00:00hello and good evening i'm melissa idris welcome to consider this this is the show where we want
00:16you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day so parliament has passed
00:21the government procurement act a law that putra jaya says is key to preventing another scandal
00:29on the scale of 1 mdb and they say it will be to standardize procurement across federal and state
00:35levels however critics are warning of loopholes within the law that could invite abuse so joining
00:42us on the show to discuss this further is pushburn murugaya who is the ceo of the center to combat
00:49corruption and cronism or better known as the c4 center bushman thank you so much for being on the
00:54show with me today let's let's get right into it talk to me a little bit about this um the iteration
01:00of the government procurement bill that has now passed into legislation what are your um your key
01:05concerns with this piece of law hi melissa and thanks for having me uh okay i think first of all i want to
01:13put it out there that um there is a narrative going on that you know civil society and mps uh don't want
01:19this act actually what we are is we are proponents for a particular public procurement act to regulate
01:24this particular area but unfortunately the act that was passed through uh recently is not the act
01:32that we can accept in any way form a matter why let me give you a few examples first of all the powers
01:39given to the minister is extremely wide he can actually decide on any procurement with no upper limit
01:47ceiling that's the first red flag really have then if you look at the act it does prescribe a um
01:54procurement board which is good but again the pokemon board if they come up with a decision
02:02the discretion to accept or not is up to the minister again powerful discretionary power which makes it
02:11redundant in that sense then you have to oversight okay there is another good point saying yes now we
02:16have tribunals for you to uh make a complaint if there's a grievances issue okay that's good but
02:22then we go back to the same problem who appoints to travel or sets up the procedure
02:26it's the minister so all this while civil societies and mps who have been fighting for
02:33the independence of institutions for example macc we wanted to be independent ag and pp separation because
02:39there's issues of potentially control but in this particular case the act actually codifies the
02:45minister's power in so many areas that it gives such a wide discretionary powers and it allows for
02:53executives to control the whole process that's true and the other more common problem we have also is now we
03:01have a minister of finance who is empowered here but don't forget he's also the prime minister
03:11a double whammy is there and this gives us fear factor because look at najib he had both portfolio
03:18and what happened to them one mdb happened so the anxiety is there the fear factor is is real and one
03:24more important point i think i also for a c4 is very important this act actually in a way allows for
03:31the codification of a crony list because in order to be a participant in the tenders you have to be
03:38listed in the list which is approved by authorizing body and that authorizing body can allow or disallow you
03:47to be put in the list without giving any excuse or reasoning which means it allows you now to
03:54have a crony list or codify a list that more is perhaps you know you can become uh for friends of
04:01yours who are part of your political circles so those concerns are very obvious in this particular act
04:09and these are the few concerns we actually have in terms of those act okay can i can i get deeper into
04:14them so when you are talking about um the expansion of power or that you are concerned about the amount of
04:23power being held by a minister are you referring to the finance minister specifically or any minister
04:30okay so one of the one of the concerns or one of the reasons for or the rationale behind having this act
04:37was to curb ministerial power so not to have political interference in terms of government procurement
04:47does this act not address that concern that is the narrative that has been sold but unfortunately the
04:57contents and details of the act actually does not reflect any of the the object i mean the spirit of
05:04the nature of the whole act now those days when you do not have the act all right you have ministers who
05:12you have people in power who do control give instructions we all know that for a fact we have
05:16no proof but it happens but the fact that it happens we can't say much but now the fact that it's codified
05:25you have an act that now codifies their powers their discretion powers and even if they do that in the
05:31future there is no recourse or no excuse to say anything anymore you are basically codifying all the bad
05:39practices that happen before this into an act and entrenching those practices that's our concern
05:46so are you saying that you know so the the idea was that this law would help this country
05:53prevent another 1mdb scandal we never want to see a scandal of that scale again you c4 does not believe
06:00that this act will address the structural causes that allowed for those past abuses
06:05if not it will actually um entrench those practices and now onwards you will not have
06:14uh any more because as i have i've asked i put this question forward to all the mps who will pass it
06:20act tell me how does this particular act in this instance will solve your 1mdb or will stop the 1mdb
06:27how would this act in any way stop your lcs how would this act in any way stop your scoping scandal
06:35if you realize it that this act actually allows those contracts to go through and that scanner go
06:41through you will realize how dangerous this particular act is all right uh could you push
06:48elaborate a little bit so when you talked about the codification of a crony list can you elaborate what
06:54you mean by that what does this crony list actually entail what does the law allow for okay it's it's
07:01it's a bit of you have to do a little analysis but i'll try to make it as articulate as possible so
07:06now in order to participate in any government procurement you have to be uh uh do you have to be
07:15listed in a particular list to be eligible to uh participate now in order to be in that list you
07:24have to get the approval of an authorizing body all right that authorizing body it can be the minister
07:32that gives you the contract which is the minister for example this example is minister finance so they
07:36can approve whoever that sits on a particular list all right now if for example you have a company that
07:42wants to be in the list but he has got alignment to maybe opposition uh party or people who are
07:49not in favor of the government that authorizing body can reject his application to be in that list
07:56which means in other words if he abused his power to a full extent all he has to do is approve people
08:02that they are comfortable with his his cronies political alignments those companies will be parked
08:09in the list to be eligible for government contracts so in that sense it allows for setting up of a crony list
08:16right uh i'm just wondering so some politicians former politicians have also kind of responded
08:23to the government procurement act rafizi is someone who's been quite vocal about it um and he says that
08:30this is a good law but it shouldn't have been bulldozed through parliament should we be reading into
08:36um the process and the speed through which it was passed that entire process should we be concerned
08:42about it do you agree with rafizi pushman no personally i don't agree rafizi and i think again
08:49personally um the reason why it was bulldozed is because it actually gives a lot of powers to the minister
08:58that is the reason why it bulldozed so quickly let me contextualize for you in malaysia the biggest
09:05problem we have is corruption we so endemic is entrenched in our system in our political
09:11structure in our bureaucracy it's so it's our biggest problem all right and yet the lord is
09:18supposed to address our biggest problem was us within three and a half days you put it on monday
09:27and then on thursday afternoon you pass the act that supposedly to deal with our biggest problem
09:35that is the concern that i have i mean how can you do that and also bear in mind i don't this may be
09:41a little bit more conspiracy in that sense but at that particular time the ura was already put out
09:48there bill was already out there everybody is discussing please don't agree with it everybody is
09:53discussing about it that out of the blue you have a public procurement act sneaking into the table to be
10:02table quietly so i mean it may sound conspiracy but i think it's it gives a fear factor that such a
10:11powerful uh bill to deal with our biggest problem was done in such a quietly secretive and very fast
10:20approval method to get it done it's a bit of course of a concern and in fact mps from both sides
10:25government and opposition and still society if you're not saying don't don't go through
10:31hold on change strengthening make it more powerful and really useful then you go through
10:38that's our only demand yeah so could you also elaborate what change what specifically if there
10:45was still a chance to amend the bill what changes would you insist upon i think initially what we wanted
10:51was to see how we can limit the participation or the control or the influence of the executive
10:57that is our biggest concern in any of our government issues of interest issues is how the the executive
11:04controls the entire process that has to be controlled that has to be limited no we're not saying
11:09executive cannot function cannot do their work they have to but they have to be independent oversight
11:15mechanism independent processes uh clear and transparent procurement processes that actually help the
11:22nation go through development in the proper way not where the minister has so wide powers that he can
11:30do whatever he wants that is not a bill that we want okay uh and given that the act has actually passed
11:37do you think uh what what happens now is it too late do either is there still an opportunity for citizens
11:44activists like yourself parliamentarians um to be vigilant or to what what can we do to
11:51safeguard from um abuse yeah i mean first point i hope this message goes through to all mps
11:59mps please you represent the interests of the people do not have party uh interest first
12:07instead of people's interest instead of people's interest this bill does not prevent corruption it
12:13actually and in plenty of other issues so please be truthful when you want to explain the constituency
12:19what is the context of the bill and i think going forward there are a few things we can do one is
12:24really ask for the government to expressly commit that they will amend those uh extensively wide powers and
12:33and manage in such such a way that there's a lot of consultation with us to make it into a much more
12:38workable act that's one perhaps going forward they can have a special um independent commission to see
12:45how to implement uh and also come up with regulations and codes under the act that will actually strengthen
12:52the independence of those institutions and trying to make it much more workable in that sense so there are
12:57some things we can do but we have to have our engagement csos academics to come together and see
13:03how to build a stronger framework on top of what has been passed all right pushman thank you so much
13:10for highlighting these concerns we appreciate your time push from the c4 center we're going to take a
13:15quick break here and consider this we'll be back with more on the government procurement act after this stay tuned
Comments