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Dragons Den UK S23E04

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00:00The doors to the den are open once more.
00:04And the battleground for business is set.
00:08This is where fortunes are made and futures are forged.
00:12But in this brand new series, the game has changed.
00:18Alongside four seasoned dragons stands a revolving door of fierce investors.
00:25Ambitious, competitive and ready to take on the old guard.
00:31Joining them tonight...
00:32I'm Tiny Temper, I'm a multi-platinum selling music artist.
00:36A chart-topping Rhyme Master is here to compete.
00:40Tiny, good to see you bro.
00:41I was shook when I knew you were coming because I knew you'd outdress me.
00:43You know that was my whole MO. Forget the investment.
00:46I was like, I need to outdress this guy.
00:49I'm best known as a creative but I'm also a passionate entrepreneur and investor.
00:54Yeah, that brand game is really hard and it's kind of a tricky space to put yourself in.
00:58My first business was a record label but I also invest in property, art, start-up tech and consumer brands.
01:05I like anything that's lifestyle, I'm very much into it.
01:08I invested in a consumer brand and I helped it turn from a four million valuation into a hundred million
01:14pound business.
01:14I'm ready, come on.
01:18I would say my tenacity makes me successful.
01:21I don't necessarily agree with the valuation.
01:23I've come from very humble beginnings and so maybe there's a fear of going back to where I started.
01:28If your friends and family's money is already down the hole, I'm sure mine will probably end up there as
01:33well.
01:34I tend to look for driving entrepreneurs so if you're willing to get up and do it yourself, that will
01:39usually get my attention.
01:40The pressure is on and the dragons are sharpening their claws.
01:57I'm Alex and this is my brother Sean. I'm away from Warrington. They've got Tiny up.
02:04He's got his photo done. Look serious. They all look serious.
02:12Okay. Treats.
02:14Cookies.
02:15How do you like your cookie? Do you like white chocolate? Do you like the dark?
02:18I like white chocolate. White chocolate, yeah.
02:21What about you Tuka?
02:22I'm a nutty person.
02:24Never a truer word.
02:28Alex is a wonderful brother.
02:32Before we started the business, we were best mates and now we get to do this together, which is awesome.
02:40And we're still best mates?
02:42Yeah, best mates.
02:55Hi dragons.
02:57We're the brothers behind the award-winning Junk Bakery.
03:01Reimagining junk food with an added protein and fibre, low sugar sweet bakery range.
03:08My name is Alex.
03:09And my name's Sean.
03:11And we're here today with the opportunity to invest £100,000 in return for 5% of our business.
03:18Our story begins with our love of cookies.
03:21It all started long ago as two brothers chomping on bags of cookies in school classes.
03:27And then we started to grow up.
03:30And we started to realise that all those sugars, calories and fats were probably not that good for us.
03:35Over the last few years, multiple innovations have launched aimed at that health conscious consumer.
03:41But in our most beloved food category, bakery, there was nothing.
03:46So we made it our mission to change that.
03:49Having led product development at one of the world's largest sports nutrition companies, I was in a great position to
03:56take on this challenge.
03:58So, we have developed a delicious cookie.
04:02It has up to 90% less sugar than a standard supermarket or coffee shop cookie.
04:07And it has 8 grams of protein and it's high in fibre.
04:12We've since quit our jobs and six months ago launched with Tesco in over 750 stores nationwide.
04:19And so far, financial year to date, we've achieved revenues in excess of £700,000.
04:25So, Dragons, we've brought our three flavours of cookie for you to try.
04:32Deborah, I'm going to apologise now.
04:34They're vegan.
04:34Sadly, they're not vegan.
04:35I'll have yours, Deborah.
04:40Low sugar cookies, aimed at the health conscious consumer, are the offering from brothers Sean and Alex Brazel.
04:49Mmm.
04:51That's mean.
04:52Stop being mean.
04:55The pair are seeking £100,000 in return for a 5% share in their business.
05:01I recommend starting with the white chocolate cookie first.
05:05Mate, I'll beat you to it.
05:08Alex and Sean might be this week's star bakers, but can the pair earn a handshake from a dragon?
05:19Alex, you said you worked at one of the world's top sports nutrition companies.
05:23What company was that and what was your role there?
05:25It was a business called The Hut Group and my role was new product development there.
05:31And in terms of the nutritional profile, how is this different from the cookies that I see when I go
05:37to my gym that are high protein?
05:39So, from the nutritional perspective, the cookies that you will have seen, Stephen, are very much aimed at the sports
05:45nutrition consumer.
05:46And so the focus there is typically on the protein content.
05:49What we've really decided to do is we want to show up in bakery.
05:55So when you go into Tesco, our cookies are next to standard cookies.
06:00And for that reason, we've really focused on taste.
06:03And you've achieved, what, three grams of sugar per 100 grams?
06:09Yeah, exactly.
06:10Which is pretty good.
06:13I'm pretty surprised.
06:14It tastes really good.
06:16And of the 700k revenue you've done year to date, is it predominantly in Tesco?
06:21Yes, predominantly in Tesco.
06:23Is that your only retail location?
06:24Currently our only retail location.
06:27We had an exclusivity period with Tesco, which has recently expired.
06:32And we plan to launch with other grocers.
06:36I have to ask, why did you call it junk?
06:39So, when we were starting the business, there were health brands that were promising a really tasty product.
06:47And you'd end up eating it and only being disappointed.
06:50We felt that through junk bakery, consumers would feel connected to the fact that we are basically trying to reimagine
06:59junk food.
06:59And it cuts through the noise of a bounce.
07:02Because it makes me think it is junk.
07:04If you call your product junk, it's eliciting connotations that this is not good for me.
07:10So, we've worked with a consumer research agency who have helped us optimize the cues that we have on our
07:18packaging.
07:19So, sugar is still the most important call out to the UK consumer.
07:23And so, that's why it's top right on pack.
07:26But calling it junk makes me think that it is junk, is what I'm saying.
07:32So, I've got a sweet tooth.
07:34But being really candid, I didn't find it that great as an experience.
07:40And the taste, I was a bit disappointed.
07:43I'll have it.
07:45Yeah.
07:46That was my favourite, the white chocolate one.
07:48Yeah, it's... I like it.
07:49But I didn't think it was...
07:50I knew that I was eating something that isn't really a proper cookie.
07:55I think I just prefer to buy a bag cookie and suffer the consequence of that one bag cookie.
08:03What's your sell through?
08:05I mean, that would kind of answer a lot of that, wouldn't it?
08:07How many are you selling off the shelf?
08:09Yeah, yeah. Our rate of sale is around four.
08:12It's slightly higher on the singles.
08:14Four per store?
08:15Yes.
08:16Four?
08:17And is that...
08:18What was the...
08:20What were they expecting?
08:22Much more than that.
08:24Sorry?
08:24I'm just answering your question.
08:26Much more than that.
08:29That's not true, Peter.
08:31It was a launch brand.
08:33They'd suffer it because you're a new brand.
08:35They need to encourage new product categories.
08:37No.
08:37But four per store per week.
08:39That's not true.
08:40It's one of the top performing products in the category.
08:45So, I really appreciate your feedback on the product.
08:48Of course I do.
08:49It is obviously also subjective.
08:51We've had some amazing reviews since we've gone live.
08:55People love the product.
08:58Guys, um, I've made no investments in this sector.
09:03However, I know about business.
09:08So, what investment you've put into this business so far?
09:12Yeah, we have both individually put in 40k.
09:16Yep.
09:17Um, that was investing in the development of the product.
09:21Yep.
09:21And we did a friends and family investment round in 2022.
09:25How much is that?
09:27Uh, £200,000.
09:29Wow.
09:30We then did an additional, um, investment round in 23,
09:36uh, from High Net Worths, which was 300k.
09:40And then we did a crowd fund last year.
09:43So, in total, how much did we raise?
09:45About £900,000.
09:46How much?
09:47£900.
09:48£900,000.
09:50Whoa!
09:52Congratulations!
09:55So, how much did you go in the bank?
09:58We've got around £125,000.
10:01So, you went for about £700,000?
10:04Yes.
10:04So far?
10:05Yes.
10:06Right, so give us some numbers so we get an idea of, uh,
10:10where the £700,000 gone.
10:13Yep.
10:13So, the first year we did, um, £26,000 in revenue
10:19and suffered losses of around £150,000.
10:23Losses?
10:24Yeah.
10:24The next year we did...
10:25That's okay.
10:26The next year we did £19,000 in revenue
10:28and suffered £325,000 in losses.
10:32Yep.
10:32This year we're forecast to achieve £900,000 in revenue
10:36and are forecasting, um, £245,000 in losses.
10:42Losses, okay.
10:43So, you've been losing money, right?
10:46And here we are, back in a one-horse pony, in a race.
10:50Tesco.
10:52If Tesco drops you in a year's time, what happens?
10:56Well, we're hoping that's not going to be the case.
10:58Well, no, but it's a risk.
11:00We have an exclusivity arrangement with Tesco Tuka
11:04that finished two weeks ago.
11:05And we're very, very confident that we're going to land
11:08one or two other major retailers by the end of this year.
11:12I think you're going to have to rely on a fortune cookie.
11:16Um, guys, I've cut in,
11:18and I know that sometimes it's harsh feedback.
11:21It actually isn't, it's just honesty,
11:23because you've spent £700,000
11:26and you've got to this point.
11:27You've had two years of planning.
11:29You've known that you've had an exclusivity
11:32with one major supermarket.
11:33You could have spent every minute of every day
11:36going to tee up your next opportunity.
11:40What's been stopping you from doing that?
11:43We knew that Tesco had to be a success
11:46in order for it to be rolled out.
11:49Um, I'd also like to make the point,
11:51we started trading in May 2023.
11:54So, going from the space of 18 months
11:57to trading, to launching...
11:59Do you think you've done well?
12:01Definitely, yeah.
12:03I think to go...
12:04I think this could be an issue.
12:08We're hungry for more, Peter, but...
12:10No, no, what I think the issue is,
12:12is the fact of your level of expectation
12:14and what good is.
12:15Because I don't think the product's good enough.
12:17I really don't.
12:19And also, I think an element of constructive feedback
12:22is really positive in a business,
12:24because you have to take feedback
12:26for you to evolve and grow,
12:28because you're limiting your opportunity otherwise.
12:32You have a business currently
12:33that is losing a lot of money.
12:37You're spending a lot of your family and friends' money as well.
12:41So, I can't invest in this today and say that I'm out.
12:44But I feel for you,
12:45so that's the only reason why I'm being tough on you.
12:51Yeah, I'm gonna jump in here, sorry.
12:53I think you two as brothers,
12:54like the origin story,
12:56what you guys are trying to achieve in the marketplace,
12:59I think is great.
13:01But I do think that, you know,
13:02if your friends' and family's money is already kind of down the hole,
13:06I'm sure mine will probably end up there as well.
13:08So, with that being said, I wish you guys all the best.
13:11I'm pretty sure you will make it,
13:12regardless of whether anyone invests or not.
13:15but I'm out as well.
13:17Thank you, Tony.
13:20Now, I'm obviously,
13:22I'm at a huge disadvantage
13:24because I haven't eaten one.
13:28It smelled absolutely delicious,
13:30but I can't taste it.
13:32So, I kind of can't invest.
13:34You know, it doesn't make sense to me at all.
13:37So, I won't be investing.
13:38I'm out.
13:44Guys, um...
13:46700,000 loss is a lot of money for a cooking business.
13:51From what you've presented today, for me, it's not investable.
13:57So, for that reason, I'm out.
13:59Take care.
14:00Yeah.
14:04Alex, Sean, I agree with a lot of what I've heard today,
14:07but then I also disagree with a lot of it as well.
14:10I think part of the issue you've had with the Dragons today
14:13is the ones that have tried it
14:15haven't really tried any of the competitors.
14:18I think they're kind of thinking about this through the lens of a cookie,
14:21whereas when I tried this through the lens of the ones that I have in my gym,
14:25and my gym ones, I have to, like, endure it.
14:27It's like, it's horrible.
14:30So, when I tried this, I was expecting to endure it.
14:34And my expectation was so low that when I tasted it, I was surprised.
14:40And that's what caused the delight.
14:42And through that lens, viewing it more as a health-positioned product,
14:46it's really good.
14:47It is really good.
14:50However, the branding of this is so confusing.
14:54This needs a radical rebrand, because I am your customer,
14:57and I wouldn't touch this.
14:59But congratulations on making something that's delicious,
15:02but I'm going to say that I'm out.
15:04Thank you. Thank you, everybody.
15:06Good luck, guys. Good luck, man.
15:07Good luck, the best.
15:11The two siblings leave the den with qualified praise for their product,
15:16but without shaking on a deal.
15:20You okay? Yeah.
15:22The dragons having held on to their dough.
15:26Brilliant experience.
15:28Obviously disappointed not to come away with investment,
15:31but always going to take feedback on boards.
15:35I'm really proud of Alex, who had the vision for the product,
15:37which got the sort of feedback that it did from Stephen,
15:40which was really positive.
15:42And no one can take that away from us.
15:59I'm John McClary.
16:02I'm from a little town in Northern Ireland called Limavadi.
16:07Our flagship product is Business 5s.
16:11The Dragons, they might think that we're a trophy supplier.
16:14They might think that we're a kit supplier for corporate companies.
16:18They might think we do all of the above.
16:22Footy.
16:22Trophy store?
16:24What's different, though?
16:26I just thought they brought my trophies out.
16:29Maybe it's a tournament for multiple sports.
16:32Either way, it hasn't given a lot away, has it?
16:34No.
16:35Let's find out.
16:39I have such admiration and respect for all the Dragons.
16:45I can't wait to see what my heart rate's going to do.
16:48But, yeah, I'm super excited.
17:00Hello, Dragons.
17:02What an honour and a privilege it is to finally say those words.
17:07My name is John McClary, founder and director of Business 5s Limited.
17:12Today, I am looking for a £50,000 investment in return for a 5% stake in our corporate charity
17:21sports events company.
17:23Business 5s is a mission-led business that creates memorable experiences, allowing professionals the chance to develop relationships while making
17:33a positive impact.
17:36Business 5 started off with five-a-side football.
17:40Since then, we have diversified into golf, mixed-touch rugby and e-sports events.
17:47Along with our clients, we have helped raise over £1 million for charity.
17:54We help companies find new ways to connect employees, promote positive mental and physical health.
18:02We really, really help people develop their corporate culture.
18:06We have already helped connect 5,000 companies, delivering events across the UK and Ireland.
18:15To date, we have achieved sales of over £3 million, with revenue last year of £797,000.
18:23Our aim over the next three years is to increase the geographic reach of our events, and we see sponsorship
18:31revenue as a huge growth potential for us.
18:34Now, in true Business 5 style, we have created a micro Business 5s event for you.
18:41We've pretty much fast-forwarded all the good action, and we're going straight to sudden death penalties.
18:47Tiny, would you like to go on goals?
18:49Why not?
18:52A business which combines the worlds of corporate events, sports and charity is the proposition from John McLary.
19:00Tooker, you're up first.
19:02First.
19:03Oh, God, everybody, brace yourself.
19:05One step.
19:06Yeah.
19:08Oh, good effort!
19:10John is seeking £50,000.
19:14That was a cracking sieve, to be fair.
19:18In return for 5% of his company.
19:21Look at Tiny's face, look at that.
19:23I'm ready, come on.
19:27Whoa!
19:28Oh, he's good.
19:29Good save.
19:31Tiny temper has kept a clean sheet so far, but there's still one dragon to kick.
19:38Hey!
19:39You let that in.
19:41You let that in.
19:43Well done.
19:44Thank you very much.
19:45Can John net a deal in the den?
19:48Deborah Meaden's first up, and her questions are even sharper than her shooting.
19:56So, John, that kind of helped me, we obviously saw a bit of action there, but I still need a
20:02bit of explanation on the business.
20:04We essentially put on events, so name a city in the UK, we've probably got an event there.
20:09So, we go out to the local business community, invite them along to come and take part in business vibes.
20:15They get their five-a-side team ready to go, and they pick a chosen charity to pay for.
20:21They give us their company logo so we can do some marketing, get some positive brand exposure for them as
20:25well.
20:26They come along and enjoy the events.
20:29Okay, great, got it.
20:30So, what's your revenue?
20:31How do you make your money?
20:32We make our money from event entry fees.
20:35Which would be typically what?
20:38495 plus VAT for a team of up to eight players.
20:41So, that includes obviously all your football, all your networking.
20:45We finish with a drinks reception and pizza buffet after.
20:49There's loads of matches on the go at one time.
20:52And then we finish up with a presentation and a Q&A with some former players.
20:57Okay.
20:59And how many of these a year would you be running?
21:03Around about 80 to 100.
21:05And can I just go through your revenue?
21:08I know that you said that you were turning over 700 and...
21:1297. 800?
21:14800.
21:14I didn't want to say 800.
21:15800 in the last year.
21:17Yeah.
21:17What would that do in terms of profit?
21:20So, last year we actually turned over a net loss of £59,000.
21:25Okay.
21:26The year...
21:27I tell you what, give me a year that you made money.
21:31Yeah.
21:32So, 2021, our turnover was £209,000.
21:37Net profit was £34,000.
21:402022, we turned over £584,000.
21:45And net profit was £78,000.
21:49In 2023, we made £695,000.
21:54And net profit was £86,000.
21:56Okay.
21:57So, you are turning over some pretty chunky money.
22:00Not a lot of it's dropping through to profit.
22:02And your biggest year, you've lost money.
22:04Why?
22:05We made some really key hires.
22:08That increase in wage bill was a huge factor for that.
22:11So, next year, what are you expecting?
22:13So, next year, we're forecasting £917,000.
22:18And back to profitability with £91,000 in net profit.
22:27John.
22:28Really fun.
22:29But how does this become a really big, scalable business?
22:32The big opportunities for us are in the geographic expansions.
22:36We would love to go to, well, we've got as far as Amsterdam.
22:40So, we've delivered three events in the Netherlands now.
22:43So, how big can the UK be for you as a business?
22:45I think we could get the UK to £1.52 million.
22:50£1.52 million revenue?
22:52Yeah.
22:53Okay.
22:54Not huge.
22:55Not huge.
22:59Hi, John.
23:01So, if I'm a corporate, I'm going to pay you £495.
23:05And then, where's the charity bit?
23:08What happens with the charity?
23:09So, 10% of all our entry fees goes to charity.
23:13We have no control over where that money goes.
23:16That's your choice, what charity you pay for.
23:18So, how much money went to charity last year, in the full year?
23:22£76,000, I think it was.
23:24£76,000?
23:24Yeah.
23:26So, if you think about it logically as a business, I could decide, you know,
23:30which we all do, we could decide with all of our companies,
23:32a percentage contribution of their profits we give to charity each year
23:37and we can choose to have those charities.
23:38Mm-hm.
23:40So, I'm just trying to get...
23:41Unless I've missed something,
23:43I just want to find out what makes you different.
23:48And maybe I have missed it completely.
23:50So, we offer a top fundraiser price at each event,
23:53so they do some fundraising in advance and that's allowed us to...
23:56Most of the companies, I do all this, I do this myself.
23:58That's the bit I don't understand.
24:01I've got a lot of different companies, they do all their own events
24:04and then we run multiple charity events.
24:07So, I'm a bit confused about why, and at Stephen's point,
24:10how do we grow this into a big business?
24:13I suppose it's the negative know-how that we've developed by delivering 300 events.
24:19We know how to deliver a really, really slick 5SI football tournament
24:23that is an amazing client experience.
24:25And we've really, really put a lot of effort into delivering a really, really good...
24:30See, that I get. I totally get that.
24:32But I'm sitting here and I'm just sensing an element of conflict on the business model side.
24:36Let me explain. So, I've got my own foundation, had that for 20 years.
24:40We do a lot of stuff for charity.
24:44And I'm thinking, this is almost perfect where there are some businesses
24:48that it's really good to make as much profit as possible
24:51because you're investing in that business and there's a tie to charity.
24:55The more money you make, the more options you have to be able to give to charity.
24:59But it feels like this is such a, for me, a real almost not-for-profit organisation that you've built.
25:07And it's almost like I want to go, oh my God, it will be amazing to work with you.
25:11Because I think you, the way you've presented and the way you've held yourself,
25:14I tell you, is exemplary.
25:17And I'm trying to think, actually, I'd love to lift this and shift this
25:20and put this into my foundation, as opposed to investing in it as a business.
25:26You have touched on so many stuff there.
25:29Thank you very much for your kind words.
25:32We have such a, I really want somebody that shares our values and our mission.
25:37Those shared values are really important to me.
25:42Can I ask you a question?
25:43You used the word mission in response to Peter there.
25:46What is that mission?
25:48If you are to be successful and we meet and have a coffee in a couple of decades' time
25:52and you say to me it was so successful, how would you have defined that success?
25:55One of the biggest challenges we had, because last year, together with our clients,
25:59we reached the million pound mark.
26:01Now, that was eight years of hard work.
26:03That was such a goal.
26:04And now we've kind of got that, what's next for us?
26:08I would love to say, right, I want to raise 10 million pound.
26:11I think that's a really lazy goal to have.
26:13I haven't quite found that next goal yet, if I'm being brutally honest.
26:18Hmm.
26:21That's interesting.
26:23I asked that question because I was hoping to place you in either of two categories.
26:28Either the sort of more charitable side, and then in my head, I'd go,
26:31OK, so this is going to be a great investment that's going to really change the world for the better.
26:35On the other side, you have a business.
26:37I thought, OK, so if he says business, I can mentally place him there.
26:40Your answer was, you don't know.
26:44And so, because it's unclear, I don't know where to place this as an investment.
26:49So, keep doing what you're doing.
26:51It's really important from a wellbeing standpoint.
26:53But I'm going to say that I'm out.
26:55Thank you very much.
27:00I think my worry for this, I do feel a little bit like I'm not quite sure what it is.
27:06I really like you.
27:08But as an investment, I can't quite get it.
27:11So, I'm really sorry, but I'm out.
27:15Thank you very much.
27:20John, I'll tell you where I am.
27:22So, I think it's an incredible concept.
27:25But I personally don't feel like I will be able to give you the value that other dragons will be
27:30able to give you.
27:31So, I'm out.
27:33Thank you very much, Tenny.
27:51John, your concept really resonates with me from a charitable perspective.
28:02But as a business, for me to get over the line and see what this opportunity is, I can't get
28:08there.
28:10But I would love to pick up with you and my foundation outside of the den.
28:15And we could share some information and share perhaps knowledge and who knows where that might lead in the future.
28:21But as an investment as presented today, I just can't get there.
28:25So, that's the reason why I'm out.
28:27I would love to take you up on the opportunity to end the conversation.
28:30I do really struggle with that tag of being an entrepreneur.
28:33I do see myself more as a social entrepreneur.
28:36You are a social entrepreneur and you should be proud of that.
28:43John may not have managed to leave the den with a deal.
28:50Wow, that was some experience.
28:52But he did make a positive impression on the Dragons.
28:57What a great guy.
28:58Peter's words were brilliant.
29:01And hopefully it gives me a bit of self-belief to be able to go on and achieve bigger and
29:05better things.
29:07I'm definitely going to go away and dream up some big goals.
29:26Hi, I'm Rob and this is Jay and we are from the Active Hands company.
29:31We'll see them for real anyway.
29:32Yeah, I know.
29:33Do you think this is the most American thing you've ever done?
29:35Yeah, yeah, probably.
29:37The company started out in a very small way, just myself and my mum.
29:40And it's developed over many, many years.
29:42And we are looking for the investment to take it to the next level really.
29:45Yeah.
29:46So some kind of aids for people in wheelchair.
29:50Aids for mobility.
29:51Okay. Hmm.
29:52Interesting.
29:54So Rob's my boss, he's the CEO and I'm the business development manager.
29:58It's just a really friendly company. Rob's a good boss.
30:02He pays me, but not to specifically say that.
30:06There's not a bonus to that.
30:19Hi, I'm Rob and I'm the CEO of the Active Hands company.
30:22Hi, I'm Jo. I'm the business development manager.
30:24And we're here to ask for £75,000 for a 5% investment in our company.
30:32After my spinal cord injury many years ago, I found that the frustration of my reduced hand function affected my
30:38life much more than my reduced mobility.
30:41Using my engineering degree skills, we started designing products.
30:45And in 2007, the Active Hands company was officially incorporated.
30:49From that point, we have grown year on year.
30:52And last year we turned over £738,000.
30:57Our products aren't just aimed at people with spinal cord injuries.
31:00We sell our own and other manufacturers products with an aim to support people with reduced hand function.
31:05And we have some examples to show you today.
31:07This is our general purpose gripping aid.
31:09It was our very first product, which Rob designed many years ago, and it is still our most popular today.
31:14So as I pull the strap, my fingers will be pulled onto the weight.
31:20It will give me a very firm grip on the weight.
31:22So it can be used in many different situations and for gripping different items.
31:27Another of our newest additions is this adaptation, which is designed to help people to operate aerosol cans with just
31:33a squeeze, making them easy to spray.
31:36We also have a mini version for perfumes and aftershaves, and we are currently prototyping a version for nasal sprays.
31:42We are looking for investment to help us increase our manufacture and design capabilities.
31:47We look forward to your questions and hopefully your investment.
31:52A one-stop shop selling products aimed at making the world more accessible is the offering from Joe Gumbly and
31:59Rob Smith.
32:00Just when there is stuff in the aerosol cans.
32:03So don't aim it at Stephen and push, thank you.
32:08The pair are seeking £75,000 for a 5% share in their business.
32:14Bear mace.
32:16Won't work on me.
32:19You need dragon mace to work on me.
32:24Mobility might be a market with meaning, but is there a business worth backing?
32:29For Deborah Meaden, this pitch hits close to home.
32:35So I don't know if you know, my sister's in a wheelchair and she's got really, it's all about her
32:41hands, because as long as she can do as much as she can with her hands, she can stay independent.
32:45So does it actually improve the function of your hands? Because that's Emma's thing, what she, you know, she's worried
32:51that if she doesn't use them, she'll really lose function in her hands.
32:55They're not designed to actually improve your function, they're designed to overcome the reduced function that you already have.
33:02Right. So, Rob, can I ask, how did you, what was the spinal injury? Do you mind talking about it?
33:07Okay, what, I mean, how?
33:10So I had a cliff fall accident back in 1996.
33:13Gosh, a big shock, because you were very active, obviously, if you were cliff climbing.
33:17Big change in life.
33:18Yeah.
33:18So being able to do what you can, as much as you can, is really important for you.
33:23Yeah.
33:24Yeah.
33:27Jo, Rob, hi.
33:28Hi.
33:29Well, there's no other words apart from congratulations.
33:33You've got a great business.
33:35Some of these products, I don't know how unique they are, because some of the products, I certainly recognise the
33:40grippers,
33:41and the extending moveable unit.
33:45This.
33:46Yeah.
33:47There are quite a few variations of those.
33:50But this one specifically has been designed for Rob to put on independently.
33:54Yeah.
33:54Do you mind showing me that?
33:55Yes.
33:55Because I think that's quite key.
33:57So this is, the way that this works here is not just a magnetic seal, it's also a vacuum seal.
34:06So if I try to pull it off, it's very secure.
34:08Okay.
34:08It's not going anywhere.
34:09But I can easily release it just by pressing this little tab and it'll come off easily.
34:13Yeah.
34:14I do know some of these products because we used to sell some of these, particularly on the tablets.
34:19Yeah.
34:19And also to sell them for vehicle use.
34:22So they used to go into vehicles.
34:23Yeah.
34:24But you've taken it to another level.
34:26Really great.
34:26And I can see how versatile it is when you moved it.
34:29Yes.
34:29Yes.
34:30Really, really good.
34:30Yeah, it's really good.
34:31It's got the pivot here and moving around.
34:33Yeah, it's that that I think is brilliant.
34:35Yeah.
34:37Rob and Jo, how are you guys?
34:39Hi.
34:39Good, thanks.
34:40I just want to say congratulations as well.
34:43I think the business is great.
34:45My Nan is a wheelchair user.
34:46So I could see how a load of these products would be very useful for her.
34:50But the bit that's really excited me is I do Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
34:54And there's loads of guys that have come from the military with all sorts of, you know,
35:00things that have happened to them in their lives, but they're still very, very active.
35:04So just a random question.
35:07Have you ever spoken to like, you know, the Paralympics or anything like that to see
35:11if there's any way that they could implement some of these products in part of their training?
35:16We have some Paralympians that use our products in their training.
35:19It's the individuals rather than the organisation.
35:21And Rob is a Paralympian also.
35:23Well, no, I'm not actually a Paralympian.
35:25I'm a para-athlete.
35:26I've not actually been to a Paralympics.
35:27But yeah, we have a few ambassadors who are Paralympians.
35:32And any notable names or...?
35:33So Kylie Grimes has been one who's a wheelchair rugby player.
35:38Tully Kearney, yes, has also won two goals last time.
35:42Amazing. That's great.
35:44Guys, business-wise, so starting in 2007, did you say?
35:49Yeah.
35:49And your turnover of 738,000, that's in one year?
35:53Yes, that was last year.
35:54That's the year that's just ended.
35:55Just ended.
35:56Yeah.
35:57That's impressive.
35:58So £738,000 in turnover.
36:01Yes.
36:02And net profit?
36:0319.
36:03It was 19 last year.
36:04OK, so you make your profit.
36:06Have you always been profitable?
36:07We had one year, so the year before it was minus five,
36:11a net loss of £5,000.
36:13And what causes the net losses?
36:16We didn't increase our prices in line with what they were increasing to us
36:19because we're very price sensitive knowing that our customers struggle a lot
36:22with the cost of living and, yeah.
36:24Yeah, I am one of our customers and I'm very aware that it's difficult for people with disabilities,
36:29particularly at the moment.
36:32So we were getting a lot of price rises and we didn't raise our prices enough to cover that, basically.
36:38To keep up with it, yeah.
36:38So we've addressed that now.
36:40You have learnt the lesson.
36:42We have, yeah.
36:43I mean, because to be helpful to your customers, you have to have a sustainable business
36:47Yeah.
36:48And therefore you have to drive profit.
36:49So there's no shame in that because otherwise you wouldn't exist, would you?
36:53Yeah.
36:54Joe.
36:55Rob.
36:56In terms of revenue growth, what are you forecasting for next year?
37:01Yeah, so next year we're thinking 900 turnover.
37:05Yeah.
37:06With the same margins?
37:07Yeah.
37:08Roughly.
37:08Pretty much.
37:09And do you currently own 100% of the business?
37:12So it's owned within our family.
37:14So it's myself, my sister and my dad.
37:16I own all the shares.
37:18An investor changes that dynamic.
37:20It's no longer a family business.
37:21There's, you know, investors bring with them expectations of returns.
37:26And they often bring with them expectations of returns within a certain time period.
37:30Are you sure that that is what you want?
37:34It's always been a family business and we like the idea of it continuing in family business
37:40for a certain amount of time.
37:42We'll have to see, you know, understand you need to get some money out of it as well if
37:45people are investing.
37:47So there could be options to work out how to do that.
37:51Yeah.
37:52What do you think next year when you hit your 900 odd K in revenue, what do you think the
37:57net profit will be?
37:59We're projecting 60.
38:01Okay.
38:02And are you both taking income out of that?
38:05So I'm an employee, so I have a salary.
38:07Yeah.
38:08So we have about eight to 10 employees and everyone gets a salary.
38:15And then the directors get a small dividend as well.
38:18The reason why I'm asking that's quite important because at 60K profit, if I own 5% of the company
38:23and we were to declare a dividend, I'm going to get £3,000.
38:27And to get my money back is going to take me 25 years.
38:29Yeah.
38:32That's the challenge, I think, here.
38:35Yeah.
38:36Yeah.
38:38Guys, I'm going to tell you, your valuation is quite racy.
38:42Why do you think your business is worth 1.5 million?
38:45I think, you know, we're quite well established already.
38:48It was two times the turnover and we thought that was a fair assessment.
38:53Well, yeah, but it's got a dry value.
38:56So, you know, 20 times turnover might work if the profit is absolutely huge.
39:01But in this case, it's not.
39:05Your net profit is, well, you're saying 60,000 or 900,000?
39:10Yeah.
39:10I could put money in the bank and earn that.
39:14I think we're still trying to catch up from all the price increases on our raw materials and some of
39:19the products we are buying.
39:20Yeah.
39:21So, here's where I stand.
39:22I won't, I mean, the valuation, I can change.
39:24But you've got this combination, which is a lovely combination, of wanting to do the right thing and helping people
39:31who have experienced the same things that you are.
39:33So, that's lovely.
39:34The minute you get the investor in, you get a slightly different dynamic.
39:39And I worry that you would find a tension in the things that you want to do and also to
39:47give an investor what an investor needs, which is a return.
39:50I think, I think this is brilliant.
39:53And I promise you, you've just won yourself a new customer.
39:56Because I know my sister is going to be delighted when I go back and say, there's a site you
40:01need to get onto.
40:03But honestly, I can feel this would be a really uncomfortable investment for me.
40:07So, I won't be investing and I am out.
40:11But, you know, all credit to you and thank you.
40:18Joe, Rob, I think it's, I mean, I couldn't agree more with what Deborah said.
40:22The more I've heard your pitch, the more wonderful I think this business is.
40:25But on the other side, as an investor, I have a series of conflicting emotions.
40:32I'm not going to invest in the business.
40:33I'm going to say that I'm out.
40:34But I wish you the very best.
40:39Rob and Joe.
40:43Having listened to all of this, there's definitely a remarkable story here.
40:49However, all these things come back to one thing, to me.
40:54You are a family business.
40:57I am not a passive investor.
41:00All the things that I invest in, I get involved in.
41:03And I would probably drive you guys crazy, you know.
41:07That's true.
41:10No comment.
41:11No comment.
41:12And I think you don't need an investor.
41:18So, for that reason, I'm out.
41:26Tiny and Peter.
41:30I think you've created something out of a necessity, actually.
41:38The issue is that the product set doesn't generate, even if you're starting to sell in the millions, sufficient return.
41:47And that's what I think is the problem here.
41:52I really wish you the very, very best.
41:54I'm not going to invest, and I'm going to say that I'm out.
41:58But good luck to you.
42:01I'm actually really glad to hear that, because in my world, there's so many people that would benefit from this.
42:06So, you know, even after this, I would love to, like, keep in touch with you guys.
42:10But I have no clue about the space.
42:13So, if I'm being entirely honest, I was hoping someone like a Tukar or Peter would want to invest, and
42:20then, therefore, maybe I could get involved, because they would have the infrastructure and the network and the distribution, et
42:25cetera, et cetera.
42:27But they haven't.
42:29So, with that being said, I'm also out.
42:33Good luck.
42:34OK.
42:34Yeah.
42:35Thank you very much.
42:35Cheers.
42:36Bye.
42:37No deal for Rob and Joe.
42:40Their mission to make the world more accessible struck a chord, but sadly, it wasn't enough to secure the backing
42:46of the dragons.
42:48It's a shame that we didn't get the investment, but we see where they're coming from.
42:51Yeah.
42:51So.
42:52We'll do all right, anyway.
42:54Yeah.
42:56Definitely one of those where you're trying to find a way to invest.
42:59Yeah.
43:00I was hoping there was an angle, honestly.
43:04I felt in there that people believed and could see what we were trying to do, and it was nice
43:09to get the positive feedback on that.
43:10I think we'll follow up on that and carry on doing what we're doing, because they were very positive about
43:15what we're doing already.
43:16Yeah.
43:29I'm Rom from London, and I'm the founder of Health and Holistics.
43:34So Health and Holistics offers a range of supplements, which are very powerful, and I wanted to spread these powers
43:40for everybody.
43:43Seaweed.
43:44Mmm.
43:45Interesting.
43:46Why do you buy it, though, when it's freely available, you just go to the seaside, don't you?
43:49It's true.
43:52Walking into the den today, I feel powerful and strong, and I'm ready to take it to the next level.
44:04Blessings, dragons.
44:05My name is Rom, and I'm proudly the founder of Health and Holistics.
44:09I am here today to offer a 10% equity for an investment of £100,000.
44:15What once started as a program under a non-for-profit youth organization has since evolved into a successful business
44:22turning over six figures.
44:24Built on the back of nature's most amazing superfood, sea moss, a powerful, mineral-rich type of algae which can
44:34be used to support joint health, gut health, as well as skin conditions.
44:39I used sea moss throughout my career as a Muay Thai fighter, where I often experienced injuries and inflammation.
44:47This experience lit the fire, and I began to research more about sea moss, until eventually I introduced it at
44:53our youth fundraisers, and the response was incredible.
44:56This momentum led us to transition Health and Holistics into a standalone business.
45:02Now, those same young adults don't just attend the program, they have the potential to earn and have direction.
45:09To date, we have supplied Planet Organic with sea moss, as well as currently being on the shelves at Whole
45:16Foods UK nationwide.
45:18The next step is supermarkets.
45:22I do have a product that we've been working on, it's a juice with our sea moss gel inside, and
45:27I'd love to bring some around for you guys to try.
45:32A wellness brand that advocates the use of sea moss is the proposition from Rome Hagiga.
45:40So, the one that I've given you already is a grape juice, this is a pineapple and ginger with lime.
45:45Both of the juices have sea moss inside.
45:48Rome is seeking £100,000...
45:52..might be good for the throat.
45:53Oh, yeah, it's brilliant.
45:55..in return for a 10% share in his business.
45:58I'd love to know which one was your favourite as well.
46:01I'd love both of them.
46:04Rome's gel-infused juices appear to have slipped down smoothly.
46:08And Stephen Bartlett wants to find out more about the man behind the moss.
46:17What is your background?
46:19Sure, OK.
46:23At a young age, I started martial arts.
46:26I then went on to study structural engineering.
46:28I went on to work as an engineer in Qatar, Dubai and Kuwait.
46:33Upon my return to the UK, I started my own construction firm.
46:36I was doing well.
46:38My passion has always been working with young adults.
46:41So, what I did is I started a non-for-profit youth organisation
46:45where I could take young adults and put them into different programmes.
46:49One of the programmes that I launched was a careers programme
46:50which allowed me to take these young adults onto site,
46:53to my construction business and my projects.
46:57This programme excelled and I launched more programmes and more programmes
47:03to the point where I did put my construction business on hold
47:05to be able to commit to health and logistics.
47:09What was the moment when you first tried CMOS personally?
47:12Was there a eureka moment for you?
47:14Sure. So, at a young age, I knew about CMOS already
47:18because of my cultural background.
47:19So, I grew up...
47:21My mother's Persian, but I didn't always grow up at home with my mother.
47:25I grew up in the residential system.
47:28The residential system?
47:30Yeah, the youth system.
47:31So, I was with my mother until a young age, but then I left...
47:34I left when I was quite young.
47:35And then I was in different homes until I was of age
47:41to be able to live by myself.
47:43That was because of me being a boisterous young man.
47:47And, yeah, growing up in North London, in Tottenham,
47:51I grew up with a lot of ideologies of what life should be like
47:55until I got a grasp of what real life is.
47:58Well done.
47:58Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
48:00You've had a lot of odds against you.
48:01So, it's a really, really inspiring story.
48:04Let's talk about the business then.
48:06So, what year did you launch?
48:08And can you give me an overview of what the numbers look like since then?
48:11Yeah, sure. Absolutely.
48:12So, we're in our second year now.
48:15Yeah.
48:15Our first year, turnover was $123,000.
48:19And our net was, unfortunately, a loss of $16,000.
48:25So, what's the total revenue so far in your second year?
48:28In our second year, I believe it's about $50,000, approximately $55,000.
48:34And net profit is approximately $8,000.
48:37Okay.
48:38My last question's on the branding.
48:40I can see it from here.
48:42I'm not entirely sure who you're aiming at.
48:45There's the brown packet top right.
48:47There's a white packet.
48:48There's these jars, which look a little bit like cough syrup.
48:50Then there's these sort of more Whole Foods-style jars over on the left,
48:54which have the brown labels.
48:56It doesn't actually look like a brand.
48:58It looks like a selection of products.
49:01Sure.
49:02So, all of the products that you see, which have got the Whole Foods color label, like you mentioned, the
49:07jars.
49:08Those are all our CMOS products.
49:10The other products, those are not CMOS products.
49:12What do they have inside?
49:13What's the...
49:14So, for example, here we have a Pure range.
49:16It's just turmeric, ginger, green tea.
49:20Up here we have Shilajit.
49:22It's another product completely.
49:23You should really...
49:25It's tough enough to make a brand penetrate, especially in this market.
49:28What you need to do here is to focus.
49:31And actually the CMOS narrative that you gave me was original and unique for me,
49:36because I'd never heard about CMOS before and its health benefits.
49:39The minute you stray into just general supplements, everything gets more confusing and less distinctive.
49:45My advice to you here would be go after CMOS, because that is a space you can own.
49:54I've got to say that I totally disagree with Stephen.
49:59And the reason why I disagree is I think you've created like a very Holland and Barrett-esque identity.
50:06You've got a very clear logo stand out there.
50:09You've also differentiated with different color labels, and that works.
50:13And I know that that works, because I sell millions of products doing exactly the same thing.
50:17I think that this tastes absolutely fantastic.
50:22I was not expecting it to taste as good.
50:24Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
50:26And also, I'd go further, I think you're a gift to humanity as well.
50:31Anybody that can go through life and then decide to give back the way that you have is absolute credit.
50:40I really appreciate it. Thank you, sir.
50:42I think it's, you know...
50:47Yeah.
50:52Thank you, sir. I really, really do appreciate your words. They mean a lot. They really do.
50:59I'm a massive fan of CMOS, by the way. Like, I think if you're Afro-Caribbean, you understand what CMOS
51:05is.
51:05Brilliant. I use it, my kids use it. It's amazing. I think all I wanted to understand was just the
51:13competition, because I found myself getting CMOS from like, you know, like an Afro-Caribbean shop, for example.
51:19So who is your main competitor in this space?
51:23So in this space, we've got different competitors. I would say one competitor is turning over £120,000 to £160
51:29,000 monthly on Amazon only.
51:32And what would you say makes Health and Holistics different to them?
51:37Sure. Well, straight off the bat, our ethos, our mission, where we are rooted from, as well as that, my
51:48knowledge of CMOS and the story of our brand, I believe really makes us stand out.
51:56Hi, Rome. Yes, sir.
51:58A remarkable story.
52:00Thank you so much.
52:01And I'm looking at you, and I'm saying, how do you make this into a property? Because at the moment,
52:06you've come in with a valuation of a million.
52:08Yes, sir.
52:08For a business that's turning over a hundred-odd grand.
52:11Sure.
52:13How did you, or whoever advised you, said that it's worth a million pounds?
52:18Sure. So the valuation, I believe, is justified based on the strong revenue that it has in its first year,
52:25without tapping into any marketing.
52:29I appreciate that, but as we stand today, would you say it's worth a million pounds?
52:37Mr. Tucker, yes, I would. The justification is based off of several factors, not just one.
52:42So, speaking about our competitors, there is a massive market to tap into on Amazon, which we haven't.
52:48And with the retail contracts that we've secured, there is lots of opportunity currently available at our doorstep to exponentially
52:58grow, as well as the supermarket.
53:00So what you're telling me is, if all the levers are pulled, in six to 12 months' time, the million
53:07valuation will be valid?
53:09Absolutely.
53:10But not today.
53:12You've done a great job, but I'm contemplating, are you here too early? One.
53:19Is the valuation too high? Two. That's my concern.
53:25I'm going to say where I am. There's so much work to be done here with this business.
53:32And for that reason, it's like really, really difficult to get to a point of high conviction about how to
53:38take this forward.
53:39And I think about the branding work we've got to do, there's marketing work we've got to do.
53:42There's so much to do here. And I just don't think that I could do that on my own.
53:51But I think you're worth us trying to do it together.
53:56And so for that reason, I am going to make you an offer.
54:00You've asked for £100,000 for 10% of the business.
54:06I'm going to offer you £33,000 for 10% of the business, which would mean that for this deal
54:19to go ahead, we'd need at least two other dragons to come in with me.
54:22And again, you're a credit to the community. You've helped lots of other people.
54:25So this is an opportunity both to build a great business, but also to pay it forward to a young
54:28man that I think deserves his time for the universe to turn in his favour.
54:32So that's my offer.
54:33I think I'm going to jump in there as well. I would offer a third of the money for 10
54:38% as well.
54:39And I'm definitely going to be the third, 100%.
54:43I was absolutely... I think that is a great, great offer and I'm really chuffed that Stephen started that.
54:53Thank you very much.
54:53Look, you've got three great offers. You know, that's because you're a great guy.
55:00And...
55:04I would be very willing to offer you a third on the same basis, £33,500 for 10%.
55:12OK.
55:13Thank you very much.
55:16Listen, I... I couldn't be happier that you've got four offers. I couldn't be happier.
55:24I'm actually not your natural partner.
55:27So I will wish you all the best and you're going to have a big choice to make now.
55:32But I'm going to have to say that I'm out.
55:36You probably need to go and talk to the wall. Or maybe you don't need to talk to the wall.
55:39Thank you very much as well.
55:42OK. Dragons.
55:46I did come in here today with my goal of not letting go of more than 20% of the
55:53business.
55:54So based on that, if you could share between the three dragons...
56:00Which three dragons?
56:02If it was to be three dragons.
56:04Right.
56:04Because as you mentioned, you're willing to put in a third.
56:07Yeah.
56:08So if it is to be three dragons, to be 7% share rather than 10%, so then that equates
56:14up to 21%.
56:16Can I ask you a question?
56:17Yes, sir.
56:19Why 20%?
56:21Because this is my life.
56:24This is going to be setting up for my children, so I need to bring it in.
56:29How about this then? I'm going to throw this out to a lifeline.
56:32If we were returned our money, I'd personally be happy to drop down to the 7% you've described,
56:40providing our capital is returned within, say, 24 months.
56:43Sure.
56:44Would you, Peter, Tuka?
56:46Mm-hm, I'd agree to them.
56:47I'd agree to that, yeah.
56:48You would?
56:49Well, the thing is now, you've got to work out what the offer is.
56:52Do you want three dragons or four dragons?
56:55I would rather three dragons for sure, 100%. That's an easy choice.
56:58And who would you want to work with?
57:01OK, sure. It's that time. It's that time.
57:08OK. Tuka, thank you very much for your offer.
57:12But I'd like to go with Stephen, Peter and Tiny.
57:18Yeah?
57:20Yes.
57:21Well done.
57:25Well done. Thank you.
57:26Well done.
57:27Rome has brought it home.
57:29You're so much bigger than me.
57:32Securing the support of a top dragon trio.
57:35You've got tall, tiny, medium.
57:38There you go.
57:40And departing the den with a six-figure sum.
57:44Boom.
57:46The Thai boxer-turned-businessman...
57:48Oh.
57:49...fought his corner to negotiate a favourable deal.
57:52It's time now. Now it's time.
57:54His pitch proving a knockout with Peter Jones.
57:58Wow.
57:59That was an emotional rollercoaster.
58:00Yeah, I see you tearing up there, Peter.
58:02Oh, wow. Yeah.
58:02Oh, my goodness.
58:05Woo!
58:09I want to go and see my children and give them a squeeze and tell them Papa done it.
58:22Next time.
58:24Jenna, you have returned.
58:26I have. I came back.
58:27We didn't scare you off?
58:27No, not yet.
58:28There's still time.
58:29I actually completely disagree with Stephen.
58:32Vampire.
58:33That smell.
58:34That is amazing.
58:35This would be the only money we raise over the next 12 months.
58:38That's not enough.
58:38You have no cash.
58:39You're currently insolvent.
58:40Oh, my God.
58:41My inner child is so excited to build that.
58:44Does he look like a cyber man?
58:45You don't watch Doctor Who, do you?
58:47He looks like a cyber man.
58:51From energy bills to student loans, it's the podcast that pays.
58:56Listen to Martin Lewis on BBC Sounds.
58:58This new series is paying dividends.
59:01Stay with us here on BBC One for The Apprentice next.
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