00:10hello and good evening i'm melissa idris welcome to consider this this is the show
00:15where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day in recent
00:19days public debate has intensified over let the land ownership and legal status of long-standing
00:25places of worship in malaysia at the center of the controversy are questions about land rights
00:32about historical occupation as well as the role of authorities when religious sites predate modern
00:39land titles so join when legality clashes with history which should prevail and what principles
00:47should guide us as a nation when responding to it so joining me on the show today to help us
00:53think
00:53this through is um s ara chelven deputy chairperson of psm ara thank you so much for being on the
01:00show
01:01with me today i i'm curious the issue of um temples without land ownership that's a long-standing one
01:07but i'm curious to know how you see this recent controversy especially the ones that's happened
01:14this year it's sparked um strong public reaction are do you see what what do you see as i guess
01:22the
01:23what this dispute fundamentally represents
01:28i think it's a very uh difficult topic because it touches on religion you know though all religion
01:34talks about peace love and all that but if you look at what what we are facing today for me
01:40you could say this is right-wing racism okay and the the problem is as well as is magnified by
01:50social media
01:52and there is uh extreme views in both sides uh within the muslim community within the hindu community
02:00and and when today in this in the social media you know and i feel this frustration in both parts
02:06the
02:06families are frustrated and they are frustrated and then you know and uh in in their respective uh
02:16whatsapp groups they do have some kind of discussion and i'm i'm in about 120 whatsapp groups so i
02:23i get i get to hear both sides it's it's sad because both sides are frustrated when you know for
02:3160 years
02:32i mean we have been living as a nation and and you know these temples have existed over over the
02:37years
02:38so i think people are more stressed out today and social media doesn't help help that much i reckon
02:45can you elaborate when you say um that you're hearing frustration uh from what you're observing uh in
02:53public discourse and especially on social media what underpins the frustration how do you see or what
02:59concerns you about the way this issue is being discussed firstly i think you know uh lumping
03:07every temple as illegal you know and i think i think when you technically it's correct because when
03:14you are in the when your land doesn't belong to you it it means illegal you know but then of
03:19course
03:20people this is about religion you know what religion and beliefs and when you say a temple is illegal
03:26is it hits fundamentally to the hindus and a lot of uh muslims feel that the hindus are robbing the
03:34land
03:35you know robbing uh other people's land and the hindus on the other side feel that you know we have
03:42they have not been able to get places to to build temples to get permission to build temples and so
03:49uh and
03:50you know that all these temples have history and if you there's a question which goes around that
03:57how come all these temples have got electricity water supply you know if they're supposed to be illegal
04:03because every temple there's some politician involved there's some politician who have them give them
04:09water electricity every election they come aboard shaken and they say don't worry we will take care of you
04:16so uh this is not really just a very simple question about uh right and wrong you know we have
04:24to look
04:24case by case right and i i i agree with you the use of the word illegal is is very
04:32problematic i don't think
04:33i mean similarly when people use the term illegal immigrants no person no human being should be deemed
04:40illegal and no you know places of worship should be also take everything needs to be taken into
04:47context and i'm curious to know because the prime minister i know ibrahim um he i think reiterated that
04:53malaysians are free to build houses of worship as long as it is in accordance with the law and i'm
05:00curious to know how you view this uh statement and what we risk when we frame discussions like this
05:07narrowly in terms of legality without considering um the historical and the community factors involved
05:17yeah you know what he says in a way is correct okay everybody have to follow the legal way both
05:25sides can
05:25can work on the same thing you know both sides can can capitalize it and use it in their angle
05:31in simple terms in in land there's only two types of land one is called state then one is called
05:38private
05:38land you know every private land has to go to the court if i'm squatting even even if you're melissa
05:44if
05:45you're renting uh i'm i'm renting your house you can't just kick me out of my house you know even
05:50though
05:51you are the owner of the house also the law is such that you have to get a court order
05:55to evit people
05:57and malaysian courts have been considered you know and because malaysian courts have recognized
06:01that when you go to the court the court will see whether you've stayed there for how long whether
06:06you are merely a squatter or do you have a history behind it so that is private line you know
06:13so every
06:14private land should go to the court and let the court decide but the other point is the state land
06:19state land is comes under state governments local governments comes under the pejabatana you know
06:26district and this this lands are there you know and this is where the state the state land the
06:32district office can give notices now the question arises is i'm very sure that the district office knows
06:39this temple they know which temples are built in two weeks which temples are built in 50 50 years which
06:46temples are there for 100 years because uh no temples can be built overnight so this the so in a
06:54situation
06:54like that so when you talk about legality of course the district office has the legal means to give you
07:02a
07:02notice but there's something else in law which is called given motivation dorongan they say for all
07:09these years you don't evict somebody you know you attend when they have festival all the adults and
07:16and why this go there you know um do all the ceremonies together and then and then give them water
07:25and
07:25electricity and then suddenly overnight you can't call them you know so so this is the issues so every
07:31we have temples we have been been there for 100 over years temples were built in plantation land which
07:37mainly built by plantation owners it's not built by the estate workers plantation owners need to build
07:43temples to make sure that after all the hardship the workers go through they got a place to go and
07:48pray
07:48or to rest so all temples in the in many many malaysian temples are from the plantations then you have
07:55temples built below beside the railway lines there are many temples also built in hospital land you know
08:01and review all the history the temples are there first and then the hospitals come but they could
08:07coexist over the years no issues you know so every hospitals has a surau you know all these things can
08:19coexist there's no issue actually you raised an important point about the um state jurisdiction or state
08:27purview versus federal purview and there's a national community committee that's been set up now to address
08:33land and legal issues of hindu temples i'm curious to know aro if we do think about this at just
08:40a federal
08:40level what are you hoping they prioritize what are you hoping they folk um essentially resolve
08:50so firstly uh land is a state issue okay and uh even if you have anything at the federal level
08:57it must
08:58be resolved at the state level so very important to have this hindu endowment board
09:07this is only in uh we have it in penang and in the last general election pakatan harapan the current
09:14government government actually promised that they will set up uh hindu endowment board in a number
09:19of states like trerac selengor joho west states which have a lot of uh hindus you know so once it's
09:27under a hindu endowment board that means all temples will come under there so first thing i think they
09:33have to do is do a simple auditing you know how many temples are there quite easy to do the
09:38land of this
09:38will be able to do selengor in 2008 what they did was when they came to power pakatan raya they
09:45they
09:46gave a period one month for all the people there all those having temples they have to fill up a
09:52form
09:52and fill and submit it they say if you don't fill up the form and then we will consider that
09:59you are an
10:00illegal temple you know you will come and we can demolish so many people after they get this forms then
10:06they decide which is uh temples which have been there for long historically so in slengor they
10:13said temples which are more than 100 years should be allowed to stay where they are okay they should
10:18try to give them the land failing which if there's a road coming up or something then they should be
10:23relocated temples after before in the year 2008 they should be considered if they have long history they
10:32should be considered relocation and new temples don't give them permission demolish them the minute you
10:38get a complaint so that was the position of the slengor government which i think is quite good you need
10:45to do an auditing you need to know which are the temples don't lump all the temples into one lump
10:52it you know
10:52the hundred years maybe temples post medica pre medica you know they you make some uh classification
11:00and then you know illegal factories they call it process permutihan ah regularization yeah yeah so
11:08similarly you know even even a migrant labor undocumented you can be process permutihan the
11:15government will say okay we will allow similarly do it to temples and you know okay
11:21arul what's stopping other states from adopting similar practices like the slengor temple policy
11:28i think firstly there's no no political will every time when the issue comes comes up like that
11:35indian politician will support the hindu temple and the muslim politician will support muslim you know
11:41so in in 1947 when when the putra amcj was trying to form the
11:49constitutional raya they had what they call it a board where they are all religions are sitting in a
11:57board so when they say religious conflict you go there and it could be resolved you know so similarly
12:04you should have a board you know any case you know like for us like indrani you know the conversion
12:10case
12:11this all these cases become very serious racial issues you know people love different religion
12:18then they divorce and then they fight for custody it is a family matter but today it become a nation
12:25nation national issue you know so i think those kind of issues similarly to temples or similar issues
12:32should be resolved so at the federal level or they can form committees boards which all disputes you
12:39have like a tribunal you go there you don't go to the media you don't go to the tick tock
12:44you don't
12:45go to whatsapp you go to this group go there talk to them they should have all religion people there
12:51and they should be able to find a problem and this is what i did when i was a counselor
12:56in kajam
12:57sometimes neighbors fight over an issue of having a dog okay or sometimes about you know cooking and
13:05you don't need to go to the internet you just have to call some elderly people in that area from
13:11both
13:12both religious sit in a room and then resolve the problems it could be done not a big problem
13:18definitely arul thank you so much for being on the show with me today i appreciate your time
13:22as arul chalvin there from psm we're going to take a quick break here and consider this we'll be back
13:26with
13:26more stay tuned
