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Recent incidents have sparked debate on religious sensitivity in Malaysia. This episode brings together youth voices to discuss interfaith understanding, respectful dialogue and how young Malaysians can help build stronger bridges across faiths in a diverse society.
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00:07Hello, I'm Amirul Aiman and you're watching It's About Youth.
00:10Malaysia is a country built on diversity, different language, different culture and different religion living side by side.
00:18But from time to time, incidents involving religious sensitivities reminds us how fragile that harmony can be,
00:26especially when issues escalate online.
00:29And now people are calling for stronger interfaith engagement among youth.
00:34They say that understanding each other's belief is key to preventing misunderstanding.
00:40So tonight, we ask the question, how can youth build better bridges across faith and also deepen the understanding across
00:49faith?
00:50Joining me to discuss this tonight are Shangri Central Value and also Muhammad Abu Qadir Mubarak Ali.
00:56Thank you so much for joining us, you guys.
00:58Maybe, Shangri, let's begin with you first.
01:01Looking at what recent incidents might be telling us about youth awareness and understanding.
01:07When you look at this incidents involving religious insults in Malaysia, what do you think they reveal about how young
01:16people understand
01:17or sometimes misunderstand each other's religion today?
01:22Thank you so much for the question, Amirul.
01:24I think that one key thing is that youths, they have an illusion that they already know everything about certain
01:29religion.
01:30Just because you have malls around, you have temples around and you see the Thai Puzzle procession,
01:35does not really mean that you actually understand the other religions of your friends or your community, right?
01:41So I believe that youths actually have the surface level knowledge of a certain religion and then they start to
01:48jump into conclusions.
01:50So for example, you can see what I would eat based on my religion, but you don't really know what's
01:57the meaning of the Quran to someone who is a Muslim, right?
02:01You don't really understand the meaning of the sacredness behind why they do certain things.
02:06So we only see what is happening, but they don't really understand why they do certain things.
02:09And because of that, they do not get to relate with one another, to relate with their friends, etc.
02:14So I think one of the key things is that they think that they know everything about religion, but in
02:18fact they don't.
02:19And some of them do not want to have an open mind to learn about it.
02:22And I also think that youths, they are actually very hyper-connected digitally, but they are also very segregated by
02:30different ideologies.
02:32Because when we see what contents we consume, we consume the contents that are engaging, right?
02:39Because that's what the algorithm will feed you more and more.
02:42So along the way, you might be consuming the contents that are more biased towards your group of people compared
02:50to any other groups.
02:51So because those are the contents that you've been engaging with, because those are the provoking contents, right?
02:59So I also believe that these are one of the reasons that these issues of insults, etc. are coming upon,
03:05because you don't have the knowledge and the deep understanding of it, and you don't want to learn about it
03:09even more.
03:10And thirdly is the contents they are consuming.
03:13You work closely with youth networks across the country.
03:15Why do you think these issues involving religion can escalate so quickly online, especially among young people on social media?
03:24So in my opinion, I think that young people, we are actually still learning on emotional control.
03:29But we have to understand how social media works, right?
03:32They make money from ads, and in order to make money from ads, they want you to stay longer on
03:36the platform.
03:36And what makes you stay longer on the platform?
03:39When you're engaging with a certain post, which causes you anger or certain outrages.
03:46So this is where we all see the rise of all the keyboard warriors as well.
03:50So when someone talks in a very calm way, trying to clarify things, no one actually listens to them.
03:55But when someone posts something provocating towards another religion, they will be getting so many engagements, right?
04:03So I like this saying where, if you get something for free, then you are the product.
04:08So here, the social media is actually profiting from people's outrage.
04:13And it's very harsh towards youths who are actually learning to control their emotions.
04:19And there's also this thing called online disinhibition effect, where when you're in an anonymous situation,
04:26you are more likely to react in a way in which you wouldn't react to if you were face to
04:32face with them.
04:33So, for example, this screen is like a shield to you.
04:36So, you would strip them of their personality as a human being and you straight away attack them based on
04:44their race and religion.
04:46Although you would not naturally do that when you're face to face because you don't really get those consequences out
04:51of it, right?
04:52So I think that's another reason to that.
04:55And I also think that sometimes some youths or maybe older people as well, they react because,
05:02not because they want to clarify the matter, not because they want to solve the issue, but it gets a
05:07little bit more performative,
05:08where they are doing it to become defenders of their religion, which I think is wrong.
05:13We are supposed to look at how to solve the matter instead of trying to just defend something without no
05:20solution.
05:21And that's where we're talking about the social media platform, right?
05:25But let's talk about everyday interaction between young Malaysians themselves.
05:28Shangri, how much exposure do Malaysian youths actually have to people from different religions in their life,
05:37maybe from your experience as well?
05:38And how does that shape the way we respond to sensitive issues?
05:43Okay, so in my opinion, I think most of the things that you learn comes from joining youth organisations
05:50or activities out of your everyday lives, right?
05:53Even in your universities, in your schools, nobody's going to force you to work with
05:58or be friends with students from different religions.
06:01Nobody's going to force you to do that.
06:03But then when you go into youth organisations, for example,
06:06then you're forced to work with them in order to achieve a specific course.
06:09But only people who choose to do that or choose to join youth organisations will get to do that.
06:14But how many people do choose it?
06:16I do believe that many people in my classes are not that active in youth organisations as well,
06:20which I think that they could benefit from a lot.
06:23So when many people live in their own bubbles, right?
06:26And every interaction with people from different religions are very surface level.
06:31And I think that's very ineffective.
06:34You can only learn more about a religion when you're in depth, when you're actually close to them.
06:40And in order to get that, you really need to see beyond solving racial issues.
06:48For example, in youth organisations, you're working together to achieve one cause or to solve an issue, right?
06:55For example, you're going to help the cleanup of neighbourhood that was flooded before.
07:02So at that point of time, when you are together solving a struggle of the community,
07:07then you get together.
07:09And it is not solved in a way that you see,
07:15OK, I want to solve this racial issue.
07:16Therefore, I'm going to do a certain activity.
07:18No.
07:19But rather, I'm going to bring the community together.
07:21And in order to do that, I'm going to do something more than solving just racial issues.
07:25So when you solve community issues together,
07:27you, in a way, will solve racial issues together at the same time.
07:30OK. What about you, Abu?
07:32Well, we have a lot of youth organisations in the country as well as NGOs.
07:36They're actually doing a lot of good work out there, actually.
07:38I think there might be some isolated cases in the past, you know, that happened.
07:43But I think there's a lot of hopefulness and passion in our young people, actually.
07:47You go down there, you go to the programmes, you see, they're all, you know, they're really eager, actually.
07:51Especially the new generation, the Gen Z.
07:54They're really eager to learn from each other.
07:56They're really eager to understand better.
07:58I think sometimes, some things happen that's a blessing in these guys as well.
08:01So I think, you know, we are at the right trajectory.
08:04But of course, you know, the young people need to be guided by the seniors.
08:09They need to be guided people who have experience.
08:12And there are a lot of hopefulness in the country.
08:14And I think there are a lot of...
08:16I would encourage the young people out there, actually, to join programmes and activities
08:20offered by NGOs and the youth.
08:22It may be seen at the first, on the superficial level, as a bit dry, a bit boring.
08:28But once you're engaged, it's quite fun, actually.
08:31So there are a lot of fun out there, you know.
08:32So you go out there and have some fun, understand each other,
08:35and let's make the country a better place to live.
08:38I want to go to that point where you said young people need to be guided.
08:41Now, let's talk about education or youth programmes that you rightly mentioned before.
08:46They are often seen as important spaces for building that understanding.
08:50About what role do schools, universities and also NGOs and youth organisations play
08:55in helping young Malaysians learn about religious sensitivities or religious diversity in a respectful way?
09:01Well, we have an international school, we have the School of Gebangsaan,
09:07where it's actually a plethora opportunity for you to learn from each other.
09:11In the classes, in the curriculum, in the uniform body are based in the schools as well.
09:18Scouts, you know, the police, and even bomber, the firefighters as well.
09:22So I think that those organisations are where they start, students in schools,
09:27start to understand and learn from each other.
09:29It's a good point.
09:31As you grow, as you go through the journey of the school,
09:34there are NGOs, there are associations that, you know,
09:37they offer a lot of, you know, interesting, you know, interactions, you know,
09:40programs and whatnot that actually guide these young people,
09:45these young people to a path where, you know,
09:48it's an open understanding of each other, empathy among each other,
09:53which actually brings, open their mind to actually learn more from each other,
10:00regardless of injuries, regardless of religion.
10:02And I can see that, you know, in the last 10 to 15 years,
10:06you know, our young people in the country are very much open to learn from each other,
10:10compared with people.
10:11So I think as a country, we are progressing.
10:13The schools, the NGOs, and society are actually playing their role,
10:16but it can be better.
10:18And we have a lot of seniors that I think we would encourage to give back to the community,
10:23give back, offer themselves to actually, you know, guide the young people
10:28by, you know, having programs that are actually enjoyable, you know,
10:32rather than just a boring sitting in the class and, you know, that doesn't work anymore.
10:35You know, there are a lot of ways to do that, gamification and whatnot.
10:38I think we need to be a bit more creative, especially in utopianization and NGO as well,
10:42as well as schools as well.
10:44So, Shangri Abu said that we can be better in terms of education and all sorts of societies.
10:48Do you agree with that as well?
10:50Yeah, I do agree, especially in the point of creativity.
10:52I think we need to change a lot of things in, you know, solving racial issues.
10:57To be honest, let's be real, right?
10:58In schools, when we learn penerikan moral, et cetera,
11:01we're going to study to pass our exams too.
11:03And then, most of the time, we're just memorizing the information,
11:06which I think is very ineffective.
11:07But in fact, I think schools should set a good example.
11:11I think they already do in terms of having different celebrations, et cetera.
11:17But I think they could do more and more things that are, you know, of higher impact too,
11:22of deeper learning too.
11:23But I think the most important thing is to set proper examples.
11:27So, how do these schools and these universities treat the students from different races and different religions?
11:33Because that's how people are going to learn, right?
11:36So, in the future, for example, however, whatever situation that you have been in,
11:42however the faculty has treated you, that's how your friends will normalize the situation, right?
11:49So, when one day you become the dean of the faculty, et cetera,
11:53you're more likely to think that this is something that is normal to do that.
11:57So, therefore, what faculties, schools, universities should do is set proper examples,
12:03make sure that they treat every religion properly and equally.
12:06I think that by itself already clears off most of the issues.
12:10And for example, I think in addition, what boarding schools or universities also have an advantage is that having roommates.
12:17So, I think when you have roommates, it's my opinion that it's better to have roommates with students from different
12:24religions.
12:25Only then you can actually form a closer relationship with each other
12:28and you can understand even more about people from different religions.
12:32I think we did think to the question earlier as well on how it shapes the youths in the future,
12:39right?
12:39I think, for example, if you have a closer relationship with other students from different religions,
12:46that one insult on social media is not going to tarnish the entire image of the religion.
12:51Because you have a friend, you have other friends who have been nice to you, who have been kind to
12:56you,
12:56and you know that that's not a reflection of the religion.
12:58So, I think this is how we're going to form the closer relationships and better examples.
13:03Great. And if you're following the news, recently, Bangi, Member of Parliament, YB Sharazan Johan,
13:09also suggested that we come up with more interfaith programs in Parliament among youths.
13:16So, Shangri, from your perspective first, do you agree with that? Do you think we need this?
13:21And if so, what would make those kind of programs meaningful rather than it's just become a symbolic program?
13:28I think when it comes to interfaith programs, we have to really pay attention to how the programs are actually
13:36made.
13:36If it's going to be random dialogues or forums, I think it's pretty boring and no one is actually going
13:43to listen.
13:43And another thing is that who actually joins these programs?
13:46Do people who actually have a prejudicial view are the ones joining the program? I don't think so.
13:50Mostly the people who are actually understanding and open-minded to learning are the ones who are going to join
13:54the programs.
13:54So, for example, like when we do interfaith programs including having celebrations of certain pariahan, etc.
14:02It is important and we should do that. But I think we should also do things that are more impactful.
14:12So, I think for example, even if they did any sort of dialogues or discussions, I think it should be
14:17firstly more engaging.
14:18And secondly, it should be more, you know, you can actually address the elephant in the room.
14:25You should go more in-depth. Because when you have these interfaith programs, they're usually very basic level.
14:32Because they don't really want to touch into deeper issues because they think that it's sensitive.
14:35But I think that it's actually necessary to talk about these issues.
14:38Because when you never talk about it, then it's never going to be solved, right?
14:42Then maybe someone from a certain religion is going to have that deep prejudice constantly because no one was there
14:50to discuss about it with them.
14:51And I also think that, as I've mentioned before, we should do programs that are more action-based to solving
14:57a certain cause or working together to achieve something bigger.
15:03Because along the way, you will indirectly actually form a better community of more respectful people.
15:10What do you think about that?
15:11So, I think I've been to a few interfaith programs in the past as well. You know, we had the
15:15Buku Possa in Masjid Jamnit with a variety of people from different races. It was really interesting.
15:20The word interfaith program sounds a bit dry and a bit boring. I think a bit of branding is needed
15:24there as well.
15:25But it's really a good, the program itself depends on the organization. It's quite interesting as well.
15:31You have a safe space to argue and maybe not argue, just debate, healthy debates, you know, between the debates
15:37actually to understand each other better, you know, the rationale, why this religion is like that.
15:41So, it's more understanding. There are a lot of games as well, gamification, you know, between religions as well, different
15:48games, more related to culture actually, you know, to understand each culture as well.
15:52So, also different celebrate food. Food makes everyone happy, right? So, different foods as well. We live in a country
16:00where we eat everyone's food, Chinese, Indian as well.
16:03So, I think it's a branding problem. It can be fixed, but I think it's something that we should be
16:09looking at massively around the country.
16:11We are in a very sweet spot of a country where, you know, all religions are living together really harmoniously.
16:20One of the most harmonious countries in the world actually.
16:24So, young people go out there, go to other countries, look at how other countries are. When you return to
16:29Malaysia, you will love Malaysia. Tanah air ko.
16:32And, and, and, Shangari mentioned before that, you know, when you have interfaith programs but also they don't go that
16:37deep because it's too sensitive.
16:39I want to ask you that, Abu, that's the challenge here that, you know, we have to learn how to
16:44talk about these sensitive issues respectfully.
16:47So, how can young people learn about this and learn how to express disagreement or criticism without crossing that line
16:55of disrespecting towards another religion?
16:57I think it starts with having a good coach, a good, you know, a good coordinator for the program.
17:04There's, there are, of course, you know, ethics in how do we argue, how do we debate our points.
17:10I think we have to set the ground rules much, much earlier before a particular session.
17:15You know, these are the things you can do, you can say, these are the things you cannot say, that
17:19this is the red line for each.
17:20So, let's have a healthy discussion and having a good coordinator or rather a moderator for that discussion actually helps
17:27to weave the discussion so that everyone can see each other in their eyes, have a better, you know, perspective
17:34of each other and empathy as well.
17:36I think Dato' Sri Anwar Ibrahim has been doing, you know, working on dialogues for the last 20, 30 years,
17:42I think if we look at it.
17:43And dialogues is the key of understanding each other, regardless of race, regardless of organisation.
17:51I think it's something that we can learn from as well.
17:53Changri, what do you think?
17:54I think we have to learn to criticise the idea itself, not the identity of the person.
18:00And we have to really stop on overgeneralising, saying that, okay, an action of a certain person is going to
18:08reflect the religion of a, the entire religion, right?
18:11So, I think we have to just learn to disagree properly with using the proper words and being respectful about
18:19it instead of just attacking the religion or using ad hominem as well.
18:24And I also think that we have to understand that we must, we are going to clarify our boundaries and
18:32we're going to explain our boundaries as well or things that may have been offensive to us.
18:38We're not trying to attack another person. And I think that one of the activities that we did in one
18:46of my camps was that we represented different MPs with different backgrounds and different priorities.
18:53Then MPs from different races. And we have to debate on why a certain policy should be included.
19:03And in that way, we got to realise how it felt in order to be in the shoe of another
19:10MP who is supporting their race or their religion.
19:14And then you get to see before you criticise on how it's like being put in other people's shoes.
19:21So, I think sometimes we should have activities where you get to just, you know, debate from the other person's
19:28perspectives as well.
19:30So, yeah, I think most importantly we have to learn to actually criticise the idea itself and not the entire
19:36identity.
19:37Okay, we want to look ahead on what role should young Malaysians play in this, in protecting harmony in a
19:45multi-religious country like Malaysia.
19:46So, Shangri, what do you think Malaysians, young Malaysians, your message to young Malaysians, our role to play in terms
19:52of protecting this peace and prosperity in Malaysia?
19:54I think we have to understand that maybe people from the older generations or the past political methods have always
20:05been that they have always had the reliance on using the difference in our identities in order to be in
20:13power.
20:14So, I think that youths actually have the power in order to stand against people like this who use races
20:22to have us against each other instead of working together in order to reach an objective.
20:29And I think if we were all able to look past the races or at least just see each other
20:36as just human beings, I think it would be way easier to advocate for more inclusive policies as youths.
20:43And I think it's also really important to not get swayed by any provoking statements or from any of leaders
20:52or any influences and always check out the source first and take your pauses before you actually post something on
21:00social media, before you post it out of anger.
21:02And I think that what else we can do is that we should reject and if we are going to
21:11continue with a cancel culture, then cancel the people who are actually criticising or showing anger towards different religions in
21:19these platforms instead of cancelling the person who actually is trying to learn about another religion etc.
21:25And I think it's no longer about just tolerating people from different religions, but rather to, it's better to start
21:35learning more deeper about people from different religions.
21:38Great, Kap Abu, what responsibilities do you think young Malaysians carry in ensuring that diversity remains a strength in the
21:45country and not a source of conflict?
21:47So young people are passionate, young people have a problem of ordering their emotions, so I think that's actually quite
21:53a strength of the young people.
21:56They can come together and create a movement actually, a strong movement who says this is what can be done,
22:03this is the boundaries that we have, this is the respect that we have with each other, let's come together
22:07and build a stronger community
22:10and together create a campaign actually, whether it's informal or informal, come together because we have seen a lot of
22:17organic campaigns happening in the past.
22:19You know, we have Kita Jaga Kita, we have campaigns around the world, so young people actually, they need to
22:24realise that these are issues that can be, you know, can be worked together.
22:29You know, if we are passionate enough, we have stronger understanding and we are united, you know, so if we
22:37are united, I don't think such issues will be a big problem going forward.
22:42You know, because controlling, you know, some things we can control, some things we cannot control, but if we have
22:50the right conviction in ourselves,
22:52we have the right moral and ethical views, I think it's something that, you know, going forward, we can help
22:59build stronger, strong actually, a relationship between our communities and between the races and between the different races that we
23:05have around the country.
23:07Thank you, Shangri, thank you, Abu, as well for sharing your perspective.
23:10Now, as we understand Malaysia's diversity has always been one of our greatest strengths, but maintaining that harmony requires effort,
23:18understanding and empathy.
23:20I guess that's all the time that we have for tonight's episode on It's About Youth.
23:23I'm Amir Raiman, thank you for watching and good night.
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