00:10Hi, welcome back to Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris. Let's continue our discussion about the
00:15recent controversy around land ownership and the legal status of temples in Malaysia. What would
00:22a fair, lawful and sustainable approach look like for Malaysia in addressing this long-standing
00:28issue? Joining me on the show now is Latifa Koya who's the co-advisor to Lawyers for Liberty. Latifa,
00:35thank you for being on the show with me. I'm wondering whether you agree or think that whether
00:43at the heart of this controversy is a question of legality and if so, from a strictly legal
00:49standpoint, what determines whether a place of worship is quote-unquote lawful or unlawful in
00:57Malaysia? Okay, in fact, I would think it's actually otherwise. It's not actually about
01:04legalism, although they try to hide it by saying that, oh, it's not about racism, it's not about,
01:11you know, religious discrimination or whatever. It is actually the legality of the so-called temple,
01:20which is, you know, when someone wants to say something racist, they usually say, I'm not racist,
01:25but, and then they can carry on. So that seems to be the case. It's actually not only it's racist,
01:32it's hurtful, the way that they have been using the word kuil haram. The issue of whether a temple
01:42or for that matter, any other structure, you know, being built on places or not having license,
01:51it really depends. It's quite complex because it's not a straightforward situation where
01:57they are talking about all temples that are considered illegally built because there are many types of
02:07temples that are being built and what is the history or the background of it? That needs to be taken
02:12into account.
02:13So, of course, one is if a structure is built without permission, right? The local authority have not given them
02:22the building permit.
02:24So, just like if you're building a house, you still need permit to build on your own land a certain
02:31type or certain level of structure.
02:33If it is two storeys or three storeys, you need to get that building permit and it goes through some
02:39process.
02:41So, similarly, what is the question, the issue that we're talking about? Is it because they don't have building permit
02:47or are we talking about temples that are built on state land without permit?
02:56And then you'll have to also look at, are we talking about temples that are already on private land and
03:05are they considered what you, you know, the word they use now is pencerobo?
03:09Okay. So, I feel that the, the recent, um, uh, you know, outburst on, on, on the temples that they
03:21are talking about, somehow it is about temples that have been on state land who then have alienated that land
03:31to a private individual or a, or a organization.
03:35And eventually that owner, that owner, the new owner of the land claims that the temple is illegally there.
03:45So, who is the pencerobo actually?
03:48Because for example, let's start with the Masjid India temple, right?
03:53The Masjid India temple, which have been there.
03:56Okay. We, we shall not dispute whether it's a hundred years or decades or whatever.
04:00The point being, it was on state land and that the temple is visibly there.
04:08It's not like hidden. It's there clearly.
04:11And when the new owner took over, um, they knew very well that the temple was there.
04:18So you can't, uh, say that the temple is the pencerobo.
04:23In fact, that particular temple have asked for that land.
04:28They have offered to buy that land, but it was never given to them.
04:33And so, so when you sold that land to another person, that person now claims that this is my land.
04:40Yes. Legally speaking, yes.
04:42But you, can you actually say that they are pencerobo and, you know, haram in that sense?
04:47So Latifa, just to clarify, if, um, temples or places of worship are built on state land and the state
04:55does not actually do anything to address it for many years and decades, does that reflect a fault in the
05:02governance for the agency itself?
05:05Yes. Because what happens is this, it's not just about temples, but many structures are built on state land.
05:11And, uh, when the state is not using that land, all kinds of things can happen.
05:16People can, uh, sell, uh, open a shop, uh, kedai makan or whatever.
05:20And then over the years, they have actually given value to that piece of land.
05:25So it could be houses, it could be temples.
05:28And, you know, for a while they used to call those houses setinggan, which means, uh, they do those secara
05:34haram.
05:35Right. But in reality, they are actually pioneers of that land.
05:40And we used to then say that, do not call them, uh, uh, kampung haram or seninggan.
05:46They are actually peneroka bandar because they, they open that land.
05:50It could be bushes, it could be, you know, hutan or whatever.
05:53Then they basically, uh, uh, open that land, clear the land and gave value to that land because people are
06:01starting to live there.
06:02And then one day, one fine day, the government decided, eh, we need that part of that land.
06:08Right.
06:08And, um, so then they decide to, they will, they will plan to take it back.
06:14Now, all of that have to go through a process.
06:16So they can't just come and break that, the, the houses or in this case, a temple.
06:22You can't just come and break it because you need to give notice and monies have been spent.
06:27So you also have to compensate, uh, to the structures and whatever that you have spent on that particular building.
06:34So that has been the case for all the housing areas and kampungs and all that.
06:38So in the case of the temple, for example, um, not only you can't just break it because they have
06:46spent, um, money or to build structure or whatever.
06:49But you also have to take into consideration that it is a, uh, sacred, uh, uh, piece of structure for
06:57another, uh, uh, someone else's faith.
07:01So I think, you know, those so-called warriors who are going on this, uh, quill haram thing, I think
07:10they mistakenly understood the word of God.
07:14That's what I would say when they say that you cannot, uh, for Muslims, you cannot have idolatry, right?
07:21Uh, it is, uh, against Islam, but that is within your faith, within your religion.
07:27You don't go and break down somebody else's, uh, uh, religion.
07:30You don't do that.
07:32And, and that is why there's specific, uh, Quranic verses that talk about yours unto your faith and ours unto
07:39our faith.
07:40We'll believe in ours and you believe in yours.
07:43It's been repeated.
07:44And there's many that says don't mock others, other religions because then they will mock you back.
07:50And so when someone starts mocking about, for example, typos and procession, it will hit you back when you are
07:59doing the hajj.
08:00You know, there are rituals involved, but if you do not have that faith or belief, it will look ridiculous
08:06to someone who doesn't believe.
08:07Like, for example, you know, the, the ritual of stoning, uh, the, the, the devil, that's something sacred to your
08:16religion.
08:16So you do not mock others because it will mock you back.
08:20So coming back to this legality, when you actually go and break the, the, the temple, there are actually laws,
08:31which is, you know, that is, um, provided for where you cannot do that.
08:35That is under the penal code, where it will affect, uh, uh, a community or the, the faith of community
08:42section 295, for example.
08:45So there are these laws.
08:47So how do you balance between section 295 and the legality of the land?
08:53So those are the issues that need to be taken into consideration.
08:57So again, they use the word penchorobo.
09:02Technically speaking, in the case of, for example, the land, uh, the temple in Rawang, which also, you know, exploded.
09:10Um, the temple was there since the nineties and it was on the state land.
09:17And the state then sold that land to an individual and that individual, so the temple was there, if I'm
09:25not mistaken, late nineties or 2001 or something like that.
09:28And then the land was sold in 2018 to an individual.
09:34And from 2018, they sold it to this Yayasan Kubra.
09:38Um, and when Yayasan Kubra took over, now they turn around and say the temple menchorobo, that's not factually right.
09:49So to say that there is this deliberate attempt to build temples on someone's land is actually very unfair.
09:59And, and so that, that whole sentiment, that emotion that comes along with it, um, I would say it's orchestrated,
10:07you know, it's created, uh, to, to create a sense of, you know, um, I don't know whether it's for
10:16viral purpose, you know, social media, anything you create fights, you create anger, you know, to, to, to cause that.
10:23Because at the end of the day, one needs to look back at the cultural differences on how one views
10:31their place of worship for Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, the mosque is built around the community, right?
10:41The mosque is within that community and we use that mosque for meetings.
10:47And there is a minimum number of people that needs to be there for it to be called a mosque.
10:53So you need, uh, you, you, if there is less than 40 people or something, you cannot actually call it
10:59a mosque.
11:01It will be a surau.
11:03So too many mosque is not a good thing.
11:06Okay.
11:07Too many mosque will, is not encouraged because you want as many of those community to go to that particular
11:13mosque.
11:14Okay.
11:14So is, uh, churches as well.
11:17This is where you go for classes, you go for weddings, marriage, there's halls, all kinds of things happen around
11:25the mosque.
11:26But that is not the case for Hindus.
11:29Hindus, you don't hear people going to the same temple based on the fact that you are from that area.
11:36Okay.
11:37That's not the culture.
11:38For Hindus, they go by that particular God, for example, or there is a Sivan temple, there is a Kali
11:46temple, there is, um, you know, various names for temples, Krishna temple, you know.
11:52And so that is why you see temples being built under a tree or a particular, a lot of temples
11:59are built in a, in a cave, you know, because it's not about a, a, a, a worshiping place like
12:07the mosque or the church or a Buddhist temple, for example.
12:12You know, so that's where they get confused because they, they look at it from their own, uh, perspective, their
12:21own prism, and they don't see what it is for the Hindus.
12:25For them, it is a temple that I built for God, which is a very different concept from Muslims, a
12:33place to pray, a place to learn, and a temple that they built for God is like a house of
12:40God for, for them.
12:41So they, they would probably get some, uh, from their own perspective, I may have dreamt that there will be
12:48a temple here.
12:49So that is why you will see temples everywhere.
12:52Yeah, but you cannot, uh, think that this is some kind of proselytizing from the Hindus because the concept of
13:00proselytizing also doesn't exist in the Hindu religion.
13:04Unlike for Christianity, for example, frankly, even Muslims ought not to have proselytizing.
13:11They confuse the word da'wah with mission, missionary, because you cannot actually go and Christianize or Islamize somebody.
13:20You can spread the good word, but one has to actually, uh, utter the, the, the, the, the faith on
13:28their own.
13:28They cannot, you cannot do it on others.
13:30So this idea of, you know, taking children and then Islam, making them Muslims or converting them doesn't exist.
13:38But unfortunately we have all these, you know, self, uh, proclaimed heroes who think they're doing something, uh, you know,
13:49like as if they're part of a crusade.
13:51But even that, even that, where is it coming from?
13:55Because they forget Islam equals to peace.
14:00That's the word Islam came from peace.
14:02So to do things in a way, which is hurtful, racial, you know, it's so racially charged.
14:09Uh, it's very embarrassing.
14:11And I believe that, you know, um, they don't know their, their own religion.
14:16And what more to talk about other people's religion, you know?
14:20Um, and so this whole legal argument that they're talking about, it really depends on the context of history.
14:27You need to look at the history of how it came about.
14:30I'm not saying that all temples could be, you know, according to the law or whatever, but there are definitely
14:37situation where, especially the ones that has gotten, gotten into the news.
14:42Last few weeks are actually like, for example, the Denkil temple, it's been there for decades in the sixties.
14:50And then somebody took over.
14:52There's no way, uh, based on the policy, there's no way that they would be able to get that land
14:59to themselves.
15:00Right.
15:01Even if they had applied, you know, so that's part of the problem.
15:07Latifah, I want to thank you for reminding us that so much of this, um, discourse that we're
15:12addressing online is actually manufactured hate and tension.
15:16So thank you so much for, um, sharing your, your, uh, insights, especially around the legality of the, the issue.
15:24Thank you for your time.
15:25That was lawyer Latifah Koya from Lawyers for Liberty, wrapping up this episode of Consider This.
15:30I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening.
15:32Thank you so much for watching and good night.
15:36Bye.
15:36Bye.
15:38Bye.
15:44Bye.
15:49You
