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World of Trouble: ‘I was a British POW tortured by Russia; this is how Ukraine can win this war’The Independent
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00:00You come here, you volunteer. Do you go straight into the Ukrainian Marines?
00:04The recruitment officer was just bewildered and he was like, like, why? Like, you're British.
00:09I was like, I want to try and help. Do you want a beautiful death or do you want a
00:13quick death?
00:13I was fully expecting to be murdered at that point. There's a lot of things that
00:19are showing that Russia is becoming a lot more destabilized.
00:25Welcome to the World of Trouble with me, Sam Kiley. Now, I'm talking to you from eastern Ukraine.
00:31And during the course of these broadcasts, we're going to be occasionally bringing you podcasts
00:38from the field itself. And there's nobody who spent more time in the fields, particularly on the
00:45battlefields of both northern Syria and of Ukraine than Aidan Aslan.
00:52What on earth made a young lad from Newark decide to go out, first of all, to volunteer
00:58to fight ISIS in northern Iraq and then ended up here in Ukraine?
01:05I'd probably say especially like this is like going back like 10 years now.
01:09Like back then, I was when I first went to Syria. I was 21. I wasn't ex-military.
01:15And I'd probably say a lot of it was frustration with like the geopolitical scene of the world at the
01:22time,
01:23especially with the situation that occurred in Iraq after the US and NATO allies like pulled out
01:31and the the space that was just left open for ISIS to gain as much power as it originally did.
01:39And then we obviously saw the repercussions of that later on when the events in Sinjar with the Yazidis.
01:47And then this is the mass murder, mass rape.
01:50Yeah. So like the mass atrocities that were committed by ISIS.
01:53And I remember at the time I was I was just a civilian working as a support worker.
01:59I had been following the Syrian civil war since 2011. I'd never had any interest in going to Syria.
02:07But it wasn't until the images, especially from Sinjar, started to come out and it was the the video from
02:16ITN's news crew
02:18when they went on the helicopter to the top of the mountain to try and report.
02:23And there was just hundreds of Yazidis that were like trying to escape from ISIS.
02:28And I'd probably say it was a defining moment like in my journey where I decided that I could either
02:38continue to stay at home
02:41or stand by my belief and moral philosophy and actually do something when other people won't do something.
02:49And the main reason was I felt there was a sense of injustice that the West wasn't doing enough to
02:56try
02:56and prevent the atrocities that were being committed.
02:59I would definitely say like when I look back at my experience of going to Syria when I was 21,
03:04I look back and see like a naive, like young, young kid.
03:10Yeah.
03:11I mean, again, it's like 10 years ago, but like still feels like it was yesterday for me.
03:16And you ended up fighting with the Peshmerga, the Kurdish forces in Rojava, north eastern Syria,
03:24against the world's most brutal terrorist organization, ISIS.
03:31You must feel lucky to still be alive just from that experience.
03:36I definitely feel lucky in that sense.
03:39And I mean, we did have a few like situations where we narrowly avoided like not being able to continue
03:49our lives.
03:49When did you first come here to Ukraine?
03:52Um, yeah.
03:53So when I came in 2018, at this point, I'd like I left Syria in 2017 because I was just
04:02exhausted with with just the way we have to be over there.
04:08I was exhausted with just the the the mental strain of that sort of like conflict like has on you.
04:16And so I returned to Britain again, similar to how during my time with wanting to go to Syria,
04:24my moral perspective was that if if there's a wall on in in Europe and no one knows about it,
04:35but it's still going on.
04:37And then again, my same principle is that he's going to go do something if no one else is willing
04:44to do it.
04:45Doesn't I mean, I know that by then you were a combat veteran, you were a completely different creature.
04:51So you come here, you volunteer, do you go straight into the Ukrainian Marines?
04:56And the recruitment officer was just bewildered.
04:59And he was like, like, why?
05:00Like, you're British.
05:01Yeah, I was like, I want to like help try and help.
05:04And so he he was like, OK, and we started the process.
05:08It was probably about a a three week, four week process because you have to go through a security check
05:14and you have to go through a medical and psychological.
05:18I started my two months basic training with my class of, I think, about like 30 other people that had
05:28just joined.
05:29All of them were Ukrainians, and I think they were taken aback that there was a British a British guy
05:36that wanted to join them.
05:39So I'd probably say I was the curiosity amongst them in our training class.
05:43By the end of it, we then took our oath to Ukraine, where we get sworn in officially, and then
05:50finished training, and I got sent to my battalion.
05:53So I did that for about four years, like I did my parachute jumps with with my company, and I
06:00earned the Ukrainian Marine Beret, which is like, if I remember correctly, it's like a six or five kilometre just
06:07obstacle course of like death, basically.
06:13Was that a proud moment when you got your Marine Beret?
06:16I'd say it was, I mean, myself and like some of the other foreigners, I did it alongside, like, I'd
06:22say it was a proud moment because we, we were like the first foreigners that received the Marine Beret.
06:29And again, we were like the first foreigners that received our like Ukrainian wings.
06:35So I'd definitely say it was a proud moment.
06:37So where did you find yourself in February 2022?
06:40So in February 2022, I was based in Pavlopoul, which I'd been based in for the past, like, three years.
06:48So I knew, I knew the town and village and the surrounding areas, like, very well.
06:52It's literally just probably 20 minutes down the road from Mariupol.
06:56We initially deployed to the front line the, I think it was the three months prior.
07:02And when it did happen, what did that feel like?
07:05I'd probably say it was kind of a relief in some sick, twisted way, because in the build up to
07:12it, you've got all this anxiety because, you know, it's coming, but you just don't know when it's going to
07:17happen.
07:17And I would say it was a kind of relief when it did happen.
07:21But at the same time, it's also, you know, you know, what's happening.
07:26And like, I don't think we've seen anything of this scale, like not since the second world.
07:32Yeah.
07:33Since, since the second world.
07:34I mean, what did it look like?
07:35Did it all feel like to you to see these, you know, the Russians are all about mass, about sheer
07:41weight of numbers, weight of artillery.
07:43Was that what they used, tried to use against you and you, you guys stopped them?
07:47Just the constant sound of the front line is just the sound of constant like artillery, like battering away with
07:54the drums.
07:56And especially in regards to like the grad, the BM-21 grad rocket launcher.
08:03Yeah.
08:03Stellan organ, I speak of course.
08:04Um, hearing the sound of that was very terrifying, but at the same time, I'm very like amazed by the
08:11sound because it's just such a sound that's so terrifying, but beautiful in a way, which sounds weird.
08:17But you, you would understand if you hear it.
08:20Um.
08:20I've heard it a lot.
08:21I've never found it beautiful.
08:22I've only ever found it.
08:23It's.
08:24I mean, it's, it's terrifying.
08:26I absolutely hate it, but there's like a sort of.
08:29What do you like about it?
08:29The incoming screech, the crunch of the exposure, followed by dozens more.
08:35That's like the best way I can describe it.
08:37It sounds like drums.
08:40And I think that's what I find interesting about it.
08:43And for the next like two or three days, we ended up doing like a sort of like tactical, like
08:49pepper pop retreat.
08:51Um, until eventually we arrived at the steelworks in Illichar in Mariupol.
08:58And it was probably within a few days that the Russians started to slowly advance and probably by March 10th,
09:08that's when we got told that we were now encircled.
09:11Because at this point, not only did we have to deal with the Russians coming from us from the original
09:17frontline we were based on, they'd also pushed through from Crimea, which was on Korea.
09:23And I, I knew already that that's what would happen because it's, it's just the most logical sense.
09:31Um, so I knew we were going to be in that situation.
09:35Um, and so March 10th comes by, the Russians come, they reach Mariupol from both sides and there's like a
09:46corridor and it's just like slowly being closed.
09:50And I, I remember when, when I spoke with my commander and he, he told me that like Russia has
09:57now completely encircled us.
09:59And I remember the, the dread that I was like thinking to myself, like, like when I was in Syria
10:07and like, I remember we would, uh, encircle ISIS, like in, in the cities.
10:13And I was kind of like humorously comparing it to that.
10:18I was like, now I know what ISIS feels like.
10:20Yeah.
10:20Did you def, did you at some point think I, this is definitely not for me.
10:24I want to go home.
10:25Luckily when the invasion started, that didn't happen because as we've seen, like Ukraine has proven to a lot of
10:33people that like judged them and said otherwise that they would roll over.
10:37Were you surprised that Ukraine held on in those, um, yeah, I would say I was definitely surprised, but I
10:45was quite surprised at like how well we did.
10:48And I was also surprised at just how incompetent and disorganized the Russian military actually were compared to what I
10:58had viewed them before the invasion.
11:00It definitely took me by surprise with like how well Ukraine did.
11:04I mean, I would say the first cup, the first month was, uh, chaotic.
11:09Um, it took a bit of time for units to get, uh, organized and to get themselves sorted.
11:17Obviously we were in Mariupol.
11:19Um, we were cut off, but I also know that because of our situation, it basically bought time for the
11:27rest of the country to get organized.
11:29And set the defenses up well, um, because at the main time, at that time, like Russia was taking a
11:36beating in Mariupol.
11:38Um, so it allowed the country to basically fight back and help basically.
11:44So how many were you, can you, do you know now, surrounded in Mariupol?
11:49So in Mariupol, I want to say, I would say the, the, the, the official figures like roughly around maybe
11:5710,000, maybe.
12:00And that's between like the National Guard, police, like Marines, um, and all the other units and volunteers.
12:08I know in, when, when, when we surrendered, um, it was probably around like $2,000 that surrendered.
12:15In the Steelworks.
12:16In the EHR Steelworks.
12:18And I remember when, when it came to that point, like this, like that is like one of the scariest
12:25moments in my life.
12:27Like when, when, when, when you're told, like, like the day before I had to make the choice, we had
12:34been battered into oblivion by artillery.
12:38Um, all our ammunition and supplies had been destroyed the day previously.
12:44And basically we, we, we, we didn't have any means to continue fighting.
12:49We, we couldn't fight because we had no, nothing to fight with.
12:53Um, we had mass like casualties, uh, people that needed urgent medical attention.
12:59And it was just building day by day.
13:01And I knew from, from my research and my experience with just reading about Russian history and their treatment of
13:10POWs.
13:11Like I knew if I surrender, it's not going to be any, like, there's, there's going to be no, uh,
13:20Geneva convention.
13:21It doesn't, it just doesn't exist when it comes to captivity with the Russians.
13:25But I also knew that they weren't ISIS to a degree.
13:29Cause I know when we were in Syria, like surrender wasn't an option.
13:33Yeah.
13:33We carried a bullet or we carried a spare grenade because ISIS are the one people you do not want
13:39to get captured by.
13:40But I, I knew with, with the Russians, a lot of it would be political, especially considering the fact that
13:47I am a foreigner.
13:49Um, but I also didn't know if I would survive it.
13:53And I, I stacked my odds at the time at like, maybe, maybe like 75 to like 80% chance
14:00they just decide to shoot me.
14:02Or there's that small percentage chance that they don't, I get tortured and beaten and everything that I'm expecting to
14:10happen.
14:11But at some point I, I go home and get to see my family again.
14:16And I remember when we went to the surrender point, uh, company by company with those that remained, um, it
14:23was like the most dreadful feeling.
14:25Like the people that you've been fighting, like for the past, like four years.
14:31Um, and I would say everything that I'd learned about Russian captivity, um, in regards to their treatment of POWs
14:45in Georgia, uh, especially like stuff like Syria.
14:49And then also Transnistria, um, I would say it's 10 times worse than what I read.
14:57Um, but the, I think the, the, the best part is, is just that I got out of it alive.
15:03Before we come to what happened to you, to you in, in Russian captivity, where of course, one of the
15:08first things that happened to you is you got sentenced to death for being a foreign mercenary.
15:12But how many weeks had you been fighting in the steelworks by then?
15:17And can you describe what that was like?
15:19So we arrived to the steelworks probably 1st of February and we surrounded on the 11th of April.
15:31Um, and at this point I, I was in the HQ helping with our company with getting the, the ammunition
15:39to the guys.
15:40Um, and I'd say the, the fighting for the guys that were in the positions was very heavy.
15:48Um, guys were going out to position in very cold temperatures.
15:54Um, we, so they were coming out from underground and manning.
15:57Yeah.
15:58So they were like the first line around the territory and.
16:01Cause most of you were out in the tunnels.
16:03I mean, in the bunkers and stuff underground, right?
16:05Yeah.
16:06I mean, a lot of it, like you lived like, like mice there.
16:10Like you, you, you stay underground as much as you can.
16:13Um, try to avoid going above ground because of the aviation and artillery.
16:19But I remember like in the first initial weeks of the encirclement, we had like a lot of artillery that
16:24we were like shooting back at with Russians.
16:27Um, and then obviously as the encirclement like continued and the territory started getting smaller, it got to the point
16:36where we didn't have anything to shoot back with.
16:38And by the first week of April, um, one of the neighboring units that was to our right flank, they
16:45had ended up surrendering, um, without telling, telling us anything.
16:51And it just exposed our entire right flank.
16:54Wow.
16:55Um, and once that had happened, it was pretty much gradually the end of the defense for that place because
17:01they, they took a really important part of our defense and they ended.
17:08I mean, I don't, I don't criticize them for it, but, um, because of that, like it allowed the Russians
17:13to gain advantage on our area.
17:16But I remember a few times we would be in the bunker and Russia, they, the aviation, they would drop
17:22a, uh, like a fab, like 500, which is like a 500 pound, uh, bomb, like above us.
17:29And the, the shockwave from it would just like come straight through the bunker, like knock everything out, like the,
17:36off the walls or panels on the, on the ceiling.
17:39So it would always like wake you up.
17:41What I do know is that during Mariupol, like from, from my friends and whatnot, who, who would return to
17:48collect supplies and stuff, the, the, the Russian infantry that were attacking them, they just resorted back to the, the
17:58Soviet mentality of just send people to a position.
18:03They fail, send people to a position.
18:05They fail, just keep sending people to a position.
18:07Um, and it's, it's a very inhumane method to fight a war like that.
18:17But the, the thing is that people need to understand Russia has the manpower to keep throwing bodies at a
18:23position.
18:24Um, so they don't need to use like tactics, like how we try to conserve like casualties or losses in
18:33the West with, with them.
18:35They can just throw bodies at a position until the position is exhausted and it's captured.
18:41Um, and then obviously once we got disconnected, it was just a matter of time until we all ended up
18:47being overwhelmed.
18:49Um, but when I, when I look back to Mariupol and I definitely see it as like, not, I don't,
18:57I don't see it as like a sort of like honor sort of way of thinking.
19:02I, I see it more of like, we, we bought Ukraine time.
19:06Well, I think it's a very important strategic understanding that it wasn't just a sort of diehard, pointlessly brave thing.
19:14It was a strategic, I was in Ukraine throughout this period.
19:17And of course it did mean that the Russian resources were focused there and not elsewhere.
19:21So inevitably it had significant, I think, um, strategic effect, but on a personal and tactical level, you then find
19:31yourself a prisoner of war of Putin's army.
19:38You must've thought they were going to shoot you on site.
19:40I mean, initially when, when I went to the surrender point, my, I was expecting them to shoot me.
19:46I had like this, like this small glimmer of like chance that I would survive it.
19:53And I remember we got taken to a filtration point just east outside of Mariupol, one of the towns that
19:59we had previously been to when we would be on our rotations and would get our supplies and posts.
20:05Um, I remember when we were there, we were being filtrated.
20:07So they were, they were taking us and they put us into stress positions, started taking down all the information.
20:14And obviously when they realized I was a foreigner, I was obviously the one that was interesting.
20:19Um, and I remember I got beat a few times, but it wasn't anything at that initial moment.
20:25It wasn't anything too drastic, like just rough handling.
20:29Um, and I was, I took it under the chin.
20:31I was like, okay, it's the frontline, like whatever.
20:34And it wasn't until that I was taken out for filtration.
20:38I was then taken to, uh, to Donetsk.
20:42And as I was being taken out of the, uh, the filtration place we're in, they put me in handcuffs
20:48and put me in an SUV.
20:50And they didn't, they didn't put a cover on my head for some reason.
20:54Um, they were like very quiet and normal with me.
20:58It was like really off putting.
21:00And I remember as we were driving out of the compound, um, one of the guys in the car turned
21:05to me and said like, oh, like now we're going to take you to be shot.
21:08And he said it in Russian.
21:10I just like stayed quiet and just processed it.
21:12And I was like, okay, like I was like thinking about my family and at the time my ex, uh,
21:17fiance and just processing everything.
21:19And I was like, okay, like, this is how, this is how it happens.
21:23And then it wasn't until like an hour into the drive.
21:26I was like, you don't take, so you don't drive for like an hour to take someone to be shot.
21:30If they were going to shoot me, they would have just shot me outside the town we were in.
21:34Um, so then I, I, I realized like we're now going somewhere else to the next stage of captivity.
21:40I, I kind of like expected that I was going to be tortured at some point.
21:46So for me, because of my research, it kind of helps in a way prepare for it.
21:51Uh, if you can call it that.
21:54Um, and I remember like that the two hours that we were driving, I just, I just kept telling to
21:59myself, like the next, the next step we're going to is going to be very violent.
22:04And it's going to hurt.
22:06And I don't know how I managed to like do it.
22:08I was just like dead silent with myself.
22:10It was like repeating over to myself.
22:12It's going to hurt.
22:13Like just try to focus.
22:16And I remember when eventually we got to Donetsk, um, I got taken out of the car.
22:22Um, the guys took the handcuffs off me and I immediately put my hands behind my back as like, um,
22:29to be, uh, obedient.
22:30Um, cause I didn't want to anger them.
22:34And this, this guy in a blue, uh, Russian uniform, he, he said something to me in Russian and he
22:42had the thickest accent and stank of, uh, alcohol.
22:46And me being me, I, I politely asked him if he could repeat what he said because I didn't understand.
22:52And as soon as he said that, as soon as I said that, he then beat me with a police
22:57baton.
22:58Um, initially I got hit across the forehead, I think first, and then I fell to the floor, beaten a
23:05few more times.
23:06And then I, I, I felt myself getting hit on my left shoulder.
23:11But at the time, um, I thought he had hit me on my left shoulder, but it turned out he'd
23:16actually stabbed me.
23:17He stabbed you?
23:18Yeah.
23:19Um.
23:19Was it like a frenzied attack?
23:21That sounds frenzied.
23:22I think it was more just like a welcoming, like, related here.
23:27Um, so he beat me and then he dragged me into this building and put me into this like side
23:32room.
23:33As soon as I got into there, they, they started asking me like who I am.
23:37Um, and I, I said like, um, Aiden Hazel, I'm a British citizen, like I'm serving in the Ukrainian military
23:42since 2013, uh, 2018.
23:46And then they, they would beat me.
23:48And then they would, again, they would ask me like, uh, like, like, what do I do?
23:53Why am I here?
23:54Um, and they never, they never asked me about like, about anything like related to Mariupol.
24:02It was just about why I'm here and it would drag on, but every, every answer I would give, they
24:09would beat me regardless.
24:11And then I remember they asked me to, to strip and show my tattoos and I've, I've got the Ukrainian
24:17Trident tattoo on here and they beat me for that, obviously.
24:21And then I had like a, I've got the happy days tattoo, which everyone would have seen when we were
24:26being paraded on propaganda.
24:29And they said that I was a sniper because of the reticle that's on it.
24:35And, uh, now I've got a YPG tattoo.
24:38That must have taken some explaining.
24:40So, so they, they pointed like, uh, they, they were beating me like after each ring.
24:45And then they pointed to that and they were like, what's this?
24:47And I was like, I was like, okay, I know what's coming next.
24:52And I was like, Syria on his, oh, you're Syria and beat me more.
24:57Um, and then they brought another guy in who they said was in Syria.
25:01He pulled out his knife and like held it up against my ear.
25:05And then he was asking me to tell who my commanders were in, in Syria.
25:09And I was like trying to explain to him this is, I don't know.
25:12It's like, it's like five years ago.
25:14Um, and I was like, I kept repeating like Kurd, Kurd, Kurd, like Kurdistan, Kurdistan.
25:19And then eventually one of them realized, cause initially they thought I was like fighting with ISIS.
25:24The FSA, which is even worse.
25:27So I thought, um, and then eventually one of the guys understood Kurdistan and he realized I was with the
25:33Kurds.
25:34And I remember there was like this sort of like dumbfounded, uh, like moment where this is, oh, no, it's,
25:39it's with the Kurds.
25:40But, but there were the Americans.
25:43Another excuse.
25:44So they beat me, uh, harder for that.
25:47Um, and then eventually it stopped.
25:50And by this point, like I've been knocked unconscious.
25:52I've been, I've been stabbed.
25:55Like I, I, I can feel myself like losing consciousness again.
25:58And the beating just wasn't stopping.
26:01And eventually, um, did you do something psychologically to kind of, was there a way you could step away from
26:08that pain?
26:08Well, when, when it was initially happening, um, it, it sounds really weird.
26:13I don't know why it played in my head because I hadn't seen the film in like over a year.
26:18Um, but, um, the film Goodfellas, for some reason, while I was getting beaten, um, there's the quote by, uh,
26:28the main character where he's getting beat by his dad.
26:32And he says like every once in a while, you have to take a beating.
26:36I suppose it was like my subconscious, like just trying to help.
26:40Did it help?
26:41I mean, when I think back to the beating, like it was probably the best beating I've taken in my
26:46life.
26:46But there's also a part of it that's like the adrenaline is helping to a degree.
26:51So it, it doesn't hurt.
26:53I mean, it hurts, but it's not as, it's not as painful.
26:56Like when you think of being tortured, um, you'd only understand it if, if, if you went for it.
27:04I mean, it might be different opinion from other people, but for me, it, it was terrifying.
27:11And I, it was probably just my inner subconscious, just trying to make a grasp of the situation and to
27:21basically help me in some psychological capacity.
27:27Um, and I, I remember, uh, I, I could feel myself losing consciousness again.
27:33And eventually, uh, one of the other Russians came in and told him, I, I remember very fondly, he came
27:40in and said, stop, stop, you're going to kill him.
27:44And it stopped.
27:46And mind you, the guy who's been beating me, like he, he, he probably loves his job because now he's
27:52getting to be a foreigner.
27:54And at one point, like he stopped, he was having a cigarette and he, he asked me, like, do I
28:00know who he is?
28:01And I was like, no.
28:03And he says, um, I'm your deaf.
28:06Um, you have to voice me.
28:10And he asked, uh, like, uh, do you want a beautiful deaf or do you want a quick deaf?
28:16And obviously I, I wanted a quick deaf.
28:18And he said, no, you're going to have a beautiful deaf.
28:21And I was fully expecting to be murdered at that point.
28:26Um, and obviously when this Russian came in and said, stop, stop, you're going to kill him.
28:31I knew it must've been bad if he, if his superior had to stop him.
28:36And when he stopped him, he says, okay, like, do you want to talk now?
28:40And I was like, yeah, yeah.
28:42And took me into the room next door and, um, sat down and he was like, uh, he looked at
28:50my, uh, stab wound and looks just like, don't worry.
28:54Like, we'll have a medic, like check you over, which never happened.
28:58Um, and basically, then we went from the beating to now the autobiography.
29:06Where basically I had to tell about my entire life history, how I ended up in Ukraine.
29:12And I remember he, he asked me, um, like, are you SAS?
29:16And I, I just basically said to him, I was like, dude, like, do I look like MSAS?
29:21And he was like, okay, good point.
29:23And he says like, are you working for MI6?
29:26And I was like, again, like, I'm a private in the mortar company as an assistant gunner.
29:33Like, why, why would I be in this position if, if I'm intelligence?
29:37And then the next morning I was taken out to see the, uh, prosecutors that were investigating me.
29:43They, the, basically the way they were pushing it was that I was like here for mercenary activities.
29:49That I was, um, the organizer of bringing foreigners and whatnot.
29:56Um, everything that the Russian propaganda said about me, like, they make me sound like, like this.
30:03I don't know, like this super soldier.
30:07And I mean.
30:08Flattering.
30:09Yeah, it's, it's, it's flattering to me because like, if all my friends, like, if they, if they read that
30:14and they, they, they saw that, like, what the hell?
30:16Like, this is, this is Aiden.
30:19So, um, yeah.
30:21Um, and then, obviously as it, as it goes on, um, we, we, I get taken out to be brought
30:30in front of, like, various, like, uh, journalists.
30:35The more infamous one, especially for people in Britain, is the Graham Phillips one.
30:40Graham Phillips is a fake journalist.
30:42Yeah.
30:43Um, and again, like, I remember when the Graham Phillips happened, um, because I'd done, I knew a lot about
30:50the conflicts in Ukraine.
30:51I'd researched it a lot and I'd followed it from the very weekend and I knew full, fully who Graham
30:56Phillips was.
30:57And I remember when I was sat in that room and I heard, heard people in the, in the hallway
31:04and I heard his, his voice.
31:06I was like, oh God, not, not this guy because he, he speaks in such a, he, he, he speaks
31:13Russian.
31:14Um, but the way he speaks it is like very, he has a very heavy British accent and obviously he
31:21came in and again, he went straight into the propaganda narrative of like,
31:27how I'm a mercenary and he then added the comment of like, since we're all nice people, we're going to
31:33follow the Geneva convention rules.
31:37Um, which I, I thought was ironic at the time because like literally we were in a place where people
31:43were being tortured.
31:44Um, and he, he knew.
31:46Did you know of anybody dying under torture?
31:48I mean, could you hear other people going through the same?
31:51Um, like in, in my cell, like it, it wasn't just military.
31:55You got, you had civilians, you had, uh, at one point we had a, uh, disabled man who, who probably,
32:04probably didn't have the capacity to be able to live independently or do anything himself.
32:12He couldn't walk and, uh, they just threw him in with us and, uh, he basically just laid in the
32:20corner, like under the bench, like urinating and desiccating on himself.
32:26And there's not much that we can do to try and help him over.
32:29And then when, uh, when they would tell us that they'll come out of the cell so they can clean
32:34it, we would have to carry him.
32:36Um, but again, like we're in this situation where we can't help someone that obviously needs help.
32:41Um, so that they, they, they don't, the, the, the best way I can describe the justice system is like
32:49barbarism.
32:50Um, we didn't realize at the time and we had one guard who was incredibly sadistic.
32:56He just loved terrorizing or beating like the prisoners.
33:01Um, and he would come on shift.
33:03Like we nicknamed him three to Terry, which is three, four.
33:07And in, in Russian three to cherry is like, uh, like three, two, one.
33:13Uh, right.
33:14And he would come on shift and he would shout three to Terry.
33:18And every time he shouts it, everyone on the block has to start singing the Russian anthem.
33:23Or he would come on shift and he would just randomly start shouting, uh, Selensky.
33:29And then everyone would have to say like, which is a derogative in English.
33:35It would say Putin and then president of, of the whole world.
33:39We would have to say in Russian.
33:41Um, and it wasn't until June when we went to court in the so-called people that the next people's
33:49Republic, um, closed court, obviously, um, pretty Soviet underground basement, no press.
33:58Um, and me, Sean and Ibrahim, we were on this case and it got started.
34:05And the, the judge decided to, to ask us like, since this case may carry the death sentence, would you
34:12like to, uh, to bring on two additional judges because of the severity of the punishment you're saving?
34:21And, um, and we kind of figured, okay, like, sure.
34:24And then suddenly they had like two, two judges that were just like ready for us.
34:28Yeah.
34:29Um, which obviously wasn't planned.
34:32Um, and, and we initially, we initially tried to defend ourself, um, using logic.
34:40Um, we, we brought up, uh, I said to Sean and Ibrahim, let's, let's, let's mention international law, the Geneva
34:47Convention.
34:49And I, I remember we, we pleaded guilty to the terror charge that they put on us because, because we
34:57went to military basic training.
34:59Um, that was terrorist training and then they said, we were attempting to overthrow the next constitutional republic.
35:07Um, that was another charge which carried the death sentence, but we didn't think it was that severe.
35:15Um, and then the other charge, which was the mercenary charge, which carried a sentence of seven years.
35:21Like we, we pled not guilty on the mercenary charge because we knew legally, like we, we have the protection,
35:27we have the evidence to say we're not mercenaries.
35:30And so we pleaded not guilty to that.
35:32We'll plead the guilty to the first two.
35:34And as soon as we did that, like everyone in the courtroom sort of like, you could see they were
35:39disgruntled, um, and were like confused.
35:42And we, we asked if we can speak to our like advocate, like who wasn't really an, he wasn't really
35:49a lawyer.
35:49He just seemed to go along with whatever was going along.
35:54And, uh, he came over to us just like, why would you say that?
35:57Like, why did you say that?
35:58And I says like, we're not mercenaries under international law, like the Geneva Convention.
36:02And he says like international law doesn't exist here.
36:05And then as soon as he said that, that's when we realized like that there's no point trying to fight
36:11this.
36:11Like they, we're not going to win.
36:14Like there's, there's no, there's no, there's no way we can win this because they're saying one thing regardless of
36:22like everything.
36:23And how soon before they convicted and sentenced you?
36:26Um, so we, we initially went there like for the first two days while we talked about the whole case.
36:33And then it was on the third day that they gave us our sentencing.
36:38And then as soon as I heard that they were sentencing to us to death, I was like totally like
36:44lost my, I didn't know how to process it.
36:47Cause like the, I was trying to use like Western logic with the way they think.
36:54And it just threw me off completely.
36:56And now that I've been sentenced to death, I, I figured that they would have to do it if they
37:02didn't want to look weak.
37:03Having committed actions against the constitutional order of the Donetsk People's Republic and attempting to overthrow the government by force,
37:11it is justified and objective to hand down the highest possible punishment, the death sentence.
37:17I was hoping the sentence would be a lot fair judging the circumstances in which I helped the investigation.
37:23And also because I surrendered to the Donetsk People's Republic.
37:29I wish it could be different, but God will be the one that would judge me when the time comes.
37:34Your emotional state had started to go downhill in those last days, just before you were sentenced?
37:41Um, yes.
37:42How badly?
37:43I mean, just, just before that this, the court had happened, uh, the three or four days prior, uh, I
37:50witnessed a POW in my prison be beat to death.
37:54Um, once they charged me and I was getting ready to go to court, I was then sent to a
38:01place called Donetsk, uh, CISO.
38:04Like CISO, like in English is like pre-trial detention, uh, center.
38:09So at this point I was like, okay, like maybe, maybe it's normal here.
38:12Maybe we've got past the, the tough part.
38:15Um, and we then got placed into like a small holding cell to be taken to our prison block.
38:21And I, I remember they, they eventually came for three of the guys that were in the cell with me.
38:28They came out, they put bags on their head and then the door closed.
38:32And then all you hear is like the, the guards like shouting at them, like laying on the floor.
38:36And then you start to hear them get beat.
38:40And, uh, they, when then being shouted at to follow the commands and they basically had to crawl.
38:47And while they're crawling, you can hear them being beat.
38:50Weird.
38:50Yeah.
38:52Um, and then they eventually, they, the, the screams disappeared and then they came back
38:58and opened the door and then they, they said, I mean, I was like, oh fuck, like I've got,
39:03I've got to be beaten next.
39:04Um, they, they put a bag on my head.
39:07As soon as they put the bag on my head, like they, they do the same process.
39:10They, they shout at me to lay down and he asked, do you speak Russian?
39:15I was like, yes.
39:18And then he like started beating me and started like giving me directions.
39:22So you had to like crawl on in prone and he was like saying period, like forward, um, and just
39:31followed it.
39:31And as he's saying, it's like, he's beating, beating me in the back with like a, uh, police baton.
39:37Um, and because I'd heard what they were going through the first time, I kind of like, like was like
39:43really quick and like trying to do it because I didn't want to end up getting into a situation where
39:49I, I, I make them more angry.
39:51So I was trying to do exactly as they say.
39:53And I remember we went down a sort of like stairway.
39:59I presume it was like some sort of tunnel under the prison complex, but I remember I went downstairs and
40:05then upstairs.
40:06But again, this is going back to my like probably coping mechanism with being in that sort of environment.
40:14As I was going down the stairs, um, I, I had like this random, like four as I was being
40:20beaten.
40:21Um, cause he, he kept beating me like on my back and, but mostly on my ass.
40:27And I had this like random thought that just pops into my head.
40:30I was like, it's a good thing.
40:31I like BDSM.
40:34So again, it's like, it's my way of like coping with the situation.
40:38And then we get to the top of the stairs.
40:40He tells me to stand up and then puts me into like a, from what I know, it's called the
40:44dolphin position.
40:45It's like, you're like hunched over, like really far off, off balance.
40:49And they take me to, they take me forward.
40:53And then they stop me.
40:54They open a cell door and in the cell, it's like literally four meters by four meters.
41:00There's two, two beds.
41:03I lay down.
41:04I can tell we're in like a basement sort of like, uh, isolation.
41:10Um, so, and then, uh, another guy arrives and then another guy arrives and then another guy arrives.
41:17And now we have like four people in the two men, uh, cell.
41:22Um, the guards then say, uh, they tell us the, the schedule.
41:27We wake up at 6am.
41:29Um, you stand up, you're not allowed to sit down.
41:32You're not allowed to lay down on the bed.
41:34If, if you get caught, you're going to be punished.
41:37Um, and then they also pointed to a piece of paper on the wall with the Russian anthem.
41:42They said, you have two day, no full, for the Ukrainians.
41:46They said they have till tomorrow to learn the Russian anthem with me.
41:51They, as nice people, as much good people.
41:55They are, they gave me like a week to learn it.
41:58So is this what led to the murder of this prisoner?
42:02Who was the prisoner?
42:03So when, when we, so as I mentioned, when we, when we arrived to this prison, everyone gets beaten, like
42:08on this, like sort of gauntlet to your prison cell.
42:12Um, and then we heard him being beaten, like starting the gauntlet.
42:15Uh, and we, we then realized that the beatings has been going on now for a lot, a lot longer
42:21than it should have.
42:22And it just continues.
42:24And now it's probably like more than like 30 minutes, 40 minutes.
42:29And from the processing area to our cell block, it's like probably less than like 200 meters.
42:36And we realized something's wrong.
42:38And eventually you can start to hear him getting closer and closer, but it's like voices getting weaker.
42:44And eventually they opened the cell door next to us.
42:47Um, and he, he goes in and I remember he, the, the guard like said to him, was telling him
42:54the rules.
42:55Like he says, uh, telling the guys there to help cleaning, clean him up, like tell him like everything that
43:01he needs to know.
43:02And then he says, like, do you understand?
43:04And then there was no response.
43:06And then he said, um, like, what are you sleeping?
43:09And then started beating him.
43:10And then when he started beating him, there was just like, no, there was no like, uh, uh, there was
43:16no like response from like grunts or anything.
43:20So at that point we knew something was wrong.
43:23Um, and then after like, probably like 20 hits, like he stopped and he told, told the guys like clean
43:29him up and the door closed.
43:32And it just like went silent.
43:34And then we're just like, tried to do what we normally do.
43:38Just sat thinking about stuff.
43:41And then probably like 10, 10 minutes went by.
43:45And then all of a sudden you just hear banging on the door from the cell next door.
43:49And they're shouting for the DiGiorni, which is like the chief of the, uh, the prison block.
43:55We're, we're terrified because like the one thing you never do there is you never try to get the attention
44:01of the guards.
44:02Yeah.
44:03Um, you try to just keep that contact minimal as, as much as possible.
44:07And they're now like banging and making all this sound like we know something's definitely wrong.
44:13Um, and then maybe after like 10 minutes, the guard comes back and asks them like, what's wrong?
44:19And then we hear him say that he stopped breathing and they, they need a medic.
44:25And he says, okay.
44:27And then he went away for like 10 minutes and probably like 15 minutes went by.
44:35Uh, eventually the, the, the prison medic came and they, they took them out of the cell.
44:42Moved them into another cell.
44:44And then we were like trying to listen to what, what the medic was saying.
44:48Um, and then eventually she went into the corridor and she asked, uh, one of the prison guards what the
44:54time was.
44:54And she said like, time of death, like so-and-so.
44:57And then we realized like, obviously he died.
45:00Um, so when I went to the court, I had just witnessed that like my mental state was already going
45:07down, down the pan.
45:08And then I got sentenced to death and that just took away all like, all like four of like logic
45:18and everything else.
45:19And I remember when I got back to the prison after the call, I was in my cell and I,
45:25I, I so desperately wanted to cry.
45:28Like I was trying to force myself to cry to just like, let some emotion out.
45:33But because we were, I was too terrified in that place.
45:36I wasn't able to cry.
45:38And for out the, the next like five and a half months of captivity, like I never cried once.
45:45There was moments where I wanted to cry, but I just physically couldn't because I was both like mentally exhausted.
45:53And it just wasn't possible for me.
45:55And one of the mistakes that Russia did was they tortured me, like beat me up and put me on
46:01camera the next day.
46:02And then there was like international outcry about it.
46:05And I think there was some sort of order placed by the FSB guys that kept coming with the propagandists.
46:14Like that was placed on me, like, like don't rough him up too much.
46:17I mean, I still got beat, but it wasn't like it was the first time.
46:21Like other guys got it a lot worse than me.
46:24The only reason they didn't beat me as much is because they, they need me to like look healthy.
46:29I was mentally exhausted of like doing this, like, like propaganda, like saying stuff that I know is like, like
46:36false.
46:37So by this point in late August, I got taken out of the cell with the Ukrainians and placed into
46:42a separate cell.
46:44Originally by myself, they moved me on a Sunday when there's normally no movement.
46:48And it was late at night at like 9pm.
46:50I was completely terrified because I thought maybe like, oh, they're preparing me to be shot the next day or
46:56something.
46:57Um, so I was on my own and then the door opened and, um, they, they threw in another foreigner,
47:05Prebek, a Croatian guy who was in my battalion.
47:08And we were trying to figure out like, like, why have we been put together?
47:12And we, we had no clue about what's going on.
47:16We had like all sorts of like thoughts about, are they planning for an exchange?
47:19Are they planning to like execute us or stuff like that?
47:25And we would later learn because, um, we realized that when we were being given our food, they had to
47:32make a call for, for a special person to come and give the key to unlock our food tray.
47:38So the guards on our, on our, on our block didn't have access to us like they would normally.
47:44Um, so we figured something, something was going on and we then realized that a order had been placed on
47:50all the foreigners that were in captivity to basically keep them in protective custody so that nothing happens to them.
47:58Um, they would still get beat, uh, at least the others, when they went out of their cell, they would
48:03still get beat sometimes.
48:06Um, but there was a protective order on us that nothing can happen to us because it was around that
48:11time, uh, a few days prior to Prebek coming to my cell that there was a British, uh, citizen, Yuri
48:20Paul, who was a NGO, um, like humanitarian that was working in Ukraine to help evacuate people.
48:27They, they, he ended up getting captured by the Russians after accidentally driving down a wrong road into a Russian
48:34checkpoint, uh, along with, uh, another British citizen.
48:39Um, and during his time in captivity, he was repeatedly tortured and then eventually he died because of those injuries.
48:47Um, so what, as soon as that happened, they, there was some sort of order on all foreigners being put
48:53into protective custody.
48:54Um, and what was ironic for me is because we didn't realize at the time and we had one God
49:01who was incredibly sadistic.
49:03He just loved terrorizing or beating like the prisoners.
49:07Um, I'm very, very like down, depressed.
49:11Um, and I ended up finding a razor in the bars of the window that we were in.
49:17Um, and I, I, I would lay on my bed at night, like for the next couple of nights, just
49:22like, just staring at the top of my bunk, like just trying to argue or contemplate.
49:28Like, like I should just, just like slice, slice my wrists and end it.
49:33Um, cause I was tired of the, the propaganda, like BS.
49:38Um, um, I'm tired of like being forced to do like all this stuff that I don't want to do.
49:42Um, and I was so close to doing it.
49:45And the only reason I chose not to do it was because I was afraid of what would happen to
49:50my friend Prydrick because he was in the cell with me.
49:53Um, and my logic was that if, if, if I do this and then he wakes up and sees me
49:58lying there dead, then not only is it going to be bad for him, but then what's going to happen
50:04to him when the Russians find out that they might turn around and say to him, you were in the
50:09cell with me, usually responsible.
50:11Yeah.
50:11Um, so, um, he was the only reason I chose not to do it, thankfully.
50:16And I'm glad I, I didn't have the balls to do it because if I had done it, I would
50:22have, if there is an afterlife and I was able to observe everything after I would have been, I would
50:28have regretted it so much.
50:30Yes.
50:30A week later, we got taken out to be exchanged.
50:34Wow.
50:34Was it a week, a week later?
50:37What was it like that moment when you were exchanged and you realized you were actually free of the Russians?
50:42I mean, initially when we got taken out, I thought I was just being taken out to go do propaganda
50:47again, like while, while I was in this place, I would get taken out like three to four times a
50:52week.
50:53Um, I've memorized the entire layout of, of the prison from where I'm taken to, to the room where I
50:59do it and the processing area.
51:01And they, they took us out, go down the same path that I've walked a million times.
51:06And, um, as we get into the turning where we should go for the propaganda stuff, we walked past it.
51:13And then this is when I started to panic because I've never been down this path.
51:17And like, now I'm getting really scared because I don't know what's coming next.
51:21And we'd always heard people like screaming, being tortured aside from the, the beatings that they get when they arrive.
51:27We heard, we heard what sounded like people being electrocuted, um, with the tasers and stuff.
51:33So we presume maybe we're being taken there now and they, they took us, then they placed
51:39us into like this small cell, sat down and then they, they brought us out one by one.
51:45And he took me around the corner and got his phone out, um, and basically said like, uh, like
51:53we've, we've given you water, we've given you food.
51:55Like we've not, we've not, uh, we've not, uh, committed violence against you.
52:02I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
52:03This is September.
52:04It was just shortly after the queen died.
52:08Um, we get taken out to sign some paperwork and I'm signing some paperwork.
52:13And one of the guards, like that attitude at this moment had completely changed from, you,
52:18you could never look at the, the guards.
52:20You always had to keep your head down.
52:21If you looked at the guard, they would beat you.
52:23And at this point it completely changed.
52:25They were super relaxed.
52:26Like they were telling us to follow them.
52:28It wasn't like before where they were like presiding us, um, and signing this paperwork.
52:34And one of the guards like looks at me and says, uh, like, like, did you hear about, uh,
52:39the queen?
52:40And I was like, uh, yeah, like I heard it.
52:44We had it on the propaganda radio and I said, like, I heard about it and he didn't say anything
52:50bad.
52:50Like I was expecting him to say like some sadistic, you know, some derogative comment, but he didn't
52:56say anything.
52:57So that got me confused and eventually we get taken out, uh, they put bags on our head.
53:03Um, we get ushered out and we, they take a bag off.
53:09There's like this guy in series, like with a list and he's like asking us our name and
53:14whatnot, takes a photo.
53:16Um, they take the bag off and then we, we go to the back of this truck.
53:21Like if I can see one, some sort of highway and then we arrive to an airport and I know
53:27it's an airport because I can hear, I just can't tell if it's a civilian airport, if it's
53:31a military airport.
53:32And then I realized it's a civilian airport because I see civilian passenger planes.
53:38Um, they drive onto the territory and once we go into the airport terminal, um, they one
53:44by one, they, the military police started cutting off our duct tape that we had.
53:49And I remember the, they cut off my one and even though I could see like a little bit,
53:54like, um, I haven't been able to see properly for like the past, like 20 hours.
54:00And I remember when he, when he took it off, like this, this, this bright glaring light and
54:05just, this like Russian guy in a balaclava, like just looking at me and I'm like, okay,
54:11like what's going on?
54:12And then they told us to get in a line.
54:14We got on a line again and in submission, like just with like one hand file, they took
54:21us out to the tarmac and we got onto a, uh, like airport transfer bus, got on our knees
54:29and we're driving over and I'm at the front and the, the military police is like saying
54:36like when we stop, like you do exactly as I tell you to, if you don't do otherwise, you're
54:42going to get tasered.
54:44And as we're driving, we're driving around to this like airport, that's just, uh, to this
54:48airplane that's on the tarmac and we can see it.
54:51So like we, we realize we're being exchanged at this point.
54:55And then once we clear like Russian airspace, we're going to fly to Raghad in Saudi Arabia.
55:01Um, and then you'll be taken to a hospital and then we can organize like reuniting you
55:06with your families later.
55:08And I think it was probably one, once we were in the air and we realized that like we're
55:14going home.
55:15That's like when, when I realized like it's over and it wasn't until when we took off that
55:22I realized we were no longer where we were like literally 24 hours before, because as we
55:27were taking off, um, we could smell people smoking cigarettes and I, I gestured to the
55:34security guy, like, like, do you have a cigarette?
55:37And he was like, Oh, a cigarette.
55:40And then he like just gave us.
55:41And then as soon as he pulled out the cigarettes, like everyone spotted the cigarettes and like
55:45now he's like giving cigarettes out to all of us.
55:48And we started like smoking on this like Saudi, like airline, uh, on this plane.
55:54Um, and I remember they came in with a bag with like fresh clothes and toiletries.
56:02Um, and I, I went to the, to the toilet to just try to just clean myself a bit and
56:07just
56:07have a, like a bird shower.
56:09Um, and I remember looking at myself in the mirror and just like thinking to myself, like
56:15it, it doesn't feel like reality.
56:18Like I just see a void, um, and I think, I think it was like I realized it was over,
56:27but
56:29it still hadn't fully set in.
56:30I was probably in a state of shock at this time, which ended up lasting for a couple of
56:35weeks.
56:35But I remember when we landed in, in, uh, Rihad, uh, we got taken off the plane.
56:41And we got taken the good given emergency, like visas.
56:44And at that point I was by myself with, with the foreign representatives and I met the foreign
56:48office people.
56:49And I remember sitting down and I think like after like six months of like not being able
56:54to cry, I just like broke down.
56:57Like when the reality like set in that, like, like no longer where I was.
57:01And it was like, I think it was like such a relief for me as well, because like it was
57:08the first time I was able to cry and there was no fear of being beaten or anything.
57:13And it was, it was like such a relief, like emotionally and physically, because it, it's
57:20something I've been wanting to do for such a long time.
57:22And now I can finally do it.
57:25Um, did you feel human again?
57:27Uh, yeah.
57:28How long did that take before you started to feel you were really free?
57:33I would say for the next like three and a half weeks, like my mind was still in a state
57:39of shock.
57:40Everything didn't feel real.
57:41It felt sort of like a bubble.
57:44Um, it took like three and a half weeks for it to, to slowly go away.
57:49And how long before you decided to come back to Ukraine?
57:52Um, I first came back to Ukraine.
57:55Oh, I first tried to come back to Ukraine in, in October, literally less than.
58:02Um, less than like three, four weeks after I got back to Britain.
58:06Cause at this point, mind you, I've lived in Ukraine for the past, like four years before
58:10that.
58:11Yeah.
58:11It's home for you, I guess.
58:12Yeah.
58:13I had, I had a house there and whatnot.
58:15So when did you actually go back and rejoin the military?
58:18In June, 2023, I drove over from the UK and I came back to Ukraine, uh, in June.
58:27And I remember when I crossed the border, I remember crying again, just cause like, I
58:32remember the emotion of like the last time I was being in Ukraine was when I was in captivity.
58:37But what you've seen of the Russians?
58:40Yeah.
58:40What I've seen from the Russians, I think they can be beaten.
58:43I think they can be beaten.
58:45Um, we, I think we have the means to exhaust the economy, which we, we are seeing now, obviously
58:53it's not going to be overnight thing, but it, at some point it's going to give.
58:57And so you think there's a fragility in the command?
59:00Yeah, the, the grasp is, the grasp is weakening.
59:03There's a lot of things that are showing that Russia is becoming a lot more destabilized.
59:09They will end up in my personal wishful thinking scenario would be they just collapse.
59:17Um, but I, I think realistically they will find a way to get out of this and save face
59:24within their own internal, um, population.
59:27Well, let's hope you're right.
59:29Yeah.
59:29Aidan, it's been a pleasure.
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