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00:00:16Welcome to the show, everybody.
00:00:18I hope you enjoy what happens here over the next hour or so.
00:00:21To find out who our first guest is,
00:00:23let me hand you over to our MC for the evening,
00:00:25the beautiful Fred Cook.
00:00:27Thank you, Tommy.
00:00:28Well, our first guest is Charlotte Church.
00:00:37Hello.
00:00:38Hello.
00:00:41Hello, my lovely.
00:00:42I'm very, very happy to meet you.
00:00:44It's good to meet you too, Tommy.
00:00:48I saw you in the newspaper recently
00:00:56talking about being an earth mother
00:00:58or something.
00:00:59Yes.
00:00:59I've always liked you.
00:01:02And I'm curious about that adventure that you're going on.
00:01:05Yeah.
00:01:06Oh, well, I mean, I suppose it's been
00:01:11much like these things in life do sort of organically grow.
00:01:15Yeah.
00:01:16It's just been a sort of a very natural journey for me of an awakening to nature,
00:01:24an awakening to the interconnected relationships that this existence is.
00:01:30And just, yeah, a growing awareness of all of the beauty and complexity and delight in really living a life
00:01:41more aligned with nature.
00:01:43Can you remind us of how you first came into the public eye?
00:01:50Yeah, sure.
00:01:51And what happened?
00:01:55So, I first came into the public eye when I was 12.
00:01:59My first album was called Voice of an Angel.
00:02:02And I sort of sang a lot of religious Celtic music.
00:02:13Samaria's, you know, sort of classical crossover.
00:02:16And it just went mental for me overnight.
00:02:19I feel like, you know, literally I was plucked from obscurity.
00:02:26Like, it was like a proper fairy tale in a way.
00:02:29So, somebody saw you somewhere and said, that girl...
00:02:33Somebody saw me somewhere and one thing led to another, led to another, led to another.
00:02:37And I got signed to Sony.
00:02:39And so, and then I had a period of four years of, like, hardcore commercialisation where I was properly commodified
00:02:49and, like, absolutely in the centre, like, right in the beating heart of the capitalist machine.
00:02:57And, and, and we were really green and naive.
00:03:02And, uh, this was totally beyond any, like, mine or my parents, obviously mine, but my parents as well,
00:03:09who would live normal working class lives in South Wales.
00:03:12My mother worked for the council and my dad put up screens on council properties that weren't, um, uh, occupied.
00:03:21Yeah.
00:03:22And, yeah, so it was, um, wow.
00:03:25It was a very, very different sort of lifestyle for us then.
00:03:30And we went on a very extreme learning journey, I would say.
00:03:35Even, you know, to, to dealing with, uh, cultural differences around working, um, and children working in different places.
00:03:43Like, I remember when we were in Japan and, um, like, the, the schedule that they had for me to
00:03:48do.
00:03:48My mother was like, that's insane.
00:03:50There's no way she can work that much.
00:03:53And, do you know what I mean?
00:03:54So whether it was, like, cultural of us, like, going all over the world, um, but then also, you know,
00:04:03trying to figure out the boundaries,
00:04:05the boundaries with press, the boundaries with a conglomerate corporation.
00:04:08Like, my parents had this almost impossible task of trying to protect me and trying to advise me in the
00:04:18situation they had no idea about either.
00:04:21What, what do you think was being sold?
00:04:23Um, oh, interesting.
00:04:25What was being sold?
00:04:26I'm not sure if that's for me really to, well, maybe it is.
00:04:31I suppose that, that version, that, that, Innocence, Innocence was being sold.
00:04:37Oh.
00:04:41What are you thinking, Tommy?
00:04:42I'm thinking fucking hell, like.
00:04:48That's one of the most shocking things.
00:04:51Mm.
00:04:51Innocence was being sold.
00:04:53Because it was, wasn't it?
00:04:54It was just beautiful young girl with this voice and, uh,
00:04:59uh, pre-sexual, or something, whatever that, whatever that phrase is, or whatever, uh.
00:05:11Wow.
00:05:11Mm.
00:05:12Wow.
00:05:13Mm.
00:05:15But also, like, there was a whole narrative in the ways of, of how they treated my mother.
00:05:20Um, and so when I was 14, I, I was embroiled in a really big court case with my manager
00:05:25at the time.
00:05:27Yeah.
00:05:27And then everything changed, and my mother became the Welsh dragon.
00:05:30My mother became, like, the evil woman who was greedy, who was trying to control everything.
00:05:36And, um, and then when I was 16, and then started to behave like a normal teenager, go out with
00:05:42my friends, experiment, um, have boyfriends, then that was the, the whole, sort of, angelic fall from grace.
00:05:50So, so when the, when you started to kind of, um, develop your kind of teenage musculature, I don't mean
00:06:01physically, but I mean, you're kind of your, well, that probably as well, but I mean, you're kind of, you
00:06:05know, the search for adventure as a teenager, real adventure with people your own age.
00:06:10Yeah.
00:06:10What, what stopped business-wise then?
00:06:14What stopped business-wise was my, uh, the, the, the, all I wanted to do was be relevant to my
00:06:22peers.
00:06:23And I wasn't interested, or at least it felt like embarrassing then for me to be doing this sort of
00:06:29music that I didn't connect with anymore.
00:06:32And, um, for me, I was like, just obsessed with black music.
00:06:37Like, I loved gospel and D'Angelo and Jill Scott and, um, all the music that was coming out of
00:06:43Philadelphia and, um, and I, but I, and I also loved indie.
00:06:47I loved lots of different genres, but really it was all of that new soul movement at the time that
00:06:52I was absolutely in love with.
00:06:53And so, uh, then that was the music that I was then going to try and make.
00:06:58Um, but it didn't really work because then...
00:07:00Were you able to push it all away and say, leave me alone for a few years now, um, there's
00:07:07some money saved or whatever, leave me alone?
00:07:11Yeah, I suppose that what happened then was that I, um, hmm, I took myself away and had babies.
00:07:21So I had my first baby at 21.
00:07:24You know, once I'd done the pop stuff and then I had, then I'd sort of started going into more...
00:07:29Was it like, were you thinking, I'd love some babies?
00:07:31No, I just met, I met a specimen of a human who was a rugby player and literally something in
00:07:38my body went, let's procreate immediately.
00:07:39Oh, you, you're incredibly, incredible looking.
00:07:44And, uh, and I followed my body.
00:07:48Good woman, wow.
00:07:49And, um, had two beautiful babies.
00:07:51Yeah.
00:07:52And, and, and, and so it was a beautiful time.
00:07:56I was high.
00:07:57I was high as balls when I, when I was in, in, in that early mother world.
00:08:02I mean, I just loved it.
00:08:03Yeah.
00:08:04That's a great phrase.
00:08:04We've never heard it before.
00:08:05Yeah.
00:08:06High as balls.
00:08:08Haven't you?
00:08:09I was, I was totally just wandering around, like, just absolutely on a cloud, on cloud nine, just like, my,
00:08:17my pupil, you know, your pupil, because there's literally so much oxytocin, the love hormone.
00:08:21Yeah.
00:08:22When a baby is born, the, you know, your pupils are dilated and such, you know, it's mental, like everybody
00:08:28looks like they're on drugs.
00:08:29Wow. Um, did you become a character as far as the British media were concerned?
00:08:36Yes. For some reason, it was in their interest to present me like a, like an airheaded Welsh.
00:08:44It's really interesting, actually. I've, it's only through, through going through the Leveson inquiry and reflecting on it again more
00:08:51recently, you know, so many of the slurs and such that came from the British press were around my Welshness.
00:08:57And, well, people were told, what, she's crazy, she's a drunk, she's a druggie, she's...
00:09:03Yeah, she's out of control, like, she's, um, uh, I don't know, I, I, I suppose the things that, for
00:09:12me, the messaging that, that I feel that were, that people had about me was that I, um, was a
00:09:20party girl, that I was an airhead, um, that I was just, like, really thick and stupid and should just
00:09:26stick to singing.
00:09:27Um, or just, like, getting my kit off, um, and, uh, like, not, like, not be commenting on anything else,
00:09:36like, like, who, who would ever listen to her?
00:09:38She's like a tart, who is, um, uh, yeah, only, who is, who is this, like, has-been singer.
00:09:47So, I felt like the whole has-been narrative as well was, was around from when I was quite young,
00:09:55too.
00:09:56So, was there, like, paparazzi stuff for the people selling videos and photos they're taking of you?
00:10:01Yeah, absolutely, so, and, and, you know, my, my mother, particularly, has and continues to be so horrendously, um, uh,
00:10:15affected by that, affected by what she went through at the hands of the press, um.
00:10:21Because they're a force that's bigger than the individual, and if they turn on you, you-
00:10:25Oh, my gosh, I mean-
00:10:26You will suffer.
00:10:27You will. I mean, I'm, it, it, it is, I've, I've called it a psychological grinder in the past, and
00:10:33that's what it is.
00:10:33Like, it is really, you are psychologically just put through the mill.
00:10:39I mean, and there's all sorts of, like, and so much of it is built on shame.
00:10:46And so, you know, I cannot tell you the feeling of, um, certainly for me, I can't speak from my
00:10:54mother,
00:10:54but for me, having, uh, being a teenager and having just found out that your first boyfriend has been paid
00:11:05£100,000 to sell a sex story on you, you know?
00:11:09And I was 17, maybe, maybe 18, maybe 18 by that point.
00:11:15And, and getting that phone call that that's what's going to be out on, on a, on the next Sunday,
00:11:21even now, as I, as I'm thinking about it, I feel sick to my stomach.
00:11:25Um, and then, you know, there was other stories.
00:11:28My father had an affair.
00:11:29That was how my mother found out.
00:11:31Um, and it was, uh, you know, um, uh, the, the woman who we'd had an affair with.
00:11:37It was her story.
00:11:38And that, my mother's mental health was already on the floor.
00:11:42And, um, so I, yeah, I just, I cannot tell you how, um, how awful that is.
00:11:51And, and it's, there's something so unique in the experience of having all of that pain and all of that
00:11:59shame made so public.
00:12:02It's, um, it's really intense.
00:12:05It's really intense and it's deeply damaging.
00:12:08Um, so.
00:12:10Can you remember what was happening to you physically while it was going on?
00:12:13Like, with your, how did your body cope with that?
00:12:17I think my body cope with it in defiance, you know, like actually, um, we've Irish ancestry.
00:12:25Like, we are all from Wicklow, came over in the potato famine, lived in Newtown, in a place called Newtown
00:12:32in, in Cardiff.
00:12:33Five streets of Irish Catholics.
00:12:36And, um, and the female line of my family are fierce.
00:12:41And they always have been, like, um, fearsome and brilliant and outspoken and strong, you know?
00:12:52And, and I do think that, um, part of that is from our ancestry, from our Irish roots.
00:13:00It's genetic.
00:13:01It's absolutely genetic.
00:13:02And, um, but I, yes, I think that my sense of perspective, my sense of the understanding of the injustice
00:13:12of it.
00:13:12So I didn't internalise it.
00:13:14I didn't internalise it.
00:13:16I just knew it was fucking wrong.
00:13:19Yeah.
00:13:19You know?
00:13:20Did you, did you, did you marry the fellow with his straight up hair?
00:13:25I did.
00:13:26I didn't marry him.
00:13:27I didn't marry him.
00:13:28Just had his babies.
00:13:31Oh, is it Jonathan something?
00:13:33No, no.
00:13:34So Johnny, he is my husband now.
00:13:36So I've been, I've been married to Johnny.
00:13:38How have I been married since 2017?
00:13:39But we've been together for 15 years.
00:13:42Okay, lovely.
00:13:42Um, and I've got a baby with him too.
00:13:45So I've got a little four-year-old.
00:13:47Two teenagers and a four-year-old.
00:13:49So that is amazing and complex and beautiful.
00:13:54Um, tell me about the, um, the creative stuff then.
00:13:58Mm.
00:13:59When the, the, the, the first two babies were, are they all boys?
00:14:04Girl, boy, girl.
00:14:05So, so when the, the, your first daughter and your first son, can you tell me about the,
00:14:11your creative desires as they're growing up and what you wanted to do?
00:14:17Yeah, I think that I've always been a curious cat.
00:14:21And so, um, and, and also just very trusting of my intuition.
00:14:25Good.
00:14:25And so, um, I would just follow what, what, what, my interests, I suppose.
00:14:30And, and, and, and then also through my relationship with my husband and, of course, through having children,
00:14:37um, I became much more politically active.
00:14:41Um, you know, my husband was, is an absolute, like, anarcho-communist, communist and, uh, radical.
00:14:48And, uh, and before then I had been, I suppose, just not very politicised at all.
00:14:54Um, and, um, yeah, I've just been getting myself into loads of trouble ever since.
00:14:59What kind of, what kind of trouble?
00:15:01I mean, just all sorts of trouble, really.
00:15:04Just, um, I think, obviously, with, uh, Palestine.
00:15:09Yeah.
00:15:09Palestine seems to me to be, uh, the biggest sort of spiritual awakening of our time.
00:15:15At the catalyst for this enormous world change, which seems to be just going faster and faster, like this, the
00:15:23speed of, of what I would consider this sort of fascistic takeover, that feels like it's global, is, um, is,
00:15:33is deeply unsettling.
00:15:35Um, and, but, yeah, I mean, whether, I've been, um, a climate activist for a number of years now.
00:15:44Um, and I suppose in ways that was, again, whilst I was just really starting to educate myself and allow
00:15:53myself to be educated by others, um, around the polycrisis that we face, um, whether it's the excesses and the,
00:16:04uh, the human rights abuses of late-stage capitalism, um, whether it's the, the war machine, whether it's the grip
00:16:13of big pharma.
00:16:14Whether it's the education system.
00:16:16I mean, whether it's the, the, the pollution of the rivers.
00:16:20Take your pick.
00:16:22So, so, so how do you live then?
00:16:25How do I live?
00:16:26I mean, I, I mean, those things are real, um, and you can feel a bit powerless.
00:16:35Yeah.
00:16:36Um, so on a day-to-day level then, what do you do, how do you live?
00:16:42I, I manage, I cope by, um, I have set up a charity which has been running for six or
00:16:50seven years now called the Awen Project, which is a free-to-attend democratic school in the forest.
00:16:57We've only got one community so far, but we hope to have many, many more communities, um, and that is
00:17:03all around young people's agency and autonomy and creativity and having much more of a say over their education, a
00:17:11much more soulful education.
00:17:13Like, is it a, is it a physical school?
00:17:15It's a physical school.
00:17:16We've got 15 kids at the moment.
00:17:18And at the moment, the way that it's staying open, because we are quite radical and so funding isn't easy
00:17:24to come by.
00:17:25Uh, I'm doing celebrity game shows.
00:17:30Yeah, anyway, so that's a different way.
00:17:33And also, I've set up a...
00:17:35Do you mean like, um, I'm in the jungle, help me, those sort of things?
00:17:37No, like, uh, the chase.
00:17:41A catchphrase.
00:17:44Tipping point.
00:17:45Tipping point.
00:17:46Have I done tipping point?
00:17:47Yes, I have done tipping points.
00:17:49I've done loads of them.
00:17:51Um, and so, yeah, so, so that's one way.
00:17:54Do you enjoy doing them?
00:17:56Not particularly, no.
00:17:59That's not my general way.
00:18:01And also, like, as much as possible, I do try and keep myself out of the limelight.
00:18:04Yeah.
00:18:05Unless it is people like yourself who have integrity and who, um, a point of view and, um, you know,
00:18:14is not so caught up in this mess of media and, yes, anyway.
00:18:20So, I only, I only pop out of my little hidey hole, um, uh, when I need to.
00:18:27Um, how's your voice?
00:18:30Good.
00:18:32Do you want me to have a little sing?
00:18:35Oh, okay.
00:18:37Um, hmm, hmm.
00:18:39Shall I sing a little Irish air?
00:18:41Whatever you like.
00:18:42Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah.
00:18:44Okay, so, when, uh, when I was younger, I used to sing a lot of Irish music.
00:18:49And, again, at the time, I didn't, they were always, it was always my favourite music to sing.
00:18:54Um, you know, the Parnass Angelicos and the this, that and the other.
00:18:58Um, it was always the Irish airs that I loved.
00:19:00So, I'm going to sing my Lag and Love.
00:19:02Ah, ah, ah, ah.
00:19:07Where lag and stream sings a lullaby, there blows a lily fair.
00:19:24The twilight gleam is in her eye.
00:19:34The night is on her head.
00:19:41And, again, she, she hath my heart enthralled.
00:20:16There you go.
00:20:22Charlotte, thank you so much.
00:20:24Thank you for having me, Tommy.
00:20:25This has been lovely.
00:20:27Uh, I've wanted to meet you for a long time.
00:20:29I always had a sense you were, um, there was good fun in you.
00:20:35Thank you very much for coming on to the show.
00:20:37Oh, thank you for having me.
00:20:38It's been absolutely wonderful to be here.
00:20:41Yeah.
00:20:42Lash, beautiful to be in Dublin as well.
00:20:56Welcome back to the second half, everybody.
00:20:58Freddie, who's next?
00:20:59Tommy, our next guest is Mr. Davey Russell.
00:21:09Oh, yeah, man.
00:21:10Good, good, good, good.
00:21:15Oh, how's the body?
00:21:17Oh, the body is glued together, still there.
00:21:20Nuts and balls, just tighten them every now and then.
00:21:23So, for those people who don't know you, you're a phenomenal jockey.
00:21:26Used to be, used to be, yeah.
00:21:28The last time I was talking about you, you'd fallen off a tree.
00:21:34Oh, God.
00:21:35Oh, Jeannie.
00:21:36Yeah, I had my first experience of ketamine.
00:21:41Jesus, um, yeah, that was an experience.
00:21:45Oh, sorry, this is after the fall.
00:21:47Yeah.
00:21:50I didn't take the ketamine and then go on the tree, no.
00:21:54I went on the tree, got the fall, then took the ketamine.
00:22:00Oh, stop the light.
00:22:01I had visions of you up with the branches going, this was not a great idea.
00:22:04Oh, I think you would have gone.
00:22:05Oh.
00:22:07What happened to you?
00:22:09The ambulance came and, uh, I was sitting, I was in, I was in pain now.
00:22:13It was sore and, uh, he gave me the ketamine.
00:22:17Oh, they couldn't find the vein.
00:22:18That's right.
00:22:18They couldn't find the vein and next thing he puffed the ketamine and I said,
00:22:23God, it's some stuff.
00:22:25And, uh, and, uh, I went off then on my pink unicorn up into the sky and, uh.
00:22:30Was it trippy?
00:22:31Oh, it was, I could have drove the ambulance.
00:22:35So, I could, um, it was, uh, an experience in a way.
00:22:39And I'm not, and, and, you know, drugs never drink, never, I never drank.
00:22:44Uh, drugs never interested me, you know.
00:22:48Because when I got a fall, you know, a normal fall, you got a bit of a kicking and you
00:22:53were sore.
00:22:54I wasn't here to take in painkillers.
00:22:57Okay, yeah, yeah.
00:22:57Because I didn't want to mask something.
00:23:02I wanted to go through the pain.
00:23:03I had no problem with pain.
00:23:04I actually sometimes kind of used to pat myself on the back a little bit when you go through the
00:23:10pain barrier.
00:23:11Do you know what I mean?
00:23:11I enjoyed going through the pain barrier.
00:23:13Yeah.
00:23:14So, with that relationship to pain, could you, could you have hurled or something or was there,
00:23:18were you only ever going to become a jockey?
00:23:20No, actually, I'd done everything.
00:23:21I'd done everything.
00:23:22I ran as a chap.
00:23:24I, I, I, I, I hurled.
00:23:26I played football to no level now.
00:23:29Do you know what I mean?
00:23:29I was, what I was, if, if they had the full 15, I was an umpire.
00:23:35And if they didn't have the full 15, I'd fill a gap.
00:23:39Do you know what I mean?
00:23:39Um, but I loved it.
00:23:41I just loved going to training.
00:23:43And I loved being in the hurling pitch.
00:23:47And I, as I remember back now, when I was a chap, every pursuit that my dad enjoyed, I enjoyed.
00:23:58I was a shadow of him, everything he'd done, um, because I used to see the joy when he'd go
00:24:06to a hurling match and the excitement.
00:24:10And even to this day and now, the rearing that I got with my father, I was, I was an
00:24:16extra limb on him now.
00:24:17I, I, I, I must have been an awful nuisance to him.
00:24:20But no matter where he was going, I wanted to go there.
00:24:25And after that, then I went into them.
00:24:29I liked hurling matches.
00:24:31I liked football matches.
00:24:32I liked hunting.
00:24:34I liked riding horses and going to point of points.
00:24:36And the actual race course didn't excite me as much as the joy of going to a point of points.
00:24:46Sure, yeah, yeah.
00:24:47And, but then that progressed into, you know, that just developed into what it developed into.
00:24:52But, uh.
00:24:53Can you, can you tell me about your career then and the races won and lost and all that and
00:24:57the shape of it?
00:24:59The races won and lost were brilliant.
00:25:02And, and, and I had a marvellous career because I never expected to do what I'd done or I don't
00:25:10think anybody does.
00:25:11Yeah.
00:25:12But, um, so I started off in pint of pints.
00:25:15Then I had the look of, um, I rode for very good people.
00:25:18Arthur Moore, you know, real, fantastic people.
00:25:21I had a good association with a trainer called Charles Burns and I rode a lot of winners for him.
00:25:25And then, um, I met up with Michael O'Leary.
00:25:29And I was riding loads of winners, but I could, I just couldn't get over the line to be champion
00:25:34jockey.
00:25:34I have, I, I rode the most amount of winners in a season and still finished second.
00:25:40Ruby rode maybe four or five more than me.
00:25:43We broke the record for the amount of winners.
00:25:44You were the Liverpool of jockeys.
00:25:45Yeah.
00:25:48And, uh, then I was lucky enough to meet Michael O'Leary and he was building a team of horses.
00:25:54Yeah.
00:25:54And, uh, I became champion jockey and I then I became champion jockey again and everything was going and I
00:26:01was winning all these races, you know, grade one races where you like to be in Leopardstown and Cheltenham and
00:26:06Aintree and all these places.
00:26:08And, uh, and yeah, it just went on from there.
00:26:11I just had rode some very, very good horses for some great people.
00:26:14What's the most scared you've ever been on a racetrack?
00:26:17I'm never scared on a racetrack.
00:26:19No, no, I have no fear whatsoever of riding a horse.
00:26:22Fall and the thunder of other horses going over you.
00:26:25No fear, no.
00:26:26No, well, the only time you'd be afraid is when you're hit the ground and waiting for the fingers and
00:26:34the toes to move.
00:26:35Once they move, then, but I did break my neck.
00:26:39No, I broke my, that was, uh, it was scary, but then very, I got over very quick.
00:26:46I felt like there was a firework just exploded in my finger.
00:26:50I was very lucky the other Malta came and I explained.
00:26:53Where was the fall?
00:26:54In Limerick at the first fence in the, in the Munster Nation.
00:26:58And then the doctor, and we're very lucky.
00:27:00So an ambulance, so within seconds, there was a very qualified doctor with us.
00:27:06With all the equipment.
00:27:08But the race is still going on?
00:27:10Oh, don't mind the races.
00:27:11Everybody and the punters and everybody's cheering for their horse and that's, they'll worry about that.
00:27:15Don't mind Davey.
00:27:16Don't mind him.
00:27:17Once he's, yeah.
00:27:19Ketamine, get that lads of ketamine.
00:27:20Yeah, get him quick.
00:27:21And, uh, so when you're lying, you cannot move and it's really uncomfortable.
00:27:28It's the most uncomfortable thing, um, to be lying there strapped in and no movement.
00:27:32And you're seeing all these faces, um, shoulders, you're only barely seeing a shoulder go by, you know.
00:27:39And there was a lovely doctor, um, uh, um, my head names, um, came and he just came over and
00:27:49stuck his face over that I recognised.
00:27:50And I got quite emotional that I recognised and I got quite emotional that I saw a face that I
00:27:55recognised and he could talk to me.
00:27:58And he just said, look, you're in a bit of bother, uh, you're going to have to go to Dublin,
00:28:03uh, you're going to have to break in your neck.
00:28:05Uh, you're seeing three vertebraes anyway and I dislocated one.
00:28:09Um, and then the William Wallace, um, uh, torture chamber came into play, which this was brilliant altogether.
00:28:18So they had to stretch me to pop in the vertebrae and that was grand.
00:28:26So I was lying in the bed again, looking at the ceiling.
00:28:28Are you conscious while they're doing this?
00:28:29Yes, I am very conscious.
00:28:31How do they stretch you?
00:28:33Bolt into your head, a string off a, off a, there's a little arc going across here with a string
00:28:43on a pulley down with a bag full of water.
00:28:49And every so often they'd add weight to the bag to pull.
00:28:53So anyway, they popped in the yoke and he went in and they operated and, oh, it was brilliant.
00:28:57Um, yeah, it was fantastic.
00:28:59And he said, uh, I said, will I be able to ride again?
00:29:03And he said, you will.
00:29:06He said, why wouldn't you?
00:29:07I said, I know I just broke my neck like, and, uh, he said, your neck will be stronger after
00:29:11I operate on it than it was before.
00:29:14So that put me at ease.
00:29:15And then I had a huge journey then to get to recovery.
00:29:20And I imagine you fell again.
00:29:22Oh God, I did over and over and over.
00:29:24Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did.
00:29:26Not too bad.
00:29:27I never really fell that much.
00:29:28I actually broke a bone to my back after that.
00:29:31Um, it was the last injury I got.
00:29:35Um, just there's transverse processes on the bottom of your back off the wings of your vertebrae.
00:29:41And I damaged them and they kind of just put a right scupper to the end of me.
00:29:45And who's watching the television getting upset when you fall?
00:29:49Ah, sure.
00:29:50I remember Adele, I suppose, and dad, mom, mom was obviously, mom was a gas woman.
00:29:56Yeah.
00:29:56She was a Kells woman.
00:29:58She was a brilliant woman.
00:29:59And, uh, dad would be at home and he'd say, geez, would you not give it up altogether?
00:30:03Do you know what I mean?
00:30:04You know, you're give it up.
00:30:06And, uh, that would drive me on more.
00:30:08And, uh, Adele then would be at home and she'd hear I'd get a fall and, you know, even the
00:30:14likes of Limerick.
00:30:15Yeah.
00:30:15So in the wear room, when I got to fall in Limerick, or if I had seen someone else get
00:30:19a fall, they'd get your phone and they'd find Adele's number or my dad's number.
00:30:25And they'd ring and say, look, David's gone to hospital.
00:30:27He's fine.
00:30:27He's have to break his leg, but he's fine.
00:30:29Or, you know, David's in a small bit of bother now.
00:30:32You might just need to, you know, make arrangements.
00:30:35Yeah.
00:30:36Yeah.
00:30:37And, uh, things like that.
00:30:38Do you have accessibility wraps at the house?
00:30:40Yeah.
00:30:41Yeah.
00:30:41Well, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was into that sort of territory at the time, but
00:30:45it was over and done with very quick now.
00:30:47Do you know what I mean?
00:30:48And we were, look, it's a tough sport now and we've had a tough couple of weeks in our sport.
00:30:53Yeah.
00:30:53It was very easy.
00:30:55I was the lucky one.
00:30:57Um, but, you know, some people just.
00:30:59Who died recently?
00:31:03Uh, it's, it's, it's a tough one.
00:31:05It's still a bit raw and Michael O'Sullivan.
00:31:07He was a beautiful chap, beautiful chap.
00:31:10And I suppose, as I said at the time, the only compliment I could, or the best compliment I could
00:31:15give is if I could rear my kids like Michael O'Sullivan to be a version of Michael O'Sullivan.
00:31:22And then I'd be after doing a good job of rearing him.
00:31:24Do you know, he was a beautiful chap.
00:31:26And he got one of them falls down to the last five or six horses in with a shout.
00:31:35Three of them fell.
00:31:37Two lads got up and whistled their way back into the air.
00:31:40How old was he?
00:31:41He was 20, just shy of his 25th birthday.
00:31:46Just shy of his 25th birthday, yeah.
00:31:50Yeah.
00:31:50For people who are watching who think that horse racing is cruel, uh, specifically, I'm not talking about the jockeys
00:31:57now, but I'm talking about the treatment of the horses.
00:31:59Now, I would always defend it saying nobody loves the horses as much as the jockeys.
00:32:04But they would be kind of going, no, it can't be, they don't want to jump, they don't want to
00:32:09be doing that kind of thing.
00:32:10Oh, Jesus, I wouldn't, I'd be very much disagreeing with that, you know, because you must remember they're a huge
00:32:20unit of an animal.
00:32:23And there are horses there that won't, if they don't want to do it, they won't do it.
00:32:27Do you know what I mean?
00:32:27No matter what you say or do to them, you will not make them, that's it.
00:32:31But the ones that do want to do it, they really love it.
00:32:34And they're on springs and you get a feeling off them and it's all feeling because they can't talk and
00:32:39I can only go from the feeling that I'm getting.
00:32:42I'll put it to you this way.
00:32:43If I can get a feeling of negativity from a horse, it's going to come into me.
00:32:48And that means that this is not right.
00:32:52It doesn't feel right.
00:32:53I can't do it if it's not right.
00:32:55I can't do anything if it's not right.
00:32:57I don't ever get that feeling.
00:32:59And if they get a little spot on them or a pimple on them, you're wondering, I need to change
00:33:06this because that's not right.
00:33:07He's healthy.
00:33:08He's not healthy.
00:33:09Do you know?
00:33:09So we take their bloods to make sure they're of pure and utter 100% health.
00:33:17And if they have an ache or a pain, you just wait until that ache or pain goes or you
00:33:22call the physio or you call the dentist.
00:33:24Yeah, yeah.
00:33:24There are all these professionals, they're the same way they are for humans.
00:33:29And what happens then is until you're getting the feeling that he's right and he's ready to go, then you
00:33:36go.
00:33:37You know, and not until you get that, do horses, do the people that look after and care for him,
00:33:45allow them to go to the races.
00:33:46You know what I mean?
00:33:47It's just...
00:33:48What's the most exciting race you've ever been in?
00:33:50Oh, the Grand National is the one that gets the...
00:33:55You'd feel it.
00:33:56Can you describe that one to me?
00:34:00So nobody thinks they're going to win it, but everybody is going out to win it, if you know what
00:34:07I mean.
00:34:07Yeah.
00:34:08So, you know, in a Gold Cup you'd say, you know, there's three or four of them, you know, five
00:34:16of them could win it and four of them may not, but anybody could.
00:34:19Anybody could win the Grand National.
00:34:21Anybody.
00:34:22All 36 of them, they line up at the tape, any one of them, because you just don't know what's
00:34:28going to happen.
00:34:29Yeah.
00:34:31It's situated in a special place in Liverpool.
00:34:33Yeah.
00:34:34Special fences and a special designed course that you have to jump one fence that way.
00:34:40Who decides when the horse jumps?
00:34:42He does.
00:34:44He makes up...
00:34:45You send the signals.
00:34:48You send the signals.
00:34:50You send the signals, but it's all feeling.
00:34:54You're not going to send a signal unless you're getting a reaction from him.
00:34:58Yeah.
00:34:58You know what I mean?
00:34:59So it's all feeling.
00:35:01So the signal is, will we get ready?
00:35:03The signal is...
00:35:07Nothing is nearly always the best thing.
00:35:10Just don't do anything.
00:35:11Just sit there, hold on to him, and just squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, and he will do the rest.
00:35:18He'll love doing it.
00:35:19Squeeze with your legs.
00:35:20Legs.
00:35:21Just squeeze with your legs, or encourage him to go forward.
00:35:23Go on.
00:35:24Go on.
00:35:26And...
00:35:27Hup.
00:35:27Do you go hup?
00:35:28No, leave the huping and the goons and all that.
00:35:30Leave that...
00:35:31No.
00:35:31Leave that.
00:35:32That's the cowboy stuff.
00:35:34Leave that behind.
00:35:35Whoa!
00:35:35Yeah.
00:35:36Well, a whoa now, you would say a whoa.
00:35:38You say, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
00:35:41And some lads are verbal and some lads aren't very quiet.
00:35:45Yeah.
00:35:46Yeah.
00:35:46Yeah.
00:35:47You could hear lads giving an old scream out of him and things like that.
00:35:50You could hear another lad singing a song.
00:35:53Do you know what I mean?
00:35:53It's great crack.
00:35:54Yeah.
00:35:56Yeah.
00:35:56And you're done with it now.
00:35:57You're retired.
00:35:58Yeah.
00:35:59Retired and at home with the lads, the kids and pawnees and horses.
00:36:03The horses are always there, you know.
00:36:05Yeah.
00:36:05Yeah.
00:36:06What are you excited about nowadays?
00:36:08My children.
00:36:10They excite me something wicked.
00:36:12And I have...
00:36:14Oh, Jesus, I love them.
00:36:16I never thought I could love anything as much as I love them all.
00:36:20Yeah.
00:36:21What is it about them that excites you?
00:36:26Ah...
00:36:28Just the way they can do things.
00:36:31Things that I could never...
00:36:34They can do things on a pony that I couldn't do when I was 14.
00:36:41Yeah.
00:36:42And they're that age now.
00:36:44Like, they're extraordinary.
00:36:46And has Adele ever kind of...
00:36:48She's not too bothered.
00:36:49She's a great woman.
00:36:50She's once...
00:36:52Everything is rolling away.
00:36:54And would she be okay for them to get involved with riding, like, do you think?
00:36:59Yeah, she will, but she's like, she sees the joy in them.
00:37:01Yeah.
00:37:02She sees the joy in what they're doing.
00:37:04And they're outside.
00:37:06And they're getting dirty and manky.
00:37:08And she'd leave a back of her...
00:37:10That the clothes are all over the place.
00:37:12And we'd all say sorry.
00:37:13And we'll go up and we'll clean the tack and we'll brush the pawnees and we'll ride them.
00:37:18And we'll go out in the rain and the snow and the sleet and the sunshine.
00:37:22Yeah.
00:37:24When I...
00:37:24Before I met you, I remember Hector would always be talking about you.
00:37:29Oh, he's a mad bastard.
00:37:30Oh, Davey Russell's a mad bastard.
00:37:32Jesus, he's a mad bastard.
00:37:33And then, you know, he'd be laughing, thinking about you.
00:37:36And then I met you at Loretta's wedding.
00:37:39Yeah.
00:37:40And I was thinking, I'm going to meet this mad bastard now.
00:37:42I know.
00:37:42I was surprised that you didn't drink.
00:37:44Yeah.
00:37:45And I was surprised with how delighted you seemed to be out dancing.
00:37:48Oh, I love dancing, yeah.
00:37:50I love dancing and I love the crack.
00:37:52And I love, I love when everybody is going and you kind of can just slip in and in around
00:38:00where everybody is dancing.
00:38:02Yeah.
00:38:02Do you know, and I love, I love that and the sweat dripping off and the rip off and the
00:38:05shirt and the wildness.
00:38:08Oh, jeez, I love that.
00:38:09And then another day I could go out and I could enjoy myself just as much, but I could sit
00:38:13in the corner.
00:38:13Yeah.
00:38:14And I might need to dance.
00:38:17And I'd be having the same amount of fun as I would if I was dancing.
00:38:21And you're not self-conscious at all when you're dancing.
00:38:23I couldn't care less.
00:38:25I was on television for four or five years.
00:38:27Oh, did you do this?
00:38:27I did, I did.
00:38:29I did do it.
00:38:30Like an eejit.
00:38:32Yeah.
00:38:33And I learned a quick step and everything, yeah.
00:38:36And that was a challenge.
00:38:37That was a challenge.
00:38:38Yeah.
00:38:39You're young enough as well.
00:38:40Are you late 40s?
00:38:4245.
00:38:4245.
00:38:43Yeah.
00:38:43I think, yeah.
00:38:4545, yeah.
00:38:461979, the last year they made men.
00:38:48Yeah, was it?
00:38:50It was after the Pope.
00:38:52Yeah.
00:38:52Oh, he was in Galbraith the same year, yeah.
00:38:54That's so true.
00:38:55Yeah.
00:38:56Yeah.
00:38:56Yeah.
00:38:57How many races would you say that you rode?
00:39:00Oh, rode?
00:39:00Oh, man.
00:39:02Thousands upon thousands.
00:39:03I won.
00:39:04I won over, over one, over 1,500.
00:39:11Well over 1,500 races.
00:39:13Maybe, maybe, I don't know.
00:39:151,600 or 1,700 races I won.
00:39:19So I rode thousands upon thousands.
00:39:21Broke a lot of bones.
00:39:25And I had so much fun.
00:39:29That's great, isn't it?
00:39:30Oh, it's so much fun.
00:39:31I look back on it now with the greatest.
00:39:34Oh, it's so much fun.
00:39:35And great people and crack and wildness.
00:39:39Jesus, I love the wildness of it.
00:39:40Do you know?
00:39:41It's inspirational stuff, Davey.
00:39:43It is great.
00:39:45Thanks for talking to me, fella.
00:39:46Brilliant.
00:39:46Thanks for having me.
00:39:47Brilliant.
00:39:47Yeah.
00:39:49Yeah.
00:40:01Welcome back to the third half, everybody.
00:40:04Freddie, who's next?
00:40:05Tommy.
00:40:06Our next guest is Onde Bardouin.
00:40:13Oh, how are you?
00:40:14Good, good.
00:40:15Right now.
00:40:16Thanks, Bill.
00:40:17See you.
00:40:21What do you go at?
00:40:23Sorry there, Tommy.
00:40:24What did you say?
00:40:25I said, what do you do?
00:40:26Oh, what do I do?
00:40:27Oh, God.
00:40:27I do a few things.
00:40:29I'm a writer.
00:40:30I'm a collector of Irish Travour folk tales.
00:40:33And I'm also an inclusive curator of Travour history at the National Museum.
00:40:37Oh, wow.
00:40:38Yeah, I know.
00:40:38I'm blessed.
00:40:39How did you get into all that?
00:40:40I grew up a traveller.
00:40:41I love stories.
00:40:42You know, there are people who are born with curiosity.
00:40:44I'm born with nosiness.
00:40:45So I love the idea that we have this whole collection of lore and understanding that we've inherited
00:40:51from people around us that just makes sense of the world.
00:40:53Isn't it funny now because in terms of our encounters with, in terms of the encounters
00:41:01of the settled people, with the travelled people, people say, you don't sound like a traveller.
00:41:05I love that.
00:41:06Because I'd go, what do travellers sound like?
00:41:08You know?
00:41:09Well, there's a kind of an awfully accent.
00:41:11That's kind of, how's it going there?
00:41:14That's very awfully.
00:41:15But there's 47,000 of us.
00:41:16So it'd be a bit boring if we all sounded the same.
00:41:18Totally.
00:41:19Where did you grow up?
00:41:20I grew up in Turboy on the edge of Chum in Galway.
00:41:24That's a good traveller town.
00:41:25Oh yeah, one of the Shams, one of the Shams.
00:41:27Yeah.
00:41:29Navan was a good traveller town.
00:41:30Oh, still is.
00:41:31You know.
00:41:33But is there a thing of ultimately a settled person will feel, I like this traveller fella,
00:41:40I get on with him, but at the end of the day, I can't trust him.
00:41:45And is there the same coming back the other way?
00:41:47Oh, I'm not sure entirely about trust.
00:41:49So I understand that it can be undermined, definitely.
00:41:51Yeah.
00:41:52But also there's different perceptions.
00:41:53Like I'm with my partner, Dan, on our 19th year.
00:41:55He's from the wider community.
00:41:57Yeah.
00:41:57And there's stuff that in his life that I go, settle people are mad.
00:42:01Yeah.
00:42:01Do you know?
00:42:02Margarine haters.
00:42:02Yeah.
00:42:04And all sorts of things.
00:42:05And it can be as well as how it's the, your wider community is kind of,
00:42:09and there's a wide, obviously, spectrum of like understandings of how they've been in culture
00:42:14to live their lives.
00:42:14Like one of them, like I often talk about it, is that Dan had a grandmother who he's absolutely adored
00:42:20and loved.
00:42:20And she's lived a very long life when she was cherished.
00:42:22And when she died, I think I was visibly the most upset person in the church.
00:42:27And so much so on the way home, I'm like going, if I die, you better throw yourself into the
00:42:31grave.
00:42:31Because they were going for sandwiches.
00:42:33Yeah.
00:42:34And I had time to process that of all, rather than going, I saw that a lack of passion and
00:42:38connection,
00:42:38rather than it was their way of going through grief.
00:42:40And in my opinion, I was like, oh no, our grief needs to live on the surface.
00:42:43If you love that person, you need to, everybody knows.
00:42:46It's out there.
00:42:46It's out there because you love that person.
00:42:48So I think engaging with that.
00:42:49And sometimes as well, I think that because of her history of being nomadic,
00:42:53we were reliant on, again, on each other in the wider community.
00:42:55We can also risk being very more honest.
00:42:58We're like going, I'm gone tomorrow.
00:43:00I can tell you exactly how I feel, you know, you mightn't see me for a few years.
00:43:04So I think that gives people the sense of, we can live more on the surface.
00:43:08Okay.
00:43:08And I love that while some people.
00:43:11Yeah.
00:43:11Oh God, we all love the drama.
00:43:13So tell me then about the extravagant tombstones and graveyard stuff.
00:43:19Yeah.
00:43:19They're like, they're entertaining.
00:43:22Yeah.
00:43:22But what's the expression of endearment and love, but also a lot of them are like,
00:43:27they're funded collectively.
00:43:28It's not as I say, it comes from one person's pocket.
00:43:30If someone dies, it's a huge gathering of them, but also it's a way of manifesting a trauma
00:43:34of a loss.
00:43:35The idea of we, traditionally we moved, we don't, we have low object history.
00:43:39Because again, if you're, if you're either deeply, deeply practical or deeply emotionally
00:43:44connected, you don't bring it with you because you're moving around.
00:43:46So having something permanent, the idea would be, we create that and we want to fill that
00:43:50with our love and respect of things.
00:43:51Now, when I'm, when I'm dead and gone, I don't want one.
00:43:54No.
00:43:54Yeah.
00:43:55I mean, throw me out a hole and put up a little sign I was there, but I don't understand
00:43:58where it comes from.
00:43:59Yeah.
00:43:59And you don't really care what anybody else thinks about it in terms of it being classy
00:44:02or obvious or, like you'd be in a graveyard and you'd see the ordinary, tight, little
00:44:08Christian settled crosses.
00:44:10And the next thing you see, there's like, there's like a granite box of fags.
00:44:14There's a kind of a, you know, there's sculpted cans.
00:44:17There's, there's.
00:44:18All connected to the person.
00:44:19You know, kind of going like, some of them remind me almost of the ancient tombs.
00:44:22They're kind of going like, they love the cigarettes, they get one of those.
00:44:24Love the drink, get one of those.
00:44:26Love the music, everyone loves the elevator.
00:44:27Get one of those.
00:44:28You know, and it's a way of building.
00:44:29So when you're coming around going, oh, these things are connected to those people.
00:44:33There's part of their lives, their history.
00:44:34And they're not just a thing in a box on the ground.
00:44:37They're a living connection because they're still a part of us.
00:44:40It's all, and I think it's just a different, when people moved a lot, there was a different
00:44:43way of carrying people with you.
00:44:45Because if you were in a settled environment, sedentary, they'd be around you in different
00:44:48ways.
00:44:49That would be their chair.
00:44:50That's the window they used to stand beside.
00:44:51Yeah.
00:44:52So when you moved, you'd have a different way of carrying them.
00:44:54And so I, I, so I think that how that's manifested in the world is it's different, but it's
00:44:58beautiful.
00:44:59It really is beautiful.
00:45:03I'm curious about the way social occasions for travellers.
00:45:11And not just kind of funerals and stuff like that, but just how you engage with one another
00:45:18and, um, like the, what part is the horse fair and ban on the slow play compared to other
00:45:25things?
00:45:25I'm very curious about that.
00:45:26Well, if you think about it, like socially, to be honest, we don't actually get together
00:45:31very often.
00:45:31So when we get together, we like to make a big, because they kind of go like, how many
00:45:34times are you going to get together?
00:45:35And then there's really unusual things where the majority of travellers never send wedding
00:45:39invitations.
00:45:40It's almost seen as insulting.
00:45:41Because if we're friends, you know, I'm getting married.
00:45:43I'm expecting you there.
00:45:45It's up to you to tell me you're not going to come.
00:45:46So if I'm giving you a letter going, are you going to come to mine?
00:45:49Suddenly you're like going, are we not getting on?
00:45:52So there's different ways.
00:45:53So just rock up.
00:45:53Yeah, you'd be expected.
00:45:55We work out kind of going, how many people do we know and, you know, are going to return.
00:45:58But it's a different way of community celebrating.
00:46:00So when we have opportunities to get together, we get together.
00:46:03It's much better.
00:46:04And when you say ban on the slow, I've been to ban on the slow fair about three times.
00:46:07But it is seen as one of those gatherings.
00:46:09Same thing with the puck fair.
00:46:10Oh, yeah.
00:46:10It's seen as one of those gathering points.
00:46:12Yeah, yeah.
00:46:12And there's different areas and different families traditionally have different routes.
00:46:15Like my family's route would be Connemara at Lone to Faris Kerry.
00:46:19So, you know, it wasn't that we traveled every corner.
00:46:20So that was the kind of thing.
00:46:21And it would attract seasonal work.
00:46:23We'd attract different kind of festivals that would happen, different markets that would happen.
00:46:27But also people have a desire to move and be in different spaces and open.
00:46:33Like, for instance, I was very, very blessed, myself and Dan, we were able to purchase a home together in
00:46:38Dublin.
00:46:39And when my parents heard about this, my father said, I have to go up.
00:46:42And he came up to kick the ball.
00:46:43Everything was fine.
00:46:44And his interpretation was like, oh, you're off for making, you're stuck here now.
00:46:48Rather than going, we're delighted, you're able to afford something.
00:46:50It was a very different landscape.
00:46:52You're almost shackled.
00:46:52Yeah, it's like you're stuck here.
00:46:53And then after a while, it was like, oh, you can come back here.
00:46:56Oh, that's fine.
00:46:56You can come back here.
00:46:57The idea of like, I wasn't going to be taken to the hills next morning, but it was a sense
00:47:00of, oh, you can't go anywhere now.
00:47:02Like, this is where you are.
00:47:03This is where you stay.
00:47:05And I just thought that was really, really interesting.
00:47:08In terms of coming out as a gay man.
00:47:11Oh, well over 20 years ago.
00:47:12I grew up in a glass closet, right?
00:47:15So people weren't surprised I was gay.
00:47:16People were surprised I came out.
00:47:18You know, they almost started going, no one, no one in anywhere in the corner of the room did not
00:47:23know I was gay.
00:47:23The more they're going, oh, Jesus, he stole people.
00:47:25You know, and I think my experiences would be very typical of what most people coming out would have had.
00:47:33So there'd be love and engagement.
00:47:34There'd be rejection, you know, like anyone from the wider community.
00:47:37But my parents always deeply loved me and, again, want to wrap me in this kind of a sense of
00:47:42protection and care.
00:47:44But I've been thinking it's been a huge benefit for me.
00:47:47A lot of people, you've almost said, in society, because being, anyone can be LGBT.
00:47:53And because of that, there's a wider sense of connection.
00:47:56And for people, the most peculiar thing happens is that being gay seems to cancel out the travel thing for
00:48:01people.
00:48:02I find it fascinating because I think in my mind, and most travel are all travelers because I've never been
00:48:05not a traveler.
00:48:06No, it's who I am.
00:48:08But when these combine, a lot of people are kind of going, oh, no, that doesn't work.
00:48:11This is something peculiar, something queer there now, literally.
00:48:15You have to choose one.
00:48:16Yeah, pick one rather than going, I don't know how to pick one, I'm me.
00:48:19But in other people, there's this cognitive distance and stuff like going, these two things don't meet.
00:48:23When we know in reality, of course they do, they always have.
00:48:26What do you work at, like what's the, how do you spend the week?
00:48:30Oh, like at the moment I'm working on 18 different oral history collections that are all based around objects.
00:48:36And it's lovely.
00:48:36I know I'm kind of saying that sounds like a huge stretch.
00:48:38Yeah, yeah.
00:48:38It's passion and it's love.
00:48:40I'm rediscovering part of my own history and working with people in our histories.
00:48:44I love our own histories.
00:48:45I love our own version of histories.
00:48:46Even at the most like wonderfully creative things, it's what people remember and respond to.
00:48:51And they can be so different than the establishment histories.
00:48:54I think they're equally valid.
00:48:57And people just don't get to share those.
00:49:00And what happens is because of the high levels of trauma and really serious high levels of trauma.
00:49:04I mean, the life expectancy for the average driver man is 61.
00:49:08And the medium age is, which means 50% died before the age of 38.
00:49:11Which means half our people, 19, is middle-aged.
00:49:15Do you know?
00:49:15One in 11 people at a rate conservative moment are passed by suicide.
00:49:19We believe it's much higher.
00:49:21So why, what is the cause of the suicide?
00:49:24I know each case is individual, but what do you think is the...
00:49:27To be honest, I do think it's systemic discrimination and racism.
00:49:33Do you know?
00:49:33I mean, we can always fall back and we all go to the points of individual cases.
00:49:37But when we're so widespread, in such a small population, we're less than 1% of the general population.
00:49:42When it's so widespread, it's so consistent, that we kind of can't just be blaming the people themselves.
00:49:47We need to look at the environment we've been forced into, the situation we've been forced into,
00:49:51the lack of services and support that are there.
00:49:54What are some of the things that travellers want?
00:49:57Oh, I think what we want is what everybody else wants.
00:49:59Like, we want peace, we want safety, we want accommodation, we want to be able to prosper,
00:50:05good education, health.
00:50:06Like, it's nothing unusual.
00:50:07Do you know what I mean?
00:50:08Like, when we were saying what travellers want is, what do people want to need?
00:50:11Do you know?
00:50:12Like, kind of going, the...
00:50:13Like, it's what everybody else wants.
00:50:15We all want to be able to live the best lives that we can live
00:50:18and be in the spaces that we can be as the most beautiful, enriched people that we are
00:50:25and to be able to celebrate and grow that.
00:50:26Like, there's nothing unusual.
00:50:28You know, it's not a mystery.
00:50:29Well, in terms of, to get kind of practical, in terms of hotels, I say, they need to be well
00:50:34-serviced.
00:50:35They need to be safe to live there.
00:50:37Safe to live in.
00:50:37And also in spaces where you have local amenities, transport, crèches, no, the basics of life.
00:50:46It's nothing...
00:50:48Sometimes people talk about it as almost like people are requesting something extraordinary.
00:50:52People just want to be able to live and live in a way that is respectful for their identity
00:50:56and the ways that they've been able to hold on to themselves.
00:50:59Yeah.
00:51:01I've had travellers come to the show.
00:51:05Oh, I heard about that.
00:51:06And their favourite bit is when I do material about travellers.
00:51:11Oh, I've heard mixed responses.
00:51:13Okay.
00:51:14Yeah, very mixed.
00:51:14I love your confidence, Sammy.
00:51:16I love your confidence.
00:51:17Yeah.
00:51:18But there's always going to be mixed responses.
00:51:19Yeah, okay.
00:51:20Because sometimes people are going, are you connecting?
00:51:23Are you, like, kind of, literally taking the piss out of people?
00:51:26And sometimes we don't know.
00:51:28Yeah, we're taking the piss out of people.
00:51:29Yeah, yeah.
00:51:29So chances are I might be embraced at the high levels.
00:51:34Yeah, no, but I think sometimes there's this anxiety.
00:51:36Are people playing on pain or are people just being the satire of going, look how ridiculous the entire situation
00:51:42is, or just having fun as a person?
00:51:44Having fun.
00:51:44Yeah, that moves.
00:51:45It would never be playing on pain.
00:51:47That wouldn't be.
00:51:48Oh, no, but it doesn't mean people don't see it as that.
00:51:49Yeah, yeah.
00:51:50If you're used to being ridiculed and at the butt of jokes and being kind of othered all the time,
00:51:55if you hear it, even though it might be meant in a different way, you might generally respond that way.
00:51:58You go, oh, another one.
00:51:59Yeah, yeah.
00:52:00Yeah, and then sometimes when people laugh, you're going, are you laughing at the joke, or are you laughing at
00:52:04the people the joke's about?
00:52:06Do you know?
00:52:06And then that can be difficult to navigate.
00:52:08It can be done in a very honest way, in a very legitimate way, but for people who are so
00:52:12used to a certain common thread of pattern of the hits and hits and hits, it can be far more
00:52:19chewery or subject.
00:52:20It can be unhelpful.
00:52:21Yeah.
00:52:22Can you tell me about your name?
00:52:23Yeah.
00:52:24Oh, Divorad Thun, yeah.
00:52:25Yeah.
00:52:25Yeah, so I love it.
00:52:26So I am a great and passionately involved with our language, which is Gammond Kant, which most people don't realise
00:52:32is like, people call it a secret language, which I think is amazing.
00:52:35It's more of a private use because the first dictionary of it was done by a gentleman called Leyland in
00:52:421882, and he discovered the language, of course, you know, the secret language of Ireland.
00:52:48And so it's the, my father is also very engaged with it, so my family people would be wards, which
00:52:53is a bard, and dune is one interpretation of a clan, and obviously d, which would be like a descendant
00:52:58of, or a member of, so I'm a member of the ward family, you know, and it's a way that
00:53:01I find for myself, it's very important for me to pull in my identity and kind of going, this is
00:53:06actually who I am.
00:53:06So that's, it's in Kant, is it, and it's own?
00:53:10Yeah, Dibar Dune.
00:53:11Own Dibar Dune.
00:53:11Yeah, which is again, it's just, our Kant, our Gammond Kant, is just a variation of Irish in itself, but
00:53:17also the syntax is very different, it's an English syntax, so it's grown very differently.
00:53:21Like one of the earliest, one of my favourite words actually, is a word called Olami, which means the darkness
00:53:25of the night, that's found in Aum script.
00:53:28Now, like Aum itself is just, is just an alphabet in itself, it wasn't a linguistic form.
00:53:32So we know there's these languages that we've carried, parts of an ancient language that members of our own, and
00:53:37then there's parts of, like you know yourself, how some of our language has become a part of the wider
00:53:42language.
00:53:42Then who has ever heard Bjor, and Fien, and Gammy, and Moniker, you're kind of going, like, you're talking our
00:53:47talk.
00:53:47It's very Tume.
00:53:48Yeah, but also it's wider, and it's usually, it's based around, as well, if you have an area that's traditionally
00:53:54a market town, a lot of people would have, if it would have had opportunities to meet far more travellers,
00:53:58it would have been part of the linguistic flow.
00:54:00And even things like Tume, I love it, I grew up with Tume.
00:54:02Now, it's a bit confusing, it wouldn't be how I'd spell it, because it comes across as Tommy, but, um,
00:54:06it is, it is.
00:54:07Budgie Tume, what does that mean?
00:54:08No, sorry, Budgie Tume?
00:54:09Yeah, is that, no, well, you have Moonee Tume, which is really good, like, Tume is good, Moonee is good,
00:54:14is very good, or something that's blessed, um, and then you, yeah, so that's just, like, any other words, like,
00:54:19Tume, Tume, Tume.
00:54:21Krushna tobra nasha.
00:54:22Yeah, which means, uh, yeah, Krushan, like, down the road, yeah.
00:54:25It's all I know.
00:54:26Yeah, yeah, but it's there, you know, it's there, and then there's the sayings, and proverbs, and songs, and witticisms,
00:54:33and just, like, gestures that exist within it, that it's a part of the wider Irish tradition, which is part
00:54:38of the wider, like, I mean, of the island, of the nation, of the wider people, that, like, it just
00:54:42isn't funded, research properly, shared, taught in a way that I think we're...
00:54:47I wish there was something, uh, practical that we could do in terms of healthcare funding, and healthcare intervention, and
00:54:57the provisions of healthcare, and, um...
00:55:01Sounds like you're signing up now, Tume, signing up, and there, there are always ways, and there are, there are
00:55:06templates that have been working, and they're not in any way perfect,
00:55:09but have provided, like, powerful impacts, like, it's not about finding the perfect solutions, it's about working with people as
00:55:15best we can.
00:55:16Yeah.
00:55:17Yeah.
00:55:18No, Tommy, thank you.
00:55:19Thanks for coming on.
00:55:20Thanks very much.
00:55:21Thanks for talking to me.
00:55:22Yeah, I appreciate that.
00:55:23Up to you.
00:55:23Go to Shams.
00:55:26And now, ladies and gentlemen, would you please welcome, all the way from County Cork, it's Cardinals performing Roseland from
00:55:32their debut EP.
00:55:38I went down to the Cairns Street station
00:55:42Where I first said my last goodbye
00:55:46If love was there, it was sin in the air
00:55:49It only came here to die
00:55:52I was only sixteen when I found her
00:56:10Still wrapped up in my pride
00:56:14At night and God guard you forever
00:56:18Write to me, mention goodbye
00:56:20So softly I didn't touch your face
00:56:24Was the first time like the last
00:56:28I don't know why I treat you so kind
00:56:31When you're always putting me around
00:56:34In war of desperation
00:56:37In war of desperation
00:56:38I crossed upon my wall
00:56:41Tired religious vocation
00:56:45And across the end of it all
00:57:02I went down to the Cairns Street station
00:57:05Where I first said my last goodbye
00:57:37If love was there, it was sin in the air
00:57:38And I went down to the Cairns Street station
00:57:45And I went down to the Cairns Street station
00:57:51And I went down to the Cairns Street station
00:57:59In war of desperation
00:58:01I cross upon my wall
00:58:05A tireless inspiration
00:58:08And a cross at the end of it all
00:58:35So softly I then kissed her paleness
00:58:39Was the first time I could last
00:58:42I don't know why I treat you so kind
00:58:46See, you're always pulling me
00:58:49I passed in war of desperation
00:58:53I cross upon my wall
00:58:56A tireless inspiration
00:59:00And a cross at the end of it all
00:59:43A tireless inspiration
00:59:44I'm being able to Shea
00:59:45And a cross at the end of it
00:59:53And one day or my fois
00:59:53I got a cross at the end of it all
00:59:57And one day or from the edge in it all
00:59:59I gave her some kind of
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