34Work that if she had not done, I was going to have to pursue.
07:38Truth is, it was clearly her story.
07:45Everybody knew who they were.
07:46So if you got a phone call from World in Action, you were sitting up and paying attention.
07:50I decided this story should be told.
07:53And if it could be told, I was probably best placed to tell it.
07:56Because I had this new information.
08:13Patrick McGuinness is an accountant.
08:16He worked at many Goodman factories and at the Goodman head office during the 1980s.
08:20The philosophy of the company is basically private maximization.
08:24You can only make so much money by doing it right.
08:27But it's so easy to make much more by abusing the system.
08:31And all the factories did it.
08:34In Goodman's factories, they used their own bogus stamps to change the grades.
08:39It was very easy to change the grade.
08:41With a knife, you cut off the grade that's marked in the animal.
08:43And you can then put any other grade you like.
08:46And you'd have your own stamps at the factory.
08:50Was that supposed to be the way?
08:52No.
08:53All grading stamps were supposed to be tightly controlled by the Department of Agriculture.
08:59If one person's willing to step out, we have to find more.
09:02We have to find them.
09:03That's our duty.
09:07One literally did involve going down a dark lane in the middle of the night.
09:11I didn't know where I was going.
09:13I still don't know where I was going.
09:14It was dark.
09:16One country lane's as good as the next.
09:18And this man in his small house with his wife telling me about what it was like to work there.
09:26You're saying you re-boxed me no matter what shape it was in?
09:29No matter what shape it was in, it was all re-boxed.
09:32Did you re-box all of it?
09:34Yeah.
09:34All of it was re-boxed as slaughtered within the last week or two.
09:38Some of it was in pretty bad shape as well.
09:41It just didn't look too good.
09:43Some of it were turning green.
09:46The links between the Irish Prime Minister, Charles Hohy, and Europe's Mr Meat go back a long way.
09:53Goodman gave money to Hohy's Fianna Foyle party.
09:56For his part, Charles Hohy publicly promoted Goodman.
09:59It was the first time in Ireland, as far as I know, that the nexus of political power and corporate
10:07power were shown where they can collide and how that can be a huge influence in the way things are
10:14done.
10:17We had been trying since February to ask Mr Goodman if he would do an interview with us.
10:25It was part of the ethos of World in Action that, unlike print, in a visual medium, there was a
10:33need for your audience to actually see you put the questions directly and not shy away from it.
10:43We were able to discover through a source where Mr Goodman went to church.
10:49Mr Goodman, World in Action, can I ask you please?
10:53No, I'm not interested in talking to you.
10:55We had rehearsed it so that no matter what happened around me, I would still be able to stick to
11:00my questions, even if I didn't get an answer.
11:03So I had to learn them off and keep learning them off and keep saying them and keep saying them
11:06without any hesitation so that they just rolled off my tongue.
11:09Can I ask you why your managers obstructed a customs investigation in Waterford in 1986?
11:15Mr Goodman opted not to answer the questions. He kept walking towards the car and I kept asking the questions.
11:22Mr Goodman, can I please ask you why bogus stamps are routinely used in your plants?
11:27As he was going to close the door, I put my knee between the door and the car, trying to
11:35delay for another couple of seconds to get a question out.
11:38He closes the door and the car drives off.
11:41Can I please ask you why rotten meat was routinely re-boxed at your plants?
11:45Mr Goodman, can I please ask you?
11:49Why did all your employees get under the table payments?
11:53Mr Goodman?
11:56The programme was over in 28 minutes and 30 seconds and then there's this deathly silence. It was really strange.
12:02It never stopped again then for another five years or so.
12:05First, the latest chapter in the Goodman saga.
12:08The programme alleged that Goodman International had falsified claim forms for EC intervention payments.
12:14That it used bogus stamps to upgrade meat for intervention payment.
12:18That it re-boxed 13 year old meat as though it was new.
12:22That it made tax free cash payments to employees.
12:26I wasn't one bit surprised.
12:29It touched a chord that was too hot to handle in Irish society, in political society, in legal society.
12:39It was a bit like Rip Van Winkle. People woke up all of a sudden.
12:43It was pretty immediate. There was uproar.
12:47It had gone from the point of, oh, why is nobody making a call?
12:50To me going, oh my God, like what's, this is, it's all blown up.
12:55Are the government prepared to take their responsibilities in this matter seriously?
13:00I do not believe that the procedure to this house should be treated to by a television programme.
13:06The motus, the motus of which, the motus of which I have my greatest doubts.
13:12Unless you were highly cited today.
13:15Unless you were highly cited today.
13:19Have you ever heard of a person being called Marmite?
13:23Larry Goodman, at that time, was Marmite on steroids.
13:27His competitors hated him. The dairy industry hated him.
13:32But those who really supported him were 100% committed.
13:36And overnight, there was a view that the world in action was a kind of anti-Irish, anti-Irish farmers.
13:43There was people giving as much flack to the programme as they were giving to Larry.
13:48This programme was, in essence, a trial by television of Larry Goodman.
13:54I do not believe in kangaroo courts.
13:57And this travesty of a production was just that.
14:00I was appalled at the manner in which the programme was presented, in which the Taoiseach was represented and so
14:07on and so forth.
14:07I do not go along with that sort of thing. I think it is snide, supercilious, intended to be damaging
14:14and sneering.
14:16What capped it all was the way in which a decent man was hounded at his place of worship on
14:22a Sunday morning.
14:23And for the lady who made that programme to try and justify that later, I think it was just despicable.
14:31The next day, RT got in touch to say they wanted to do an interview with me that evening.
14:39And then about an hour before I was due to do the interview, I got a call from them saying,
14:43actually, terribly sorry, we can't do that.
14:46Larry Goodman has agreed to do an interview, but he'll only do it if you don't.
14:54Here beside me in studio is Larry Goodman, the chairman and chief executive of Goodman International, who will respond to
14:59some of the questions raised about the way he conducts his business.
15:03They say that you used bogus stamps to upgrade meat in order to get intervention payments.
15:09The use of bogus stamps and the various other things they said happen in a routine basis is just absolutely
15:14not true.
15:15You've never used bogus stamps?
15:16Absolutely not.
15:18Well, why was Nobby Quinn, who was then head of the Goodman meat business, convicted in the High Court only
15:22a few short years ago for using bogus stamps?
15:25But could I say, Mr. Quinn, whatever he may have done, didn't do it at my request or at my
15:29dictate.
15:30And that's still the situation in relation to anyone else.
15:33I'm simply pointing out that there was an incident which involved bogus stamps previously in the history of your company.
15:39There may have been, but not at my request or dictate.
15:43And Mr. Quinn will have to speak for himself, as I think he has done.
15:46As far as I'm concerned, I'm here to deal with the programme that was shown last night.
15:50I think it was an utter disgrace in relation to the allegations made about our company.
15:55It projected us as a criminal organisation.
15:58It certainly did a lot of harm for the meat industry in general and for our company in particular and
16:03certainly for Ireland.
16:04So I'd just like to put clearly on the record that our company has never ever, and I mean ever,
16:09dealt with unfit meat or rotten meat or green meat or any such thing.
16:13I think it's an absolute disgrace.
16:15His style was to be absolutely in your face, front up, attack, attack, attack, to shoot and shoot hard.
16:24One of the interviewees last night said your company, your group, felt invincible because it had friends in high places.
16:32Is that true?
16:33That you felt invincible?
16:34That's absolutely not true. We do not have friends in high places.
16:38Didn't Fianna Fáil, certainly that was the allegation, look after Goodman International?
16:43I don't believe they did.
16:45You don't believe they did anything to help?
16:47Very little.
16:50The whole basis of this attack is, by innuendo and association, to create the impression that Mr Goodman and his
16:56companies enjoyed some unique, ill-defined, protective relationship with the Fianna Fáil government of 1987-1989.
17:05Nothing could be further from the truth as the records clearly show.
17:10To take the most benign possible interpretation the government had, and its immediate predecessor, had behaved throughout this whole affair,
17:17as if what's good for Larry Goodman is good for Ireland.
17:20I think the tenor of that particular debate left no doubt in the minds of anybody paying attention.
17:28But there was Ishke Fuihalov.
17:31There was no doubt in anybody's mind, but the extraordinary things that had come to light.
17:37There has been a shadow over the beef processing industry in this country for some time, arising from a range
17:43of allegations.
17:45O'Malley's preoccupation was, how could you have a situation where one man got such control that he could dictate government
17:53policy?
17:55When he was leader of an opposition party, he had set down things on the record of Dáil Éireann that
18:01were now beginning to emerge to be true.
18:04And I think people were minded to say, yeah, there's more to this than meets the eye.
18:10The only course of action is to have a comprehensive judicial inquiry to get to the bottom of this frightening
18:17litany of charges.
18:18Des O'Malley went in and said that he was going to pull the plug on the coalition government between the
18:24Progressive Democrats and Fianna Fáil.
18:26So he gave an ultimatum to Charles Hoy that unless he had a tribunal of inquiry into the beef industry,
18:34the Progressive Democrats were going to walk away and Fianna Fáil were going to lose power.
18:45The announcement of the sworn public inquiry by a judge took almost everybody by surprise.
18:51Mr Goodman said last night he'd welcome an inquiry from any source because he had nothing to hide.
19:01The final details for the terms of reference of the tribunal were trashed out at this morning's government meeting, just
19:07a week after the allegations were made on the World in Action programme.
19:12The subject of the beef tribunal of inquiry has been described as an Irish Watergate and if the allegations are
19:18found to be true, the big issue then, as in Watergate, is who approved them, who knew and at what
19:24stage.
19:25The details relating to the organisation of the tribunal will be a matter for the presiding judge, Mr Justice Hamilton.
19:32It was in Dublin Castle in one of the big big rooms and it was like an Irish church, there
19:40was two sides and there was kind of someone sitting in every chair.
19:43And then in the evening time, RTE were there and they showed whoever was being cross-examined today, they were
19:54walking in with their lawyers and the whole lot and it became a kind of a bit like the red
19:59carpet in Hollywood.
20:01Hamilton was sitting up in the front of course, he was like the judge. It was like a court of
20:05inquiry. The prevailing impression you had was of legal eagles all over the place. The place was coming down with
20:12lawyers.
20:13Liam Hamilton basically gave everybody full legal representation. The place is just jammed with lawyers.
20:28Patrick McGuinness was billed as the key witness and his evidence has certainly given the media a lot to report
20:34on.
20:34After all, it was Mr McGuinness whose allegations of malpractice and fraud to Granada Television prompted this inquiry.
20:43McGuinness was certainly the star witness. Lawyers tried to undermine his credibility at every turn.
20:50He was accused of actually orchestrating the irregularities he was describing.
20:57In cross-examination, counsel for the Goodman companies tended to concentrate not on McGuinness's main evidence of weight falsification, use
21:05of bogus stamps and tax evasion, but on his credibility, his honesty and his motives.
21:10He was actually accused of doing this for his own purpose. You're just telling lies, aren't you? You're in this
21:16for yourself. It made no sense.
21:19I think it has to be said that, in substance, the major allegations have stood up and haven't been shaken.
21:26Most of Mr Goodman's first day at the beef inquiry, which centres on allegations of widespread malpractices in his firm,
21:33was taken up with describing how he built up that company.
21:37Then Larry himself came in and made his own case. That was a very significant day.
21:44On a number of occasions, Mr Goodman did not deny that breaches of regulations had taken place, in particular at
21:50his plants in Ballymun and Waterford.
21:52But he said it was a highly regulated business, with hundreds of workers dealing with thousands of tons of product,
21:58where sometimes a small increase in temperature amounted to a breach of the regulations.
22:03Speaking about Patrick McGuinness, Mr Goodman said an allegation that he had discussed upping weights of meat at some factories
22:10was totally untrue.
22:12Larry Goodman presented himself as not the sinner, but the one who was sinned against.
22:18He presented this whole image that it was just malcontents who had tried to bring him down.
22:24Mr Goodman said he regarded this allegation as a last minute attempt by Mr McGuinness to try and involve him
22:30in whatever evil plan he had in mind.
22:39Susan O'Keefe was the researcher on the World in Action programme, which ultimately led to the setting up of
22:44this inquiry.
22:45I guess I didn't really know what to expect when I was going into the tribunal.
22:50I was living in Manchester, I was working at World in Action, so I didn't really know how the flow
22:55had been going.
22:56I was very much coming back as some sort of odd species that had done something really weird, gone over
23:03there and made this programme about over here.
23:06And now I'm back here answering for my sins.
23:10The tribunal was less intimidating, I think, than I had thought it might be.
23:15Until, of course, then I was asked about my sources, and who were they.
23:21Counsel for the tribunal, Ian McGonagall, pressed her to reveal her sources, but she refused to do so.
23:27I said I couldn't answer the question, and I said I couldn't answer the question, and I said I couldn't
23:32answer the question.
23:34And if memory serves me correctly, Justice Liam Hamilton declared that I ought to go home and think about it.
23:43I came back, and I was asked again to reveal my sources, and I said no.
23:52Mr Justice Hamilton today ruled that Miss O'Keefe could not claim privilege over confidential notes she took from interviewees
23:58while she was making her programme.
24:00However, Miss O'Keefe's counsel, Niall Fennelly, said his client would not be complying with the order, and the matter
24:06is now in the hands of the DPP.
24:09It was completely clear to me I had no other option. And if there was a potential of going to
24:14jail, well, so be it. That's just the way it goes.
24:20The Beef Trimunal turned out to be sort of long periods of unbelievable tedium punctuated by moments of extraordinarily high
24:28political drama.
24:31Because as well as all of this very, very, very boring technical detail being asked over and over and over
24:37again,
24:38you have to have Charlie Hoy in The Witness Box, you have to have Albert Reynolds, you have to have
24:42Ray Burke, Ray McSharry, all these big political figures.
24:46Mr. Hoy spent his first day in The Witness Box denying a whole series of allegations made in the Dáil
24:52about his and his government's association with Larry Goodman.
24:57It was the very first time in Irish history that public had had any chance at all to see what
25:03went on behind the scenes.
25:06Oh, Larry Goodman can turn up at Charlie Hoy's house and have a private meeting with them.
25:12Oh, this continual lobbying of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Albert Reynolds, to reverse government policy.
25:19Oh, Larry Goodman can get Charlie Hoy to tell the IDA to remove things that he didn't like.
25:26It was the first time that we really saw this nexus of power, which was, you know, these connections between
25:31politicians and business people.
25:38The end of 30 rollercoaster years in public life was confirmed by Mr. Hoy to Fianna Fáil supporters last night.
25:45In the meantime, Hoy has been replaced, Albert Reynolds is the Taoiseach.
25:49I have no difficulty in working with our partners in government, but I will not allow anybody to think that
25:57Fianna Fáil needs another party to keep it on the right track.
26:03The export credit insurance scheme is the real political powder keg in the tribunal.
26:10In 1987, Albert Reynolds, as Minister for Industry and Commerce, reinstates export credit insurance for beef exports to Iraq.
26:19He then doubles it to 150 million and then decides to increase the scheme to 270 million pounds.
26:33Des O'Malley, who has made a lot of the most important allegations about the whole Iraq affair, he's now in
26:39government. He's now the Minister for Industry and Commerce.
26:42The PD leader, Des O'Malley stood over allegations he had made in opposition about political favouritism in the allocation of
26:49export credit insurance by the Fianna Fáil government.
26:52Today, the Taoiseach, in an extraordinary situation, finds himself accused of favouritism by his coalition partner in government, Des O'Malley.
27:00O'Malley said Reynolds' handling of export credit had been wrong, grossly unwise, reckless and foolish.
27:08It was an historic day in more ways than one today as Mr. Reynolds became the first Taoiseach in the
27:13history of the state to give evidence to a public inquiry.
27:17And then we had the showdown between Albert Reynolds, now Taoiseach, and Desmond O'Malley's lawyers.
27:25The opening question of senior counsel for O'Malley, the late Adrian Hardiman was, are you calling my client a liar?
27:34That was the first question. And it went downhill from there.
27:39Putting the question for the fifth time, Mr. Hardiman asked, are you accusing Mr. O'Malley of perjury?
27:44Mr. Reynolds replied, perjury is your word, dishonesty is mine.
27:49This was box office. He asked him 12 times, are you saying my client, Mr. O'Malley is a perjurer?
27:56Almost at the end of his cross-examination of Mr. Reynolds, he accused the Taoiseach, and I'll read it to
28:01get it right, of being gratuitous, malicious and false in the evidence he has given in the witness box.
28:07You're sitting there, you're watching, this is a government collapsing right in front of me.
28:11It's a very, very serious matter indeed, an allegation by the leader of the government of this country of a
28:18serious criminal offence.
28:20This precipitated such a breakdown in relationships between Reynolds and O'Malley that the government's viability was over.
28:30I deeply regret the decision by our partners to create instability and effectively undermine my government under a poorly disguised
28:38pretext of self-righteous moral indignation.
28:41I want to repudiate that utterly. I think it's a disgraceful allegation.
28:48Mr. Reynolds used the word dishonest again today, and today the PD said he should either withdraw it, sack Mr.
28:54O'Malley or call an election.
28:56Now, Larry Goodman would say, well, this was nothing to do with me, this was a personality clash between O'Malley
29:02and Reynolds.
29:05That's ostensibly true, but the meat of it was the public administration and the level of support that schemes that
29:13were put in place, like export credit insurance, like IDA promotion and for investment, were really, there was only one
29:22huge beneficiary, and that was Larry Goodman.
29:28There was an air of relief around Leinster House this morning as deputies arrived for the final hours of the
29:3426th Dáil.
29:35PD leader Desmond O'Malley told me he had no regrets whatever about pulling out of government.
29:44I, of course, was a bit apprehensive going in. I was accused of having it in for Goodman and that
29:49sort of thing, but I kind of expected that, and they were trying to get me to reveal my sources.
29:54So, the judge intervened and he says, no, no, he's okay. That's the central tenet of journalism, that you don't
30:02reveal your sources.
30:05I think I was two half days giving evidence. I don't know what I said. I buried that. I could
30:13not tell you one thing that I said.
30:16Why me? I'm just a small cow in a big wheel. And, like, they seem to be deliberately going out
30:25of the way and, like, they took great pride in hammering me, you know?
30:32I went in and I didn't know what to expect. And I got what I call a teddy bear cross
30:39-examination.
30:40How are you, Mr. Field? It's very nice for you here to help the tribunal. It wasn't a serious effort.
30:47It was a game of charades. There was never any disclosures made, like, in the subsequent tribunals about bring your
30:57bank accounts, which I'm doing this, bring that, where's that one again?
31:00It was a spectacle. It was the evening news and the talk of the town, what everyone said, what everyone
31:07didn't say, who's coming next week.
31:10So far, the Beef Tribunal has dealt mainly with allegations against the Goodman companies, and the evidence indicates a very
31:17substantial case to be answered.
31:20No, I don't believe we have anything to fear whatever. Even at this stage, with all the evidence which has
31:24come out?
31:25We don't have anything to fear. A lot of us here, say.
31:30But despite months and months of evidence, a lot of it which we seem to come out very badly out
31:34of.
31:34I don't agree with you at all. We haven't come out of it badly at all. I think the facts
31:38are there to prove quite to the contrary.
31:42Even all about the irregularities and Watford, Bally, Munn?
31:45Well, I think there's a tribunal set up to deal with those, and we're quite happy that at the end
31:50of the day, our record will stand, I believe, head and shoulders above the rest of the industry.
31:57After his election as Taoiseach, Mr Reynolds went to RSN to receive his seal of office from President Robinson.
32:04The new coalition cabinet of nine Fianna Fáil ministers and six from Labour is as follows.
32:10Taoiseach Albert Reynolds, Dick Spring, Taunascha and Minister for Foreign Affairs.
32:14You had Dick Spring, who raised such serious questions in the August debate of 1990, now Taunascha in a government
32:23with Albert Reynolds.
32:25Taoiseach told that the oil the government was a partnership one, and both parties were determined to work together to
32:31advance the welfare and prosperity of the nation.
32:33That government between Fianna Fáil and Labour had an unprecedented majority, and political commentators were already arranging a second term.
32:49In fact, it came asunder on this issue of the Goodman Tribunal report.
32:58Within hours of its delivery to the government, leaks resulted in a big row between the coalition parties after a
33:03government spokesman claimed that the Taoiseach Mr Reynolds had been vindicated.
33:07It was published in the most extraordinary of circumstances.
33:13A copy of the report was got to Albert Reynolds and his army of advisers.
33:19They locked out Dick Spring and their Labour Party colleagues in government, and set about writing a statement.
33:27My integrity has been vindicated. I've been cleared of the allegations made against me. Allegations of malpractice and wrongdoing. They
33:37have not been backed up by evidence.
33:40Albert came straight out of the blocks. Didn't allow Fergus Finlay or Dick Spring the copy of it?
33:46And came out and said he was vindicated.
33:49I think it's vitally important that the people be told that the report has indeed vindicated my decisions and upheld
33:56my integrity.
33:57Regarding wrongdoing, regarding reckless decision making, regarding political favouritism, that my decision making has been exonerated and vindicated.
34:09Well, vindicated. He's vindicated. Whatever that means. I look up the dictionary. John Hume will tell you what it means.
34:14Vindicated. I've been vindicated.
34:20It was completely unacceptable to me. He knows that that action damaged trust.
34:26That was the final straw for Spring. It came asunder very quickly after that. And the rest is history.
34:37John Bruton was elected Taoiseach with the support of Labour and the Democratic Left.
34:42The Parliamentary Labour Party will be supporting the nomination of Deputy John Bruton for Taoiseach here today.
34:48If Larry Goodman was doing an interview, it had nothing to do with me. That's the way he operates.
34:54It was a row between Charlie Hoy and Reynolds versus Desi O'Malley. It was a row between Dick Spring and
35:01Albert Reynolds.
35:02It was like, how can that be laid at my door? But the truth is, what they were calling each
35:07other liars about, or saying they were vindicated about, was actually Larry's business practices.
35:15Albert took an awful lot of flack on behalf of Larry Goodman. And at some point in time, you would
35:22ask the question, why?
35:26Mr Justice Hamilton has found that the export credit insurance scheme around which many of the political favouritism allegations hinge
35:33was substantially abused.
35:34The chairman acknowledges that Mr Reynolds' decision undoubtedly strengthened AIBP's position in the Iraqi market, and the failure to grant
35:42similar cover to other firms placed them at a disadvantage.
35:46However, he points out, this was the effect of Mr Reynolds' decision, and not the motive behind it.
35:53And what's this one coming up now?
35:55This is Justice Hamilton putting the finishing touches as to his beef report.
36:03There are indications tonight that the beef industry itself, and the Department of Agriculture which regulates it, have weathered the
36:09storm of the beef tribunal.
36:11The tribunal came out with a report which, if you looked hard enough and you knew what it all meant,
36:21was extremely damning in relation to the Goodman organisation and in relation to the Fianna Fáil government.
36:27But all of it was put in such an obscure way, it was so badly written, that it was extremely
36:36difficult to quite understand what it meant.
36:41Broadly speaking, the irregularities, as they were always described, seemed to be at the core of what had happened, and
36:48there was enough evidence to show that they had happened as we had described them.
36:54The tribunal has found that over the years, operations in Goodman companies were run in a corrupt fashion.
37:00The scale of irregularities, and the systematic and wholesale tax evasion involved, leave no room for doubt on this point.
37:08Under-counter cash payments were given tax-free to Goodman employees, amounting to about £3 million a year.
37:15The tribunal found that the system of tax evasion of paying people under the counter was systemic within the Goodman
37:24Group.
37:25The cash payments were disguised by making out false invoices to hauliers, some of them non-existent.
37:30The tribunal also accepted McGuinness's allegations that there was over a declaration of weights, use of bogus stamps and other
37:39malpractices.
37:41These became known as the bogus stamps because these are obviously a sheet of those stamps that the company had
37:47made itself.
37:48So it could stamp its own meat when it wanted.
37:54It's suggested that Larry Goodman will have some reason to be relatively pleased with the finding.
37:59The report states that while there were irregularities and malpractice in some AIBP plants,
38:04it has not been established that they were carried on in all meat plants or with the knowledge of Larry
38:09Goodman and the management of the group.
38:12I think, to be fair, the beef tribunal was in no way a condemnation of Larry Goodman or his responsibility
38:20for any practices in the business.
38:22In fact, the tribunal, by omission in a way, exonerated Larry Goodman.
38:28It did not identify or suggest that he was aware of any malpractice.
38:34The tribunal left us with this great mystery.
38:38On the one hand, detailed evidence that came up at the tribunal, including Larry Goodman's own evidence,
38:45was of an extraordinarily dynamic character who was obsessed with detail,
38:49who was on top of everything, who was personally involved in all the big decisions.
38:55So you've got this super active, controlling individual at the heart of the Goodman group.
39:02And on the other hand, we have from the tribunal's findings, a figure who seems to have been in the
39:09dark about an awful lot of what was going on in his own companies.
39:14Who made the policy? Who did the organizing? Who was responsible for that policy?
39:21It was very easy for all sides on the story to take up different views and opinions as to whether
39:27they had or had not been vindicated.
39:31One of the recurring themes of this infamous series of allegations was that Larry Goodman has special access to the
39:37then Taoiseach and other government ministers
39:40and that he benefited from political favouritism. This has been specifically rejected by the tribunal.
39:46What is laid bare here is the interaction of business and politics that was improper, reckless and unwise.
39:53The central question addressed by the tribunal was whether or not there was a corrupt relationship between a beef company
40:00and the government of the day.
40:02The tribunal clearly finds that this was not the case.
40:07The government of this country during 1987 to 1989 behaved entirely improperly at the behest of a few powerful individuals.
40:18I think most people were disappointed in the outcome of the tribunal in that it didn't give answers to the
40:24specific questions that was the motivation for the introduction of the tribunal.
40:28It ran out of steam. There were no hard findings. Good, bad or indifferent. So it was seen in the
40:37industry as a non-event.
40:42I get a phone call out of the blue. They've decided to arrest you and you are going to stand
40:49trial for not revealing your sources to the tribunal.
40:53O'Keefe to consult lawyers on warrant for her arrest. I must say that language always, even now, just does
41:02send a shiver. There's something about those words, the warrant for my arrest. It's just a word until it's you
41:08in the frame.
41:09Her offence was to decline to answer certain questions about her sources when she appeared before the tribunal.
41:16The journalist whose work led to the making of the program is now subject to arrest.
41:21One woman journalist who played a part in the revelation of abuses is to be prosecuted for contempt.
41:29What's your situation now, your legal situation?
41:31I have agreed to return to Ireland to be arrested at the end of September. At that point I will
41:38be charged.
41:47I arrived back in Ireland with my husband and my small baby and was duly arrested.
41:54It was a very big thing. And it was bigger because it was me. Just me. Now literally, me by
42:02myself.
42:06Nobody else had been prosecuted.
42:09When Miss O'Keefe arrived at the Dublin Circuit Criminal Court, she was greeted by an NUJ protest picket, calling
42:15for protection of journalist sources.
42:17It was a very strange experience sitting as the accused. It didn't feel the same as the tribunal. It felt
42:23different.
42:25Prosecuting counsel Maurice Gaffney in his opening address to the jury told them to put out of their mind any
42:30sympathy they might feel for Miss O'Keefe.
42:31If she was guilty, what happened to her was a matter for the judge.
42:35Our lawyers argued that the evidence that I had given at the tribunal could not be used against me in
42:44a court of law.
42:46That was the evidence that prevailed and, yeah, and I was acquitted.
42:52Now I want to introduce our next guest, who some time ago made a television programme.
42:58Little did she know, little did we know, that eventually it would lead to the beef tribunal.
43:04She was the only one in all of that situation which faced a charge, a criminal charge, contempt of court.
43:11She appeared in court today and in the circuit criminal court today with Justice Lynch.
43:16She was acquitted of all charges and she walked free.
43:20And therefore, she is the heroine of the moment, Susan O'Keefe. Susan O'Keefe.
43:26This would now be the last part of this story.
43:30The tribunal was over, the court case was over, and I can stop telling that story now and move on.
43:44Using his customary transport, Larry Goodman joined about 10,000 farmers and captains of the beef industry at a major
43:52beef exhibition in County Meath.
43:54I apologize to say to people who say that it's your activities or activities of your company that have cost
43:58the taxpayer all this money for this tribunal.
44:01I think that's a lot of rubbish, and I think that must be laid at the door of the politicians
44:04who decided on it.
44:06Larry Goodman struck me as a guy who saw the mistakes that he had made in the demise of Goodman
44:12International,
44:13and he probably would have seen it as bad luck rather than anything that he did.
44:17I think it's the combination of nearly going bankrupt and then being hauled over the coals very publicly.
44:24We do not carry on our business in a fraudulent manner.
44:28Mr. Goodman, world in action.
44:30I don't think coming out of mass in a Sunday is the place to answer allegations that were made.
44:34In fact, everything they've said is totally untrue.
44:37He had to face every single allegation.
44:40That was definitely a turning point.
44:44He was determined to put back the pieces of what he felt had been lost or taken away.
44:51So he raised the money, bought the business back in about 1995,
44:56and within the space of a couple of years, he was making profits of 30 million a year.
45:01It was an extraordinary period for him.
45:05He held his ground in very adverse circumstances, continued to run his plans successfully.
45:15He'd had to sell a number of property assets, like the Satanta Center, and he, one by one, bought them
45:22all back.
45:23He wanted to send a message that, you know, he might have been down, but he was getting back up.
45:30I think it was clear by that time that he had survived the extraordinary trauma of August 1990, that he
45:39was back on his feet.
45:48During the Rainbow Coalition, it emerged that Ireland was going to be fined about 100 million by the EU
45:55because of the way things had been handled in the beef industry during the period when a lot of stuff
45:59was under investigation from the Beef Tribunal.
46:02The fine is being imposed by the European Commission and Minister Yeats is desperately trying to have it reduced.
46:11When I became Minister for Agriculture, I was in a really precarious political position.
46:19I sat down with my people and I said, look, I need some phrase to send out a clear signal
46:25to people that I'm as appalled as anyone else.
46:29And I want to make it clear, as Minister for 15 months, knowing what I now know in relation to
46:35Mr Goodman, in relation to the very exasperating experience that I have had in dealing with files related to intervention
46:42and export refunds,
46:43that I would shed absolutely no tears whatsoever if Mr Goodman was to withdraw from the beef industry.
46:49So we came up with a set of words that I would not shed any tears if he was gone,
46:54which really was as much to say, I want you to get the hell out of the beef industry.
46:58To which he came back, fire and brimstone.
47:02Let me remind you that the alleged 100 million pound fine has nothing to do with our company. And that
47:07was the finding of the tribunal.
47:08But it was a blanket fine imposed on all the beef processors and surely you take your share of that
47:14blanket fine.
47:15I don't take any responsibility for it, whatever. So why should I be called into question in relation to it
47:20and for 100% of it?
47:21I'd hear back channels about how incensed he was about me. He went apoplectic. I don't think he saw it
47:28coming.
47:28Well, the minister said this afternoon that you should be more contrite to the Irish people rather than vigorously defending
47:35yourself.
47:37I'm in business since 1954. The minister's in business for 15, for less, for 15 months I believe.
47:43And I put my record against his to date. And after 42 years he can speak with authority in relation
47:48to me.
47:49But many people, despite what you say, are convinced that your record isn't one to be proud of.
47:55I don't know them. I do not know of them. And if they are convinced of that, it's as a
48:01result of outrageous outbursts by politicians, for whatever reason, be they commercial or political.
48:07I do think that whole episode brought about a change.
48:14Like I never heard tell of him in the media again.
48:18He became absolutely reclusive and shunned any opportunity to defend his name or his honour.
48:26He kind of moved to a deliberate policy of privacy and obscurity to this day.
48:35During the course of this cross-examination, Mr. Goodman said he had always tried to shun publicity, that he was
48:40a very private person.
48:41He said if he could do it all over again, he'd become a hermit.
48:48By the late 1990s, all of the beef tribunal stuff was behind Larry Goodman.
48:53He's really become a very kind of low profile person.
48:57And then the stuff that starts coming out happens accidentally.
49:02Mr. Phelan, the founder of Master Meats, claims that Larry Goodman conspired with Mr. Phelan's business partner and others to
49:09force him out of the beef processing industry by secretly controlling a 50% stake in Master Meats.
49:15Pascal Phelan lost control and ownership of the company that he had set up.
49:20And the ultimate buyer was a bit of a mystery for a while.
49:24Goodman denied that he was.
49:27They formally denied it to everybody.
49:31Ireland's largest operator, the Goodman Group, insist that they're not behind the purchase of the rival company.
49:37And he pulled it off with Master Meats for 11 years of denials.
49:42It was 2000, maybe 2001, before he said, it was me, I admit it.
49:52Larry Goodman's senior counsel read out in court that he was the man behind the whole thing.
49:59For the purpose of these proceedings, Mr. Goodman accepts that he owns and controls Master Meats since 1987.
50:07I sold to Tahir in mid-85 and he done a deal with Larry in 87.
50:15So a good man came in deliberately hidden.
50:18Phelan fell out with his Jordanian partner, Zachariah el-Tahir.
50:22There is no doubt that was the strategy. No doubt whatsoever.
50:27The High Court case, which began last May, came to a surprise end this afternoon.
50:32But no details were given about what was involved in the actions being halted.
50:37For me, that was my victory.
50:40It took a lot of time to get it.
50:43But I got it.
50:46Mr. Phelan said he was delighted and he said he still wasn't a friend of Mr. Goodman.
50:50I don't have any relationship with Mr. Goodman.
51:07By the early 2000s, Larry Goodman's not the focus of the Flood and later Mahan Tribunal, but he's dragged into
51:14this story.
51:17The revelations which really came out of the Mahan Tribunal were much more potentially damaging than anything that emerged directly
51:26in the Beef Tribunal itself.
51:29I have always, and my legal people, cooperated fully with this tribunal.
51:33And if they have allegations against me, well, they put them in the post on Monday morning and I'll deal
51:37with them on Tuesday.
51:39What the Mahan Tribunal did, which the Beef Tribunal didn't do, was to follow the money.
51:43What nobody knew when the Beef Tribunal was going on is that Larry Goodman was involved in this land deal
51:52directly with Liam Lawler.
51:55Liam Lawler has previously denied any involvement in Koolamber, according to the tribunal's opening statement.
52:02But he has since conceded that he raised money for the original purchase back in 1987.
52:08It emerged that there was this company called Advanced Proteins that Liam Lawler set up in the 1980s.
52:14One of the things that was very striking is that there were three very substantial payments from Goodman International into
52:21Advanced Proteins in the autumn of 1987 and the spring of 1988.
52:29He said Larry Goodman made the decision in a heartbeat to provide the original financing of £350,000 for the
52:37Koolamber purchase and that their agreement was based on trust and a handshake.
52:42Goodman had given a £600,000 loan to Liam Lawler at that time and £350,000 was repaid.
52:56Mr. Goodman said he felt duped.
52:58Mr. Goodman said he pursued the debt as a matter of principle, but he said it was insignificant compared to
53:04the financial difficulties his companies were going through.
53:08One of the simplest and most striking things that we learned was that effectively Liam Lawler was on a monthly
53:18retainer from Goodman International.
53:22Throughout this period he was getting £3,500 a month, almost twice his doll's salary.
53:30This guy ostensibly, as far as the public is concerned, is a full-time public representative.
53:35Yet he's being paid a lot more money by Goodman International than he's being paid by the public.
53:41As far as I'm concerned I have dealt with this matter in a very, very detailed and comprehensive way and
53:48at no time has there been any conflict of interest.
53:52What happened is because Goodman came back into play in relation to the Dublin Planning Inquiry,
54:00people were reluctant to put that together with what we'd learned from the Beef Tribunal.
54:05It was as if they were two completely different stories.
54:08And the pieces of this jigsaw very much remained in different corners of the room.
54:21He obviously began to diversify quite a lot into property and into all sorts of other things.
54:28And very much under the radar.
54:30And as far as I know that's what he did and what he does is be completely out of the
54:35public eye.
54:37The group has become enormous.
54:40It branched out from beef processing, meat processing into pet foods.
54:46One of the biggest pet food processors in Europe.
54:49Today ABP owns C&D Pet Foods, which used to be owned by Albert Reynolds.
54:56Well, I think the number one sector that he's become a major player in is healthcare.
55:03He would have known Jimmy Sheehan, one of the co-founders of the BlackRock Clinic.
55:08As Jimmy and his family expanded, you know, they opened up the Galway Clinic.
55:13They opened up the Hermitage. So now they've got three hospitals.
55:17Larry Goodman was a minority shareholder, but over time he started to take total control.
55:25You now go on the internet and you can find a web of companies.
55:31A lot of them originating in Liechtenstein is Larry Goodman's empire.
55:38It is incredible, the detail and the money that it costs to do that.
55:45It is hard to believe that one man can keep up with the hundreds of companies that he controls.
55:51And they all seem to trickle back to this foundation called the Robina Foundation in Liechtenstein.
56:05At one human level, you can admire the resilience to be able to come out of the very, very kind
56:13of deep pit of trouble that he was in.
56:17But at a public level, for the society and its values, there's no redemption in this, you know.
56:25I mean, two governments fell essentially over Larry Goodman.
56:34Two governments.
56:35We went through the most extraordinary anxiety and expense and difficulty to get some kind of truth.
56:43Did it make the slightest bit of difference in the end to Larry Goodman?
56:49Not really.
56:50How are you? How are you doing? Good to see you.
56:52Serious when you're around.
56:54It would be very important.
56:58I started the business when I left school and it's growing from very small beginnings to very major international organization
57:08at this point in time.
57:11I've lived my life. I've come through lots of things.
57:16I mean, we had mad cow disease. We had foot and mouth disease and all of those things.
57:21And the industry survived. We're survivors.
57:26If you take Beef Tribunal or examinership or classic meats or whatever, Larry Goodman won every round.
57:35That's what has made him the extraordinary success story that he is, for good or bad.
57:41If we're going to war, we're going with our own ammunition and we're not going to disclose what it is.
57:47My book looked at every single tribunal in the history of the state and I have to say this was
57:52the one that made me angry.
57:53It made me so angry because it was the one where the political reputations and the business reputations of the
58:01people at the heart of this remained intact.
58:06Who's going to take him on?
58:08Who will come in to take him on at the moment? There's no one in the meat industry and no
58:12one lightly at the moment.
58:13Where do you see Larry Goodman being at five years time?
58:18Substantially bigger in the beef and food industry. And if that's unacceptable here, we'll do it elsewhere.
58:25One of the toughest, hardest, I would even say most ruthless, determined people I've ever met, which is not a
58:32criticism.
58:34But Larry has to get his way. Larry has to win. That's the way he operates.
58:44I just want to ask you about the milk sector.
58:46Okay.
58:48Even though we haven't talked about seasonality and all the problems in the beef thing, maybe we just finish that
58:51off.
58:52Will I just throw that at you?
58:55Well, it depends on what you're going to clip out of it afterwards.
58:57Okay.
59:02For the sake of health, he took a walk one morning in the dark.
59:06I met a jelly turf man on the road as I did walk.
59:09A friendly conversation came between this man and me.
59:13And that's how I came acquainted with the turf man from our day.
59:20Oh, he chatted very freely as we waltzed along the road.
59:24He said, me ass is tired and I like to shed me load.
59:28I've had no refreshments since I left my home, you see.
59:31And I'm weary out the traveling, said the turf man from our day.
59:38Said I, old man, your cart is worn, your ass is very old.
59:42It must be 20 summers since the land of the mill was full.
59:46He opened a cart to tranter in September...
59:49He's an old man named to go.
59:49I thought I was very whining.
59:49He was just tired and minded.
59:49And this is a way you and I could take part by the changing mountain of my life.
59:50He ran.
59:50So, before the making of the forest, it was just a new place.
59:51He was just good.
59:51He went to the tree.
59:51He ran.
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