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- #considerthis
In recent days public debate has intensified over the land ownership and legal status of long-standing places of worship in Malaysia. At the centre of the controversy are questions about land rights and historical occupation, as well the role of authorities when religious sites predate modern land titles. So when legality clashes with history, which should prevail? And what principles should guide us as a nation? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with S Arutchelvan, Deputy Chairperson of PSM.
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00:10hello and good evening i'm melissa idris welcome to consider this this is the show
00:15where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day in recent
00:19days public debate has intensified over let the land ownership and legal status of long-standing
00:25places of worship in malaysia at the center of the controversy are questions about land rights
00:32about historical occupation as well as the role of authorities when religious sites predate modern
00:39land titles so join when legality clashes with history which should prevail and what principles
00:47should guide us as a nation when responding to it so joining me on the show today to help us
00:53think
00:53this through is um s ara chelven deputy chairperson of psm ara thank you so much for being on the
01:00show
01:01with me today i i'm curious the issue of um temples without land ownership that's a long-standing one
01:07but i'm curious to know how you see this recent controversy especially the ones that's happened
01:14this year it's sparked um strong public reaction are do you see what what do you see as i guess
01:22the
01:23what this dispute fundamentally represents
01:28i think it's a very uh difficult topic because it touches on religion you know though all religion
01:34talks about peace love and all that but if you look at what what we are facing today for me
01:40you could say this is right-wing racism okay and the the problem is as well as is magnified by
01:50social media
01:52and there is uh extreme views in both sides uh within the muslim community within the hindu community
02:00and and when today in this in the social media you know and i feel this frustration in both parts
02:06the
02:06families are frustrated and they are frustrated and then you know and uh in in their respective uh
02:16whatsapp groups they do have some kind of discussion and i'm i'm in about 120 whatsapp groups so i
02:23i get i get to hear both sides it's it's sad because both sides are frustrated when you know for
02:3160 years
02:32i mean we have been living as a nation and and you know these temples have existed over over the
02:37years
02:38so i think people are more stressed out today and social media doesn't help help that much i reckon
02:45can you elaborate when you say um that you're hearing frustration uh from what you're observing uh in
02:53public discourse and especially on social media what underpins the frustration how do you see or what
02:59concerns you about the way this issue is being discussed firstly i think you know uh lumping
03:07every temple as illegal you know and i think i think when you technically it's correct because when
03:14you are in the when your land doesn't belong to you it it means illegal you know but then of
03:19course
03:20people this is about religion you know what religion and beliefs and when you say a temple is illegal
03:26is it hits fundamentally to the hindus and a lot of uh muslims feel that the hindus are robbing the
03:34land
03:35you know robbing uh other people's land and the hindus on the other side feel that you know we have
03:42they have not been able to get places to to build temples to get permission to build temples and so
03:49uh and
03:50you know that all these temples have history and if you there's a question which goes around that
03:57how come all these temples have got electricity water supply you know if they're supposed to be illegal
04:03because every temple there's some politician involved there's some politician who have them give them
04:09water electricity every election they come aboard shaken and they say don't worry we will take care of you
04:16so uh this is not really just a very simple question about uh right and wrong you know we have
04:24to look
04:24case by case right and i i i agree with you the use of the word illegal is is very
04:32problematic i don't think
04:33i mean similarly when people use the term illegal immigrants no person no human being should be deemed
04:40illegal and no you know places of worship should be also take everything needs to be taken into
04:47context and i'm curious to know because the prime minister i know ibrahim um he i think reiterated that
04:53malaysians are free to build houses of worship as long as it is in accordance with the law and i'm
05:00curious to know how you view this uh statement and what we risk when we frame discussions like this
05:07narrowly in terms of legality without considering um the historical and the community factors involved
05:17yeah you know what he says in a way is correct okay everybody have to follow the legal way both
05:25sides can
05:25can work on the same thing you know both sides can can capitalize it and use it in their angle
05:31in simple terms in in land there's only two types of land one is called state then one is called
05:38private
05:38land you know every private land has to go to the court if i'm squatting even even if you're melissa
05:44if
05:45you're renting uh i'm i'm renting your house you can't just kick me out of my house you know even
05:50though
05:51you are the owner of the house also the law is such that you have to get a court order
05:55to evit people
05:57and malaysian courts have been considered you know and because malaysian courts have recognized
06:01that when you go to the court the court will see whether you've stayed there for how long whether
06:06you are merely a squatter or do you have a history behind it so that is private line you know
06:13so every
06:14private land should go to the court and let the court decide but the other point is the state land
06:19state land is comes under state governments local governments comes under the pejabatana you know
06:26district and this this lands are there you know and this is where the state the state land the
06:32district office can give notices now the question arises is i'm very sure that the district office knows
06:39this temple they know which temples are built in two weeks which temples are built in 50 50 years which
06:46temples are there for 100 years because uh no temples can be built overnight so this the so in a
06:54situation
06:54like that so when you talk about legality of course the district office has the legal means to give you
07:02a
07:02notice but there's something else in law which is called given motivation dorongan they say for all
07:09these years you don't evict somebody you know you attend when they have festival all the adults and
07:16and why this go there you know um do all the ceremonies together and then and then give them water
07:25and
07:25electricity and then suddenly overnight you can't call them you know so so this is the issues so every
07:31we have temples we have been been there for 100 over years temples were built in plantation land which
07:37mainly built by plantation owners it's not built by the estate workers plantation owners need to build
07:43temples to make sure that after all the hardship the workers go through they got a place to go and
07:48pray
07:48or to rest so all temples in the in many many malaysian temples are from the plantations then you have
07:55temples built below beside the railway lines there are many temples also built in hospital land you know
08:01and review all the history the temples are there first and then the hospitals come but they could
08:07coexist over the years no issues you know so every hospitals has a surau you know all these things can
08:19coexist there's no issue actually you raised an important point about the um state jurisdiction or state
08:27purview versus federal purview and there's a national community committee that's been set up now to address
08:33land and legal issues of hindu temples i'm curious to know aro if we do think about this at just
08:40a federal
08:40level what are you hoping they prioritize what are you hoping they folk um essentially resolve
08:50so firstly uh land is a state issue okay and uh even if you have anything at the federal level
08:57it must
08:58be resolved at the state level so very important to have this hindu endowment board
09:07this is only in uh we have it in penang and in the last general election pakatan harapan the current
09:14government government actually promised that they will set up uh hindu endowment board in a number
09:19of states like trerac selengor joho west states which have a lot of uh hindus you know so once it's
09:27under a hindu endowment board that means all temples will come under there so first thing i think they
09:33have to do is do a simple auditing you know how many temples are there quite easy to do the
09:38land of this
09:38will be able to do selengor in 2008 what they did was when they came to power pakatan raya they
09:45they
09:46gave a period one month for all the people there all those having temples they have to fill up a
09:52form
09:52and fill and submit it they say if you don't fill up the form and then we will consider that
09:59you are an
10:00illegal temple you know you will come and we can demolish so many people after they get this forms then
10:06they decide which is uh temples which have been there for long historically so in slengor they
10:13said temples which are more than 100 years should be allowed to stay where they are okay they should
10:18try to give them the land failing which if there's a road coming up or something then they should be
10:23relocated temples after before in the year 2008 they should be considered if they have long history they
10:32should be considered relocation and new temples don't give them permission demolish them the minute you
10:38get a complaint so that was the position of the slengor government which i think is quite good you need
10:45to do an auditing you need to know which are the temples don't lump all the temples into one lump
10:52it you know
10:52the hundred years maybe temples post medica pre medica you know they you make some uh classification
11:00and then you know illegal factories they call it process permutihan ah regularization yeah yeah so
11:08similarly you know even even a migrant labor undocumented you can be process permutihan the
11:15government will say okay we will allow similarly do it to temples and you know okay
11:21arul what's stopping other states from adopting similar practices like the slengor temple policy
11:28i think firstly there's no no political will every time when the issue comes comes up like that
11:35indian politician will support the hindu temple and the muslim politician will support muslim you know
11:41so in in 1947 when when the putra amcj was trying to form the
11:49constitutional raya they had what they call it a board where they are all religions are sitting in a
11:57board so when they say religious conflict you go there and it could be resolved you know so similarly
12:04you should have a board you know any case you know like for us like indrani you know the conversion
12:10case
12:11this all these cases become very serious racial issues you know people love different religion
12:18then they divorce and then they fight for custody it is a family matter but today it become a nation
12:25nation national issue you know so i think those kind of issues similarly to temples or similar issues
12:32should be resolved so at the federal level or they can form committees boards which all disputes you
12:39have like a tribunal you go there you don't go to the media you don't go to the tick tock
12:44you don't
12:45go to whatsapp you go to this group go there talk to them they should have all religion people there
12:51and they should be able to find a problem and this is what i did when i was a counselor
12:56in kajam
12:57sometimes neighbors fight over an issue of having a dog okay or sometimes about you know cooking and
13:05you don't need to go to the internet you just have to call some elderly people in that area from
13:11both
13:12both religious sit in a room and then resolve the problems it could be done not a big problem
13:18definitely arul thank you so much for being on the show with me today i appreciate your time
13:22as arul chalvin there from psm we're going to take a quick break here and consider this we'll be back
13:26with
13:26more stay tuned
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