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In recent days public debate has intensified over the land ownership and legal status of long-standing places of worship in Malaysia. At the centre of the controversy are questions about land rights and historical occupation, as well the role of authorities when religious sites predate modern land titles. So when legality clashes with history, which should prevail? And what principles should guide us as a nation? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Latheefa Koya, Co-Advisor to Lawyers for Liberty.
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00:10Hi, welcome back to Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris. Let's continue our discussion about the
00:15recent controversy around land ownership and the legal status of temples in Malaysia. What would
00:22a fair, lawful and sustainable approach look like for Malaysia in addressing this long-standing
00:28issue? Joining me on the show now is Latifa Koya who's the co-advisor to Lawyers for Liberty. Latifa,
00:35thank you for being on the show with me. I'm wondering whether you agree or think that whether
00:43at the heart of this controversy is a question of legality and if so, from a strictly legal
00:49standpoint, what determines whether a place of worship is quote-unquote lawful or unlawful in
00:57Malaysia? Okay, in fact, I would think it's actually otherwise. It's not actually about
01:04legalism, although they try to hide it by saying that, oh, it's not about racism, it's not about,
01:11you know, religious discrimination or whatever. It is actually the legality of the so-called temple,
01:20which is, you know, when someone wants to say something racist, they usually say, I'm not racist,
01:25but, and then they can carry on. So that seems to be the case. It's actually not only it's racist,
01:32it's hurtful, the way that they have been using the word kuil haram. The issue of whether a temple
01:42or for that matter, any other structure, you know, being built on places or not having license,
01:51it really depends. It's quite complex because it's not a straightforward situation where
01:57they are talking about all temples that are considered illegally built because there are many types of
02:07temples that are being built and what is the history or the background of it? That needs to be taken
02:12into account.
02:13So, of course, one is if a structure is built without permission, right? The local authority have not given them
02:22the building permit.
02:24So, just like if you're building a house, you still need permit to build on your own land a certain
02:31type or certain level of structure.
02:33If it is two storeys or three storeys, you need to get that building permit and it goes through some
02:39process.
02:41So, similarly, what is the question, the issue that we're talking about? Is it because they don't have building permit
02:47or are we talking about temples that are built on state land without permit?
02:56And then you'll have to also look at, are we talking about temples that are already on private land and
03:05are they considered what you, you know, the word they use now is pencerobo?
03:09Okay. So, I feel that the, the recent, um, uh, you know, outburst on, on, on the temples that they
03:21are talking about, somehow it is about temples that have been on state land who then have alienated that land
03:31to a private individual or a, or a organization.
03:35And eventually that owner, that owner, the new owner of the land claims that the temple is illegally there.
03:45So, who is the pencerobo actually?
03:48Because for example, let's start with the Masjid India temple, right?
03:53The Masjid India temple, which have been there.
03:56Okay. We, we shall not dispute whether it's a hundred years or decades or whatever.
04:00The point being, it was on state land and that the temple is visibly there.
04:08It's not like hidden. It's there clearly.
04:11And when the new owner took over, um, they knew very well that the temple was there.
04:18So you can't, uh, say that the temple is the pencerobo.
04:23In fact, that particular temple have asked for that land.
04:28They have offered to buy that land, but it was never given to them.
04:33And so, so when you sold that land to another person, that person now claims that this is my land.
04:40Yes. Legally speaking, yes.
04:42But you, can you actually say that they are pencerobo and, you know, haram in that sense?
04:47So Latifa, just to clarify, if, um, temples or places of worship are built on state land and the state
04:55does not actually do anything to address it for many years and decades, does that reflect a fault in the
05:02governance for the agency itself?
05:05Yes. Because what happens is this, it's not just about temples, but many structures are built on state land.
05:11And, uh, when the state is not using that land, all kinds of things can happen.
05:16People can, uh, sell, uh, open a shop, uh, kedai makan or whatever.
05:20And then over the years, they have actually given value to that piece of land.
05:25So it could be houses, it could be temples.
05:28And, you know, for a while they used to call those houses setinggan, which means, uh, they do those secara
05:34haram.
05:35Right. But in reality, they are actually pioneers of that land.
05:40And we used to then say that, do not call them, uh, uh, kampung haram or seninggan.
05:46They are actually peneroka bandar because they, they open that land.
05:50It could be bushes, it could be, you know, hutan or whatever.
05:53Then they basically, uh, uh, open that land, clear the land and gave value to that land because people are
06:01starting to live there.
06:02And then one day, one fine day, the government decided, eh, we need that part of that land.
06:08Right.
06:08And, um, so then they decide to, they will, they will plan to take it back.
06:14Now, all of that have to go through a process.
06:16So they can't just come and break that, the, the houses or in this case, a temple.
06:22You can't just come and break it because you need to give notice and monies have been spent.
06:27So you also have to compensate, uh, to the structures and whatever that you have spent on that particular building.
06:34So that has been the case for all the housing areas and kampungs and all that.
06:38So in the case of the temple, for example, um, not only you can't just break it because they have
06:46spent, um, money or to build structure or whatever.
06:49But you also have to take into consideration that it is a, uh, sacred, uh, uh, piece of structure for
06:57another, uh, uh, someone else's faith.
07:01So I think, you know, those so-called warriors who are going on this, uh, quill haram thing, I think
07:10they mistakenly understood the word of God.
07:14That's what I would say when they say that you cannot, uh, for Muslims, you cannot have idolatry, right?
07:21Uh, it is, uh, against Islam, but that is within your faith, within your religion.
07:27You don't go and break down somebody else's, uh, uh, religion.
07:30You don't do that.
07:32And, and that is why there's specific, uh, Quranic verses that talk about yours unto your faith and ours unto
07:39our faith.
07:40We'll believe in ours and you believe in yours.
07:43It's been repeated.
07:44And there's many that says don't mock others, other religions because then they will mock you back.
07:50And so when someone starts mocking about, for example, typos and procession, it will hit you back when you are
07:59doing the hajj.
08:00You know, there are rituals involved, but if you do not have that faith or belief, it will look ridiculous
08:06to someone who doesn't believe.
08:07Like, for example, you know, the, the ritual of stoning, uh, the, the, the devil, that's something sacred to your
08:16religion.
08:16So you do not mock others because it will mock you back.
08:20So coming back to this legality, when you actually go and break the, the, the temple, there are actually laws,
08:31which is, you know, that is, um, provided for where you cannot do that.
08:35That is under the penal code, where it will affect, uh, uh, a community or the, the faith of community
08:42section 295, for example.
08:45So there are these laws.
08:47So how do you balance between section 295 and the legality of the land?
08:53So those are the issues that need to be taken into consideration.
08:57So again, they use the word penchorobo.
09:02Technically speaking, in the case of, for example, the land, uh, the temple in Rawang, which also, you know, exploded.
09:10Um, the temple was there since the nineties and it was on the state land.
09:17And the state then sold that land to an individual and that individual, so the temple was there, if I'm
09:25not mistaken, late nineties or 2001 or something like that.
09:28And then the land was sold in 2018 to an individual.
09:34And from 2018, they sold it to this Yayasan Kubra.
09:38Um, and when Yayasan Kubra took over, now they turn around and say the temple menchorobo, that's not factually right.
09:49So to say that there is this deliberate attempt to build temples on someone's land is actually very unfair.
09:59And, and so that, that whole sentiment, that emotion that comes along with it, um, I would say it's orchestrated,
10:07you know, it's created, uh, to, to create a sense of, you know, um, I don't know whether it's for
10:16viral purpose, you know, social media, anything you create fights, you create anger, you know, to, to, to cause that.
10:23Because at the end of the day, one needs to look back at the cultural differences on how one views
10:31their place of worship for Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, the mosque is built around the community, right?
10:41The mosque is within that community and we use that mosque for meetings.
10:47And there is a minimum number of people that needs to be there for it to be called a mosque.
10:53So you need, uh, you, you, if there is less than 40 people or something, you cannot actually call it
10:59a mosque.
11:01It will be a surau.
11:03So too many mosque is not a good thing.
11:06Okay.
11:07Too many mosque will, is not encouraged because you want as many of those community to go to that particular
11:13mosque.
11:14Okay.
11:14So is, uh, churches as well.
11:17This is where you go for classes, you go for weddings, marriage, there's halls, all kinds of things happen around
11:25the mosque.
11:26But that is not the case for Hindus.
11:29Hindus, you don't hear people going to the same temple based on the fact that you are from that area.
11:36Okay.
11:37That's not the culture.
11:38For Hindus, they go by that particular God, for example, or there is a Sivan temple, there is a Kali
11:46temple, there is, um, you know, various names for temples, Krishna temple, you know.
11:52And so that is why you see temples being built under a tree or a particular, a lot of temples
11:59are built in a, in a cave, you know, because it's not about a, a, a, a worshiping place like
12:07the mosque or the church or a Buddhist temple, for example.
12:12You know, so that's where they get confused because they, they look at it from their own, uh, perspective, their
12:21own prism, and they don't see what it is for the Hindus.
12:25For them, it is a temple that I built for God, which is a very different concept from Muslims, a
12:33place to pray, a place to learn, and a temple that they built for God is like a house of
12:40God for, for them.
12:41So they, they would probably get some, uh, from their own perspective, I may have dreamt that there will be
12:48a temple here.
12:49So that is why you will see temples everywhere.
12:52Yeah, but you cannot, uh, think that this is some kind of proselytizing from the Hindus because the concept of
13:00proselytizing also doesn't exist in the Hindu religion.
13:04Unlike for Christianity, for example, frankly, even Muslims ought not to have proselytizing.
13:11They confuse the word da'wah with mission, missionary, because you cannot actually go and Christianize or Islamize somebody.
13:20You can spread the good word, but one has to actually, uh, utter the, the, the, the, the faith on
13:28their own.
13:28They cannot, you cannot do it on others.
13:30So this idea of, you know, taking children and then Islam, making them Muslims or converting them doesn't exist.
13:38But unfortunately we have all these, you know, self, uh, proclaimed heroes who think they're doing something, uh, you know,
13:49like as if they're part of a crusade.
13:51But even that, even that, where is it coming from?
13:55Because they forget Islam equals to peace.
14:00That's the word Islam came from peace.
14:02So to do things in a way, which is hurtful, racial, you know, it's so racially charged.
14:09Uh, it's very embarrassing.
14:11And I believe that, you know, um, they don't know their, their own religion.
14:16And what more to talk about other people's religion, you know?
14:20Um, and so this whole legal argument that they're talking about, it really depends on the context of history.
14:27You need to look at the history of how it came about.
14:30I'm not saying that all temples could be, you know, according to the law or whatever, but there are definitely
14:37situation where, especially the ones that has gotten, gotten into the news.
14:42Last few weeks are actually like, for example, the Denkil temple, it's been there for decades in the sixties.
14:50And then somebody took over.
14:52There's no way, uh, based on the policy, there's no way that they would be able to get that land
14:59to themselves.
15:00Right.
15:01Even if they had applied, you know, so that's part of the problem.
15:07Latifah, I want to thank you for reminding us that so much of this, um, discourse that we're
15:12addressing online is actually manufactured hate and tension.
15:16So thank you so much for, um, sharing your, your, uh, insights, especially around the legality of the, the issue.
15:24Thank you for your time.
15:25That was lawyer Latifah Koya from Lawyers for Liberty, wrapping up this episode of Consider This.
15:30I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening.
15:32Thank you so much for watching and good night.
15:36Bye.
15:36Bye.
15:38Bye.
15:44Bye.
15:49You
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