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00:14As regional leaders ramp up efforts to confront international drug cartels,
00:21here at home, the defense minister says these international drug cartels are set to soon take over local gangs.
00:30We sat down with defense minister Wayne Sturge for more in tonight's Beyond the Headlines.
00:35Defense Minister Wayne Sturge, let me first thank you for agreeing to this interview and also acknowledging that you agreed
00:42to do this interview with us.
00:44Let me start off by asking, are you anti-media?
00:48No.
00:48What is this misinformation campaign which you suggested is being propagated by the opposition and sections of the media?
00:58Well, since September thereabouts, most of these stories in the media I felt were alarmist and many questions that were
01:13asked if asked by unknowledgeable media, that would lead me to think that they were being disingenuous.
01:22So, it's either they were being disingenuous or ignorant of the law on privilege.
01:33The opposition, Marvin Gonzalez is supposed to be a lawyer, not much of one, but one would expect that he
01:43would know.
01:44So that by filing questions in the parliament, when he knows fully well that the answers could not be given
01:52and then go to social media and conventional media and complain and give the impression that the government was hiding
02:02information, that's rank dishonesty.
02:06Because you must know that the answers to some questions cannot be answered in the public domain because once it's
02:16disseminated, then it's disseminated to the world at large and the world at large keeps the, well, includes the criminal
02:28element.
02:29So, Minister, let's talk about your latest trip. Trinidad and Tobago has, of course, joined the New America's Counter Cartel
02:36Coalition. What exactly does this commitment mean? Are we talking intelligence sharing, joint operations, possibly involving U.S. alongside TT
02:46security authorities or military action in the region?
02:49Well, it embodies all of that. Because the thing is, one of the themes is about sovereignty. And that's one
03:02of the things the opposition and other talking heads like to make a big song and dance about to say
03:09that we are, in essence, giving up our sovereignty.
03:12Sovereignty. But sovereignty, in essence, is the ability to control who comes into your borders, the ability to manage, secure,
03:24and defend your borders from persons you do not wish to enter.
03:30If that's the definition. If that's the definition, we've not been sovereign since about 2016, 2017. We had an influx
03:38of migrants from 2019, and we had very little control over who came into our borders.
03:44And quite apart from that, there was a point in the last 10 years, when three of our 18 naval
03:57vessels, only three of them, were functional.
04:00So, if you only have three functional vessels out of 18, how can you really police your borders?
04:06So, in essence, the drug cartels and the transnational criminal networks, they seemed to have been able to walk in
04:15here.
04:16So that they undermined our sovereignty.
04:19And when I came in and I realized the state of degradation of the naval assets in particular and some
04:28of the other assets, we immediately took steps to indicate to our partners what the state of affairs is and
04:37to try to correct it.
04:38So, if we are seeking an alliance with those who can help us, so that we can, in essence, strengthen
04:47or claim to sovereignty, then I can't see what's wrong with that.
04:51Now, you, of course, answered all, right?
04:55I answered all because, in essence, those are not sensitive matters of national security.
05:01As I said before, we have no desire to hide things.
05:04We would be as open as possible, but there are some things in which we cannot disclose.
05:11So, we're saying that Trinidad and Tobago can see an increased U.S. military presence here as part of that
05:19anti-cartel coalition.
05:20The United States military will be in international waters.
05:24And if there are boats or other types of vessels coming in with drugs and guns and so on, then
05:33they'll be subject to action.
05:36And that would, of course, include vessels, aircraft, personnel operating from our territory.
05:42If persons from here leave to go to South America to bring back drugs and they are in international waters
05:49bringing drugs either here or further out of the Caribbean, then they'll be subject to interception.
05:57I think I'm asking specifically if we'll be seeing more U.S. military presence on land.
06:04On land, that's a horse of a different colour.
06:09It's not necessary to have them on land.
06:13Most of the interceptions would obviously take place outside.
06:18We sought the assistance of the U.S. so that they can provide, in some cases, equipment and uniforms and
06:25so on, so that it would aid us in the interim.
06:28Equipment and uniforms?
06:30Some, yeah, not much in terms of uniforms, but that's another issue we had to deal with.
06:38I think I highlighted that some time ago where the regiment in particular, they've not had uniforms ordered since 2013.
06:52And soldiers will tell you now they have what is called a wash and wear.
06:57So they have one uniform, they wear it today, carry it home, wash it, press it, and come back tomorrow.
07:05That's pathetic.
07:07That's very unfortunate.
07:08So we have made arrangements from time to time.
07:12We get bits of uniform to try to assist us in the interim.
07:16But we have made an order.
07:19I'd like to come back to that point in a short bit.
07:22But for now, I'd like to find out from you how useful has the radar set up in Tobago?
07:27How useful has that been even after the capture of Venezuela's president, former president, Nicolas Maduro?
07:35And how long can we expect the radar to be here in operation?
07:39That's two questions for my aging brain.
07:42So if I miss the second one, you'll remind me.
07:47The first one was how useful.
07:49How useful, yeah.
07:49Okay.
07:50One has to understand, and this was not spelt out clearly, a radar does not operate in isolation.
07:56So to say that the radar could see into the Karanese swamp and detect drugs, by itself, that's not so.
08:04The radar works with drone technology.
08:08It works with satellites and other types of technology.
08:13So that when working in tandem with these other devices and bits of technology, it was very useful.
08:21In fact, at one point, the traffic in terms of boats coming into Trinidad and Tobago had dried up.
08:31But what we had seen, and this is a briefing from the CDS,
08:35we had seen an increase in drone drops and light aircraft dropping drugs and guns into our space.
08:45So the radar, in essence, in Tobago assisted us with dealing with that.
08:52Is it still useful? Does it still assist?
08:55Yes.
08:57And how long do you think we would have the radar at our disposal?
09:03It is costly.
09:05So what we are in the process of working out is a replacement.
09:09It's something that is equally as effective.
09:13With the U.S.'s help?
09:15Yes.
09:37Well, if the U.S. is taking this militarized approach,
09:40does it then mean that TNT could be a staging ground for those anti-cartel missions?
09:46Staging ground in what sense?
09:48In us providing land, space, operational support.
09:53You know, the U.S. has had a presence here since the 40s.
10:01The numbers fluctuate, as the Prime Minister would say.
10:04So there's always a presence here.
10:07Sometimes the numbers might be larger than what it usually is,
10:12and sometimes it's not that large.
10:15But a presence, yes, they have a presence.
10:17And how would you describe the presence?
10:21Large, not so large?
10:23Has it peaked already?
10:25Because I suspect it would have peaked during the conflict with Venezuela.
10:31No, it did not peak during the conflict with Venezuela.
10:37When would it have peaked?
10:40Is it in a decline now?
10:41Yes, it's, let me see, is it, no, no.
10:49No, it's not on a decline.
10:53It's steady.
10:55Right now, over the past couple of weeks, it's more or less steady.
11:01Barrowed trade winds.
11:03Yeah, and this is barrowing trade winds and other exercises, yeah.
11:08So that when there are exercises and when trade winds comes around,
11:13then you'll see an increase.
11:15An increase, okay.
11:16And you're not willing to speak numbers?
11:18No.
11:19Okay.
11:20Now, let's get back to the equipment and uniforms that you cited a short bit earlier.
11:25Now, you have asked the United States for additional military assets.
11:29That's not what we're talking about, the equipment and uniforms.
11:32Are you specifically seeking ships, civilians, aircraft, intelligence support?
11:37What are you specifically?
11:39What you're asking me to tell you, the type of assets?
11:42Generally.
11:43All right.
11:43Well, I'll ask you to harken back to the press release and read the penultimate paragraph.
11:49And that will answer your question.
11:51Let's move to cartels, the cartel presence.
11:54Based on intelligence by your ministry, available to your ministry,
12:01are international drug cartels currently operating in TNT?
12:06Yes.
12:08And if so, which cartels in particular would be of the greatest concern?
12:13Well, I wouldn't want to call China quite a cartel.
12:18That's more of a criminal network.
12:21But when we had the situation with the migrants coming in, they weren't all clean.
12:28I mean, the great majority were persons who were genuinely running from a terrible situation
12:34and trying to come here.
12:35And as I indicated previously, you know, it would take a lot out of you to leave your country
12:42where you have your family and your friends and all that,
12:46and to run to a country where they speak an entirely different language,
12:51your culture is entirely different, and you don't know anyone.
12:55So those are most of the law-abiding ones.
12:58But obviously, there's a percentile of migrants who were affiliated to Treniagua and so on.
13:08So these are the persons that we have challenges with, we continue to have challenges with,
13:15and they network with other cartels across the border.
13:20Sir, I was about to ask, how deeply are they embedded, and what have they integrated into local gangs?
13:28Some of them, I can tell you from my own experience as a criminal defense attorney, yes.
13:33Up to the time I left, some have integrated, and there's a danger that they might very soon take over,
13:43take over management.
13:46They might, the locals might want to put up a fight, but you have to understand how gangs operate.
13:51They are not just here to peddle drugs, because Treniagua and Tobago, as I indicated,
13:58and more intimated recently, we don't have a consumer problem with drugs.
14:04So Treniagua is a place where, you know, it's a trans-shipment point.
14:09So they are here to ensure that the transactions run smoothly,
14:14that the money is passed, and the drugs come, and packaged, and for onward transmission.
14:22I mean, over the past, I would say, seven or maybe more years,
14:27we've seen crimes get, murders particularly, get a little more gruesome.
14:32Is that a tell-tale sign of the South American influence, gang influence?
14:36Well, yes, and you must have seen videos of Treniagorean fishermen,
14:43and, you know, dismembered in the busway, some beheaded,
14:48and you have seen hands and feet and so on.
14:51That's a different level of criminality.
14:55It's more savage, and yes, we have seen that.
14:59And is this in particular what we are targeting when we look for that U.S. alliance?
15:04Well, it's one of the things because the violence basically comes with the territory.
15:14So if you are bringing drugs and there are disputes about wheat and about short payment
15:19and no payment and promises not kept, then there has to be some method of enforcement.
15:27And a simple shot to the head doesn't send the kind of message that a dismemberment sends.
15:32And, you know, the perception is that you are not completely dismembered.
15:38A hand might be taken off while you suffer, and then they take off another hand and so on.
15:42So that's the type of message that is being sent.
15:46And all of this in the name of ensuring that the transaction runs smoothly
15:50and that the drugs go to the intended destination.
15:53A lot of times it's Europe, and you must know, having covered the news,
15:57that some of the biggest drug busts in Europe will package right here.
16:23Are you in a position to share with us, given, you know,
16:26we just spoke about the dam and vessels, our naval capacity as it is?
16:34That is not something that I would share now.
16:37It's far better than it was.
16:40But I feel confident now to say we have support from the U.S. military.
16:47So there's nothing to fear.
16:49What were the radars that had been installed, the 360 radars installed across the country,
16:54able to give us an update on the operations of those?
16:57Yes.
16:58There's just one little anecdote I would give to you.
17:04Shortly before Prime Minister Modi arrived, we had received some information,
17:09and Minister Subas and I, we had caused to visit the radar center.
17:15The location is something I wouldn't tell you, but, you know, it's not far.
17:21And there was something curious.
17:25When we got to the radar center, we noticed a dead zone around Kali Bay,
17:31and we noticed a dead zone in Toko.
17:35That could also be by coincidence, but I would, I mean,
17:40if I had to hazard, I guess I would say it was by design.
17:43I indicated previously I made three or four trips to Matalot,
17:47and I had to ask questions over and over about the presence of our seven or eight vessels
17:55with Venice rail and flags parked just outside Toko, and they seemed to be always there.
18:01The information I got is that they were involved in drugs and human trafficking,
18:05but when we asked certain members of the military, high ranking, about it,
18:10they said they were just pleasure craft.
18:13When we asked, how do you know they were pleasure craft, you spoke to them, the answer is no.
18:17So then how do you give me an answer that it was just pleasure craft?
18:20So I had to go below and ask others to make some inquiries,
18:26and then one by one the vessels started leaving.
18:28That's Toko.
18:30But how do you have a dead zone in the Kali Bay area for a prolonged period?
18:37There was one of the, there was a person who I described as a major drug loader,
18:42the biggest in Trinidad and Tobago, who operated out of Prance Gardens in Claxton Bay.
18:49And then you have a few others who are dealers, major dealers in the Kali Bay area.
18:57That's an area known for that.
18:58How do you have dead zones only in those two areas?
19:01So yes, we had a 360, but there were dead zones, and you know, you had to wonder, well, how?
19:07And if I'm not mistaken, somewhere in the Toko, San Ygrante, that area,
19:12there's supposed to be one of those radar stations.
19:15Yes, yes.
19:17Well, that's what I've, that's exactly what I'm referring to.
19:20There's a station there, and it's not working.
19:23And when you, you come to the, when it comes to your knowledge that it's not working,
19:27and then you go up there and you see seven or eight vessels,
19:31and then no one can give you a straight answer as to why they are there,
19:35then that, that must raise your suspicion.
19:39Likewise, Kali Bay.
19:40Has that been rectified?
19:42Well, the last time I went, I went, when did I go to Matlott?
19:48Last, not this Sunday, the Sunday before, I went to Matlott, and there was only one vessel.
19:55So, I think they've all left.
19:57And Kali Bay?
19:58Well, I, the last information I had is that the tower had been rectified.
20:06Now, your critics would have said that using an SOE, your opposition critics would have said
20:11they're using a state of emergency to curb the murder at all isn't realistic.
20:17Right.
20:18What's your take on this?
20:19How would you respond?
20:21Because everybody asks, what will happen when the SOE is over?
20:24Well, what's the alternative in the interim?
20:28You throw your hands up and do nothing.
20:30That's not what a government does.
20:33When the last SOE was about to expire, we brought the Zoso legislation.
20:43And we were met with all sorts of resistance.
20:50Farris Al-Rawi said he gave reasons why it didn't see the light of day.
20:56It died at the level of the cabinet.
20:59His reasons were inconsistent with what Kareem Marcel had said in the lower house.
21:09But then we were faced with a barrage of suggested amendments.
21:16And when you read the amendments, whilst one or two of them were, in essence, things we could
21:25consider, the bulk of the amendments, I don't know.
21:31It suggested a level of dishonesty.
21:41And the thing is, when you listen to some of the contributions, it was obvious that many
21:51of the persons who made contributions, including members of the independent bench, they didn't
21:57bloody read the bill.
21:58They were asking for parliamentary oversight.
22:01That was one of the sections to the back of the bill.
22:04If they had bothered to read it, they wouldn't be suggesting those sorts of amendments.
22:09So that there was parliamentary oversight with members of both houses.
22:15There was a time period, I think it was three years, when we would have a chance to do an
22:23evaluation and a reset.
22:25And all of the amendments that they brought, it's either they did not read the bill or they had an
22:34agenda.
22:34And that was really disappointed.
22:36So, if we are faced with a situation where the Zoso bill, which is virtually identical to the one in
22:45Jamaica, and which works in Jamaica,
22:47if we are faced with a situation where we are not getting support, what do you do?
22:54You just allow people to be murdered and throw your hands up?
22:58That may be a political victory for the PNM.
23:01That's not how a responsible government operates.
23:05So, in the interim, we are looking at some of the amendments, the ones that we think might be workable.
23:14Not much, but we are looking at it with a view to bringing back, possibly bringing back the bill.
23:21But in the interim, we have to take steps to protect the citizens, because I don't know if you were
23:27aware,
23:29there was something going on WhatsApp about someone whose son was killed,
23:34and I think he got 64 stabs or something like that, and he was saying, in essence,
23:39well, he has to take down 64 people, unalive 64 people.
23:44Right, you remember, right, I'm glad you remember.
23:47And so if someone is saying, I'm going to kill 64 people, whether they were involved in the death of
23:54my son or not,
23:55what does a government do?
23:56Wait, you can't.
23:58You have to take steps to protect persons, because he's not, he's saying, I'm not going again to kill gangsters
24:05only.
24:08If I'm targeting persons in Digomartin, and I have to kill anybody I see outside, I'll do that.
24:13So what do you do as a government?
24:15You just allow them to do it.
24:17We don't have Zoso, we know to thank for that.
24:20So what we do is we take steps to protect the citizens,
24:23go after those who we know to be involved in gangs, and to try to get their assets.
24:31Can we move, oh, before we move on, was that audio verified?
24:37Is there a fact behind it?
24:39Well, we started seeing the effect of it.
24:41So if someone is promising something, and you start seeing it happening,
24:47then, I mean, I don't know how much more verification you need.
24:50It might be speculative, who knows, it might be coincidence,
24:53but you don't wait to find out 64 lives later.
24:58So, Minister, let me thank you so much for giving us more than 25 minutes of your time,
25:03and, of course, sharing what you could have under these circumstances.
25:07I hope I didn't disappoint you.
25:09Definitely not. Thank you so much again.
25:11No problem.
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