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00:00Please welcome to the stage, Mr. Brian Penny.
00:03I was drinking a bottle of vodka a day,
00:05about 20 Valium and sleeping tablets a day,
00:08three to four bags of heroin a day,
00:10and 100ml of methadone a day.
00:12As a nation, we are predisposed to excess.
00:17It's easier to get drugs than it is to order food.
00:20Online betting, online shopping, online video gaming,
00:24online social media, it is undeniable.
00:27For 15 years, I was addicted to heroin,
00:29and other drugs.
00:30Do you want to see your image from 2013, Brian?
00:33Are you ready?
00:34Wow.
00:35I was on death's door and hit rock bottom.
00:38I got a place in a detox centre,
00:40and from there, I got into treatment.
00:42I went to college, and I now have a PhD in neuroscience.
00:46Nobody wakes up wanting to be addicted.
00:48There's nothing in it for that person
00:50other than alleviating the pain they're feeling.
00:52In this series, I'll be talking to scientists, experts,
00:56and people with lived experience of behavioural addictions,
00:58like gambling and gaming, and even your phone.
01:01I'll also be talking about substance addictions,
01:03like drugs and alcohol.
01:04My main goal for the day would be just, like, just a drink.
01:11That's what gambling done to me just took me to a dark place
01:13where I thought there was no way out and there was no escaping.
01:15There was a period where I would walk past that liquor cabinet,
01:18you know, at 9, 10 a.m., and I'd be drawn by it.
01:23This series will challenge what you think you know about addiction.
01:26Oh, yeah, hold on for a second.
01:27He's in recovery.
01:28You need to be sad.
01:29Put on a sad face.
01:30Be depressed.
01:31Cry and complain about your mental health.
01:33No.
01:34Most families are impacted by some sort of addiction,
01:37but change is possible.
01:38I thought there was no hope for me.
01:41I'm a million miles away from where I was.
01:42No one person is immune to addiction.
01:46It can happen to anybody.
01:47That's your biggest trauma.
01:49Okay.
01:50My trauma as a kid was...
02:00Take five.
02:02I think I will.
02:03I'll take two minutes.
02:04That's what I'm going to do.
02:05Give me two minutes.
02:25I'm delighted to be joined by Dr. Brian Enney, who is a neuroscientist.
02:31But he has a remarkable story of 15 years of battling heroin addiction.
02:38It nearly lost him his life.
02:42Just tell me how bad your addiction got.
02:46I'd wake up, I would have taken probably five or six sleeping tablets
02:49just so I could operate that day.
02:51Like, I'd take them in the morning.
02:53I'd take...
02:54Sorry, as you were getting up, you'd take sleeping tablets?
02:56Yeah.
02:56I'd do my methadone after the tablets.
02:58I'd get to work.
02:59So I'd need to take the edge off that.
03:01So I'd do a couple of lines of heroin.
03:04Sometimes I'd go in and do a couple of lines in the bathroom
03:07just to take the edge off to get through work.
03:09And would you not be as high as a kite in the afternoon in the office?
03:13No.
03:13I was more sick than...
03:15So one thing that I think is a bit misunderstood with people with drug addiction,
03:19when they see them sort of like a little bit comatose and really struggling,
03:24they think they're stoned and high.
03:26Usually that's sickness.
03:27They're just very unwell.
03:29Then I'd leave work, I'd get home and drive myself into oblivion.
03:32a bottle of vodka, more tablets, more heroin.
03:35So I would just be managing, just trying to get through the day.
03:40Addiction is a complex physical, psychological, physiological, mental phenomena.
03:45It could be substances, cocaine, crystal meth, alcohol, nicotine.
03:51It could also be sex, gambling, shopping, eating, gaming.
03:55You ask anybody, what does it do for you in the short term?
03:59People will say, it numbs me.
04:02It soothes the pain.
04:03And if you don't know why the pain, look at people's lives.
04:12Spencer Mathews is best known for his reality TV role in Made in Chelsea,
04:16and is married to Irish businesswoman, Vogue Williams,
04:19and is related to royalty.
04:20He has a unique take on his problem drinking.
04:23I used to drink every single day, probably from the age of 15,
04:27all the way up to 30.
04:29I drank every day, quite often to excess.
04:32How are you getting on, mate?
04:32Spencer, great to see you, man.
04:33How are you?
04:34There was a period where I would walk past our liquor cabinet,
04:37you know, at 9, 10 a.m., and I'd be drawn by it, you know?
04:41And I would sometimes open the liquor cabinet,
04:45and I'd just bang a shot of tequila or something,
04:47put the bottle back, walk past it.
04:49You know, that's in the morning.
04:50And, you know, Vogue would say, like, have you had a drink today?
04:53And I'd say, I'd say, no, of course I haven't.
04:54Why are you asking me if I've had a drink today?
04:56Almost aggressive back.
04:57The very first time I met a guy called Chip Summers,
05:00who was the bloke who sobered me up for the first time,
05:03and he looked at me and he went,
05:05he said, have you had a drink today?
05:07I said, no, because I hadn't,
05:08because I knew I was meeting this guy
05:09who's going to be assessing my drinking problem.
05:11Yeah.
05:12And I hadn't.
05:14And he said, how much did you drink last night?
05:17He said, a couple of glasses of whiskey and, you know, bits and bobs.
05:19And he was like, you absolutely stink.
05:22He's like, you stink of whiskey.
05:24And he literally looked at me and he said, when we finish this meeting
05:27and you leave, I'm going to have to open the windows in here
05:30so that my next client doesn't think that I've been drinking.
05:33That's how bad you smell.
05:34Wow.
05:35So he said to me, I don't want you to drink alcohol for the next seven days.
05:39He challenged me, right?
05:41Which I loved.
05:42Yeah.
05:42Like, I love a challenge.
05:43I'm really competitive.
05:45Yeah, yeah.
05:45And he knew that.
05:47He, like, he summed me up, right?
05:49So he made me feel like shit.
05:50And then he challenged me.
05:52And he did it on purpose because he's really good at his job.
05:54Smell it.
05:55Yeah, yeah.
05:55And I left and I was like, I'll show him.
05:57Yeah.
05:58And all of a sudden it became about showing him.
05:59You know, not doing it for me.
06:01It was doing it for him.
06:02How would you see yourself?
06:03In recovery, recovered or never there?
06:07What am I?
06:08I don't think I'm in recovery, to be honest.
06:11If I felt like having a drink, I would have a drink.
06:13I'm not, it doesn't frighten me anymore.
06:16I wouldn't, I don't, I don't need to drink in.
06:19Just take over.
06:19I don't need to drink in secrecy.
06:21I don't, I don't need to hide it.
06:22You know, like if I, if I fancy a glass of wine with my wife, I'll have one.
06:26Yeah.
06:27She won't care.
06:28You know, she, she wouldn't care.
06:29It's kind of, we've gone through it all and come out the other side.
06:33And it feels good to have that element of control.
06:37Something that I've come across again and again, it was definitely a part of my own journey,
06:41was there was a trauma there for me.
06:43And I know your, your brother passed.
06:45I think, how old were you today?
06:46I was 10.
06:47Yeah.
06:47Obviously you've taught about that.
06:48Do you think that played a role?
06:50You could say that it had an impact on my drinking, but I've never felt comfortable blaming
06:55Blame, yeah.
06:56Mike's death for my behavior.
06:58You know, I was a hedonist.
06:59I, I, I loved going out.
07:01I loved drinking.
07:02I loved being the, the, the life and soul of the party.
07:05So, you know, a lot of this behavior is, is on me.
07:09Vogue always references that I didn't cry at the birth of any of our kids.
07:12Like that's not to say that that experience wasn't moving for me.
07:15I just, I physically, I physically find it difficult to cry.
07:19I have therapy every so often.
07:21And he said that there's, there's all kinds of ways that we can unlock that.
07:24But I've never bothered to be honest.
07:25I don't think it's that, I don't think it's that important that I would be crying all the time either.
07:29But I'm, I'm quite hardened in that sense.
07:33And sometimes I wish I wasn't.
07:36Like Spencer, I've struggled with my emotional connection and it's something I work on all of the time.
07:48Life is a contact sport.
07:51It's our connection with other human beings.
07:54We need to give them a hug.
07:55We need to shake people's hands.
07:57We need to create memories and have experiences with the people in our lives.
08:02There's some fabulous work going on at the moment.
08:05They found an area of the brain.
08:06It's like the social homeostatic area of the brain.
08:09Back in the parts of our brain called the Raffae nucleus.
08:12And it's basically this area of the brain releases dopamine when we feel socially isolated and disconnected.
08:19So when we're feeling lonely and isolated,
08:23it sends out dopamine to motivate you to go and seek other people.
08:28If you're not very in touch and in tune with your own body,
08:31you might think you need drugs.
08:33You need something else.
08:34You're craving something that's missing and you mightn't even know.
08:37So we need to actively go out and connect with other human beings.
08:41Whether that's existing friendships, whether it's spending more time with your kids.
08:46For many, many people, it's spending less time in work.
08:50The world is pulling us away from where we need to be.
08:54And that's our connection with other human beings.
08:57Four years ago, I was sitting on the bridges and hiding inside bushes.
09:03I was highly addicted to drugs.
09:05Very mentally ill.
09:07I didn't see a way out.
09:08Get action!
09:10Chris Connolly runs five kilometres every day as part of his recovery.
09:14He's going to run five kilometres in each of the 32 counties over 32 days to raise awareness about mental
09:20health and addiction.
09:25When my grandmother died, I just felt like I was robbed of so much time, Ra.
09:30And I felt like I was robbed of the one person that had truly loved me.
09:35And it was a struggle, you know.
09:37It was a struggle, especially trying to grow up and deal with that.
09:41And then deal with the acne scars.
09:42And then seeing all the other lads around me then getting girlfriends.
09:47And nobody wanted to go out with me, you know.
09:48I was skinny.
09:50I had bad acne all over me.
09:52I was completely depressed because I just lost my grandmother.
09:56And it took me a long time to realise that drugs made me feel good.
10:01They weren't good for me.
10:05Welcome back to 5K with Chris.
10:08Today, I'm delighted to have beside me the duck, Brian Penny.
10:13The duck.
10:14I'll never get used for it, Chris.
10:15Thank God.
10:16I struggle with it.
10:17I really do.
10:18I wasn't with this conversation, man.
10:20Thank you, Brian.
10:21I grew up in Five Mile Mountains.
10:23A block of flats in Dublin A.
10:26Filled with good community.
10:28People who are together.
10:29We're also on the flip side.
10:31People who are getting up to no good.
10:33People selling drugs.
10:35People who are taking drugs on the stairs.
10:37People who rob cars.
10:38People killing each other.
10:40It was a very, very scary place to grow up.
10:47I always wanted to try and be someone.
10:49And I always wanted people to tinker with someone.
10:51Just so I could fit in with a group that, to be honest with you,
10:54I didn't even want to fit in with.
10:56I was just doing that because it would make me feel safe.
10:59It would make me feel not less than anymore.
11:01I'd feel like I was part of something, you know.
11:04I find this specifically for young men as well.
11:06And young teenagers, male teenagers.
11:08There's a sense of ego.
11:09So you don't want to admit that you feel weak.
11:11You feel anxious.
11:12So go to the gym.
11:14Let's put on the bravado.
11:15And the drugs can go hand in hand with that.
11:17You start going in.
11:18You're trying to get the muscles in the gym.
11:20Next minute I was taking steroids.
11:22I was sticking needles into my arse.
11:24I was getting attention from women.
11:26And where's the best way to meet women in nightclubs?
11:29In nightclubs, taking cocaine.
11:31Next minute the cocaine doesn't stop.
11:33Then before you know it, then you're smoking.
11:34I was personally smoking crack.
11:36And then you're just like, how did this all happen from me
11:39just wanting to go out and get girls?
11:41I often think of addiction as it's a hole in your soul.
11:43It's filling that hole in a way that really, truly fills you up.
11:47Yeah.
11:48And sometimes I can feel the hole.
11:50It still does be there, you know what I mean?
11:52I can fill that with food, you know?
11:55I used to fill it with pornography.
11:56It can be sex.
11:57It can be gambling.
11:58It can be anything, you know what I mean?
12:00I became obsessed about the human mind.
12:02And I kind of did switch addictions.
12:04Yeah.
12:04Was that the same for you with getting healthy,
12:06the running and the things you're doing?
12:07That's one thing that drives me mad.
12:09Because people try to put you down when you get sober,
12:11when you get clean, like, and they're like,
12:13oh, but you're only swapping this for another.
12:15But the reality of it is, I'm an addict.
12:17You're an addict.
12:18I have the tendencies to act and behave in ways
12:21that are very obsessive.
12:23And that can either be a course or it can be a gift.
12:26And if you navigate that in the correct way
12:28and in a productive way, in a healthy way,
12:31and a way that's filled with love, joy, and happiness,
12:34well, then you can conquer the world.
12:36There was a point when I was in treatment
12:37that my sister had wrote in a letter.
12:40And in the letter, I said, look, Christopher,
12:42if you can't do it for you, please do it for your daughter Lucy.
12:45Because one day she's going to need you to walk her down the hill.
12:48And then I realised, this goes much deeper than me, you know.
12:52My daughter needs me.
12:53And whether I don't care whether I live or die, she does.
12:56So that was when I started to realise that if I don't want to do it for me,
13:01I'm going to do it for her.
13:02And then before I knew it then, I just started to get my self-worth back.
13:05I started to get my self-confidence back.
13:07I started to get my self-belief back.
13:08Which then enabled me then to progress more and more.
13:12Who would have been able to say, a couple of years ago,
13:14we'd be two lads sitting on a log having a conversation like this?
13:20If you have fewer resources, you know,
13:22any kind of challenge that you're faced with is more difficult
13:25because you don't have the same level of resources as others,
13:28maybe, to deal with it.
13:30But there is also these issues of things like trauma in childhood.
13:34I mean, one of the really interesting pieces of new research looks at epigenetics.
13:37And these are changes that can happen to our genes.
13:41So chemical modifications that can happen during the course of our life.
13:45But we know that these can happen more frequently
13:48and at a greater intensity with people who maybe have suffered from stress or trauma.
13:54And while this might impact on the behaviour,
13:57it also reinforces the addiction and makes it harder to stop.
14:01So many of these things are kind of cyclical as well.
14:05Research shows a big link between mental health and addiction.
14:08Anxiety was a big trigger for me.
14:10I'm meeting Professor Ian Robertson, who was a leading expert on stress and anxiety.
14:15The thing about anxiety is, as you will well know,
14:17it's a horrible state to be in a chronic state of anxiety.
14:21It's really uncomfortable.
14:23It's distressing.
14:25It's painful.
14:26And so if you can find something that reduces that,
14:31that acts as a very powerful reward or reinforcement in the brain.
14:37For some people, it could be pornography.
14:39Yeah.
14:39For some people, it could be alcohol.
14:42For some people, it's another type of drug.
14:46And it's all about staving off the horrible withdrawal feelings,
14:50the negative symptoms, which are mixed up with anxiety.
14:53I drank a lot of alcohol in addiction.
14:55But it got to the stage where anything that was stimulating caused anxiety.
15:00And alcohol can be a hangover can be a massive cause of anxiety.
15:03So for some people, they might drink alcohol because they enjoy it.
15:06They like it.
15:07Yeah.
15:07And then if that becomes a bad habit, you can generate the anxiety.
15:10And then you're on that wheel again.
15:12You're dead right, Brian.
15:13I mean, many years ago, I worked with a lot of people with alcohol problems.
15:16Yeah.
15:16And what happens is, in the addiction kind of path, is you maybe drink alcohol,
15:28and not only does it get rid of these negative feelings of anxiety that you have,
15:33but it also makes you feel good.
15:34Yeah.
15:35But then, because of tolerance going up, because you need more and more to have the same effect,
15:41because the brain is adapting.
15:44So it says, okay, right, I'll prepare.
15:45And it gets better and better to adapting to the stuff,
15:48which means you get less of a cake.
15:50So you have to take more.
15:52But eventually, that gets to a point where, as you said,
15:55there's very little reward anymore.
15:57And so they worsen your anxiety and worsen the need to take the stuff.
16:02And that's why, you know, staying off a substance requires you to mind yourself,
16:11as you will have learned.
16:12Yeah.
16:13Mind yourself really well.
16:14Try and minimize the stressors in your life.
16:18Try and avoid being sucked to reactivate these learned circuits that trigger the addiction.
16:24Traumatic memories and conditioned responses, they're always there.
16:29Yeah.
16:29They're just inhibited.
16:31It's hard to describe how difficult it is to get off drugs.
16:35Things got very bad in my life.
16:37I lost my job and I knew I had to give up or die.
16:41I couldn't get a detox bed, so I decided to do it at home myself,
16:44which I wouldn't recommend.
16:46My younger brother, James, was with me.
16:48My eyes were rolling in the back of me head.
16:52I was squeezing and convulsing on the floor.
16:56I had pushed my teeth, drove my teeth up through my tongue, through the convulsions.
17:01And when I slumped, there was blood pouring out of me mouth and James thought I was dead.
17:07I vividly remember waking up in Blanchardstown Hospital.
17:11I became absolutely absorbed by this red fire extinguisher that was hanging on the wall.
17:18And I had this strange realization that I didn't really know what this object was.
17:24And I began looking around the rest of the room, trying to label my environment.
17:29And my brain was not working.
17:32I remember just thinking to myself, oh my God, that's brain damage.
17:38You've destroyed your brain.
17:40After that, I did get into detox.
17:42And it was there I met Professor Johanna Iris who was carrying out a brain study.
17:47She is an expert in addiction and holds the only addiction-specific academic post in Ireland.
17:52When I first met him, Brian was in the final trough of detox.
17:57Lots of cramps, lots of nausea.
18:00So he was unwell at the time.
18:02But I suppose there was a massive enthusiasm in him to kind of want to be involved in the research
18:08and a curiosity.
18:09But I think there was an underlying fear of what have I done?
18:15And have I done irreparable damage?
18:20Something must have resonated deeply with me around the brain science and around psychology and going to college.
18:28Because I went back to college.
18:30And when I finished my degree, I connected with Johanna again.
18:33And when I started my PhD in the Institute of Neuroscience, Johanna offered me a job to teach the neuroscience
18:40of addiction in Trinity College Dublin.
18:43So it was a beautiful circular moment.
18:45And I'd be good friends with Johanna today.
18:49I'm meeting her and my PhD supervisor, Dr. Robert Whelan, to get a look at my brain.
18:54How are you?
18:55Very well. Great to see you again.
18:56I know.
18:58Exciting times. I'm looking forward to this MRI.
19:00I know. I'm really looking forward to it.
19:03Today's scan can't tell definitively how recovered I am.
19:06But group research can track how brains do change over time once someone gives up drugs.
19:12Brian, everything okay there?
19:14Yeah.
19:15All right.
19:15So we are good to go.
19:16So we're going to start the scan.
19:19The addiction is something that I've only ever wanted to work in.
19:23And where I will, I imagine, end my day.
19:27So it's something I'm incredibly passionate about.
19:31I come from the north inner city.
19:34I come from a family that's been greatly affected by addiction.
19:39Unfortunately, lost loved ones through addiction.
19:42So I suppose from a very early age, doing something that would help people access treatment was a big part
19:52of my plan.
19:53Brian, so we are nearly there.
19:55So we'll finish in a minute, okay?
19:57And I'll take you out.
19:57It looks fine.
20:04So this is just your resting state scan.
20:06So this is when we ask you just to not think of anything in particular.
20:08Just lie back, close your eyes.
20:10And we can use this kind of scan to look at how different parts of your brain are connecting together.
20:15So maybe you're worried a bit differently, are you?
20:20The neurotransmitter that's most involved in addiction is dopamine.
20:23In the brain, you can actually see that substance use might start activating the brain areas down here, the ventral
20:30striatum, so the dopamine areas of the brain.
20:33But if people do it for years and years, it actually moves up to the dorsal striatum up here, and
20:37that's the habit system.
20:39So it's like a habit learning gone wrong.
20:41We've not evolved to handle the amount of dopamine that's released by substances of abuse like methamphetamine or heroin like
20:48that.
20:49So like if a chocolate cake is a score of five, then something like methamphetamine or heroin is a hundred.
20:56Yeah.
20:56I mean, do you feel that there was a compulsion?
20:58That didn't even come into it.
20:59It was just going to happen.
21:01Compulsion is like you're fighting something.
21:02There was just no fight.
21:04I completely surrendered to the fact that I needed these drugs to numb this pain.
21:09And it was, I was like I was living in a different realm that nothing else could enter that sphere.
21:16Okay.
21:16Yeah.
21:17That is addiction.
21:19Yeah.
21:20The study that you had taken part in, we mentioned the fact that we were looking at a collective of
21:26similar people with a similar experience and looking at whether there was damage over time.
21:33And we found that.
21:34And I suppose as we move on and we talked about the potential for recovery and that's something that's really
21:40in its infancy that we really don't know about collectively.
21:43If we look at the Valco study from many years ago and, you know, Rob talked about dopamine and the
21:51implication of dopamine.
21:52And if we look here, this is a normal brain.
21:56The dopamine is quite visibly there.
21:58You can see here that this is the brain of a cocaine user after a month of abstinence.
22:04Now, very faintly, you can see this level of activity emerge.
22:08You might really have to look deeply, but you can see it.
22:11It's almost orange.
22:12And then as we move to the four months, we see then that level is again getting better.
22:18And as people start to recover and get well and as like someone like yourself even get better than well.
22:26So get quite into their health, quite into nature, building on positive relationships.
22:32That's all the good stuff that comes with recovery.
22:35And I think it's really ultimately what people are trying to drive towards.
22:39So, you know, as we move on and we see that level of change, that is incredibly helpful.
22:44Yeah, definitely.
22:46Do you want to see your image from 2013, Brian?
22:48I do and I don't.
22:49Yeah.
22:50Let's see.
22:51See if you recognize this guy.
22:52You ready?
22:54Wow.
22:55Wow.
22:55That's you.
22:56This is the actual scan that Johanna did with you in 2013.
23:01That's actually quite scary.
23:03Like it's like from an alien film or something like that.
23:07I just looked like someone that was so unwell.
23:13It still scares me today when I think back of that picture.
23:17But I just wanted to be somebody else.
23:20I wanted to get healthier.
23:22I wanted to get fitter.
23:23I wanted to sharp my mind.
23:24I wanted to eat well.
23:26It was another...
23:27It was another...
23:30Another step on the journey that just told me I needed to get down a completely different path.
23:43I was so proud of where I came from.
23:46I listened to gangster rap.
23:47I looked up to the older lads in the estate that would sell drugs and they seemed so cool to
23:53me at the time.
23:54So when I went to a school down on the Navin Road where some of the lads came from Castlenock,
24:00Kiwamai, nicer areas I suppose.
24:03And they used the word skanger.
24:04They called me a skanger probably because of the runners I wore and the jackets I wore.
24:08But again, I was very proud of where I came from.
24:14This is the road where we used to play as kids.
24:18And we used to play into that gate and that gate over there.
24:22So I played football like literally eight hours a day from the time I was probably about eight until the
24:28time I was well into my teens before the drugs kicked in.
24:32But there used to be a laneway going all the way along that road there.
24:36And that's where a lot of the craziness happens, let's say.
24:44I started dabbling when I was 14.
24:47We'd do acid in the fields.
24:49We'd be taking tablets.
24:51We'd be smoking hash.
24:52I'd done heroin for the first time when I was 17.
24:55For several years, I used heroin once a month, then once a week.
25:02I was using more and more and more.
25:08But perhaps the most dangerous drug I ever done was petrol.
25:14After school, a gang of us, we'd get a euro or pounds worth of petrol at the time and we'd
25:19go up to the fields that surrounded the area.
25:22I always remember there was this noise up in the sky.
25:25We called it a wah-wah.
25:27So you would feel this noise in the sky or hear this noise in the sky.
25:30It was a very bizarre disassociation you had from your body and your mind.
25:36I can only describe it like a void, like this kind of a vortex spinning around.
25:41And I felt like I was there for so long.
25:45I start having the sense of, oh, my God, what is this?
25:49This isn't real.
25:49What's going on?
25:50And I started thinking, am I dead?
25:52And when I jumped up, it frightened the life out of me.
25:56And I remember running over, grabbing the bottle, putting a lighter to it, burning the petrol.
26:02And I don't think that was the last time I'd done petrol, but it was one of the last times
26:06it really frightened me.
26:14I work with families dealing with the carnage that comes from somebody in active addiction.
26:21I get that, all right?
26:23And I empathise 100% with people who are in that situation.
26:26It is despair, loneliness, intense hurt and pain.
26:31It invokes feelings of utter helplessness and rage in family members who have to deal with this.
26:39I am the second eldest of four kids.
26:43When I think back of the positions that I put my family through, specifically my younger brother and my younger
26:50sister, they seen me slowly destroy my life.
26:56My own addiction was taken over, so where I was the big brother that looked out for my sister, now
27:02I was just the big brother that was looking out for his own needs, his own wants.
27:09I would have really looked up to you and really looked, kind of, um, wants to kind of, you know,
27:15be around when, like, your friends are in the house and stuff like that.
27:18You know, I'd really want to kind of be seeing what's happening and things, where, and then you'd have other
27:22friends in the house that would come over.
27:24And, you know, I always wanted to be like, what's going on? What's Brian doing?
27:27That's what the drugs took for me, was that relationships, what could have been.
27:32I know I brought a lot of challenges to the family when I was in the depths of addiction.
27:35But I think what's really strange, I brought a lot of challenges to the family in my recovery, especially in
27:40my early recovery.
27:41And I had the gall to actually send letters to the family to say, like, I'm better.
27:47And I know I sent you the letter. I actually sent you a letter saying, I think the gist, I
27:50know you've ripped it up and burnt it or whatever.
27:52It's gone.
27:52It's gone.
27:53But the gist of that letter was, um, I'm at the finding a solution to life.
27:58So it's a bit hard to explain the letter.
28:00When I get out, I'll share it with you and I'll fix it.
28:02Like that must have been like, oh my God, after all the pain I caused.
28:07It's just like, I wrote one back, but it was like when I was writing, it was kind of like,
28:11really quick.
28:12And it was like, fuck you.
28:14Like, you know, it was, you've no idea.
28:16Like you've no idea what you have done or how hard this has been for everybody or how much we've
28:23all given.
28:23That's what so was so mad about it.
28:26And it was so, so frustrating to just even be around then as well.
28:30Like, you know, kind of coming out and, you know, with the strawberries asking us, you know, have you ever
28:35really tasted?
28:36Truly tasted a strawberry.
28:37Yeah, I fucking had strawberries, Brian, you know.
28:40So it's, um, yeah, it's really, it was, it was, it was quite infuriating.
28:46I know you've had your own struggles.
28:47I don't know how you'd start to talk about your struggles with alcohol.
28:50I'll never forget the day you pulled up on the Delwood roads.
28:53I remember that.
28:55I massively remember that.
28:56Yeah.
28:57And I ran into the door.
28:58Yeah.
28:58I was like, shit, I'm in trouble.
29:00Drunk.
29:00You were in the 14th.
29:01Yeah, I was on your kids.
29:03I got really angry that day, didn't I?
29:05You did?
29:05I was really angry.
29:06That's fear.
29:06That's the fear coming in because I obviously could see where it's going, like.
29:09It wasn't a lot of the time I was actually drinking.
29:12But I was constantly thinking, when is the next drink?
29:15Can I have a drink this evening?
29:16Is it going to be tomorrow?
29:17How many can I have?
29:18Is the sun out?
29:19What is the classic alcoholic?
29:21I don't know what that is.
29:22Yeah.
29:22And I don't think you really fit the bill of what the classic alcoholic looks like.
29:26Was there a moment that was just the end for you?
29:28We had a small gathering here on New Year's Eve.
29:30But I promised the kids, I was like, we'll go and climb the sugarloaf on New Year's Day.
29:35This is going to be a great start to the New Year.
29:37And I love hiking and I want everything to do with hiking.
29:40So this would be a great start.
29:41And the kids were all excited.
29:43So, unfortunately, Mammy drank too much the night before and got up on New Year's Day.
29:47And I couldn't lift my head off the pillow.
29:48I was just so sick.
29:50And I said, I'm actually done.
29:52I cannot do this anymore.
29:54The guilt, the shame.
29:56There was just too many big feelings and big emotions and everything kind of fell together.
30:02Like I was working for probably four or five years, you know, doing and reading different books and doing different
30:08programs, like online programs and stuff.
30:11But it just all fell together then.
30:13That last hangover on New Year's Day in 2023.
30:16I was like, I am officially done.
30:20Done.
30:20Yeah.
30:20And we're done.
30:21So like, like that, that full circle moment for me, like I spent the year, I got, like it was
30:25a full year sober.
30:27And then we went to climb the sugarloaf.
30:29Having that moment.
30:30And I was so emotional, like just walking up there.
30:33I was like, done the year.
30:34I have no intentions of having a drink again.
30:36And like the boys were just so happy then as well.
30:39Well, they weren't actually on the way up.
30:40They were giving out.
30:41Yeah, giving out.
30:42But we were really happy when we got to the top.
30:46Historically, it's always thought that men were much more likely to have substance addiction.
30:50But actually, what we're seeing is those numbers are equalizing a little bit more now.
30:54But then we need to think about the impact for women.
30:57For example, women with childcare responsibilities might find it harder to attend clinics or therapy sessions.
31:03And we need to address it from all of those complex angles, whether it's the neuroscience or the social aspects.
31:12Kilmine's Ashley House was the first residential centre to let mothers bring their young children with them while undergoing treatment
31:18for addiction.
31:21Hello! How are you?
31:23Oh my goodness.
31:24Oh, gracious!
31:27Suzanne Tackaberry is a recent graduate.
31:31This doesn't feel like a treatment centre whatsoever.
31:33I spent the summer here with my children.
31:36And like this courtyard is like the heart of Ashley House, I suppose, with the children.
31:41You know, sunshine and we would have a little bouncy castle out.
31:45We would have a swimming pool.
31:47It is a treatment centre and you do the work, taking that away.
31:51It's very, very, very, very, very, very hard programme to do.
31:55But in terms of bringing your children, like, I mean, that's vital for women in recovery to be able to
32:01come here,
32:01knowing that their children are safe and that they're being provided with at home.
32:05And, you know, actually going to get upset because that is what was really a key turning point for me,
32:12that I could bring my children with me here.
32:15And, but we were happy.
32:16We were so happy here.
32:19Hey, Suzanne.
32:20Hi, Brian. How are you?
32:21Lovely to meet you.
32:21How are you? I've got you too.
32:23We're in here.
32:24Eight and a half months we spent in here.
32:26Eight and a half months.
32:26Wow.
32:27This was where I was with my two little girls.
32:31Grand, big space, isn't it?
32:32Yeah, I hung that. I found that picture in the shed when I came.
32:35That's lovely.
32:36And I hung it on the wall.
32:37I was just trying to make it as homely and comfortable as I could, you know, for the girls.
32:44I think the most vital thing here for Ashley House is that it has a fully staffed creche on site
32:50that allows my children to go in and for me to go into group and do the work on myself.
32:54The option for me to come into treatment without somewhere like Ashley House with a creche on site,
32:59they would have had to go into care.
33:01That must have been like such a fear for you of losing your kids to the system.
33:05If I had remained in my addiction, it remained in the way I was gone, my children were going to
33:09be taken.
33:10And the way I see it, rightly so.
33:16I got pregnant at 15 with my eldest daughter now, she's 27.
33:21I was only a child having a child.
33:23Yeah.
33:23Well, fast forward, Louise got kind of into her teens, maybe 13, 14, and off I would go out with
33:30my friend, you know.
33:32But I never wanted to come home, you know.
33:35The ecstasy was there.
33:36Yeah.
33:37The coke, that's when the coke came in.
33:39As you know, with drug dealers, it's only a phone call away, it's delivered to the door, you know.
33:44Yeah.
33:44Even though the off-licence and the pub and the alcohol end will run out.
33:49The drugs cause something always there.
33:51It's always there.
33:51So when did the wheels start coming off?
33:53Work was really affected.
33:54I, I, cause now it was the Monday not going in and the Tuesday.
33:58I'd still be in bed on the Tuesday.
34:01Hey, don't want to face the world.
34:03Yeah.
34:03If I, if I could stay in this room for the rest of me life with the curtains drawn.
34:07And the duvet over me head, that's where I'm going to stay, you know.
34:11That was about eight years ago.
34:13And I got recovery for two years.
34:15Wow.
34:16With cocaine anonymous.
34:17And slowly but surely I thought that I could drink again.
34:20I said the cocaine was the problem.
34:21It wasn't the alcohol.
34:23To drink, I'd be able to drink.
34:25And eventually I took the sip.
34:26I took two or three sips.
34:29And obviously the rest of the bottle was drank.
34:32And that was it.
34:33I was kind of back.
34:34And then that continued.
34:35And then I, I thought having another child, which would be good.
34:42So I had two.
34:44And that's when it really, there was like the stress of having two young children.
34:48But I would be falling over, to be honest, you know.
34:51I'd be passing out.
34:53Not being able to do aunt for them.
34:54Not being able to enjoy them.
34:55Don't look at me.
34:56Don't play with me.
34:57Don't ask me aunt.
34:58And is that, did you find Ashley House soon after?
35:01Like somewhere that could help you look after your kid?
35:02Eight Lynn and Ballymun is the name of the place.
35:05I was seeing a counsellor there.
35:06And they recommended Ashley House.
35:10I graduated, obviously, from Clule Mine last week or two weeks ago.
35:14So I don't know where my life will go or what it will do.
35:19But I'm very much going to keep it in the day, Brian.
35:21Because that's what I have to do.
35:23But I enjoy keeping it in the day, you know.
35:26Yeah.
35:26I do.
35:27And I am.
35:28I'm truly happy.
35:29I'm very, very grateful for Ashley House.
35:33And for what it has given me and my children and my family.
35:41The amount of harm that's happening, in particular with alcohol.
35:45You have a binge drinker.
35:47You have a secretive drinker.
35:49You have some people who will just drink at weekends.
35:53And will have no problem during the week, but drink incredibly destructively at weekends.
35:58And it's also very convenient for people to think, well, I'm not that.
36:02Because I'm not the person, you know, in the gutter or a stereotypical person with a brown bag on a
36:09street.
36:10Nobody knows when they drink if they're going to become an alcoholic.
36:1680% of people will dodge that bullet.
36:1920% of people won't.
36:29Nicola is in the latter stages of treatment for alcohol addiction at Tiglin.
36:34A faith-based residential treatment centre in Wicklow.
36:38I'm working in the bakery with the Rise coffee shop here in Greystones.
36:42To dip back in to reality and to life.
36:46And reality would have been a thing that was scary to me.
36:51Like having a purpose and having like a daily routine, you know, it's a must.
36:56It really is, you know, to get up in the morning and know where you're going and what you're doing.
37:00And, you know, that you're on a timetable.
37:04You're not just like floating along like I did in addiction.
37:10I found alcohol when I was a teenager.
37:14And this was a crutch and helped me with my confidence.
37:17It made me feel complete.
37:19I could do anything.
37:20I was a very dogmatic, argumentative, just not a nice person to be around.
37:33Slowly but surely, like people in my group of friends would be approaching me and saying, Nicola, this is a
37:40problem.
37:40They were very, very good people and good friends.
37:43But I lost them because I didn't want to listen.
37:46Though in latter years, I wouldn't have had any company.
37:50I would have been just me and the alcohol.
37:53I would have had, you know, a few suicide attempts.
37:58My partner lived in Dublin and I lived in Meath.
38:01It was the second year of lockdown.
38:04He took his own life.
38:05I froze my emotions and I didn't want to deal with it.
38:12I drank very heavily for, I suppose, the guts of a year and a half before I came into Tiglan.
38:21My main goal for the day would be just like, just to drink, there was no other goal.
38:27Which is so sad when I say it like that, you know, for a 50 odd year old woman.
38:33It's just, was that really it? Yeah, it was.
38:38Every relapse is worse, you know.
38:40You hear that, but believe me, it's true.
38:44And it's harder to come back from every one of them.
38:46Very hard.
38:51Treatment has really helped Nicola better understand herself and her addiction.
38:55Having this insight is key for long-term sobriety.
38:58I always felt different.
39:01Nobody ever made me different or made me feel different.
39:03You know, I couldn't, I wouldn't do a blame game.
39:07But I always felt that, you know, I felt not good enough.
39:10And then when I came to adulthood, I, I wasn't equipped for reality.
39:16Do you know, I wasn't equipped for life.
39:18And I knew that I'd say deep down.
39:21So in order to carry on, I drank, I did the best I could say in my twenties and my
39:27thirties.
39:28And then I started to like, like really not, not, not, you know, not be able to, to, to face
39:36life, you know.
39:38I find when, when people struggle with that sense of not good enough, I don't feel good enough.
39:44It's nearly a disconnect with other people where you feel like you don't belong.
39:48You know, I'm say in my, my personal, I had three sisters and they all attended college.
39:55Okay.
39:55I didn't.
39:56Yeah.
39:56There was loads of different.
39:57They all got married.
39:58I didn't.
39:59They all had children.
40:00I didn't.
40:00So it was like, oh, and then I started to limit myself in other areas, you know, that I, I
40:07wasn't intelligent.
40:08I couldn't go to college.
40:09I couldn't study.
40:10And I couldn't feel like they felt they were very, very hurt and traumatized, you know, and it interfered with
40:17their lives, you know, and with them growing up, with them having children of their own, with them trying to
40:23have careers, you know.
40:25Oh, and they had to listen and look at all this as well, you know.
40:28Yeah.
40:28And it is selfish because I did not care.
40:31You know, the word sorry, you can throw it about, bandy it about, but like they want to see the
40:36work, you know, and they want to see, they want to see you being better and want to see you
40:41well.
40:41I want to see you socializing with family and not ringing up and saying, oh, I can't make it.
40:47It's going to be a slow process.
40:48You know, I don't expect a red carpet to be thrown out for me or anything like that.
40:52Yeah.
40:52It's going to be like, have to be built again.
40:55And that's the way it is, you know, and acceptance is the game on my part.
41:00But I have to accept that that's the way it is, you know, but not lose sight of that.
41:05I will again, you know, have restoration with them all.
41:15I can relate so much to Nicola's story, especially how her addiction impacted her family.
41:21This is my younger brother, James.
41:23Do you remember I used to bring you up the park when you were very young and I used to
41:26kick the ball real high in the air, make you head it.
41:28Head the ball, head the ball.
41:29You were afraid.
41:32Smashing your face.
41:32We still do that nowadays playing football.
41:38I wish I could take away the pain that they experienced.
41:45There's a sense of remorse there.
41:49I get it in my stomach even.
41:53This feeling of heaviness in my stomach that I wish I could change it.
41:57And I just hope today in the moment and going forward, I can more than make up for the pain
42:04that I brought them back then.
42:07I was naive at such a young age that I just never imagined that you would be caught out of
42:17drugs.
42:18Yeah.
42:19Until I heard from someone else around the estate who knew what was actually happening.
42:29And then I was saying, no, he wasn't.
42:31No way is he.
42:33No way is he.
42:34And then he started laughing and he said, you're having a clue, Jay.
42:39You're having a fucking clue how he is.
42:42I remember one time I walked into the room and you had the tinfoil and all.
42:50And then I was new straight away.
42:53I lost you like when I was 12 or 13.
42:59And I was gone always now.
43:00Yeah, yeah.
43:01Yeah.
43:02I had a very rough childhood, grown up cause, cause me stammer.
43:08And I was, I had fun of, I picked on.
43:16Cause there was one guy in the state who had tormented me for years and I never felt like
43:26I could come to you for, or help to ask him to stop it.
43:33But, yeah, well, kind of was bad now, but, yeah, it wasn't nice.
43:47I remember then, I would get something for me self, and I'd sit there having a couple of cans, a
43:58few joints, and then just sniffing me brains out.
44:02Coke.
44:03Yeah, yeah, Coke, just sniffing me brains out in the sitting room at 3 o'clock in the morning, phone
44:11off.
44:13But I knew, like, you were the one person that I could come to, and I actually said, look, I
44:22have a problem, I'm not right.
44:26And you helped me, got me a place in a treatment programme, and I'm five years sober now, to that
44:36day, five years, and I haven't looked back since I asked for help.
44:42It's funny, I know we're not hugging family, but I actually...
44:48I know, yeah, hugs are great.
44:50Yeah.
44:50I loved them.
44:51Yeah.
44:51I loved them.
44:52You should do it, ma.
44:53You should make our family thing now.
44:54You should, yeah.
44:56You should, yeah.
44:57When you see recovery in action, it's very hopeful.
45:01It's very heartening.
45:02And I suppose we've looked so long at it from, through the lens of disease and hopelessness and no way
45:09back, that then to flip the switch and see it in terms of that hopeful recovery and that second chance,
45:18it's terrific.
45:21Research has shown that exercise may reduce the risk of relapse for those in recovery.
45:25Today, Chris is in Carlow, running five kilometres to raise awareness about mental health and addiction.
45:31It's a very enjoyable experience.
45:33People just come out in droves and are just loving you and caring for you.
45:38A little girl had made me this bracelet, and then she made this for me daughter Lucy.
45:43And obviously, I didn't get to give this to Lucy just yet, but I will when I got home.
45:47Jamesy, what we'll do is we'll do the call-out video and then let everybody know we're here.
45:54Would that be alright?
45:55Right, jump in, bro.
45:57Today, we're in Carlow and we're really, really looking forward to it.
46:00We'll see everybody at the location down below at 12.30pm.
46:04Get out there, good afternoon.
46:05As always, get back to us.
46:07Yes.
46:09Absolute pleasure to meet you.
46:10Thanks so much.
46:11And as always, get back to us.
46:14And is this your favourite county ever done?
46:16I think I'm going to have to say yeah.
46:18Yeah!
46:21When you spend time with the right people, when you're having the right conversations,
46:25you never feel alienated.
46:27You never feel like a weirdo.
46:28You never feel like you're out of place.
46:29And you always feel like you belong.
46:31And for me, that's one of the biggest things in my life.
46:34I always felt like I didn't belong.
46:35And running makes me feel like I belong.
46:38Exercise makes me feel like I belong.
46:40Recovery makes me feel like I belong.
46:43And community and friendship makes me feel like I belong.
46:45So I want to tell you, thank you so much to each and every person.
46:48Because today, I feel like I belong.
46:50Woo!
46:51Yay!
46:52Thank you so much.
46:53What's the crap?
46:56How are you?
46:57How are you?
46:57How are you brother?
46:58I just knew I've got to come down, go for the run.
47:01Because what Chris is creating around the awareness is huge.
47:05To hope for other people who are struggling is absolutely huge.
47:11What Chris represents is this joy that he can be happy in recovery.
47:15People that are struggling with addiction can go back and give so much to society.
47:20And that can break down the stigma that is out there as well.
47:28People used to run away from me.
47:29I want people to run with me now.
47:33I ultimately hold every single decision I made to my own.
47:38Even though we're a product of our environment, we're responsible for our own decisions.
47:44I honestly think that I have the opportunity to give my daughter the life that I never had.
47:50Running has changed my life.
47:52And I don't class myself as a runner.
47:54It's just something that I use to manifest all my dreams, all my goals.
48:00Because when you start taking care of you, that's ultimately when you can start being the best version of you.
48:06And by being the best version of you, you take care of everyone else.
48:16I always found that you need an excuse in Ireland not to drink.
48:19But you don't need an excuse to drink.
48:22I would say, because of my drinking, definitely affected what you, the way you want.
48:29Definitely, do you know what I mean?
48:30I think one of the hardest things is when you have lots of people around you, but you still feel
48:35lonely.
48:37I'll take you done.
48:38Most of the time, we save lives when we use naloxone.
48:41Yes.
48:42But sometimes, unfortunately, you come across someone who's too far gone.
48:45It doesn't work, yes.
48:45You're always going to be a junkie to them.
48:47But you come and live in a day in my shoes and you know all about it.
49:18You're always going to stay in line.
49:35Transcription by CastingWords
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