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Renowned American economist Professor Jeffrey D Sachs has strongly criticised the US military action against Iran, describing the situation as a plan for US control over the Middle East and Israeli military hegemony.
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00:06so as the Middle East crisis worsens and Israel launches fresh attacks both on Iran and Lebanon
00:13we are now joined by professor Jeffrey Sachs Columbia University professor and one of the
00:18foremost commentators who joins us from the United States professor welcome good to be with you thank
00:25you thank you sir professor Sachs U.S. president Donald Trump said that the United States launched
00:30military action against Iran because it represented the last best chance to stop what he described was
00:38Tehran's pursuit of nuclear weapons and its backing of armed groups across West Asia in your view sir
00:45was there really an imminent threat to the U.S. that warranted such military action threat to the
00:51U.S. or Israel of course not this is a premeditated premeditated strike that has its roots 30 years
01:01of Israeli pressure this was nothing about an imminent threat this was in the middle of negotiations that
01:08were proceeding to reestablish an agreement that the United States had ripped up in 2018 regarding
01:17Iran's nuclear program everything that is being said is a lie not surprisingly the United States
01:26government lies for a living but there was no imminent threat whatsoever Iran was under a decree of its
01:36supreme leader that Israel and the United States murdered that prevented a nuclear weapon in any event
01:43on religious grounds but more than that Iran did not want a nuclear weapon it had agreed in 2015 to
01:52the joint comprehensive plan of action to put Iran under strict U.N. supervision Iran abided by the
02:01agreement the United States and Israel destroyed the agreement this is a plan for U.S. control over the
02:08the Middle East and for Israeli hegemony militarily in the Middle East it's nothing other than that
02:15that's a very big statement you're making sir that U.S. planned this Israel planned this and it's for
02:22hegemony uh in West Asia because President Trump has indicated that the U.S. has virtually unlimited supply
02:29of weapons to fight wars forever and successfully does this indicate that this conflict is not
02:38as is being said perhaps to last for another four weeks or five weeks and could be a prolonged regional
02:45war
02:46this is a very dangerous situation that could become World War III yesterday Netanyahu who is another
02:57psychopath in a psychopath in my view I have to say it very clearly because people need to understand what
03:02is
03:02happening said that this is the culmination of 40 years dream of his that's what I've been saying for years
03:11that Israel is prodding the United States into open war because Israel wants hegemony in the Middle East the
03:20United States wants global hegemony so that's what the partnership is about the idea that the United
03:27States can sustain this forever is also a fantasy everybody is saying whatever they want to say but
03:35Donald Trump unfortunately is a deep and chronic liar and very dangerous because the combination of Trump
03:43and Netanyahu have set the fuse for World War III this is disgusting premeditated dangerous for everybody
03:51dangerous for India dangerous for the world I'll come to India in just a moment and what it means for
03:58energy security uh of of India Southeast Asia and this part of the world but in the United States sir
04:05is there a disconnect on the aims and objectives of this war between let's say the White House the State
04:13Department and the Pentagon given the comments of President Trump Secretary Marco Rubio and Secretary of War Pete
04:20Hexit there's not a deep disconnect among those groups they are in confusion because they lie and they don't have
04:30their narrative straight but the disconnect is between our military security state which runs the United States and
04:39the American people that's the disconnect there is overwhelming opposition in the United States by the people to this
04:46action roughly three quarters of the American people are against it one quarter are for it they don't have a
04:55story
04:55because they're lying all the time even Marco Rubio said yesterday well we had to act because Israel was acting
05:03and
05:03we knew there would be retaliation yes this is so bizarre uh what they say when you have gangsters that
05:10are making
05:11things up they cannot coordinate their stories properly but basically this is a long premeditated war it took a lot
05:20to get
05:20all of this military power into the region so this is not something that just happens in a day or
05:27two
05:27this is long planned and as Netanyahu said this is his dream for 40 years and I've watched it close
05:36up
05:36Israel has been trying to provoke this war for decades and is there an apprehension Professor Sachs this could actually
05:45go the
05:45the Afghanistan way or the Iraq way and then America will have to put boots on ground and decades of
05:51deployment
05:52unless in your view is that the ultimate goal to remain in that region to have boots on ground in
06:00the region
06:02I don't think the American society will accept boots on the ground I don't believe it
06:08uh because uh Donald Trump is a deeply unpopular person who came into office promising exactly the opposite
06:17the American people see through these lies this is a war of choice chosen by Trump and Netanyahu
06:25the Americans do not want boots on the ground and I don't think it will happen frankly
06:31so what will happen depends on this uh underlying military situation does the US and Israel have
06:41the interceptors to do they have the interceptors to protect the region will Iran run out first will
06:50the bombing by the United States and Israel on Iran stop uh Iran's retaliation these are military questions
07:00in the next weeks that will determine the situation boots on the ground
07:05Trump will not do that except if there is martial law in the United States and I don't think that
07:11that is going to happen
07:12okay because Professor Sachs Iran's Foreign Minister Sayyad Abbas Araqchi he said a nuclear agreement was close
07:19Iran's accusing President Trump of sabotaging diplomacy by launching attacks during negotiations or preparing for attacks during negotiations
07:28and Oman has voiced similar views does that in your view sir take away from the credibility of the United
07:36States
07:36not just uh in West Asia but across the world I hope that people in India have learned that you
07:44cannot negotiate with the United States
07:46they have no principles right now they cheat they do what they want this is uh this is rule by
07:55uh the executive without uh
07:58any legislative control Trump operates uh on a uh basis of retribution or punishment he did that with India
08:08uh he's doing that here this is the second time within one year that the United States said it was
08:15negotiating
08:15and then in the midst of negotiations bombed uh the uh counterpart it also killed the counterparts of Hamas
08:24when it was negotiating with Hamas this is actually a tactic a very transparent one enter negotiations with us then
08:33we will kill you
08:34this is uh not even uh contested they uh you just have to follow the news day to day
08:41uh I have to admit I said publicly with the Iranians and everybody else you cannot negotiate with these people
08:50they are not interested in negotiations this is not about the nuclear agreement that's why Trump ripped up the agreement
08:59in 2018
09:00this is about hegemony
09:02now if people want to accept United States hegemony
09:06that's one thing if they want not to have a hegemon
09:11then it's a different story
09:13so do you want Israel running the Middle East do you want the United States running the world
09:19do you want the United States to be the British Empire of the 21st century
09:23or should countries be sovereign and living under the UN Charter
09:28that's the fundamental question that is at stake right now
09:32and that is something that we must discuss in in greater detail if you have time
09:36because uh the manner in which uh the president of Venezuela uh President Maduro was abducted on day one
09:43uh and another day you see the supreme leader of Iran being decapitated or assassinated as Iran puts it
09:50what does this say about I rules-based order or the lack of it in the world
09:56today it's these countries tomorrow it could be any country in the world
10:02the only rules-based order we have is the United Nations Charter
10:07we can decide to live with it or not live with it
10:11if we live with it then we have to recognize that what the United States government is doing
10:17is blatantly illegal
10:19because under Article 2 Paragraph 4 of the UN Charter
10:24it says that no state may use the threat of force or force against another sovereign state
10:31this is very straightforward that's the principle on which the entire rules-based order is found
10:38the United States does not accept that principle
10:41the United States is the world's empire
10:44it believes that the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must
10:50a line of Western history that goes back to the ancient wars in Greece
10:57and that is the American view
11:00even the White House has stated that international law is a nicety
11:05that is the question before the world
11:07this year India is the president of the BRICS
11:11yes
11:12does the BRICS stand for the UN or for US hegemony
11:16this is a very basic question
11:18but the United States believes it can kidnap presidents
11:21it can kill leaders
11:23it can invade when it wants
11:25it can call aggression self-defense
11:29and it believes it can get away with it
11:31now I have to admit it gets away with a lot
11:35because countries that have US military bases in them
11:40are generally vassal states of the United States
11:43and the US has military bases in around 80 countries in the world
11:48so let's talk about
11:50yes let's talk about some of those countries in West Asia right now
11:53because since the United States and Israel began striking Iran
11:57the Islamic Republic retaliated with ballistic missiles and drones
12:01and what is as of now being described as over 25 waves of attacks
12:07targeting not just Israel but also Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Iraq
12:14what is your reading of Iran's strategy of targeting countries in the region and expanding the arc of war
12:21are they hoping this would lead to these countries protesting
12:25saying their economies are getting impacted
12:27put a stop to it
12:29or will they gang up with the United States and isolate Iran even further
12:35well it's a tragedy what's happening
12:37but just to be precise what they are doing is targeting the military bases of the United States
12:43and this is very interesting
12:45think about it
12:46all of those countries
12:48Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Iraq
12:53these are countries that are home to the US military and the CIA
12:59that's what's happening right now
13:01so Iran is retaliating against an Israel-US attack
13:08by attacking the US CIA bases in the Middle East
13:14now this is extraordinarily complicated
13:17because will the Middle East countries side with Israel
13:22and with the United States in this attack
13:29maybe the governments will
13:31because maybe the governments are all afraid of being overthrown by the United States
13:36or by afraid of the CIA
13:39my advice to any government is do not host a US military base
13:45because you will be a vassal of the United States if you do
13:50my advice to India is do not join the quad
13:53India doesn't want another empire ruling over it
13:57it had an empire
13:58it didn't like it
13:59it was not satisfactory
14:01India is an independent country
14:03it should not join a US military alliance
14:06but I tell you
14:07just like the United States believes
14:10that it controls and owns the Middle East
14:13it believes that it will dominate India's politics
14:17because it will get India on side against China
14:20it's playing games everywhere
14:22it's trying to divide the world
14:25and get countries to side with it
14:27by saying you are threatened by the other side
14:31it's an old strategy
14:32it's a Roman imperial strategy
14:35in Latin
14:36divide et impera
14:38divide and conquer
14:40and that's what the United States is trying to do
14:42well India suffered
14:44as you well know Professor
14:46divide and rule of the British
14:48hopefully the very important lessons have been learned post 1947
14:52but Professor Sachs in your view
14:55will this war last as long as Iran has those rockets and missiles and drones
15:00or will US and Israel carpet bombing force the regime to surrender
15:05or perhaps as the Americans hope the leadership hopes
15:10embolden the people to take to the streets and overthrow the regime
15:14what's your reading sir?
15:17well again I don't have a crystal ball
15:20but the idea that people will take to the streets and replace the regime seems to me an utter fantasy
15:26the idea that two or three weeks of carpet bombing
15:31a vast country roughly the size of Western Europe
15:36rugged mountainous brings it to its knees seems to run against every lesson of modern warfare
15:43so no I don't believe that a few weeks of bombing as brutal as it is
15:50as many school girls as will be killed
15:53I don't believe that that will bring Iran to its knees no
15:58and the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Co
16:01they said that the Strait of Hormuz is closed for shipping traffic
16:05they warned any vessel attempting to pass through
16:07these strategic waterways would be set on fire
16:10what does this mean for global shipping for energy and economy?
16:16I think it is of course a very profound shock to the world economy
16:23to India to Southeast Asia to China
16:27it is likely to raise oil prices above $100 a barrel
16:32I believe that this is credible
16:35the Strait of Hormuz is a very narrow passage
16:39it is effectively under the control of Iranian guns
16:45I don't think the United States and Israel
16:49or the Arab countries for that matter
16:51can clear the way of the Strait of Hormuz
16:54I don't think that the insurers and the shippers
16:57are going to be passing tankers through the Strait of Hormuz
17:01so my guess is that this is for real
17:03that if it lasts many weeks or even months
17:09it will have a very significant effect on the world economy
17:15a very negative one
17:16and that it will be Europe, India and China
17:22that will pay the highest price
17:26and US Secretary of State Marco Rubio saying that
17:29the hardest hits on Iran are yet to come
17:32he has added that he wouldn't want to give away details
17:34of the tactical efforts
17:36does this indicate that this is just the initial phase of the war?
17:42so the worst phase of the war is yet to come
17:45or do you see a ray of hope that perhaps behind the scenes
17:48there could be some dialogue, some diplomacy
17:51some way to come back to the talks table
17:54there won't be a return to talks
17:57because to talk with the United States is to be killed
17:59but there could be a stop to the fighting
18:02I think that the BRICS should play the leading role in this
18:08this will not come because the United States scares Iran
18:14if the Arab countries make the mistake
18:16which they are making by the way
18:19of falling under the US umbrella
18:22then they will face continuing pounding
18:27what is needed is a bigger picture
18:30to understand that what has happened
18:32is a US attempt at hegemony
18:35it's quite an advanced and explicit one
18:38that this is not in the interest of the world
18:40that the United States and Israel need to stand down
18:44that Israel needs to stop wars all over the Middle East
18:49I know that Prime Minister Modi was just in Israel
18:52but the point is Israel is a violent expansionist
18:56regional country that aims at regional military hegemony
19:00through its monopoly of nuclear weapons in the Middle East
19:04this is a reckless policy
19:06Israel should learn to live within its own borders
19:09and that would make the world a lot safer
19:12so since you spoke of the nukes
19:14Professor Sachs
19:16Sergey Lavrov the Russian foreign minister
19:18a short while back said that the US move
19:21may just spur not just Iran
19:24but other countries to acquire a nuclear weapon
19:27because perhaps that's the only way to stay safe
19:30would you agree with that assessment?
19:32when countries have given up nuclear weapons
19:35or given up nuclear weapons programs like Libya did
19:39the United States tends to kill the leader that does it
19:44and give up
19:46Iran did not want nuclear weapons
19:49the Supreme Leader, Ali Khomeini said repeatedly
19:55in a religious sense
19:57this is against Shia Islam
20:01the United States just killed the religious leader
20:04that for decades held back
20:07Iran from developing nuclear weapons
20:10we don't know what this means
20:12but it's odd to kill the religious leader
20:15that is the one that is restraining
20:18the development of nuclear weapons
20:20but that is the twisted approach
20:22of the United States and Israel
20:24and Professor Sachs
20:26your assessment of Europe's role in this conflict
20:29President Trump has hit out at the British Prime Minister
20:32Keir Starmer for not letting them use the Diego Garcia base
20:36but France as of now is sending an aircraft carrier strike group
20:39according to reports
20:40Spain is reluctant
20:42they don't want their bases to be used
20:44how do you see Europe reacting
20:46and the impact on Europe?
20:50the impact on Europe is very negative
20:53Europe just keeps getting pummeled
20:55everything that happens is adverse to Europe
20:59whether in Ukraine
21:00whether the US threats against Greenland
21:03now this war in the Middle East
21:05Europe is very poorly led
21:07why is that?
21:09because Europe essentially
21:10is a vassal region of the United States
21:13it's almost entirely occupied
21:15by the US military and CIA
21:18and governments in Europe
21:20do not have any ability it seems
21:25to speak truthfully
21:27so they have all come out
21:29except for Spain
21:31in favor of the US attacks
21:35which have opened up this new war
21:37but that's because of how vulnerable
21:39they actually are
21:41how much of a vassal
21:44they consider themselves to be
21:46they do not speak for their own interest
21:48and that's why European interests
21:50are never represented
21:51France is a little bit different
21:53France is a former and still wannabe imperial power
22:00so France still envisions itself
22:03as having an imperial role in the Middle East
22:07notably in Lebanon
22:08this is not what the French people want
22:13this is not what Europe wants
22:15interestingly people all over the world want peace
22:18but the leaders in the United States and Israel
22:22and in Europe want war
22:24it makes these leaders deeply unpopular
22:29six body bags so far
22:31and God forbid there should be more
22:33I hope not
22:34three aircraft lost
22:35fears of escalation
22:37in your view sir
22:38Americans
22:39will they favor Trump
22:42should there be a prolonged war
22:43will that make President Trump
22:45even more unpopular
22:47post challenges in midterm
22:50I personally would be shocked
22:52if Trump found support in the United States
22:57for what he has done
22:59at the beginning of this
23:0275% of the Americans were against it
23:06if this is prolonged
23:09Trump's approval ratings
23:11in my view will plummet further
23:13he was at 37% approval
23:1760% disapproval
23:19when the war started
23:20he's not a popular man
23:22now the US government
23:24has not even been able to tell
23:25the same lie
23:27about why this war started
23:29as you noted
23:30the White House
23:31the Pentagon
23:32and the State Department
23:33are all strategically together
23:35but tactically
23:36they don't even know
23:37how to tell the same story
23:39this is not reassuring
23:40to the American people
23:42indeed it isn't
23:44but what would this mean
23:46should there be a prolonged war
23:47for places like Dubai
23:49for places like Abu Dhabi
23:50or for Saudi Arabia
23:51because Dubai
23:52Abu Dhabi
23:53they pride themselves
23:54in being as
23:55an oasis of peace
23:56a place for investment
23:58people to holiday
23:59but you know
24:01with anti-missile defense shields
24:02getting activated
24:03there would be
24:04there is
24:05unhappiness if not panic
24:08yes
24:09this already
24:10has done grave damage
24:12grave damage
24:13to the United Arab Emirates
24:15it's not something
24:16quickly to repair
24:17how can this be the safe haven
24:20if it is so easily attacked
24:22these are luxury hotels
24:24that have been hit by drones
24:26as well as military bases
24:28but this was the place
24:29supposedly to come
24:31park your money
24:32to be safe
24:33to be on holiday
24:34the airport was hit
24:36I think that this is an extraordinary
24:39miscalculation
24:40by the United Arab Emirates
24:42by the way
24:43because it had sided with Israel
24:45and in the Abraham Accords
24:48something I found rather shocking
24:50under the circumstances
24:51of Israel committing genocide
24:53in Gaza
24:54but it made that calculation
24:57now it's hoping that this war
24:59will succeed on its behalf
25:01and this reputational damage
25:03will quickly be removed
25:06but it's a very very big blow
25:09to a region that says
25:11we are the safe haven
25:13it's not a safe haven
25:15this is an old adage of Henry Kissinger
25:18that to be an enemy of the United States
25:21is dangerous
25:22but to be a friend is fatal
25:25and this is what the Arab countries are learning right now
25:28oh absolutely
25:30but before I let you go sir
25:32if President Trump says
25:34that his aim is to ensure
25:35that a radical Islamist state
25:36does not have a nuclear weapon
25:38and he means Iran
25:40he's friends with Pakistan
25:42which again is a radical Islamist state
25:45and has a nuclear weapon
25:46so it doesn't seem to add up
25:48Trump's policies
25:49there's no principle
25:51there's no consistency
25:53there's no honesty day to day
25:56there's no underlying logic
25:59except the American view of power
26:03it wants power everywhere
26:06it thinks that it controls India
26:08because it thinks that in the quad
26:11it can convince India
26:12you side with us
26:14because China's your enemy
26:15this is the old trick
26:17this is what the United States tries to do
26:20in every region
26:22but the United States does not operate
26:24on principle I'm sorry to say
26:26that's why the world is so dangerous
26:28and aflame right now
26:29we have the principles
26:31it's called the UN Charter
26:33the BRICS should defend the UN Charter
26:36do you see an off ramp anywhere in this
26:39do you see this conflict escalate in the days and weeks ahead
26:42what is a way that a solution may be found
26:46any glimmer of hope
26:48the glimmer of hope is the United States says
26:51this does not work
26:53this makes no sense
26:55this makes no sense
26:55we go home
26:56the fighting will stop
26:59so no glimmer of hope
27:01no no I didn't say that
27:03I said that the United States could be intelligent
27:06you could say
27:07that's no glimmer of hope
27:08but there are intelligent people in the United States
27:11they're just not sitting in the White House right now
27:14I will let that be the last word on this part of the show
27:17Professor Jeffrey Sachs
27:18so as always
27:19it's such a treat
27:20to hear you
27:21to talk to you
27:22and hope to have you back
27:23on the show once again
27:24and soon
27:25wonderful
27:25thank you very much
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