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00:07Tonight, as U.S. and Israeli strikes on Iran continue,
00:12the most prominent leader of the Iranian opposition tells us
00:16he believes the regime in Tehran is collapsing,
00:20and he wants to lead the transition.
00:23You have been out of the country for nearly 50 years.
00:27Why would the people want you?
00:32When Judge John Kuhnauer blocked President Trump's bid
00:35to end birthright citizenship,
00:37he wasn't prepared for what happened next.
00:40Death threats?
00:42Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Dozens of them.
00:44Dozens, if not hundreds.
00:46He's one of 400 federal judges
00:48who were targets of serious threats last year,
00:51a 78% jump since 2021.
00:54If we're not careful, we're going to get a judge killed.
01:01Four years ago, a gunman opened fire at Oxford High School,
01:05about 40 miles north of Detroit.
01:07My son is touching me and then they're shooting me.
01:11He was sentenced to life in prison.
01:13But prosecutors argued he wasn't the only one to blame.
01:17Do you think his parents failed him?
01:19Yes.
01:21This kid was asking for help at every level,
01:24and he didn't get it,
01:26and he did something horrible.
01:30I'm Leslie Stahl.
01:32I'm Scott Pelley.
01:33I'm Bill Whitaker.
01:35I'm Anderson Cooper.
01:36I'm Sharon Alfonsi.
01:37I'm Cecilia Vega.
01:39I'm John Wertheim.
01:40Those stories and in our last minute,
01:42a great poet with prose on being an American.
01:45Tonight on 60 Minutes.
01:55The United States and Israel conducted a second day of strikes on targets across Iran.
02:00Iran's supreme leader has been killed.
02:03Tehran has retaliated with missile attacks on Israel,
02:06neighboring countries,
02:07and U.S. military bases in the region.
02:10At least three American service members have been killed.
02:14Scott Pelley is in Paris following events,
02:17including what could be next for Iran.
02:21Tonight, the most prominent member of the Iranian opposition
02:26says he believes the Iranian regime is collapsing
02:29and he would like to lead a transition that makes Iran safe for the world.
02:3465-year-old Reza Pallavi is the son of the former king or shah of Iran,
02:41who was deposed in 1979 by revolutionaries and hardline Islamic clerics.
02:47In that year of revolution, Pallavi was 18 years old and living in Lubbock, Texas,
02:55where the U.S. Air Force was training him to be a fighter pilot.
02:59He was never able to go home.
03:01He has lived in exile 47 years, mostly in the United States.
03:06But tonight, he's in Paris, where we asked him if he wants to be king,
03:12what Iran's policy should be toward Israel and nuclear weapons.
03:16We started our interview with the news that the supreme leader of Iran,
03:22Ayatollah Khomeini, had been killed in the opening hours of the war.
03:28It is definitely a sort of earth-shattering event
03:33in the sense that when people identify the entire monstrosity of a regime
03:38that is depicted ultimately by the chief monster of these monsters,
03:43when he's gone, the minute such a personality disappears, it's like elation.
03:48It was like, oh my God, it has finally occurred.
03:51Maybe this is it. This is our chance now.
03:54You call him a monster.
03:57What do you mean?
03:58Well, I mean, ever since this regime has taken over,
04:00how many Iranians' lives have been lost?
04:03I don't think you can have an example of such level of atrocity
04:06ever in the history of Iran or at least contemporary Iran
04:09that has occurred under this regime.
04:11And this is all because of Ali Khamenei's insistence and persistence
04:15to keep himself and his mafia regime in power
04:18at the expense of the Iranian people.
04:20I don't know how else can you depict it other than being true monsters
04:24in the real sense of the world.
04:26This past January, Iranians poured into the streets.
04:31Pahlavi urged them on, and hundreds of thousands marched.
04:36The regime gunned down an estimated 20,000 citizens.
04:41The massacre was a prelude to war.
04:44This is video overnight after the announcement of the death of the Ayatollah
04:53in the city of Isfahan.
04:56What does that mean to you?
04:58That means that finally we are ready to go back to the streets,
05:03even though I have cautioned them that for now,
05:05you better take care of your own safety and stay at home.
05:08The time will come to go back on the streets.
05:10But then again, you see that despite that,
05:12people still are brave enough to say to hell with it.
05:16Because to us it's liberation.
05:17To us it's like a humanitarian intervention
05:20to protect lives that could otherwise continue to be lost.
05:24It gives the Iranian people a real opportunity now
05:27when they see the end of this regime
05:29that was always bound to collapse.
05:31Whether there was an intervention or not,
05:33I want to make sure your audience understand that.
05:35We were prepared to fight the fight.
05:37There was too much blood between us and this regime.
05:39We were committed to fight regardless of outside intervention.
05:43They're thanking President Trump
05:44for actually standing on his word and acting upon his word.
05:48Do you actually believe this regime could fall after almost 50 years?
05:54Of course.
05:55Prince Reza Pahlavi told us he wants to lead Iran in a transition to democracy.
06:02You don't want to be king?
06:03I'm not running for office.
06:06I'm not.
06:08Are you saying in this interview that you wouldn't lead Iran?
06:12That's a different thing.
06:14They trust me as a transitional leader,
06:16not as the future king or future president or future whatever.
06:21I'm totally focused on my mission in life,
06:23which is let me bring the country to a point
06:25that they can make that free choice.
06:27That would be enough for me having said mission accomplished.
06:29You imagine peace with Israel?
06:32Of course.
06:33In modern history,
06:35Iran actually gave refuge
06:37to Jews that were escaping the Nazis
06:39during the Second World War,
06:41giving them refuge and sanctuary in Iran.
06:43The strategic importance of having a partnership with Israel is critical.
06:49What are the principles
06:50on which you would build a new Iran?
06:53I think what today unites us
06:56are four core principles
06:58that I think is the subject of
07:00how we can work together towards that end.
07:03Number one is Iran's territorial integrity.
07:06Number two is the clear separation of religion from state,
07:09which is a prerequisite to democracy,
07:11and we pay the price understanding
07:12what it means to live under a religious dictatorship.
07:16Number three is, of course,
07:17equality of all citizens under the law
07:19and individual liberties.
07:20And most importantly,
07:22the process, a democratic process,
07:24to allow the people to elect
07:26and decide what their future system of governance should be.
07:28What would happen to the nuclear weapons program?
07:33I think it should be totally dismantled.
07:35I don't think Iran has any need
07:37to pursue a military weaponizing of the nuclear program.
07:41Pallavi's father was the last king.
07:45Mohammed Reza Pallavi was close to the United States,
07:48but he brutally suppressed opposition
07:50and showered friends with lavish wealth.
07:53In 1979, he left Iran amid rising political tension,
07:59and a hardline cleric, Ayatollah Khomeini,
08:03returned from exile to lead a revolution.
08:07Iranians blamed the U.S. for supporting the king,
08:10and revolutionaries overran the U.S. embassy in Tehran
08:15and held 52 Americans hostage for 444 days.
08:21Your father's reign is remembered for repression
08:28and opulent wealth.
08:31And I wonder why you believe the people would welcome you now.
08:36Well, you know, that's perhaps one narrative.
08:38But when you look at a lot of people
08:41who were at the time living that era,
08:45they were telling me, you know what?
08:47We recognize where we were and where we are now.
08:51And today we want to be with you.
08:52We support you.
08:53We back you.
08:54And there were people who were in those so-called prisons
08:58that were notorious or repressive or whatever you call it.
09:01They were imprisoned under the previous regime.
09:04People were killed in your father's regime.
09:07Look, look, my father left Iran voluntarily to avoid bloodshed.
09:13And he said, he said, I'm a king.
09:16A king doesn't build his throne on the blood of his own people.
09:20If the nation today wants me out, I would leave.
09:24I will not turn my guns on them.
09:26You have been out of the country for nearly 50 years.
09:31Why would the people want you?
09:33If they thought that was an issue,
09:35I don't think they'll be calling my name by the millions on the streets of Iran.
09:39I think that part of the reason people trust me only
09:43is because they cannot associate me in any way or form to the revolution
09:48or to be part of this regime.
09:51The very same people who today are in the streets,
09:54all the young kids that are getting shot and massacred by this regime,
09:59are a generation that turns to their parents
10:04and tell them, what the hell were you thinking?
10:07What was that madness to think that this Khomeini character
10:11is going to be our solution and our path to freedom?
10:14And look at where we are now.
10:16But from the day I left, I never left Iran.
10:20Iran had been on my mind every single year of my life,
10:25every single...
10:26When I wake up in the morning,
10:28the first thing that is my mind is Iran.
10:30Pallavi told us he is in touch with the Trump administration
10:34and members of Congress.
10:36What is your message to President Trump?
10:40My message to President Trump is that I'm here to echo
10:43and join millions of my compatriots inside and outside of Iran
10:47to thank him for having done and having the courage
10:51to do what is not easy, but intervene.
10:55And he will go down in the annals of Iranian history
10:57as the most celebrated foreign leader that changed the ballgame
11:01and changed the world as a result.
11:03In January, President Trump said this about you.
11:08Quote,
11:09He seems very nice,
11:11but I don't know how he'd play within his own country.
11:15I don't know whether or not his country would accept his leadership.
11:18And certainly, if they would, that would be fine with me.
11:23You don't seem to have President Trump's wholehearted support.
11:28Well, first of all, I don't think that somebody in my position
11:31will ever expect to have an official endorsement
11:34of a foreign government or a foreign leader.
11:37What I do know now is that millions of Iranians inside Iran
11:40and outside of Iran are calling my name.
11:42They recognize in me the person uniquely placed
11:46to play a role of transitional leadership.
11:48Not running for office, because that's not what I'm doing,
11:52but to be a bridge to that destiny.
11:55Unrest has been building for months.
11:57Last June, U.S. and Israeli forces
12:00attacked Iran's nuclear facilities.
12:02And in 2022, one of the largest uprisings
12:06in the nearly 50-year history of the regime erupted.
12:10Iran's morality police arrested a 22-year-old woman,
12:15accusing her of failing to cover her hair.
12:19She was killed in custody.
12:21And crowds moved into the streets
12:24to demand an end to the regime.
12:26Security forces killed more than 500,
12:30arrested 22,000, and blacked out the Internet.
12:34Much of the population has been seething
12:38right through today.
12:40When you see the courage on the streets
12:44that we're witnessing now,
12:47I wonder how that moves you.
12:50I think it's the ultimate definition of heroism.
12:54Do you remember that lone Chinese student
12:57in Tiananmen Square standing in front of that tank?
13:01I remember that image.
13:04Let me give you another visual
13:05that has been going viral on the cyberspace.
13:10That firefighter who was carrying a wounded person
13:13that was shot on the streets just a few weeks ago,
13:15and they shot him to death.
13:18That image.
13:22You know, I exemplify that.
13:34It's a tremendous thing to witness.
13:39Pallavi told us there are units in the military
13:43and police who have signaled to him
13:46that they would turn on the hardline government.
13:49He says many, but not all, troops
13:52could be given amnesty
13:54in a process of national reconciliation.
13:58And, in fact, it will be a clear indication
14:01that this is the time for them to make a decision.
14:04Do you want to join this time with the people
14:05or do you want to stand with the sinking ship?
14:08It's possible that this interview
14:10will penetrate the Internet blackout,
14:12and I wonder what you say to the Iranian people.
14:16Have faith in yourselves.
14:19You are a nation with an ancient civilization.
14:22I know how proud you are of your heritage,
14:25how important Iran is to all of them.
14:27And I always said to them, I said, you know what?
14:30I know you're always hoping for a better future.
14:34What I would like you to start doing,
14:38and I've started to answer my call,
14:40is instead of hoping, start believing that it can be done.
14:49Five decades of covering Iran.
14:51He calls you imam.
14:53Forgive me.
14:54His words, not mine.
14:55A lunatic.
14:56You are like a CIA investigator.
15:00Go inside the 60 Minutes archive
15:03at 60MinutesOvertime.com.
15:10When the Supreme Court recently struck down
15:13President Trump's tariffs,
15:15he lashed out at two justices he had nominated,
15:18calling them fools and lapdogs.
15:20The president has frequently railed against judges
15:23when they rule against him.
15:25What often happens next
15:27is a barrage of violent threats
15:29from his followers against those judges.
15:31We spoke with 26 federal judges,
15:34nine Democratic appointees,
15:3717 Republican,
15:38both sitting and retired.
15:40The sitting judges told us
15:42they feel under siege.
15:44Most would not appear on camera,
15:46fearful for their safety.
15:48Judge John Kuhnauer,
15:49appointed by Ronald Reagan,
15:51is one of the few who would.
15:53He blocked President Trump's bid
15:55to end birthright citizenship.
15:57He wasn't prepared for what happened next.
16:02My wife and I are at home
16:04and the doorbell rings
16:07and I go to the door
16:08and there's, I think,
16:10five sheriff's deputies there
16:13with long rifles.
16:15And they show up with guns drawn.
16:17Oh, yeah.
16:18Yes, yes.
16:19Long guns.
16:20Very intimidating guns.
16:23And they said to me,
16:25Sir, could we see your wife?
16:27And I said,
16:29Whatever for?
16:30And they said,
16:31Well, sir, we've had a report
16:33that you've murdered your wife.
16:35It was a cruel hoax.
16:37The next day,
16:38a bomb threat.
16:39For John Kuhnauer,
16:41a federal district court judge
16:42in Washington state,
16:43it didn't end there.
16:45There was a congressman
16:47that had a wanted poster.
16:48It said wanted in big letters
16:50at the top
16:51and then a picture
16:52of several of us.
16:54It said everything
16:55except dead or alive.
16:57His trouble started
16:59when President Trump
17:00signed an executive order
17:01to end the 14th Amendment's
17:03guarantee of citizenship
17:05for infants born on U.S. soil
17:07to non-citizens.
17:09Judge Kuhnauer ruled it,
17:10quote,
17:11blatantly unconstitutional.
17:13The threats poured in.
17:15Some of it was very,
17:17very ugly
17:19and very threatening.
17:21Death threats?
17:22Oh, yes.
17:23Oh, yes.
17:23Dozens of them.
17:25Dozens, if not hundreds.
17:26Judge Kuhnauer told us
17:28threats come with the turf.
17:30He has sentenced
17:31an Al-Qaeda bomber
17:32and Montana militia members
17:34and needed
17:35round-the-clock protection.
17:36But he said he'd never
17:38had as many death threats
17:40as with the birthright
17:41citizenship case.
17:43I've been at this
17:44for 44 years.
17:45I have never encountered
17:47the hostility
17:49toward the judiciary
17:50that has existed
17:52in this country
17:53in the last year.
17:55And I don't think
17:56it's because we're
17:57making bad decisions.
17:59I think it's because
18:01there are people
18:02who think that
18:03they can make
18:03a lot of political hay
18:05out of criticizing
18:05the federal judiciary.
18:07And also,
18:08we cannot allow
18:09a handful of communist
18:10radical-left judges
18:11to obstruct the enforcement
18:13of our laws
18:14and assume the duties
18:15that belong solely
18:17to the president
18:17of the United States.
18:19When President Trump
18:20lost a battle in court
18:21to deport migrants,
18:23he called the judge
18:24a lunatic.
18:25When immigration crackdowns
18:27were ruled illegal,
18:28he called the judges
18:29monsters.
18:30It's incendiary comments
18:32like that
18:33that have provoked
18:34a torrent of death threats.
18:36Our reporting found
18:37hundreds of threats
18:39were left on
18:39judges' voicemails.
18:41This one,
18:42after a judge ruled
18:43the president
18:43had violated
18:44the First Amendment.
18:45I hope your whole family
18:46and everybody you love
18:47is raped in front of you
18:49and has their heads cut off.
18:50And this one,
18:51after a judge ruled
18:52the president couldn't
18:53cut certain government benefits.
18:55And I wish somebody
18:57would f***ing assassinate
18:58your ass.
18:59It's a volcano
19:00of vitriol.
19:02I double dare you
19:03to try to put charges
19:04on Donald J. Trump.
19:06You son of a bitch.
19:09It falls to the U.S. marshals
19:11to pinpoint the verbal threats
19:12that might lead
19:13to physical violence.
19:15Judges told us
19:16the marshals
19:17are overwhelmed.
19:18Last year,
19:19400 federal judges
19:21were targets
19:21of serious threats,
19:23a 78% jump
19:25in four years.
19:26In very plain English,
19:28if we're not careful,
19:30we're going to get
19:31a judge killed.
19:33It's just that stark.
19:35It's that serious.
19:36It's that serious.
19:37Judge John Jones
19:39is a retired federal judge
19:40from Pennsylvania,
19:41a George W. Bush appointee.
19:43He and 55 other retired judges
19:46were so concerned,
19:47they formed a bipartisan group
19:50to lobby the White House
19:51to stop demonizing judges.
19:54This is such a toxic environment
19:56where people are taking arms
19:58and can identify
20:00where a judge lives,
20:01can strike out against that judge
20:03or the judge's family members.
20:04So when President Trump
20:07attacks judges as rogue,
20:11deranged, corrupt,
20:13what do you think he's doing
20:15and why?
20:16I think that he's attempting
20:18to delegitimize
20:22the federal courts.
20:23Why would he do that?
20:24What's the benefit to him?
20:26It's a presidency
20:27sort of on steroids.
20:28And you have a very dormant,
20:31I think,
20:31United States Congress
20:32and a president
20:33who means to really say
20:35what the law is.
20:36Well, you know,
20:38civics taught me
20:39that Congress makes the law
20:41and the president
20:43faithfully executes
20:44the laws of the country.
20:45We've turned that
20:46on its head right now.
20:48Okay, we'll sign right here, right?
20:50Judge Jones told us
20:51this White House
20:52is testing the bounds
20:53of presidential power.
20:55White power!
20:56Today,
20:57the Trump administration
20:57is facing 600 lawsuits
21:00contesting its agenda,
21:01from immigration
21:02to job cuts.
21:03Judges are caught squarely
21:05in the crossfire.
21:07As a judge
21:08who has taken an oath
21:11to uphold the Constitution
21:13and defend the rule of law,
21:14I have a duty
21:15to call this out.
21:17That's why I'm talking to you.
21:19Judge Esther Salas
21:20is a federal district court
21:21judge in New Jersey.
21:22A Barack Obama appointee,
21:25she has become
21:25a leading voice
21:27against the personal attacks
21:28on judges,
21:29which has made her
21:30the target of death threats.
21:32She knows the stakes.
21:34In 2020,
21:36a failed litigant
21:37came to her front door,
21:39shot her son Daniel dead,
21:41and wounded her husband Mark.
21:43It was not driven by politics,
21:45but she fears
21:46today's inflammatory rhetoric
21:48makes such horrors
21:50more likely.
21:51I'm more concerned
21:52right now
21:53than I was
21:54after my only child
21:56was murdered.
21:57Why?
21:59Because I think
22:00that the attacks
22:01against the judiciary
22:02are only getting worse.
22:06What I'm seeing now
22:07is far different
22:08than what I've seen
22:09in the past.
22:10This is coming
22:11from our national leader
22:13on down.
22:14Judge Salas told us
22:15vilifying judges
22:17is eroding trust
22:18in the courts.
22:20If you disagree
22:21with a ruling
22:22that we make,
22:23appeal us.
22:25If you disagree
22:26with a sentence
22:27we render,
22:28appeal us.
22:30The answer is not
22:31to dehumanize us,
22:33and that has been,
22:35I think,
22:36the active agenda
22:37as of late.
22:38I feel like sometimes
22:40our political leaders
22:40are playing Russian roulette
22:42with our lives.
22:43Do you think
22:44the rhetoric
22:47emboldens people?
22:49I do.
22:51I think it's dangerous.
22:53In a statement,
22:55the White House said,
22:56as a survivor
22:57of two assassination attempts,
22:59no one understands
23:00the dangers
23:01of political violence
23:02more than President Trump.
23:04It went on
23:05to accuse
23:05the judiciary
23:06of brazen defiance
23:08with its unlawful rulings.
23:10These activist judges...
23:12Deputy Attorney General
23:14Todd Blanche
23:14called it a war.
23:16We are routinely
23:18getting stays
23:18and getting reversals
23:20because of local judges
23:21just not following
23:23the law full stop.
23:26And it's the same judges,
23:28or not the same judges,
23:29but there's a group
23:30of judges
23:30that are repeat players,
23:31and that's obviously
23:32not by happenstance.
23:34That's intentional.
23:36And it's a war, man.
23:39Todd Blanche declined
23:40our request for an interview.
23:42In a statement to us,
23:43he said some judges
23:45continue to issue
23:46overbroad
23:47and even unreasoned injunctions,
23:49but adding,
23:50threats and intimidation
23:52of federal officials
23:53is unlawful.
23:54Judge John Kunauer
23:56told us
23:56the Constitution
23:57is a judge's north star.
24:00So to someone
24:00who says
24:01that you are
24:02a political agent
24:03in trying to thwart
24:06the goals of the president,
24:08you would say...
24:09I would say
24:10you don't understand
24:11what we do.
24:13We apply the Constitution
24:15for the last 250 years
24:17in this country.
24:18It's been the judges
24:19that say
24:21this is either constitutional
24:22or it isn't.
24:23If nobody's going
24:25to make that decision,
24:26nobody's going
24:26to enforce
24:27the Constitution,
24:29it becomes
24:30like the Constitution
24:31of Russia.
24:33The threats
24:33aren't just coming
24:35from the right.
24:35In 2020,
24:37Senate Minority Leader
24:38Chuck Schumer
24:39warned that Supreme Court
24:41Justices
24:41Neil Gorsuch
24:42and Brett Kavanaugh
24:43would, quote,
24:44pay the price
24:45for restricting abortion.
24:46He later apologized.
24:48In 2022,
24:50a would-be assassin
24:51was arrested
24:52for trying to kill
24:53Justice Kavanaugh
24:54at his home.
24:55But Judge Jones,
24:56a Republican appointee,
24:58told us
24:59the violent language
25:00of the right
25:01has no match.
25:02The national rhetoric
25:04from both sides
25:06has probably gotten
25:07worse over time.
25:09However,
25:10I would not concede
25:12that the Democratic Party
25:13or that Democratic officeholders
25:15have conducted themselves
25:17in any way
25:18that's similar
25:19to what this administration
25:20is doing
25:20with respect
25:21to the federal judiciary.
25:22There's simply
25:23no evidence of that.
25:24And when you look
25:25at the database,
25:26it's the names
25:27and addresses
25:28of hundreds
25:28of elected officials
25:29and judges.
25:31Ron Zayas
25:32is the CEO
25:32of Ironwall,
25:33a company that scrubs
25:35judges' personal data
25:36from the web.
25:37So here's another threat
25:38that we have
25:39toward a judge.
25:40Zayas told us
25:41in 14 years
25:42he has never seen
25:43as many violent threats
25:45as today.
25:46You know,
25:46if you broadcast
25:47that message
25:48to a million people,
25:50you just need one
25:51to act on it.
25:52And that's
25:53the terrifying part
25:54that judges
25:55are having
25:55to deal with today.
25:57Zayas also combs
25:58through the dark web.
26:00Look at the gallows,
26:01my God.
26:01A criminal haven
26:03on the Internet
26:03where anonymous threat actors
26:05try to cause
26:06real-world harm.
26:08These days,
26:09Zayas is worried
26:10about a new type
26:11of threat.
26:12The threats
26:13used to be
26:13you ruled against me
26:15and I want to kill you.
26:17Now the kind of threats
26:18we're seeing,
26:19there's a whole other sphere
26:20of saying,
26:21I want to influence
26:22what you do.
26:23It's mob mentality.
26:24They want to threaten you
26:25so that you make
26:26the right decision.
26:27The marshals
26:28are also investigating
26:29a striking new form
26:31of intimidation.
26:33Hundreds of unsolicited pizzas
26:35sent to judges
26:36and their children
26:37across the country.
26:38An innocuous delivery
26:40with an ominous message.
26:42We know where you live,
26:44we know where your children live,
26:46and do you want to end up
26:48like Judge Salas' son?
26:50At least 20
26:51were sent to homes
26:53in the name
26:53of Judge Salas' late son.
26:56The order form
26:57had my murdered son's name
26:59on it.
27:00They're weaponizing
27:02my baby boy.
27:05They're weaponizing
27:06Daniel's name
27:07to inflict fear
27:08on judges.
27:10I know that's shocking,
27:12but it must be
27:13so painful.
27:14Oh.
27:16You know,
27:17that one took me.
27:18And you add to that
27:20for flavor
27:22that I have yet
27:23to see the attorney general
27:24or the deputy attorney general
27:27stand at a podium
27:28and denounce
27:30these forms
27:32of intimidation.
27:33Attorney General Pam Bondi
27:36also declined
27:37our request
27:38for an interview.
27:39Judge Salas,
27:41among many others,
27:42told us
27:42the rule of law
27:44is at stake.
27:45I sit here
27:46as Daniel's mom.
27:48I sit here
27:49as a woman
27:50who lost
27:51her only child.
27:54Mark and I
27:55have been
27:56to hell and back.
27:59And when I see
28:00that kind
28:01of irresponsible behavior
28:04coming from
28:05our political leaders
28:06and people in power,
28:08it makes me sad.
28:12And it makes me
28:13very worried
28:15because I worry
28:16for our democracy.
28:18I really do.
28:30Since the 1999
28:32Columbine High School
28:33Massacre in Colorado,
28:35there have been
28:3584 mass shootings
28:37at schools
28:37across the United States.
28:39Each tragedy
28:40is uniquely horrific.
28:42But the response
28:43from lawmakers
28:44has become
28:44frustratingly predictable.
28:46Condolences,
28:47partisan rhetoric,
28:49and ultimately,
28:49inaction.
28:51Which is why
28:52we took note
28:52of how some prosecutors
28:54are pursuing these cases.
28:55They're not just
28:56putting the gunmen
28:57behind bars.
28:58They're starting
28:59to hold the shooter's
29:00parents responsible.
29:02For the past two weeks,
29:03the father of an accused
29:05high school mass shooter
29:06has been on trial
29:07in Barrow County, Georgia.
29:10Prosecutors there argue
29:11that he ignored
29:12red flags about his son
29:13before the teen
29:15shot up Appalachee High
29:16in 2024,
29:18a tragedy
29:19that left Ford dead.
29:21It's not the first time
29:22the parent
29:23has been put on trial.
29:24Tonight,
29:25we'll look at
29:26the precedent-setting case
29:27out of Oxford, Michigan
29:29and ask whether
29:30holding parents accountable
29:31is enough
29:32to break the cycle
29:33of school shooting violence.
29:39Four years ago,
29:41on a cold November day,
29:42a gunman opened fire
29:44at Oxford High School,
29:45about 40 miles
29:46north of Detroit.
29:48My son's got to see me
29:49and say,
29:49you're shooting it.
29:50Okay, ma'am,
29:51I'm going to let you go.
29:51A 15-year-old student
29:53walked the halls
29:54armed with a 9mm handgun,
29:57killing four schoolmates.
29:58Among them,
29:5916-year-old Tate Meir,
30:01a star athlete
30:02and student mentor,
30:04and 14-year-old
30:05Hannah St. Juliana,
30:06just three months
30:08into her freshman year.
30:09Hannah was a bright light.
30:11Making people laugh
30:12is, I think,
30:13what most people remember
30:14about her,
30:15her smile and her laugh.
30:16Tate had a crazy,
30:18crazy, awesome zest
30:20for life.
30:21He was an incredible soul.
30:23It's hit the community hard.
30:24Buck Meir and Steve St. Juliana
30:26now find themselves
30:27on a growing list
30:28of families
30:29whose children
30:30have been killed
30:31in school shootings.
30:32How are we doing
30:33as a country
30:34moving towards
30:35this not happening again?
30:37We're not moving
30:37in that direction.
30:39Yeah, we're going backwards
30:40at the moment.
30:41Yep.
30:42Why do you say that?
30:43Changes that have been
30:44made at legislative level
30:46trying to add more
30:48mental health support,
30:50more gun control.
30:52It's all being reversed.
30:54We don't seem to be
30:55wanting to learn from them.
30:56You know?
30:58I feel like we need
30:59to get in prevention.
31:02Prevention might have
31:04protected Oxford High students
31:05from this moment.
31:08There were red flags
31:09for months.
31:10Prosecutors say
31:11the gunman,
31:12Ethan Crumbly,
31:13had texted his mother
31:14on multiple occasions
31:16that he saw demons
31:17in the family home.
31:19Three months before
31:20the shooting,
31:21he assured a friend
31:22he was just kidding
31:23after he texted
31:24that it's time
31:25to shoot up the school.
31:27And 24 hours
31:28before the attack,
31:30his troubling conduct
31:31escalated.
31:32According to prosecutors
31:34and court testimony,
31:35here's what happened.
31:36A teacher
31:37emailed administrators
31:38that she saw
31:39the sophomore
31:40looking at different bullets
31:41online in class.
31:43A school administrator
31:45left a voicemail
31:46for the boy's mother.
31:47She didn't respond,
31:48but later texted her son,
31:50LOL, I'm not mad.
31:52You have to learn
31:53not to get caught.
31:54The next morning,
31:56just hours before
31:57the shooting,
31:58another teacher
31:59alerted administrators
32:00that the teen's
32:01math worksheet
32:02had drawings of a gun,
32:03a bullet,
32:04and a person bleeding.
32:06Along with the words,
32:07the thoughts won't stop.
32:09Help me.
32:09Blood everywhere.
32:11He was taken
32:12to a guidance counselor's office
32:13and his parents
32:14were called in.
32:15The counselor testified
32:17that he recommended therapy
32:18and suggested the Crumblies
32:20take their son home,
32:22but they refused,
32:23citing work.
32:24The meeting lasted
32:25just 12 minutes.
32:27They left,
32:28and he went back to class.
32:30His backpack
32:31was never checked.
32:32Two hours later,
32:34surveillance video shows
32:35the 15-year-old
32:36walked into the bathroom,
32:38pulled a gun out
32:39of that backpack,
32:40entered the hallway,
32:41and started shooting.
32:43Police found his journal
32:45on the bathroom floor,
32:46detailing his desire
32:48and plan
32:49to shoot up his classmates.
32:51Later,
32:52investigators learned
32:53that just three days
32:54before the attack,
32:55his mother had taken him
32:56to a shooting range
32:57with that 9-millimeter handgun,
33:00which his father
33:01had purchased for him
33:02as an early Christmas present.
33:04Do you think
33:05his parents failed him?
33:07Yes.
33:08I think there was
33:10plenty of red flags there
33:12for them to be aware
33:15that he was in crisis,
33:17and their answer to that
33:20was to go buy him a gun
33:21and take him shooting,
33:26which there's nothing wrong
33:27with that activity
33:28in and of itself,
33:29but when that's your answer
33:31to a child in crisis,
33:33that's a problem.
33:35I'll never forgive him,
33:36right,
33:36but this kid was asking
33:39for help
33:39at every level,
33:41and he didn't get it,
33:43and he did something horrible.
33:46Is it your own choice
33:47to plead guilty?
33:48Yes, sir.
33:49He pled guilty
33:50to all charges
33:51and was sentenced
33:52to life in prison.
33:54But prosecutors argued
33:55he wasn't the only one
33:57to blame.
33:57His parents
33:59were each convicted
34:00of four counts
34:01of involuntary manslaughter
34:02for failing to secure the gun
34:04and ignoring the warning signs
34:06of their son's
34:07mental health crisis.
34:09I believe that
34:10the following sentences
34:11would be in the best
34:11interest of justice.
34:13They were sentenced
34:13to at least 10 years
34:15in prison.
34:16It is the first time
34:17that parents
34:18anywhere in the country
34:19have been held
34:20criminally responsible
34:21for a mass school shooting
34:23committed by their child.
34:25Our society refuses
34:27to take significant action
34:29to protect our children.
34:32So one of the only places
34:35that we can put this
34:36back onto
34:36are the parents.
34:38What's really unfortunate
34:39here is
34:40when you want to think
34:41about the shooting
34:43and accountability,
34:46only the shooter
34:47and the parents
34:47have been held accountable.
34:49There's been no accountability
34:50at the school.
34:51Should the school
34:51bear some responsibility?
34:52Absolutely.
34:53I mean, they're in the
34:54business of kids.
34:56I mean, the kid
34:57was in a counseling office.
34:58He was obviously in crisis.
35:00He basically already
35:01had a gun in his hand.
35:02And the counseling office
35:04fumbled it.
35:06Victims' lawsuits
35:07against school officials
35:09and the district
35:10have been dismissed,
35:11citing Michigan's
35:12government immunity laws,
35:14which protect public entities
35:15and their employees
35:17from being sued.
35:18Immunity is driving inaction.
35:20Yeah.
35:20The law enforcement says,
35:22well, we don't want
35:23to waste our time
35:25doing the investigation
35:26because they've got immunity.
35:29Prosecutors are the same way.
35:30They don't want to prosecute
35:31or try to prosecute
35:33because, well,
35:33they're coming up
35:34against immunity.
35:35So why bother?
35:36So why bother?
35:37And that's where we've gone.
35:38I mean, we fought consistently
35:41just to have
35:42this investigation done.
35:44I imagine that
35:45there will be people
35:46who say,
35:46the schools are already
35:47stretched thin.
35:48They don't have the ability
35:50to do much
35:51with a kid
35:52who's in trouble.
35:54We can't let them
35:55off the hook.
35:56This was preventable.
35:58There are no national standards
36:01after a school shooting,
36:02no federal mandates
36:03for state reviews
36:05or investigations.
36:06Typically,
36:07the FBI
36:08is only required
36:09to investigate
36:10if it's considered
36:11an act of terror
36:12or a hate crime.
36:14After months of pressure
36:16from the community,
36:17the Oxford School Board
36:18hired a private security firm
36:20called Guidepost
36:21to conduct
36:22an independent investigation.
36:24But that path
36:25was full of roadblocks.
36:27Guidepost doesn't have
36:28the legal authority
36:29to compel testimony.
36:32So of the 161 people
36:34they asked to interview,
36:36Guidepost reported
36:37that approximately 70
36:38refused or would not respond,
36:40including two school employees
36:43who met with the shooter
36:44hours before the incident.
36:46The district told us
36:47that many staff members
36:49had given depositions
36:50and court proceedings.
36:51But according to Guidepost,
36:53those interviews
36:54didn't fully address
36:55all of their questions.
36:57Guidepost concluded
36:58that teachers at Oxford High
37:00acted appropriately
37:01by immediately raising concerns.
37:04Guidepost investigators
37:05faulted the school
37:06for not following
37:07established threat
37:08assessment protocols,
37:09writing this tragedy
37:11was avoidable.
37:12The Michigan Attorney General's
37:14office says
37:14it is now investigating.
37:17When a mass shooting
37:18occurred...
37:18James Densley
37:19and Gillian Peterson
37:20are professors of criminology
37:22and founders of
37:23the Violence Prevention Project,
37:25a St. Paul, Minnesota-based
37:27non-profit
37:28that studies mass shootings.
37:30You think about
37:31all the things
37:31that were learned
37:32after 9-11
37:33and how that created
37:34an entire infrastructure
37:36and an apparatus
37:36around dealing
37:37with terrorism.
37:38We don't see that same
37:39type of urgency
37:40with the mass shooting problem.
37:42Instead, we get
37:43sort of thoughts and prayers.
37:44We get a situation
37:45where we pit off
37:46imperfect solutions
37:47against each other
37:48because no one
37:48can agree on anything.
37:50And then that creates
37:51a situation
37:52where there's no action.
37:53So what is missing
37:55is that definitive action
37:57where we can create
37:58a template
37:59that everybody else
38:00then follows suit.
38:01One of the guys
38:02we interviewed...
38:03Densley and Peterson
38:04have spent the last
38:0510 years researching
38:06hundreds of mass shootings,
38:08interviewing those
38:09who knew the gunmen
38:10and also the shooters themselves,
38:13hoping to better understand
38:14their pathways to violence
38:16and how to stop them.
38:17What's the pattern
38:18that emerged from the data?
38:20We saw an early childhood
38:23with a lot of pretty significant
38:25violence or neglect,
38:28domestic violence in the home
38:30that kind of laid the foundation.
38:31Did you ever say
38:33to any of these mass shooters,
38:35could somebody have stopped you?
38:37That was one of the questions
38:39I asked every time.
38:40Is there anyone
38:41or anything
38:42that could have stopped you?
38:43And every person
38:45we talked to said yes.
38:47One of them even said,
38:48I think anyone
38:49could have stopped me.
38:50Their research shows
38:52that over 90%
38:53of all school mass shooters
38:55broadcast their plans online
38:57or in person
38:59before they commit the atrocity.
39:02Investigators say
39:03the gunmen in Parkland, Florida,
39:05Shooter in the windows!
39:06Uvalde, Texas,
39:08and Apalachee High
39:10in Winder, Georgia,
39:11all told people
39:13about their intent
39:14before the attacks.
39:15They're feeling hopeless
39:17and they feel isolated
39:19and they're looking
39:21for that notoriety.
39:22They want to be seen
39:23no matter how dysfunctionally.
39:25No matter how dysfunctionally,
39:27it's better than not being seen.
39:29Often you see
39:30after a school shooting
39:32more metal detectors,
39:34clear backpacks,
39:35and drills.
39:37If a school is given
39:38this kind of emergency resources
39:40to make their kids safer,
39:43is that the best use of them?
39:45It's not the best use of them.
39:47And all of that security
39:49ends up being
39:50kind of theatrical, right?
39:52Like it makes you feel better,
39:53maybe.
39:53But if a student
39:55is the perpetrator,
39:56it doesn't do anything.
39:57And so you're better off
39:59spending resources
40:00on things like
40:01teams that communicate
40:03with each other, right?
40:05School-based mental health,
40:06crisis intervention,
40:08suicide prevention.
40:09And the data bears that out.
40:10The data over and over again
40:12bears that out.
40:13The best thing we can do
40:14to prevent violence
40:15is not to push kids out,
40:16it's to actually pull them in.
40:19They've probably been...
40:20The researchers are part
40:21of a pilot program in Minnesota
40:22designed to teach school staff
40:24how to identify kids in crisis
40:26and wrap them up with services.
40:29In 2022, after Uvalde,
40:32Congress passed a bipartisan bill
40:35that included a billion dollars
40:36in grants for mental health
40:38services at schools.
40:40But last April,
40:41the majority of that funding
40:43was discontinued.
40:44The Department of Education
40:46explained the programs
40:47conflicted with the
40:48administration's priorities.
40:49In December,
40:51it awarded $208 million
40:53for credentialed school
40:55mental health providers,
40:56a fraction of the original funding.
41:00Something has to change.
41:02I mean, gun violence
41:03is the number one killer
41:04of our children in America.
41:06And our society currently
41:09seems to have its head
41:10in the ground,
41:11refusing to acknowledge this,
41:14just saying,
41:15oh, it's the way it is.
41:17No, that's a ridiculous answer.
41:19This is not something
41:20that is insurmountable.
41:22We can make great strides
41:26to prevent this from happening again.
41:28We just aren't.
41:37The Last Minute of 60 Minutes
41:40is sponsored by UnitedHealthcare,
41:43coverage you can count on
41:44for your whole life ahead.
41:49Six poets have read
41:50at a U.S. presidential inauguration,
41:53including Robert Frost
41:54and Maya Angelou.
41:55Amanda Gorman was 22
41:57when she read her poem,
41:58The Hill We Climb,
42:00at Joe Biden's inauguration.
42:01As the nation celebrates
42:03250 years of independence,
42:05we asked Gorman,
42:06what does it mean
42:07to be an American?
42:09When I think about
42:10what it means
42:11to be an American,
42:12I truly believe
42:14it's more than
42:15a pride we inherit.
42:16It's the past we step into
42:18and how we repair it,
42:20meaning that being an American
42:22is more than just
42:23remembering our history.
42:25It's how we heal it.
42:26It's how we recover.
42:28It's how we hold ourselves
42:30accountable to being
42:31the best that we can be.
42:33Part of my American story
42:35is being someone
42:36who's descended from slaves.
42:38And how that informs
42:39my own Americanhood
42:40is it teaches me
42:41that freedom, equity, liberty
42:44are not just things
42:45we can take for granted.
42:46They must be fought for,
42:48protected, and cherished.
42:50And so my rights
42:52and my role
42:52and responsibility
42:53as an American
42:54is both to love
42:56my own freedom,
42:57but to love and defend it
42:58for other people as well.
43:00It's to remember yesterday
43:02and always walk pridefully
43:04into tomorrow.
43:06I'm John Wertheim.
43:07We'll be back next week
43:08with another edition
43:09of 60 Minutes.
43:1560 Minutes.
43:1660 Minutes.
43:1860 Minutes.
43:1860 Minutes.
43:2160 Minutes.
43:2260 Minutes.
43:2260 Minutes.
43:2260 Minutes.
43:2360 Minutes.
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