00:00Taiwan's Foreign Minister, Lin Jialong, just returned from a trip to Tuvalu, which is one of Taiwan's three diplomatic allies
00:06in the Pacific.
00:08I'm wondering how Taiwan is doing, in your assessment, in maintaining those relations,
00:13and what do you see as a state of those ties with its remaining three diplomatic allies in the region?
00:19You know, there's a lot of focus on the official diplomatic relationships, and in the Pacific there's only three with
00:25Taiwan.
00:26I think that's important. I'm a diplomat.
00:28I care about things like official recognition.
00:31But also, maybe even more important, is Taiwan's relationships with the other Pacific Islands,
00:36the ones that don't have official diplomatic ties to Taipei.
00:41And what people forget, or perhaps overlook sometimes, and yet really should be prioritized,
00:46is that those connections matter too, even if they're unofficial.
00:50And Taiwan's reputation, its brand, you know, Taiwan helps, really does matter.
00:57And so Taiwan's area of expertise, medical, maritime, Coast Guard, capacity building, infrastructure, technology,
01:07even without diplomatic relations, those sort of partnerships with the Pacific Islands really will benefit both sides, I think.
01:15And so while, yes, the foreign minister was Justin Tuvalu, and that matters, of course,
01:21but I don't keep score in terms of three countries in the Pacific, 12 countries total recognize Taiwan officially.
01:29What I'm much more impressed by and focused on are all of those other relationships, because they matter too.
01:36And I would probably say matter maybe more, because you want that widespread, you know,
01:43understanding of Taiwan's situation, appreciation of all that Taiwan does for the good of the region.
01:49Can you talk a little bit more about how Taiwan will benefit from, I guess,
01:53increasing its partnerships with countries that it doesn't have diplomatic relations with?
01:58Well, you know, Taiwan is excluded from a number of international organizations.
02:02You know, it was excluded from the last Pacific Island Forum meeting, for example.
02:07But having friends in the room who can speak, you know, to remind these organizations that Taiwan matters,
02:15even if they're not actually present in the room,
02:18to have countries that have a relationship with other countries,
02:24principally the People's Republic of China,
02:26and to use that relationship to remind Beijing that Taiwan is still part of the region,
02:34that Taiwan is an important partnership.
02:37And so I think investing in those relationships does help Taiwan,
02:42irrespective of the issue of diplomatic recognition.
02:45You know, I think the fact that you have advocates, friends, partners with Taiwan,
02:50helps Taiwan's status, helps Taiwan's position in the world,
02:57expands that international space, you know, we sometimes talk about.
03:01And, you know, I think that is helpful and effective,
03:04and in the long term, really the best way to ensure that Taiwan has those relationships,
03:13unofficial as they may be,
03:15that they can rely upon if, you know, heaven forbid,
03:19there's a crisis or some type of contingency.
03:22And Taiwan supported Tuvalu in building its first undersea cable,
03:26in partnership with the U.S., Japan, Australia, and New Zealand.
03:30And the U.S. has also announced a number of new initiatives in the region recently,
03:34and also hosted the investment summit.
03:36That's right, in Hawaii last week, with the Deputy Secretary of State, correct.
03:39I'm just wondering, what do you see as the U.S.'s overall strategy in the Pacific right now,
03:44and why do we see it kind of maybe ramping up its initiatives in the Pacific right now?
03:49Well, you know, I think the Indo-Pacific, as we describe it,
03:53is one of those areas where we actually have bipartisan consensus in the United States,
03:58that it is the consequential region of the world.
04:01You know, there may not be a lot that Democrats and Republicans agree to on today,
04:05but the Indo-Pacific is one.
04:06And so I think there's consensus and bipartisan support for what we've been doing for years now,
04:13in terms of prioritizing the U.S. relationship, working with partners in the region,
04:17and being very pragmatic about it.
04:20You mentioned a multinational, minilateral group we've organized to assist Tuvalu access the global economy.
04:27We're also working on transportation links closely with Taiwan, with Australia, and Japan,
04:34so that more people can travel more often and help connect these remote locations to the rest of the world.
04:43So we're being very functional, less political, more pragmatic.
04:49So then has the U.S.'s interest in Pacific Island nations increased
04:53because of this competition with China and its growing influence?
04:56I think the argument is we only care about the Pacific Islands because of China.
05:03I think that's wrong. Point blank. Blunt.
05:06You know, you can do both. You can do both.
05:09You can care about the Pacific Islands and also care about what the PRC is up to in the Pacific
05:14Islands.
05:15So has the concern about the PRC heightened U.S. activity in the region? Of course.
05:21You wouldn't believe me if I said it wasn't related.
05:24But that said, we can still do many things and need to do many things in the Pacific
05:30that directly benefits the Pacific Islands, irrespective of the PRC.
05:35And actually, I think the best way to ensure that the U.S. maintains a strong relationship and presence
05:42along with other countries in the Pacific Islands is to partner with Pacific Islands
05:47on the specific concerns that they care about.
05:49The environment, weather, you know, pollution, maritime issues, health, capacity building.
05:59I also wanted to ask kind of your specific experience.
06:04What specific kind of pressure did you see China putting on Palau when you were in office as ambassador?
06:11Well, sure. You know, I was there during an interesting period, obviously the pandemic and then elections.
06:18The president of Palau has been very public about the pressure he came under
06:22from the People's Republic of China during the elections.
06:25You know, he's been very vocal about being offered the moon and the stars
06:30if he were to win an election and change recognition from Taipei to Beijing.
06:36I think he even had to change his phone because the PRC's ambassador,
06:42and remember, there's no PRC ambassador in Palau.
06:44This was calling over from a neighboring country.
06:48Would call him so often that he had to change his phone number and get a new phone.
06:51So it was incessant, constant pressure being put on an important leader.
06:57But yes, I was there, you know, three years or so
07:00and saw numerous examples of PRC pressure put on Palau's government,
07:09its officials, its business people.
07:15designed, I think, to lessen or try to divide the population in terms of our relationship
07:22between the United States and Palau, to try to, I think, convince some in Palau
07:26to push for a change of its diplomatic recognition
07:31and generally to weaken, I think, the structures in Palau
07:37to make it less stable, less prosperous,
07:41which may then invite people to consider, well, you know,
07:45things are not going so great here.
07:47Maybe the PRC can help.
07:49Do you think that there is a risk that Taiwan does lose another ally in the Pacific?
07:53And I guess, if it does, how will it impact U.S. interests in the region?
07:58I hate that, by the way, as a diplomat,
08:01how we boil things down into winning and losing.
08:03I actually look at it slightly differently.
08:09And so I would anticipate, because of the PRC's pressure,
08:14Taiwan could lose other diplomatic allies in the Pacific and around the world.
08:17There's only 12 left.
08:20And that's why probably I would argue not just in terms of trying to maintain
08:26the level of official diplomatic support that Taiwan has,
08:29focus on countries that, you know, want Taiwanese partnership,
08:34even if it's unofficial.
08:36I think that is a wise investment.
08:38Do you think that the efforts that the U.S. is putting into Iran
08:43could impact its involvement in the Pacific island?
08:46It could. Yes, it could.
08:50But, you know, we've talked about the U.S. pivoting prior to the Pacific
08:55and then losing interest and focusing on another issue.
08:58And, of course, the rest of the world gets a vote, too.
09:01Ukraine has been a focus.
09:04Iran is today.
09:05Before that, Iraq and Afghanistan.
09:07You know, the world has been turbulent.
09:10We've had world wars before that.
09:11So, certainly, you know, there are issues that require American engagement and attention.
09:19That said, I think, you know, we mentioned earlier that there is still,
09:23and I predict there will be, bipartisan support for U.S. engagement in the Indo-Pacific.
09:32It's the consequential region.
09:34America is a Pacific country.
09:35I think we're always going to have an interest in the region.
09:39And I think it's in the Indo-Pacific's interest that the U.S. stays engaged.
09:44And for the moment, despite some of the political tensions in Washington,
09:49there continues to be strong, bipartisan interest in the Indo-Pacific
09:56and concern about PRC behavior and activity in the region.
10:01Mm-hmm.
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