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00:00Atte Jool, beauty journalist, beauty brand founder, host of podcasts including The Big D and Second
00:06Act and fierce advocate for women living life on their own terms. Welcome to Well Enough.
00:11Thank you so much for having me, I'm so thrilled to be here.
00:14So happy to have you and actually we've met before and the last time I saw you we were at
00:18a dinner at Claridge's and it was for a collagen brand and I remember everyone in that room was
00:23different ages and we were all having all of these conversations about how women can feel good at any
00:28age and it was a really nice group of people and we were really kind of breaking down those myths
00:34that
00:34your best years are your 20s and I hear that all the time especially when we're talking about
00:39you know physical health and biological age as a wellness editor I'm constantly bombarded with
00:44you know what is the best age but I don't really think my 20s were my prime and I wonder
00:49whether
00:49you think that yours were. Oh my god I just I'm a very proud Gen X woman born in 78
00:55and the lies we
00:57were said about your life is over by 40 your desirability your worth everything about you
01:04it's farewell goodbye you float away to an island never to be heard of or seen again when in fact
01:09the
01:09opposite is true my 40s have been my most fabulous decade my most empowered happy I've never been
01:16stronger healthier more in love with myself more you know authentically me my 20s I think it's just a
01:24battle just to get through there's so much noise you have to prove yourself so much insecurity now
01:32if you probably paid me 10 million I wouldn't I still wouldn't go back really I wouldn't it's like
01:38I've got been there got the t-shirt and the woman I am now is just so delicious and I'm
01:44so happy to to be
01:46in this era and it's wonderful and I just think it's the patriarchy feeding us the lies that your
01:5440s is the end when it's actually the beginning. Well there's some there's some creepy stuff online
01:59isn't there about a kind of a woman's best age and there's a lot of stuff tied up with like
02:04childbearing
02:05years and all of that I find quite icky personally yeah and I I know certainly from my own experience
02:10that
02:11my 20s were messy you know I didn't really know who I was I didn't know how to advocate for
02:16myself
02:16or why that even mattered and knowing what I know now I don't think I would go back either
02:23I wouldn't want to be in that situation where I didn't feel I had the power that I have now
02:27and it kind of makes me more excited that I've got more power to look forward to based on what
02:32you've
02:33said. I mean I just have the best job in the world where I chitty chat like you for a
02:37living
02:38and speaking to like you know speaking to so many women about their 50s and 60s and 70s plus
02:43it just gets better and better and better and yes the whole childbearing whether you decide to have
02:48children or not does not determine your power who you are so again it's just the misogyny of the
02:54society we've all lived in your power comes from how how hard you love what you give are you of
03:00service
03:01what you bring to the world the joy just the way you the ease of how you move in the
03:06world
03:06nothing to do whether you're a breeder or not I mean I'm I'm very lucky I have my my twin
03:11girls
03:12but if I didn't have my twin girls I'd also be worthy so anything to do with childbearing that
03:17is such a like red rag to a bull it's again just trying to make your worth and you know
03:22again it's
03:23that thing of when you don't when you know when you're perimenopausal your cell by date is over
03:28that's what that's about and it's not it's about what you give to the world. That's it and I do
03:33I see so many instances of women really hitting back against this idea that you should be invisible
03:39once you hit a certain age because you're no longer attractive or appealing and I just think
03:44well all the women I know you know in their 40s 50s 60s they're attractive they're appealing they're
03:50intelligent they've got a lot about them so that these myths just don't stand up anymore. It is all
03:57crumbling falling apart and I hope I am part of the revolution and the fact that we're having
04:02these conversations people can feel good about themselves I think that's what it is it's just
04:07having the conversations. Absolutely and I do want to ask you a little bit about how your 20s went and
04:13how you kind of built up to to being this person that you are now because you're really inspirational
04:18to lots of people online in the way that you talk about your power but I remember reading some
04:22interviews with you talking about your past relationship and your divorce and how you didn't
04:28necessarily feel like you had much power in those early years certainly when you started
04:32going out with your husband. Yeah I mean we were you know I married my first boyfriend I was 19
04:38we
04:39were really in love he was a good friend to me in many ways and I feel really grateful for
04:44the years
04:44we have together this is after a lot of therapy okay this is after a lot of therapy I'm fine
04:50now I put down
04:51my weapons. Thank you for the years of the babies but it wasn't you know my 20s were very reactive
04:59so as a black woman in the beauty industry walking in the world I was told very clearly this is
05:05not for
05:06you I always felt this is not for you you should be very grateful to be here so everything I
05:11did was
05:12always in reaction I was never the prize people always sort of sexually fetishized me but I was
05:16never someone you take for dinner you'd have sex with me but you didn't want me to be the girlfriend
05:20at a fancy do it was very hurtful and confusing and I just was in a fury so I worked
05:28really hard I was
05:29freelance from the age of about 23 because I knew my face my body my hair would never fit I
05:35would never
05:36be a beauty director in those you know 2001 is when I started and it was a very different landscape
05:41and I just knew I wouldn't fit so I went freelance I worked so hard and was like I'll show
05:46you
05:4718 hour days being very destructive with my body in terms of like eating sugar all day crashing all
05:55night working like just I had my babies I went back to work two weeks after having twins just you
06:04know
06:04I was freelance I had my own production company with my husband my ex-husband there was no one paying
06:11like maternity it was like there was no maternity leave so I was like I love you babies I'll stop
06:15double breastfeeding and let's crack on gosh so it's kind of the two of you against the world at
06:19this point yes but it was uh it was a really hard work yeah and I think it was I
06:26achieved a lot and I
06:28think when you're very self-destructive in that way you can achieve a lot and it is that thing of
06:32when
06:32you get patted on the head and the world rewards you with success but it's not necessarily good for
06:38your health so I gave myself type 2 diabetes in that time I gained 11 stone in my marriage which
06:44was a massive red flag I always felt fabulous in my life I always felt really loved and happy and
06:53supported but now I know what I know that wasn't necessarily the case it was you know I was patted
07:00on the
07:01head and I was given the love and support if I was a good girl you know if I towed
07:06the line if I didn't
07:07question and if I was not the most authentic version of myself this is my opinion and as I grew
07:13up and
07:14the apocalypse happened COVID happened the pandemic happened I honestly thought we're all gonna die
07:20I ain't going out like this and I put on red lipstick I started wearing pink I started talking about
07:25politics because I love politics I you know I studied history at university and I can talk about
07:31lipstick and I can talk about Putin I can talk about both I could do this at the same time
07:38one of my favorite articles that you've ever written was that 2023 piece for glamour which was
07:44I'm allowed to talk about beauty and I'm allowed to talk about politics and the gender pay gap I thought
07:49that was exactly it like you hit the nail on the head so perfectly because beauty is political
07:56so political especially if you're talking about it from the perspective of someone like you who has
08:01come through an industry that as you say was not necessarily hospitable to you you understand the
08:06value of writing about these things which I think is phenomenal I mean you kind of change the landscape
08:11of how we talk about beauty in the media well thank you I mean to me beauty is the things
08:17what I like
08:18about it I love is power identity status whether I'm talking about Georgian history medieval history
08:25sumptry colors because you know medieval England you could only wear certain colors if you're a certain
08:32class again I'd go on like CNN I'd be talking with Pierce Brosnan Pierce Brosnan I wish Pierce Morgan
08:40I'd be talking to Pierce Morgan and people are like are you sure you're gonna wear pink are you sure
08:44you're
08:44gonna wear a crown why can't I wear a crown why can't I wear pink like why does that take
08:50away from
08:50my political arguments take away you can dissect my my debates all you want but don't judge me because
08:56I'm wearing like bright pink that's ridiculous there's this idea I mean it's so misogynistic isn't
09:02it the idea that you know women cannot be taken seriously if they take themselves too seriously or if
09:09they're interested in certain things it's a certain shade of I'll tell you what's fascinating in the
09:1418th century men used to wear pink because they saw it as a sign as power and then it switched
09:20right
09:20and then we started to have pink for girls and blue for boys which is just all the gender nonsense
09:25yeah
09:25so like just you know history is just a matter of where the sliding scale is so an 18th century
09:31duke
09:31in a baby pink suit was the height of power because it was a mixture of red and white which
09:36was like
09:36vitality sex blood and white and together it was like wow so like I'm just just just chill my mom
09:46always said pink is a man's color so there you go that's really interesting yeah it's it's a power of
09:51it's a it's a powerful color which is genderless yeah absolutely and I think if we can go back as
09:58well to that kind of beginning of your your journey I remember reading certain things now about how
10:05you have really really enjoyed kind of being your own person and living by your own standards
10:10and I wonder if you can kind of explain what you meant by that I was so young yeah I
10:15was 19 I just
10:16honestly he was the first boy that asked me he was very clever very sweet very handsome he was the
10:24prize and I felt really maybe I felt very picked I felt very like oh what oh I get to
10:30be with you
10:30know the prince of uh white privilege like I don't know maybe that that was that was very definitely
10:38the world was so different then I can't tell you and we have the most beautiful girls in the world
10:43I love them and they were born of love and laughter and friendship but you know I changed he changed
10:49the
10:49world changed and I think if you can't pick each other and you can't have room to be the person
10:57I mean I was thinking about it the other night my whole life I have never accepted the fact I'm
11:04a
11:04unicorn I am I say it out I'll say it proud I'm a unicorn I try to be a donkey
11:09for years to be more
11:10palatable for people to accept me to be less than and the minute you just don't care and you just
11:16put
11:16on your fairy rings and like you know what I'm a unicorn if you can hang with unicorns that's great
11:20we can frolic in the woods other unicorns can find me if you're a donkey that's great but it will
11:27upset
11:27you to play with me so I just think the more I became a unicorn the met the more the
11:33donkeys in
11:33my life didn't like it yeah I mean makes perfect sense to me I love that analogy are you a
11:37unicorn
11:38too I can smell it I mean I would love to identify as one if I'm welcome to the party
11:42you're welcome to
11:43the party thank you so much I'd love to be a mythical creature yes please I also think that
11:49there's a real power in creating a beauty brand where there wasn't much on the scene that was you
11:57know similar and in that article that you wrote for glamour you were talking about how there were
12:03investors or venture capitalists who weren't interested in backing you because they didn't
12:08necessarily think that your brand was quite right or that the black people don't have money to buy
12:14a luxury price point like I could not believe it like 2022 I had a year of just being emotionally
12:21beaten up I went to all these venture capitalists all these rooms of power and you working in beauty
12:26forget because we it's such a it's such a hub of female power and there's so much it's quite diverse
12:32in
12:33a lot of ways and the storytelling is so different then you go into the world and you're like oh
12:37this
12:38is why it's messed up because you're in charge and I just spoke to all these people who were just
12:42ridiculous one man said to me he was in charge of a hundred million pound fund and he said to
12:48me
12:48be honest at a who's your dream investor and I went honestly it'd be a Nigerian businesswoman who got
12:55it and he went Nigerian why not African right and I was like Nigeria is a country and he was
13:04like so
13:05embarrassed he was like uh I'm more comfortable with hair care come back when you have hair care
13:09and that was the end of the meeting and I just thought why are you in charge of the world
13:13and
13:13a hundred million and you don't know that Nigeria is part of Africa yeah my jaw was on the floor
13:17there
13:17I have to pick it back up it's but it's that kind of low-level ignorance and it was just
13:22it was
13:23really I you know it's something like two percent of women get investment and then it's like point
13:28point zero two percent of that is like black women it's um I think money is very important and I
13:35think
13:35when you have investors and people who believe and back you that's when the world changed and I have
13:41you know an incredible investor called Jane Henderson and um another one called William who was
13:48amazing who really believed and backed me and that's how you you change the world by just putting
13:53your art into the world and speaking up and just being the most technicolor version of yourself
13:59absolutely and I feel like you're a really great advocate as well because you didn't pull the ladder
14:03up behind you you decided that you wanted to make sure other people had those opportunities so you know
14:10doing all your advocacy work and making sure that there are funds for other people to be able to have
14:14these experiences is really important to you and I love that yes I started an education foundation which
14:20I'm really proud of there's I can't remember who said it but there's a special place in hell for
14:24people who don't send the lift down right so if you've got any kind of agency or power it is
14:30your duty
14:30to help other people achieve their dreams and to be the best potential version of themselves
14:37so I've supported black and mixed heritage students at Oxford University UAL the London College of
14:44Fashion I had such a hard time formulating my blush of dreams and my foundation makeup foundation that I
14:53was like there's a real problem here it's all these sort of middle-aged men telling me what I can't
14:57do
14:57they were like sorry sweetheart that's not how it's done I've been doing this for 30 years and so I
15:03was
15:03like yeah so I literally went to formulate I became a chemist myself I was in my attic mixing pigments
15:10and I said to someone I do I refuse to believe that if I can look out the window and
15:15see a brown tree
15:15you can't mix it to look like my skin because people put uh you know traditionally they put black in
15:22the
15:22in the mixture and white I don't have black in my skin I don't have white in my skin I
15:26love art I have a
15:28lot of like graphic designer artist friends they would never dream of putting black in something to make
15:32it go darker and it's just you know what would a grandmaster do in the 1600s that's what I asked
15:37myself I mean these colors all exist in nature like you say that's that's wild it's what so I really
15:42like how do you make things better I think my job I want to make things better so you know
15:49I've invested
15:49in uh with incredible brands like Space and K Little Light PR um at P&G Stewart's Foundation at law
15:57firm
15:58they've all really um a vader they've all helped me and can too they've all invested and we've just
16:05it's about redistributing the wealth and helping flood industry with more diversity and I think
16:11that's really that's really important to me absolutely especially in the wellness scene as
16:15well because what I see a lot of is this kind of wellness washing a lot of a lot of
16:20kind of
16:21traditional medicine and indigenous knowledge being whitewashed a lot of this kind of you know let's take
16:27something put a massive mark up on it and then kind of put it in a very exclusive space with
16:31very
16:32exclusive people and I just think wellness is really about health it should be for everyone
16:36so you know do not pull the ladder up behind you yes yes it is about loving yourself and each
16:43other
16:43because that's what we're here for to do literally love and pass it on absolutely hi just a quick one
16:48I hope you're loving Atte's energy as much as I am she was about to explain to me how after
16:5226 years
16:53of marriage she decided to take the plunge enter into a divorce that would ultimately change her
16:58life forever if you're finding this conversation valuable please subscribe to our channel and like
17:03this video it helps us more than you know and I kind of I kind of don't want to ask
17:08you about the
17:09sad times in your life now do it you know what it's who the sad times and the hard times
17:15I always tell
17:16my children I've got twin girls who are 14 and I say to them you will kiss your scars because
17:22every wound
17:22will turn you've got to dig out the crap out of it you've got to hose it down sanitize it
17:29it will
17:29turn into a scar and that scar you will be very grateful for one day because it will help you
17:34be
17:35a warrior so I am very grateful to every scar I have and I kiss them so you tell let
17:42me flash my
17:42scars at you what would you like to know I love that I think well the the idea that you
17:47stayed so strong
17:48you built this incredible empire but at the time you know going through a divorce is no small thing
17:52and I think lots of people don't really understand the process of it they don't really understand how
17:58long it takes or what it entails and also it's a bit of a dirty word still I think people
18:03stigmatize
18:04it so I'd love to ask you a bit more about your experience and how you held it together during
18:08that
18:08period but also help people understand what that even looks like so I was together with my ex-husband
18:16from 19 to 45 that's boy I've had sex with that's everything so we were together about 26 years the
18:24last two to three I probably should have like pull the chain but I'm a child of divorce and I
18:31wanted it
18:32to work and I tried really hard and I can put my hand on my heart and say to my
18:36kids to myself I did
18:37everything that I possibly could it didn't work it's fine but I sort of called time took the shotgun
18:44to the marriage put it out of its misery on the 1st of July 2023 launched the brand into Harrods
18:51on the 5th of July I don't even know it was a fever dream babe I was just twirling I
18:57was
18:57delirious I was happy I was crying I was free I was liberated you know one of my best friends
19:04was like
19:04could you not wait into 48 hours babe and I was like no I want all the emotions all at
19:08once yeah
19:09but also I'm like how can you launch something which was all about joy and sovereignty being a
19:16broken sad bitch no so whatever was the real me I had to be and so I just called time
19:22and it just it
19:24was messy but I'm very grateful for that it's so taboo divorce still where you know you lose friends
19:33you lose family I haven't spoken to my in-laws in about three years or something like well yeah
19:37coming up you you haven't spoken to my brother-in-law you lose friends like godparents it's
19:44like it's really sad and I mean I'm super cool I'm like there's enough blush for everybody babe just
19:51like let's be French about it but that's sometimes not in your power if someone's acting in a way or
19:58feeling in a way yeah I mean it's not just your relationship it's the ripples of that relationship
20:02that you have to grieve too so then you become a sexual pariah because everyone thinks you want
20:06to have sex with their middle-aged balding husbands people trying to all of a sudden nothing that's
20:11wrong with being a middle-aged people trying to matchmake is that happening uh no it's just you
20:15just become a sexual they think you become sexually a predator that you're going to take from them yeah
20:23so suddenly you don't get invited to dinner parties oh gosh because you don't uh you know it's not neat
20:29little couples anymore and so many things happen which I found quite shocking but you also learn
20:36who your friends are that's amazing and I call them my coffee and kicks friends where my best
20:42friends they it's a bit rude but like one of my best friends Laura she said ate what you need
20:48is a
20:48good vibrator and a coffee machine I mean I don't disagree with that I don't I think for life to
20:53be
20:53fair so I literally have a bag of vibrators right from my closest friends and I call them my vibrator
20:59friends now so whoever is your people suddenly we have never discussed this before but suddenly
21:05just being gifted vibrators left right and center listen I used to work as a sex editor at a women's
21:11glossy if you need a vibrator I got plenty I can help you out so I was like you know
21:15who your friends
21:16are because I have a bag full of vibrators and those are my vibrator friends and you just people
21:22scoop you up and love you and hang out with you and they're there for you and you've got your
21:263am
21:27friends you can cry to you're the you know you've got the friends who are like please
21:31buy a bombing his house it's not necessary but god bless you for offering thank you
21:35and it's and everything in between and I started a podcast with one of my best friends buzzy who's also
21:41was going through a horrible divorce and we are both my divorce date is the 24th October hers just
21:48kicked in so we're both on the other side but we've created this incredible community where not only are
21:55we talking about our feelings and the fallout but practical advice your whole life is literally blown
22:01up financially emotionally child care spiritually your identity who am I like I was with someone
22:08from 19 a teenager to my mid 40s who are you you've gone through so many versions of yourself in
22:15that
22:15time exactly and like you know I'd never lived by myself I went from my mum's house to university
22:21to living with a boy and the first time I ever like slept alone in a house and then suddenly
22:26I'm in
22:26charge of two people by myself and solo parenting so it's been really fascinating and I know it's really
22:33connected with so many people and I it's made me really it's really proud work to talk about
22:38I think shame is such a silent killer and I think taking the shame out of so many subjects is
22:44what's
22:44really necessary absolutely because we we judge people in such bizarre ways because of shame don't
22:50we and we judge ourselves yeah and like you say that's killer that can really pick you apart that
22:56shame and the end of a marriage I always saw a failure and one of my really good friends is
23:01called
23:02Lizzie Pickering who's a grief counsellor and she came on as a guest she said how can you see a
23:0626 year
23:07relationship which bore two children as a failure but just reframe it as seeing as a chapters of a
23:14book so thank you for the chapters thank you for the lessons thank you for learning who I am because
23:21without adversity you don't really know who you are so reframing things in a really positive way
23:27instead of like oh god I failed I have a failed marriage which is what I really probably held on
23:32two
23:32to three years because I didn't want to be because I'm such a type a I'm a perfectionist well I'm
23:38a
23:38recovering perfectionist I feel you uh the disease to please yeah I'm in recovery from all of that so
23:45like it's not a failure it is a gift and I thank you for the gift and you may you
23:50may leave now yeah
23:51reframing is the one isn't it I mean it's hard it's really helped me with all of my perceived failures
23:57or my perceived moments where things didn't go to plan and sometimes that's the best like I moved to
24:03the countryside because I had to do a massive detour my health was really bad I was like I knew
24:09if I didn't do something I would die and I remember saying to my ex-husband if I don't see
24:14a tree and some
24:15sheep I will die and I need to go forest walk and I need to forest bathe and I need
24:19to just be
24:21in the Cotswolds and that was the beginning of the end where I chose myself and I chose my wellness
24:26and he's like but where London is and I don't want to go and I was like I'm going you
24:31can come
24:31I said to him I'm a 13 I'm like a 39 year old woman who wants to get pregnant get
24:35on the train
24:35or get off because it's happening and he was like okay and so it was the beginning of the end
24:40but when
24:41I started to pick myself and put my wellness and my health first it sort of disintegrated yeah but in
24:49but I'm grateful for that because that old version died and she had to she probably I would have
24:54probably been dead if I was still in that marriage and I don't say that lightly gosh that really hits
24:58doesn't it yeah my health would have been taken a battering I would have been really it would have
25:03I think I would have had a stroke or a heart attack and that's not acceptable but now you you
25:08know you
25:09turn up on Instagram and whenever I see your videos I catch myself smiling because you're you know
25:14you're emanating all this energy you're really excited about being well and you know being happy
25:21that's really nice to see and I do think it rubs off on people you know I see you with
25:25you talk
25:26about your life coach PT all these great things that you're doing maybe let's talk about some of
25:31the joy let's talk about some of the things that you've done to get to that point where you feel
25:35really good what's that process been like oh that's so sweet of you thank you I mean I love dancing
25:41and I love a batty roll and I think being your authentic self gives people permission to be
25:46themselves yeah so I have lost seven stone um I lost four by myself naturally I just stopped eating
25:53sugar started working out and then the pandemic happened a little bit came on and then I got
26:00divorced and then I was offered I've been offered a zen pic for some time and I was like no
26:06thank you
26:06no thank you I'm not really that sick and also people will think of me as like the real housewives
26:11of
26:11the cotswolds and that's unacceptable and then I thought you know what what the hell do I have to
26:16lose the worst thing in the world's happened my marriage exploded let's get well so I lost four
26:21stone naturally I've lost another three stone with a zen pic and working out with my bb the fitness coach
26:26massive shout out to you and working out at Bamford the club which again has saved my life just
26:32having a safe space where you can if you told me I'd be someone who'd fall in love with the
26:38gym I
26:39would have laughed in your face I like heavy weights I like that promise you make to yourself
26:45like let me do 15 let me do like 15 and then you do it then you do another 15
26:50and you you make promises
26:51to yourself that you can keep and that makes you feel really proud of yourself and you it makes you
26:56trust yourself and in a world where you've maybe been gaslit or you've had a bit of trauma having
27:05things that you can trust yourself on and your body and your your yourself is really important
27:10so I've loved working out I'm really enjoying it I like walking I like being with my friends
27:17I have a new friend who I know he's not my boyfriend I bet people on Instagram think he is
27:22I know hashtag this is not a hard launch he is such a tart you will want me to mention
27:28him
27:28on the podcast okay shout out shout out to Henry Horton who is my first platonic guy friend that's
27:35really important though that you know those friendships like he's it's the opposite of being
27:39fetishized I'm like are you sure you don't have that to me like he's like we are just such buddies
27:44and he's been so sweet to me and he's taught me really healthy masculine energy that's what you need
27:51though isn't it you need that positive masculine energy because we were exposed to a lot of toxic
27:55masculine energy yeah and you're sort of sweetie and like just hanging out with like I saw him
28:00yesterday for after like for Sunday lunch with my girls and just like having a knockabout and just
28:04like having a hot chocolate and just being really wholesome and like we go dancing every Saturday
28:09and the sweet like sweet times and all my girlfriends just draw just living your best life and falling in
28:16love with yourself and like who am I now at 47 and three quarters and three quarters very important
28:23the three quarters yes um I think also going back to the toxic masculinity thing if we can oh god
28:28yes I read a quote from you that said you found dating apps absolutely feral and obviously I'm no
28:35stranger to them having written about sex and dating for many years I mean what was your experience
28:40like diving in there having marriage your first love I will the sex thing and the and the and the
28:47dick pics it's been hilarious traumatizing very amusing I've really discovered so much about myself
28:55through dating the masking the this the that the trying on different outfits I mean if I had a pound
29:05for every time a man said I really fancy grace Jones growing up right and I was like that's nice
29:12yeah
29:12that kind of like okay would you dominate me if I had a pound I'd probably have 50 quid but
29:18not that
29:19much but like no but still you're hearing that a lot and that's weird that's like a weird cultural
29:23script in dating isn't it so like that sort of like powerful black woman right yeah and it's just so
29:30reductive and like I don't know anything like grace Jones she's a goddess I love her yes I'm glad you
29:35like grace Jones I loved her too but like not all black women look alike it's just so weird yeah
29:40so
29:40it's it's so many themes of like um my friend he said he told me a word called bed wench
29:46have you heard
29:47of this it's really gross tell me more where black women men a lot of men in society feel they
29:51can vomit
29:52all their very grotesque sexual fantasies onto black women because we are not the pride we've traditionally
29:58not been the prize so you can put all your dirty fantasies onto me and then onto the sort of
30:03angelic
30:04girl you marry you know the no blow drops vanilla sex life and so I have seen a lot of
30:10very very weird
30:12sexual fantasies that projected onto me and I'm like can we not just see Lord of the Rings and
30:17like go to have some dinner yeah that's so dark I'm so sorry that that's an experience that you
30:22have had to have because going into dating should be should be joyful yeah let's be honest I've met
30:28some lovely people too and I've had some fun dates and it's been terrifying and hilarious at
30:34the same time I've been on Rhea, Hinge, Tinder I was on Tinder for about 20 minutes so I was
30:40like
30:40not the one yeah I'm out and you know what on Bumble to be fair I get a lot of
30:45attention online which
30:46has been hilarious and frightening like I went on Bumble and I had 778 matches or like in like 20
30:55minutes get it gone thank you I'm like thanks for the rising as my children would say thanks for the
30:59glazing but at the same time you just want someone just to like I'm super nerdy and I'm super can
31:05we
31:05not talk about medieval history yeah I love that but you know what I've got a couple of dates this
31:10week let's see what happens yeah just I've changed a lot and I don't yeah it's been fascinating and I
31:20will be discussing it very soon I cannot wait for this podcast it I am all ears fire it will
31:26be fire
31:26and I will show you some of uh I'll show you some of my illicit material yeah after the record
31:30let's uh
31:31let's have a little look behind the scenes I don't know that's legal but if you sent it to me
31:35I will
31:35show everyone I know so that's on you it's a weird one though isn't it I guess with like um
31:41because it's technically illegal now isn't it cyber flashing um is it yeah so if you cyber flash
31:47someone you're breaking the law um in the same way that if you opened your raincoat on a street corner
31:52which used to happen to me a lot back in the 90s really oh my god my mum used to
31:57my mum taught me
31:57the best comeback she's I was like from 11 men have been trying to have sex with me which is
32:02really
32:02disturbing which is probably why I married my first boyfriend I'm like you're safe and you actually do
32:06want to talk about medieval history let's get married um he yeah my mum gave me the best flash but
32:12she goes if you have a flasher you say to him put that ridiculous silly little thing away
32:17I mean as I used to say that one of the tube and men were just like I think it's
32:23just power
32:23taking power away this is it isn't it is it's more about power than it is about being turned on
32:28with that kind of behavior and you know what I'm quite strong and I always I've been boxing since
32:32I was 17 because I've got the hugest boobs in the world so I was like I'm a 34k let's
32:37get let's get
32:38my boxing gloves on so I've always been able to like physically defend myself yeah and I think
32:43that really makes a big difference as well that I'm not I'm not small I'm quite strong and the way
32:49you move in the world when you're physically strong is very different as well yeah when you
32:53are aware of your capability I guess that can help you move in a different way but then also I
32:57think it's sad sometimes that women feel that they have to be strong when they might want to be
33:03soft I know it's like I have these discussions with my friends and she was saying she's quite
33:08petite and she she was saying she she have to she's always very polite to men and nice to men
33:13because it's like please don't kill me yeah that's her default setting yeah I'm like please don't piss me
33:17off because I have 30 years of unhealed rage and here I come and I have some training and I
33:24don't want
33:24to get arrested so I think it does you you are different in the world but no it's sad I
33:29think
33:30to feel safe and to be protected and to feel at ease it's something that should be a right and
33:36it's
33:36not I completely agree with you and I think that's why the pursuit of wellness has maybe become such a
33:41huge um pursuit for so many people but especially women you know women really dominate the wellness
33:47space because I think we are looking for that softness we are looking for healing because our mental health
33:52is attacked all the time like I've got daughters and it's just so they're 14 they've got the snappy
33:58chats they've got the tiki-toks there's so much noise there's so much you know and I you know the
34:04way you parent is so different I'm like just don't like my mum is quite wild and she was hilarious
34:09and
34:09she said when I was 14 back in the noughties like you know 94 or something she's like don't uh
34:16she's
34:17like never she's like no pictures no video and I was like I don't know what that means she goes
34:22you
34:22will do and I was like what on earth okay she was so right but like things that can haunt
34:27you in a way
34:28and that like your career and things like that it's so different I think the best teflon you can give
34:34as a mother or a parent is to give them confidence to know that there is nothing they can't talk
34:41to me
34:41about I'm that mom I say to them I don't care well I do care if you kill someone I
34:48do care if you kill
34:48someone yeah but if you do you call me I'll come with a shovel bleach and a lawyer right we
34:54will get
34:54through it we will get through it do you know what I mean like there's nothing you can do that
34:59I will
34:59not have your back and I will support you um so I think that's that's the way to help yeah
35:05it's I don't
35:05know they're all right they're they're pretty cool girls I want to be there when I grow up
35:09I know right I mean I feel like the confidence on younger people now I often think god I wish
35:14I had that that self-assuredness because I was quite shy and quite insecure and when I look back
35:20I think gosh I wish I'd been more confident and more aware of my power in my 20s and in
35:26my teens
35:26that would have been nice I know I'm like you're I'm like I sometimes I say to my girls I'm
35:31like I
35:31know it's really toxic but just please do not waste one minute feeling insecure about how hot you are
35:37I said from this age to 25 it's never gonna you're hot but you look like this is power
35:42just wield your power you're you know you're you're in your body that you can dance you can move you
35:48can
35:48be free and just don't waste a second I was so insecure and I looked so hot and I was
35:54like why
35:54did I waste that yeah why did I waste my hot years I'm hot now but like it's still in
36:00your hot years but
36:00yeah still in my hot years but it's different like the insecurity of being 19 when you are just
36:05like it's such a waste of time yeah but you feel so old then because you've only ever been that
36:10old
36:10and that's you know the weird so true yeah that's the weirdness of it all you're 19 again
36:18it was hard I had a hard time my like I had a hard time I didn't have it I
36:23did not have fun
36:23but then I see more and more people talking about how oh my god I can't wait to be in
36:27my 30s I can't
36:28wait to be in my 40s and I think maybe people are changing maybe people are I think every day
36:34is a gift
36:36and like because I love history and my girls are like if you could go back in time what era
36:41would
36:41you go back to and I was like I like yesterday as a black woman in Georgian times that's not
36:46cute
36:46girls like like let's just actually break it down I'm really grateful for today I'm grateful to be
36:52who I am where I am all the privilege we have we need even more to push it forward but
36:58I think
36:59I don't know I'm trying to be present and not wish my life away I'm really happy to be right
37:06here
37:06chatting to you 47 and three quarters and not wish my life away so if I just just enjoy the
37:13ride
37:13that's what I say I think that's really good advice yeah and I do think that you offer all these
37:18wonderful insights into how people can live better and be happier I mean if you could give advice to
37:25someone that's maybe maybe where you were and starting to realize this relationship is not
37:30serving me or even this job isn't serving me but they're terrified of what lies on the other side
37:35they're terrified of the unknown and the cracking open what kind of advice would you give them I call
37:41it 2021 at a where I probably knew I should have gone but I was terrified yeah I couldn't I
37:48just had no
37:48idea I could not conceive of a life without this man in this marriage my identity and I would say
37:57on the other side of that is such freedom and joy and self romance and you will be okay and
38:05even when
38:06you're not okay you will be okay and that you have to walk through the fire in a funny way
38:11you know my one
38:13of my bestest bestest friends Laura Hinton little light PR she always says to me burn it down start
38:19again burn it down burn it down take the goddamn match to the house burn it down isn't it and
38:27from
38:28the ashes you will fertilize and rebuild and I think so many of us are taught that oh blow the
38:36fire
38:36around don't let that fucker burn sorry no bring it let it burn and sometimes it has to be it
38:43has to
38:43be purified through fire you know you're so right you're throughout history well you love history so
38:51you know this you know fire is purity it's cleansing so you know it's also well used to burn witches
38:57but
38:58literally you know what my very good friend Chase Pollard who is a beauty entrepreneur she said if you
39:04weren't burnt as a witch you ain't doing something right so I put my hands up please burn me as
39:09a
39:09witch anyone who would have been burnt as a witch you're going to be my friend you can come to
39:12our
39:13party and be a unicorn you can come to my party that's someone who's independent educated and someone
39:17who dances to the beat of their own drum it's not a bad thing I love that and what about
39:21for someone
39:22who is in the middle of it like you know going through a divorce because like we were saying earlier
39:29I think people don't really understand what that entails they think about it in terms of okay
39:34we sign a piece of paper and then it's done what advice would you give someone who's right there
39:38the advice I would give is
39:43do everything in cold blood I'm very hot-headed I am fire fire fire Aries on fire right and
39:52get your money together have a plan be strategic who's going to help you with child care
40:00how you're going to get money if you're in a bad situation can you start saving some money and just
40:06do everything in cold blood and have a plan so I mean you become a different person when you go
40:12through a divorce you see very sad ugly parts of yourself that could be from reactive abuse that
40:21could be from if you're dealing with a narcissist if you can be dealing with childhood trauma coming out
40:27that you're being triggered so many different parts of you will come out and you have to forgive them
40:32heal them and try and get better you know keep you know someone said on our podcast Claire Gilchrist
40:41who's a great guest of ours she's going through a horrible divorce and she's trained to be a divorce
40:46coach and she said keep your side of the street clean and that's all you can do so you know
40:54you get
40:54through so much guilt I was like god I'm blowing up my children's family unit but also I got divorced
41:02because I have daughters and I want you know I honestly looked at my marriage and said would I want
41:08my daughters to be in this marriage and the answer was no so why are you teaching them to be
41:14in a marriage
41:15like this by staying so pick your battles get a war council together download the big D with that A
41:22and
41:23Buzzy DM me I've got your back it's fine and just get your people together and also the people who
41:30you
41:31can trust and I don't say that this lightly you really find out very quickly who your friends are
41:36you will lose people be prepared for that you will gain people be prepared for that but get a war
41:41counsel together be very strategic and also do what my friend did which was genius where she went
41:49and saw all the top 10 best lawyers in the country to block her husband from having access so they
41:56can't go and work with them after somebody's already seen them on the other side she's a genius
42:01so that's my gift to you gosh that is strategic yeah but then I guess strategy and discipline
42:06you know in all aspects of self-preservation and wellness they really really help we often think
42:12about wellness as being quite kind of airy-fairy and quite woo for me some of my greatest wellness
42:19techniques and wins have been the result of discipline that I didn't have before and actually
42:23that says a lot I am hearing you discipline I think I'm a very hard-working person but I can
42:31lack
42:31discipline I'm like a firework I'm like pew pew pew pew and then I'm like I'm bored I'm over at
42:36ADHD and I think discipline is the chugga chugga chugga the day in the day out the day in the
42:41day out
42:42which I'm working on and I've just started the soothe program with Naheed who's the human method
42:49who's a beautiful friend of mine and discipline and ritual will save you and I think I mean also being
42:57a mum really helped with divorce or having some kind of structure my friend like Laura she's like
43:02get an animal and I was like I've never had a pet before and I was like she goes your
43:06children are
43:07suffering get a pet and I got a kitten and I was like oh god and I love this cat
43:12more than my children
43:13like this is my animal she's called opal caramel jewel I love her she's so sassy and just the ritual
43:20of having to get up and feed her so if you can get a pet if you can get a
43:24cat or a dog if you're
43:26going through a tough time because you were forced to get up if you're depressed and you're feeling a
43:30bit sad a little cat purring on you and being like feed me feed me like play with me that
43:36that was
43:36really healing so I got a cat in December uh 2023 and I love her I could not agree more
43:43when I went
43:44through my big like Saturn return my big cracking open my big breakup in in um 2018 I then got
43:52my
43:53little dog Ivy Valentine oh and she saved my life literally and I mean she is my child my wife
43:59and
43:59my life yeah and everything revolves around her and she was a tiny nightmare but what kind of what
44:04breed is she she's a little Pomeranian I want a pom-pom she is so cute tell me that I
44:09want I'd love a
44:10little pom-pom yeah I mean her smile is an antidepressant she looks at you and she grins and
44:15you just you just feel happy it's energy it's an energy exchange so my little caramel
44:20oopsie dopes I have so many pet names for her you you must like it's part of having a pet
44:25pet yeah
44:26and she's really sassy and like she's a queen and she's like one of my daughters so I love that
44:30an animal helps if you can it's really good for this or go yeah or go be like work in
44:36a shelter or
44:36something like go go be with some animals and good people I don't really trust people that don't
44:40like animals I don't know if I should say that in the podcast but I don't know your heart chakra
44:45is like closed and my I think my heart chakra was closed for a long time and I think healing
44:50is all
44:50about opening yourself up and being at ease and I think when you're like this is a bad relationship
44:57or toxic relationship it could really really you don't realize how it's really bad for your health
45:04in so many different ways yeah I think you're so right I think learning to love an animal can help
45:10you learn to love yourself again and learn to love other people again and it's baby steps isn't it
45:15yes and just being very kind to yourself be kind to yourself and you don't have to be perfect which
45:22was a hard one for me because as you know I think I think perfectionism was a huge part of
45:28my survival
45:29as a child and letting that go is quite helpful yeah well we are anti-perfectionism on this podcast
45:37we are well enough and that is the whole point I love that I know it did trigger me I'm
45:42not gonna
45:43lie I'm sorry I'm gonna cover these well no no it's good I need to like well enough good enough
45:47my daughter said that to me Adana who is just the one of the coolest people I've ever met she's
45:55the spreadsheet queen to like I wouldn't say she's neurotypical but she's like she's very very very
46:02cool and she said to I remember when she was little and I said to her Adana your presentation is
46:07very
46:07important and I was giving her all this toxic nonsense that because growing up being black
46:12you had to be perfect you had to be present you had to be 10 times better to just have
46:16half as much
46:17that was what I was taught and I was like say your hair this did it did it and she
46:22went she was like
46:23seven she went mommy it's good enough I'm okay it's okay and I just remember wanting to burst into
46:29tears she triggered me from saying that but then I didn't want to put all that angst on to her
46:35I
46:36didn't want to load her up with a you know within one generation she didn't have to have that disease
46:41to please perfectionist to be accepted into circles and to and she was like it's good enough I'm okay I'm
46:47just
46:47going to school one hair's out of place it's fine you know and uh she yeah she taught me that
46:54it's
46:54funny how your children can teach you they are teachers hitting you with that wisdom at seven
46:58years old that's pretty big shame it not shaming it was illuminating yeah but then they don't carry
47:05a lot of the crap that we take on yeah please put down like you know your children teach you
47:11to put
47:12down the back you don't even realize you're carrying bags of trauma and then when they say stuff that
47:17to like that to you're like oh god like it is a different world and also she is a different
47:22she has a different experience to me she's mixed heritage the way she works walks in the world the
47:27way people react to her in the world is very different the time that is different she's living
47:31in a world which is post black life matters it is her experience is very different to mine
47:35and that is very interesting yeah absolutely but I also think the more that we can kind of cultivate
47:44communication softness oh softness I always thought was weakness yeah I did too and I think
47:49actually now knowing that it's okay to be vulnerable it's okay to say I'm I'm not capable of doing all
47:56of that right now can I have some grace yeah you know that's a big one I mean literally you
48:01literally
48:01feel like what do you mean I can do it I got it I got it I can do it
48:06I got it even if you break
48:07you can still do it that and I did break my health broke type 2 diabetes is not a joke
48:14I call it a gift and a curse it was a gift because my body gave me a warning shot
48:20it's like type 2
48:21diabetes today a heart attack tomorrow unless you get it together so it was and I would have just I'm
48:27that person I just I'd keep going until I was just face down and so learning how to rest has
48:33been a
48:34really big one and like and not feeling guilty for it right I'm not feeling guilty and like
48:39uh I have a really amazing therapist and she said you have to take one day off and I was
48:44like excuse
48:44me did you just swear at me I don't know her I'm like sorry what like every day is a
48:49work day every
48:50day is a rest day but um Friday is a day I have to like have where I don't book
48:56anything in which is
48:57just wild oh I love that though just taking that full day for yourself just be like oh it could
49:03be like
49:03like an admin did well a day where you're just not running around yeah being a headless chicken
49:07and uh that's there do my food program and I'm gonna try and I'm seeing BB for a session um
49:15on a
49:16Friday and just being a little bit more at ease and I think putting petrol in the tank you actually
49:22go you go harder you go faster it's counterproductive working working working until you're sick
49:27and I was always sick I was always having a flu I always had a cold I was always never
49:31a hundred
49:31percent I was always working a hundred percent and never feeling a hundred percent it's better
49:35to work you know well enough good enough put in effort do your best and then just give it up
49:43go with grace I'm learning that it's hard it is hard and I think it's something that we all could
49:50probably do a bit better at but you know we have been collectively taught that if you push harder you
49:56push harder you push harder you will be rewarded but no one ever told us that you might burn out
50:00on the
50:00way oh I think the burnout did you burn out did you have a burnout I've had a couple of
50:05experiences
50:06where suddenly it's hit me and I thought what's what's wrong like why why is the brain glitching
50:11why am I not happy why am I not functioning and you know that was it and you are forced
50:16to stop
50:17yeah if your body forces you through illness if you don't stop if you don't take little breaks
50:22and give yourself a rest you'll have a big break and that's not good that's what we're here to stop
50:28so I've learned I've learned my lesson thank you type 2 diabetes which I'm reversing
50:34I'm actually technically I'm technically pre-diabetic another I reckon another two stone
50:41I will be not diabetic like be gone and that's what I'm aiming for it's pretty cool that you're
50:48able to share that with everyone though and kind of and explain to people that you know health is in
50:53your hands and you can make changes and you can do things that ultimately will help you to feel
50:57better I think it's quite I mean I don't like using the word brave but you know it's quite brave
51:02to
51:02actually show up and say to people look this is what I'm going through this is what I'm doing because
51:06it helps them as well thank you I mean I'm really proud to be working with Diabetes UK as an
51:11ambassador
51:11I I did an old goal against my body I feel so ashamed about that I'm so angry I've been
51:18gifted
51:18this like incredible machine I messed it up I messed it up through not having healthy coping mechanisms
51:30you know I wasn't taught them but you can teach yourself I take full responsibility and it was
51:37really shaming I felt so embarrassed it was 2016 was uh when I found like 16th of August 2016 was
51:45my
51:45diabetes day and I was just really shocked and I was like I wasn't that shocked I was waking up
51:50sweating and like with heart palpitations and like you know my skin took me because I'm such a beauty girl
51:57I was like this is not my skin and you know not the shaking the vomiting the diarrhea the kind
52:02of like
52:03cold sweats that didn't that didn't take me to the doctor my skin looking horrific took me to the
52:08doctor and I said something's not right with me I've got open pores this is not my face what's going
52:12on and then the doctor was horrible and she said you have got something wrong with you can you guess
52:19and I was like cancer I'm gonna die and she was like no you're type 2 diabetic and I was
52:23like
52:23don't patronize me over it so horrible yeah and so and it is that there's so much shame with
52:30diabetes type 2 diabetes it's like yeah silly thing you did it to yourself you're an idiot
52:35and really horrible and mean and it wasn't supportive and it's like I think people really
52:40don't understand like addiction and sugar addiction I mean honestly I should have I probably should have
52:45been an alcoholic stroke pill popper but I'm far too ambitious so I'm like I'll be fat give me some
52:50sugar saddle up it was such a coping mechanism if I was sad I ate if I was happy I
52:56ate if I was
52:56lonely I ate if I was successful I ate and it just really powered me through and I was working
53:0218
53:02hour days and I had such I had to prove myself all the time I was never good enough you
53:08know I went
53:08for jobs I knew I was just that you know I wasn't a size six little blonde thing from Hertfordshire
53:14I was
53:14never going to get the job people were hired over me that I was qualified to do I was doing
53:18the job
53:19that was just how it was and I had to just be like power through that and that was my
53:25coping mechanism
53:27yeah and it wasn't a very good one so you know go for a walk instead go for a walk
53:33instead and do
53:33some light weights that's why that's what we've learned from that do you know that one piece of
53:38advice if I could give advice to anybody it'd be to pick up the weights but we've been so
53:42indoctrinated into the idea that women don't lift weights and I'm really glad we're kind of shaking
53:46that off now because bone health yeah I I was really worried about my own thinking oh god I'm
53:51going to be so frail when I'm older if I don't start lifting now so I'm glad that I am
53:55um but
53:57yeah I think lifting weights is really cool so whenever I meet someone else that does it I'm like
54:00yes I like to lift heavy and I just yeah just being strong this is the thing when we you
54:07know
54:07the 90s have gone the special k diet cabbage diet all this I really rejected diet culture with two hands
54:14I was like really and you know my mom is very beautiful and she was beautiful she is beautiful
54:20but she was that I was a I was a size 10 I was the prettiest girl in the fair
54:25she was like you know
54:25right my mom was a dip you know she was a diplomat's wife and just very glamorous 80s rich bitch
54:30and I was
54:31just like that's nice no thank you and I you know with every bite of chocolate cake I rejected all
54:37of
54:37that and so a really good therapist of mine said everything in your life up until this point has
54:43been reactive it's like I'll show you I'll work really hard I'll show you I'm a size 24 and fuck
54:50you all and I'll show you and it's the first time in my life I'm picking things for me and
54:55I'm doing
54:56things not in reaction to society or people or family or relationships but I'm like what do I want
55:02what's pleasant for me what will give me pleasure and joy and that's really delicious and I'm so glad
55:08I haven't I'm still alive that I can get to be this version so everyone makes it absolutely I mean
55:15that's I think that's really inspiring the idea that you've decided I'm going to make my own choices
55:20because so many people don't they do just sleepwalk through and they the choices that they make are
55:25really reactive and really programmed in yeah so I love that and I think that's incredible advice
55:30I do want to ask you for one more piece of advice if I may I always ask my guests
55:35what their one
55:36wellness non-negotiable or their one tip for feeling well enough would be I know that we've
55:41mentioned so many different things in this chat so you've got so many different bits and pieces of
55:46wonderful advice but what would your one tip be people really are healing to me so pick curate your
55:55circle create your connections your who do you surround yourself with what are the people what
56:01are the conversations you're having what is your feed on the social media look like what is that one
56:07of the books you're reading what is the information one of the podcasts you're listening to connection is
56:12everything to me and it really heats me up like it is I'm a radiator people make me feel good
56:18being
56:19talking makes me feel good my family and friends make me feel good so you know pick your mental health
56:26over blood pick your mental health over what you think you ought to do and that you will always be
56:33okay so the connections you have around you you know my one of my mum's best friends she is um
56:40she's a psychic I've grew up with so many mediums and psychics and everyone in my family is witchy
56:45woo woo and I'm a bit witchy woo woo and I remember when I was 16 so this is before
56:50the internet
56:50she said to me ate this is so creepy she said to me ate one day you're gonna have a
56:57million electric
56:58eyes on you and you have to really protect your energy and you'll have to imagine mirrors all around
57:05you reflecting all the negativity back and just really protect your energy and I remember thinking
57:11okay electric eyes yeah she was describing the internet internet yeah that is wild and I was
57:16like and she you are saying about how I'm gonna be big on social media and I was thinking just
57:23the
57:23other day god she was so right but if you can imagine mirrors all around you reflecting all the
57:29juju all the bad negativity and then keep the heat and love of people who really want you to do
57:35well
57:36and there's lots of people who there's layers of friends they want you to do well but not as well
57:40as them we need to get rid of those so the people who want you to win with their whole
57:44heart and they
57:45want you to fly those are the people you stick around you and everyone else can be slidely edited
57:51to one side and don't be frightened to edit people some people have to go you have to prune the
57:57bonsai tree
57:58and then you will be happy I think that is stellar advice and it's advice that I myself have
58:04followed and I'm trying to follow better because I do think as you say everything's a mirror yeah so
58:10it's how you talk to yourself it's who you surround yourself with your social media feed as you say
58:15it's everything like the the news you read the people you have the conversations you have chats to
58:21do not waste your energy talk try to convince people of your you know if you talk to very like
58:27destructive irritating people I'm at that point you'll be like you know what god bless you
58:32you are 152 years old I'm never going to change your mind about racism or this or that I'm not
58:38going to waste my breath you live your life go in peace be happy well be well just do not
58:44waste a
58:44single ounce of your energy convincing people who don't want to be convinced of something just live
58:49your life live well just be with your people be with your unicorns
59:02you
59:02you
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59:02you
59:02you
59:02you
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59:02you
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