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Designing the Future: 5 Lessons from a Decade of Hypergrowth
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00:00Bonjour, merci d'avoir eu.
00:03Why does France matter to you guys?
00:05You guys are in Australia.
00:07You made the trek out here.
00:08France is actually our highest penetrated market in all of Europe.
00:131 in 7 French people use Canva.
00:16Incredible.
00:17Your numbers are amazing.
00:19We're going to come to that in a minute.
00:21I want to talk about the Canva story, obviously,
00:24and I want to start with a note
00:26that I think will really resonate with this audience.
00:29You guys are Australia-based, but a lot of people think you're American.
00:34And you guys have kind of broken every single rule.
00:37You're like the poster child of doing things the non-Silicon Valley way
00:41and getting away with it really well.
00:44I want to know, when you started out, were you met with, like, tons of skepticism?
00:48Like, were people just telling you, why are you based in Australia?
00:50Like, you should just leave.
00:52Yeah, absolutely.
00:53We were actually rejected over a hundred times
00:56before we got our first round of investment.
00:58And the rejection reasons were, quite frankly, well, the CEO is also my wife,
01:04and so that was the problem.
01:07US investors, we had no venture capital industry in Australia
01:11when we first got started 12 years ago.
01:13A lot of investors only wanted to invest in US companies.
01:16They always said, oh, I want to invest in a company I can ride my bike to.
01:19And we're like, well, I hope you got strong legs.
01:22And we had a good sense to swim as well.
01:26So you got a hundred no's from US investors.
01:29Any, there were no Australian investors?
01:31We did end up getting a couple of Australian investors.
01:34Okay.
01:34In the end, yeah.
01:35And then you kept your headquarter in Australia, and you added Sequoia, Bessemer.
01:41I mean, your investor list is insane.
01:43You guys have raised like half a billion.
01:45So somehow you convinced them.
01:46What worked?
01:47We've raised like billions now, but not directly into the company
01:51because we're a private company and profitable.
01:53But we do employee secondaries every year.
01:56And so there's been over billions of dollars raised, I guess you can say.
02:01Super.
02:02So I'll come back to kind of the stuff because I'm sure you guys have,
02:05you've clearly married your co-founder.
02:07You've kept your headquarter in Australia.
02:08We'll come back to other stuff that you guys have done that's a little off the common path.
02:14But take us back to the early days of Canva.
02:16And actually when people talk about Canva, sometimes they even talk about a company before.
02:20And I don't know if there was a link between the two.
02:22Tell us about the start.
02:24Yeah.
02:25Good question.
02:25So how did we get started?
02:27We, Mel, who's my wife, she was teaching design at university.
02:31She was teaching the Adobe suite.
02:33And after six months of teaching these students, she realized they only learnt the basics.
02:38And she thought in the future design is going to be easy, collaborative, online.
02:43And essentially the path to having an idea and turning it into a visual piece of content is going to
02:48be a lot easier than it currently is.
02:50Because before Canva you had Adobe and then you had Microsoft PowerPoint and Paint.
02:54Nothing in between.
02:55So to create any type of poster, social media graphic video, it was incredibly cumbersome.
03:01But we were like two kids.
03:03We were like 19 at the time in Perth, Western Australia, which is one of the most isolated cities in
03:07the world.
03:08And we had no money.
03:09So we're like, okay, how do we take this idea and actually build it into a business that can make
03:15money?
03:15And we didn't know anything about startups.
03:17We thought we were a small business.
03:19So we got out a business loan.
03:20And we paid a development firm to build the first version of what was Fusion Books.
03:25So I was a school teacher at the time.
03:27And we had this big idea for Canva, but ultimately we needed to apply it to a smaller market that
03:33we could sell to really quickly.
03:35And we realized school yearbooks was that market.
03:38Because I was witnessing that problem firsthand while I was teaching at schools.
03:43So we built that business for five years.
03:45And then all the teachers, they started wanting to use Fusion Books to create newsletters, to create social media graphics.
03:52And surely someone's done this by now.
03:55So we poked our head out of the yearbook market and realized no one was doing it.
03:59And so that's what we took the leap.
04:01We went to the US.
04:02We got rejected all those times and then finally raised money and hired a team to build Canva.
04:08Incredible.
04:08So you guys kind of witnessed some user behavior and then you built a company based on what you were
04:14witnessing.
04:15But tell me, I imagine we have a lot of maybe potential early stage companies in the room.
04:20What's your advice to someone who's just starting out?
04:23I think, well, it's interesting times because the technology now with AI has just changed the game.
04:30So where six months ago or a year ago, I would have said, make sure you're solving a customer problem
04:37and find a real problem to solve.
04:38There's actually totally new paradigms that are available now with AI.
04:43And so you can normally you don't start with the technology and think of a business.
04:47But in this case, it's actually a good time to do that.
04:51But ultimately, you need to solve a problem that people care about and ultimately that they're prepared to pay for.
04:56So, Cliff, fast forward, you guys are now at, is it 250 million users or is it?
05:02Yeah, 240.
05:04My God, that's just like.
05:06That's monthly activity.
05:07Is that like four times the size of the French market?
05:09It's insane.
05:10Anyway, tell me, how do you guys do that from Australia?
05:14How do you, what are the steps you guys took to get there?
05:18Yeah, I think whenever you're building a business from a market that isn't a dominant market, and France is probably
05:25a market like that, right?
05:26The population of France is how big is it?
05:28How big is France?
05:29Probably 70 million.
05:3070 million, right?
05:31We're 30 million in Australia.
05:33It's not really a big enough market to build a $50 billion company in, right?
05:38So, we immediately took an international approach from day one.
05:43We saw our target market as the U.S.
05:45It is everyone's biggest market at scale.
05:48So, we tackled the U.S.
05:50And then we did something that not many companies did very early on, which was we localized.
05:55And we converted Canva firstly into 20 different languages, then 100 different languages.
06:01And what that meant is we grew in all these different markets, and now well over 50% of our
06:07user base are non-English speaking, and used Canva in non-English.
06:11So, definitely taking a global focus from day one and not getting bogged down in our local market was, I
06:16think, a smart strategic move we did.
06:18Super.
06:18And you say you did that early on, but what is early on?
06:20Is that in year one?
06:21Is that in year five?
06:23What's early?
06:23It was in year two.
06:24Oh, wow.
06:24So, we built the product, got it out, and then we internationalized it, which was a big lift, but it
06:29was something that paid off.
06:30Super.
06:31So, now I want to come back to what we initially talked about, kind of you guys not playing by
06:34the book.
06:36Anything else you guys did or any other advice that you think just doesn't apply to every single startup that
06:42is created?
06:44One of the lessons we learned was when you're a smaller company, you see people from big companies, Google, Facebook,
06:52et cetera, et cetera, and you think they know everything, right?
06:56But, like, ultimately, when you're building a company, especially in the early days, and I'm coming right back to this
07:02now, you want, like, people with a founder mentality.
07:05You want hustlers.
07:06You want people that are first principle thinkers and are frustrated with bureaucracy.
07:11Because as a company grows, you need to constantly fight bureaucracy and slowness.
07:18And you also need to make sure that you don't start shipping your organizational structure into your product.
07:23It's really, really important that you keep simplicity and the user first and at the front of everything you do.
07:32And it's very easy to get distracted as a company grows to start sort of, like, orientating more towards the
07:38organization you're building rather than a really simple product for your customers.
07:42Very interesting.
07:43So, you kind of mentioned a little bit the kind of profile you look for, but be very specific.
07:49When you guys are hiring, what are you looking for?
07:53So, firstly, like, a good human, because you spend a lot of time at work, and you want to work
07:59with people you like working with.
08:00The second is, like, raw intellectual horsepower.
08:03You want someone that's smart.
08:05You want someone that's, like, good at solving problems and thinking for themselves.
08:09I think a lot of people like to be managed and like to have a boss.
08:14I don't like those people.
08:16I prefer people that are, like, slight agitators.
08:18And they, like, the people that work with me, I love to be challenged by them and be like, hey,
08:23this is like, what about this?
08:24What about this?
08:24I'd rather, like, hold people back and for them to ask for forgiveness, not permission.
08:29So, we really try and, like, hire for that entrepreneurial mindset, which is a good segue.
08:34We're hiring a country manager in France.
08:36So, if any of you know anyone good, France is going to be a huge market we're investing in heavily.
08:42So, anyone good with that entrepreneurial mindset, come speak to me or ping the team.
08:47It's great.
08:48I love it.
08:49I hope everybody...
08:49Shameless, shameless plug.
08:50You definitely should.
08:51You should take advantage of it.
08:52So, you kind of talked about the type of profile you're looking for.
08:55I find it really interesting because I think a lot of people, when they look for a country manager,
08:59they're looking for someone who's already been a country manager.
09:02You guys are not necessarily looking for that.
09:04So, it's not necessarily someone that checks all the boxes, is it?
09:08No.
09:09I like to hire people for distance traveled as well, not where they're at.
09:15So, if you, for example, grew up disadvantaged and you managed to, like, get yourself through
09:22school, go to university or get a job and grow through a company, I over-index for that
09:28journey more than someone that went to Stanford and became a software engineer at Google.
09:33Like, that's a very, like, well-trodden path.
09:35But...
09:36And I like people with, like, obscure backgrounds.
09:38And at Canva, we also like to promote from within.
09:41So, my EA is now our head of people.
09:45And so, I don't like to see the boundaries of, like, oh, you studied this or blah, blah,
09:48blah, blah, blah.
09:49It's like, who are you as a person?
09:51Are you smart?
09:52Can you solve problems?
09:53And if you can, like, go do it.
09:55And then constantly giving people bigger and bigger challenges.
09:57And it's so funny because if you constantly push people outside their comfort zone, people
10:03start to realize, like, oh, shit, I can do this thing that I never thought I'd be able
10:07to do.
10:07Then they get hungry to do more and more and take on bigger challenges.
10:10And I find watching people on that journey very exciting.
10:13Very interesting.
10:14And so, today you guys are, I think, over 10 years old, over, is it 5,000 employees?
10:20How many offices do you have worldwide?
10:23Do you have, like...
10:24A lot.
10:2510 or more?
10:26I don't know how many.
10:26We've got...
10:27I mean, we made seven acquisitions in Europe alone.
10:32And most of them had offices.
10:35I think we've probably got 20 offices or something.
10:37Super.
10:38Well, we're going to come back to the acquisitions question in a minute.
10:41But how involved are you and Mel in today's hiring process?
10:46Because I also wonder, when the team scales, when the team goes international, what can you
10:51still be involved in when you're hiring?
10:54That's a good question.
10:55Because, on one hand, the way I like to sort of lead our teams is be very empowering.
11:01Like, go do this, all the trust in the world.
11:04In some areas, I like to really micromanage.
11:07And so, I still approve every hire that comes into the company.
11:10I get their hiring packet.
11:12Because I think the talent you bring into the business is what makes your business.
11:16So, compromising on talent is something I'm not prepared to do.
11:21Also, I realised as we grew, the company started spending money.
11:24Like, not like I would spend money.
11:26And they weren't thinking about it with a founder's mindset.
11:29So, I also approve every expense over $10,000 now as well.
11:33But that's going to change soon.
11:35Sometimes you need to micromanage and sometimes you need to give gross empowerment.
11:39I love it.
11:40I think it's brilliant.
11:41I've seen a lot of great teams function like that.
11:44And I think it's great advice.
11:45So, you kind of walked into this question yourself, Cliff.
11:47So, I'm coming back to the acquisitions.
11:50And this is something I actually really want to highlight.
11:52Because I think it's something we definitely don't do enough of in France, in Europe.
11:57Our companies, our start-ups, they don't acquire.
12:00They're starting to develop this culture.
12:02But they definitely haven't acquired nine companies as you guys have.
12:06Seven of them you said are in Europe.
12:07Tell us, how do you approach M&A?
12:15I guess anything you're doing when you're building a company.
12:19Like, we're a product company, right?
12:21So, we measure our success on what we can build and deliver.
12:24And how users gravitate, use those products, and ultimately pay us for those products.
12:30So, every time we're thinking about a new space to enter, we think, what is the fastest path to success
12:36here?
12:37And sometimes that may be building it.
12:39And a lot of the times it could be buying it.
12:40So, AI, for example, we didn't have a strong research team.
12:45And there was a company in Sydney, Australia, our backyard,
12:48that were doing foundational model development for images and designs and video.
12:53And so, it was just like a perfect fit.
12:55And that was really, as much as a product acquisition, it was a talent acquisition to bring in an amazing
13:02research team
13:03that could really, like, get us off to the races there.
13:05And so, that's a great example of one.
13:09Other areas, it's like, yeah, hey, this is the product direction we want to go.
13:12Or this is the skill gap we have.
13:14Can we acquire and accelerate our path to success?
13:17Because time is money.
13:18And if it takes us a year and a half to build a product, or it costs us $100 million
13:23to buy a company,
13:24sometimes that $100 million is actually far cheaper than waiting to get a product to market for 18 months.
13:32That being said, buying and integrating companies is never as easy as you think.
13:36So, often the integration can take longer than building it, like, by yourself.
13:43But one of the key things with acquisitions, you're also acquiring founders.
13:47And I think the more founders and the more people with a founder's mindset in your company, the better the
13:53company.
13:53So, a lot of the founders we've acquired are leading large parts of the company, and that's a net win
13:57for Canva.
13:58And you can't put a tangible price on having people with a founder's mindset.
14:03There's this talk that I really like.
14:05It's called Barrels and Bullets.
14:07It's by Keith Rabios.
14:08You should look it up.
14:10And he talks about, you can only, you've got bullets in the company and you've got barrels.
14:15Like, and you can only take on as many projects and opportunities as you've got barrels.
14:21And then you can stick lots of bullets through the barrels.
14:23So, you need to be hiring those barrels and that allows you to do lots of things concurrently.
14:28And at our scale, you need to be doing lots of things concurrently.
14:31That's really interesting because I don't know every founder would love to have other founders in their company.
14:37Sometimes they can see it as like a conflict.
14:39But for you, it's been very positive and that's something you seek out.
14:42Do you guys actually have an M&A dedicated team internally?
14:46No.
14:47No.
14:47So, how does it work?
14:51Well, you kind of look, yeah.
14:53I toyed with the idea of getting an M&A team and I gave someone that role internally for a
14:58while.
14:59And then just like every week, they were sending me companies and I was just like, stop it.
15:03This is annoying.
15:05And so, right now, we're a lot more like sniper.
15:09It's like, hey, there's a space we want to go into.
15:11We'll map the market.
15:12We'll understand who the players are, what their funding is.
15:15There's a sweet spot.
15:16You find the sweet spot, reach out to the companies, talk to them.
15:21And then you make the pitch of like, hey, 1 plus 1 equals 10.
15:26And what we can do together.
15:28Often, it's a smaller company that doesn't have the distribution we've got.
15:32So, we talk about how our distribution with their tech can achieve a lot more together.
15:40Yeah.
15:40And that's generally a successful conversation and they bring them into the business and it's good fun.
15:45Beautiful.
15:46Well, we're running low on time and before I let you go, we have to obviously talk about AI.
15:51Tell me about what are you guys doing with AI?
15:54How are you guys approaching AI at Canva?
15:57So, the world has changed.
15:59And as a company now that's of a reasonable size, we realize if we don't disrupt ourselves, we're going to
16:06get disrupted.
16:07And so, Canva is now an AI first company.
16:10We are totally reinventing the platform to be AI first and embracing AI heads on.
16:16Not just through the products, but how our teams use AI, how we hire.
16:20So, in our coding interviews now, we encourage, we pretty much, we don't mandate.
16:26But if you're not using AI in your coding interview, we probably won't hire you.
16:31Because all engineers should be, most engineers should be using AI.
16:35And so, it's permeated through every cell of our company.
16:39And you even mentioned that you guys actually went out and made acquisitions to have that AI talent internally.
16:45So, AI is coming from all angles.
16:48Yeah.
16:48Yeah.
16:49Well, we're in creativity and creativity is being disrupted.
16:51And we really think it's been a tailwind to Canva.
16:53So much more content is being created now.
16:56And that content often ends up in Canva for editing, for collaboration, for deployment.
17:02And now you can deploy that content into the wild.
17:05You can measure the impact.
17:07You can feed the insights back in.
17:09And with AI, you can generate.
17:10And so, no longer do you just need to generate one design at a time.
17:13You can now generate thousands of designs at a time.
17:16So, it's a exciting time.
17:18Incredible.
17:18Well, before I let you go, Cliff, we have a ton of builders in the room.
17:23I think we have a ton of Canva fans in the room.
17:25Can we see a show of hands for Canva fans?
17:27My God.
17:28You guys have built something amazing.
17:29Thank you.
17:30Thank you.
17:31What is something that you want everyone in the room to take away?
17:37I think...
17:38I'm sure there's a lot of entrepreneurs in the room.
17:41When we got started, we had nothing but an idea.
17:44And I think with hard work...
17:46This sounds cliche.
17:47With hard work, dedication, a good team around you.
17:50And it's so easy to give up at any point in the journey.
17:54Life and business, it's like the jungle.
17:59It tries to crush you down and kill you at every turn.
18:03But you just got to keep fighting through that.
18:05And every time you fight through adversity, you can grow and you grow and your company grows.
18:10And you just got to keep breaking through those barriers.
18:13So, even if it feels like times are tough, just keep on fighting.
18:18Amazing.
18:19Cliff, it's been such a pleasure.
18:20Thank you so much.
18:21Thanks for having me, Roxanne.
18:22Thanks, team.
18:23Thank you.
18:25Thank you.
18:26Thank you.
18:27Thank you.
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