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Beyond Two Wheels: How Upway is Rethinking Light Mobility
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00:02Bonjour Vivatech, et bienvenue à jour 3.
00:05Je vais commencer par saluer tous ceux qui sont heureux de se rendre à la venue.
00:12Nous apprécions que vous êtes ici.
00:14Je suis très heureux d'avoir cette conversation aujourd'hui avec Stéphane Ficaja,
00:19de Upway, direct de Corsica.
00:22Bienvenue Stéphane.
00:23Merci Chris, super heureux d'être ici aujourd'hui
00:26et de pouvoir parler un peu de Upway et de mobilité et de circulaire.
00:32Donc, nous allons commencer par les bases.
00:35Qu'est-ce Upway ? Qu'est-ce que c'est la mission ?
00:39Upway est une compagnie qui a été fondée 4 ans par Toussaint et moi.
00:44Je suis le co-founder d'Upway.
00:45Et ce qu'on fait est très simple et très complexe au même temps.
00:49Ça n'a rien à faire avec l'AI.
00:51C'est de pouvoir, refurbishing et reselling e-bikes.
00:56Et nous faisons ça autour 8 pays,
01:01dans l'Europe et l'Union.
01:02Across 6 upcentres,
01:05meaning warehouses,
01:06où nous refurbissons nous.
01:08Et nous resellons à l'inclin de consumers
01:11à leur doorstep.
01:12Donc, c'est un peu à propos de ça.
01:14C'est un business qui a été exécuté beaucoup pour les voitures.
01:18Vous devez connaître Carvana dans les États-Unis.
01:22Autohéros dans le monde.
01:23Et nous faisons ça pour e-bikes.
01:26Et, vous savez, c'est intéressant parce que c'est un des concepts.
01:29À un certain niveau, c'est simple.
01:30Comme nous fixons les bikes et nous resellons.
01:33Et nous allons aborder ça plus.
01:34Il y a beaucoup plus d'inclin de ça.
01:37Mais je veux revenir à votre histoire,
01:40parce que c'est le founder stage.
01:44Tell us what you were doing before Upway,
01:47and then kind of how you came into this mission
01:49and got motivated to start the company.
01:52So, basically, like, very quick academics.
01:56I have, basically, I did some engineering,
01:59quantum physics, fundamental math.
02:01So, nothing that helps you fix any bike, unfortunately.
02:05And I spent a bit of time doing finance
02:07and then spent a big time of my professional career,
02:10seven years at Uber.
02:13It was super exciting.
02:15I met my co-founder there.
02:17I was super grateful to be able to build
02:19a consumer business from scratch.
02:21I worked across multiple geographies in Europe,
02:25across EMEA, in the US and Canada,
02:28on different businesses.
02:29And so, that was a bit of a genesis
02:31of being excited by building things
02:34and building consumer products.
02:36So, that was really about it, first.
02:39And then, at one point, with my co-founder,
02:42we wanted to get back to building.
02:45Uber was a post-IPO company,
02:47you know, like, entering S&P 500.
02:51We wanted to get back to something more early stage
02:54to build and to shape consumer habits.
02:57And this is how we got back to, okay,
03:00we want to start something new.
03:01We want to get to building something
03:03and to start Upway.
03:05And the main thing that got us super excited
03:08about Upway is we love shaping consumer habits.
03:12We love to actually see that electric mobility
03:15is a long-term trend.
03:17It's something that really boomed during COVID,
03:20has been slightly more stable in the past year.
03:23But we strongly believe it's something
03:25that will keep growing in people's mind
03:28and consumer habits every day.
03:30At the same thing, like, we are obsessed
03:32about providing the best customer experience
03:34with the best technology
03:36and make sure that we help people move around
03:40with something that has a mission.
03:42And I'm personally, like, in love with circularity.
03:45So that's a bit about it.
03:47Yeah. And so, yeah, again, it's interesting to see
03:49the e-bike phenomenon emerge in many different ways.
03:53And of course, you think about that business,
03:55there could be...
03:56We saw a lot of money spent in certain ways
03:59in terms of e-bike sharing or other businesses
04:01that had mixed results.
04:04But to focus on you guys, I came to France 11 years ago.
04:10and let's say five or six, seven years ago,
04:13there was a big bet on hardware companies
04:16that that was going to be a distinctive thing
04:18that French startups could do.
04:22And I would say, for the most part,
04:24that ended up not working out so great.
04:26Hardware was difficult as a business,
04:31dealing with physical stuff.
04:32You know, SaaS, not to say it's simple, but, you know,
04:36the costs, the variables you control,
04:40it was a lot safer bet for venture capital.
04:43So you're taking a business that refurbished goods.
04:50Again, when I think of fixing a bike,
04:52I think I'm going to take it to my shop.
04:54I'll get it fixed.
04:55Maybe they sell some used bikes there.
04:57But you want to make a business.
04:59You want to scale it.
05:00You want to make it a kind of model
05:03that attracts venture capital.
05:05So what was the initial challenge?
05:08Was it a technical one?
05:10Was it a logistics one
05:12in terms of what you had to kind of map out
05:16before you could convince investors
05:18that this could be more than just two guys
05:21in a bike shop fixing electric bikes?
05:24So that's actually a super relevant point,
05:27which is that a lot of hardware companies
05:30were created, you know, like in the past years,
05:33some with great success,
05:34some with like probably a bit less.
05:37But the main thing that we discovered
05:39is doing manufacturing is hard.
05:44And the reason why it's hard
05:46is that you need to iterate on your product.
05:48Your first product is never going to be easy.
05:51So a lot of companies went out there
05:54to start and create e-bikes.
05:57And then what they discovered is like your first e-bike,
05:59unless you ride like 1 million kilometers
06:02with 10,000 clients
06:04who go through a lot of different situations,
06:07a lot of usage, descent, climbs,
06:10you know, like sand, rain, snow, whatever.
06:13Like you are going to take a lot of time
06:15to build a product that is reliable,
06:17that is convenient and that is comfortable.
06:19So the first thing was being a manufacturer is hard.
06:24The thing about our business
06:25is that we are not a manufacturer.
06:27What we do is that we rely, of course,
06:30on manufacturer expertise.
06:32We work with them.
06:33But actually what we do is that we get bikes
06:36that are used and get it as good as new.
06:40So it's far easier because the product that already exists,
06:43that is already on the market,
06:45so we don't need to invent the product.
06:47And I think that's the main reason why we had,
06:50you know, like investors believing in us.
06:52We had actually great success in even repairing the bikes.
06:55We don't have a lot of quality issues.
06:57When you repair the brand that is very reliable,
07:01of course your bike is going to be reliable.
07:03So that's something that we discovered
07:06and we really stick to actually making sure
07:09that we serve the market, serve the ecosystem
07:11and ultimately the consumer
07:13into bringing them the best expertise
07:16and actually getting a bike
07:18that is actually like the most reliable possible.
07:20And just to be clear, if I'm coming to you,
07:25you'll take any used bike
07:28or do you have criteria for what kind of used bikes you take?
07:31So we only do e-bikes,
07:34so we'll not take a mechanical bike
07:36and we'll take probably like 90 to 95% of the e-bikes out there.
07:41There are some brands, models that maybe we'll not take,
07:44but we generally cover 95% of the e-bikes in circulation on the market.
07:49So even if you're not manufacturing the bike from the ground up,
07:53you have a lot of different models coming in
07:56that could be in very wide range of condition
08:01and have components that are not necessarily standard,
08:06anything from the classic bike parks
08:08to the elements of the electric capacity of the bike.
08:14So in terms of you still need to imagine
08:16set up a logistics supply chain,
08:18some way of managing that you're getting the parts
08:22when you need them, where you need them.
08:26It seems like a very complex task,
08:29but you were able to convince investors
08:30that you would be able to set up this supply chain
08:35in a way that, again, there's one thing to do it
08:38and another way to do it
08:40in a way that's economically feasible
08:43to actually create a business.
08:45I mean, did they...
08:47I imagine there must have been some pushback
08:49or a lot of questions about, okay, can you really get to that to scale?
08:55Yes. And especially when we launched in 2021, 22,
09:00we're still riding like the end of the COVID issues
09:04with supply chain, especially from Asia,
09:07where a lot of parts were manufactured.
09:09So we got a lot of shortages and a lot of questions.
09:12The reality and the great thing about circularity is
09:16if you are a manufacturer, you need a lot of spare parts, like millions.
09:20When you refurbish, the good thing that you need far less,
09:25meaning that, of course, it's hard.
09:27And then I can talk a bit more about it.
09:29But our need for spare parts was far lower than anyone else in the market.
09:36And that means that not only it was less of a drag for P&L,
09:41but at the same time, it was also easier for us
09:44to actually get to small volumes and figuring out what to do.
09:48So if I look at the footprint of Upway today,
09:53can you describe a little bit, obviously you have a headquarters here in Paris,
09:57and then you have how many facilities where you're doing the refurbishment?
10:03So today our headquarters in Paris is where we have our tech teams,
10:08we have our HQ.
10:09France is actually not at all our biggest business,
10:12our biggest market is Germany.
10:14We have two upcenters,
10:16we're going to open probably like a third one this year.
10:19We also present the B&L with one upcenter,
10:21maybe another one year, another one this year,
10:24and then two in the US in New York and LA.
10:27So we are at Quattro in Paris,
10:29we have a coverage that is all Europe,
10:31and Northern Europe is definitely a big part of our business.
10:35And then once you have this up and running,
10:38you have to convince people that,
10:40hey, a refurbished bike is a reliable, safe, affordable alternative,
10:47plus good for the environment.
10:49But that's not always a persuasive case, depending on the consumers.
10:53I think back to my own personal experience with smartphones.
10:59You know, 10, 12 years ago,
11:02I never would have thought about buying a used smartphone or refurbished smartphone.
11:08Today I probably bought my last five or six from back market.
11:12And I understand there's this whole network of refurbishing,
11:17it's a whole massive industry now to refurbish these.
11:20because Apple is in this business.
11:22So that's pretty accepted that that's an alternative that is reasonable,
11:28that I can count on, that has its own value.
11:31When it came to convincing people about, again, a bigger structure, a refurbished bike,
11:36people don't necessarily have a long history of buying e-bikes up to this point.
11:41What was the challenge in gaining that consumer trust and convincing people that this was a valuable alternative
11:49to going out and buying the brand new bike, fancy bike off of some big show floor?
11:56Yeah, so there is a lot to say about refurbishment, how people see refurbished goods.
12:04It also depends on the market, on the perception.
12:06So it's super interesting.
12:09My thoughts are a bit of a following after a few years in this industry.
12:13The first thing is that people, and especially consumers, are in the market to buy an e-bike.
12:21What they are looking for is to buy the best quality at the lowest price, like everyone.
12:27And when you look at the car industry, which is far more developed,
12:31a lot of people buy like secondhand or refurbished because it's a far better deal than buying new.
12:37So our mindset was to start with, our market is not the secondhand market or the refurbished market.
12:44It's the full market of everyone who is having a credit card who wants to buy an e-bike.
12:50Is that for leisure? Is that for a cargo bike for your children? Is that, you know, like to commute?
12:55And then to basically give them the best deal.
12:59And what we have been seeing is that refurbishing was a great way to lead to two things.
13:05One was a huge selection because then you have a huge variety of products.
13:10We have, you know, like more than 3,000 bikes online.
13:13We are literally have the biggest bike shop probably in Europe.
13:16And then we have great prices.
13:19We are 50 to 60% cheaper than you.
13:21So then it becomes very compelling.
13:23If you want to buy a very high-end cargo bag for your family, having that at minus 60%
13:28start to be like a great deal.
13:31But then you start to face the issue of trust.
13:33Meaning that people say, hey, you know, like I've always been buying new.
13:37It's an expensive purchase.
13:39So what should I do about trust?
13:42How can I make sure that I trust this company?
13:44And for us, the only way you can solve it is to have standards that are so high that people
13:50will trust you, will be impressed.
13:52They will have a magical experience and then tell their friends about it.
13:55And for that, I think that companies like Back Market in France, for example, did an amazing job at making
14:02sure that they were putting a great light behind refurbishment and even the term refurbish.
14:11And what is super interesting and the problem we face is that refurbished in French has a positive note while
14:19refurbished in the US has a negative note.
14:22And it's a good signal of how perception can change between countries where you have companies who can really drive
14:30circular economy, explain what they do and provide a great expense to consumers.
14:36Ultimately, we are there for a long run.
14:38We have a sustainable business.
14:40We are growing fast.
14:41We are backed by great investors.
14:43And we know that the main thing we need to keep focusing on is provide the best consumer experience to
14:49provide the maximum of trust.
14:51And then consumer, they will make their minds.
14:53They will choose.
14:54And we think that they will choose ultimately our refurbished bikes.
14:58And by the way, I just want to say, we are happy to take questions from anybody who's feeling energetic
15:04and curious.
15:06Stefan loves to get questions.
15:07So if you put your hand up, I believe we have someone who'll come around with a microphone or you
15:12can just shout it out because we're in an intimate setting.
15:16But meanwhile, I'm going to have a few more questions in our remaining time here.
15:21You mentioned Germany and we talked about this before, but that was surprising to me because I hate to be
15:28too caught up in stereotypes.
15:32But, you know, you think Germany, you think cars for obvious reasons.
15:36They have a long history.
15:38It's, you know, the Autobahn, all the images you have there.
15:42But it's become one of your biggest markets.
15:44Was that a surprise to you as well?
15:46And why do you have a good sense of why that ended up happening?
15:51So, super interesting.
15:53Germany is our biggest market.
15:55It's also, obviously, the biggest market for cars.
15:59And it's also the biggest market for e-bikes in Europe.
16:02And what is super interesting is every time I talk to some American investor, they tell me, you know, in
16:08the U.S., e-bikes will never work.
16:10We are a car company.
16:11I'm like, a car, sorry, markets.
16:13I'm like, you know, German, they probably think that they are a car country also, and they're also an e
16:18-bike country.
16:19Basically, what happened in Germany is super interesting.
16:22It's a true willingness of the government to actually push for manufacturing e-bikes, providing some subsidies through very specific
16:33way, like leasing for employers to make sure that they were developing the usage of e-bikes plus building infrastructure.
16:41And they are, like, far ahead over European countries, except Netherlands, probably.
16:47And a lot of countries are trying to catch up now.
16:50But by doing that in advance, by making sure that consumers were using the equipment, by building infrastructure, they've been
16:57able to develop a huge e-bike economy.
17:00So they have the biggest manufacturer in Europe, at least, and probably in the world, in competition with some Taiwanese.
17:07They have the biggest companies, and overall, they have the biggest brands, the best brands.
17:12They export a lot.
17:13So they really made a lot of effort to actually build a great market for e-bikes and a great
17:19industry.
17:20And for us, it became almost a necessity to go there.
17:24It was a market where we were a bit anxious to enter.
17:27It's always hard, you know, like when you're a French company, to be willing to expand, especially to Germany.
17:31But ultimately, we want well as soon as we understood that German consumers want the same thing as a lot
17:37of consumers.
17:38They want high-quality products with actually, you know, like the lowest price and the best quality and the best
17:46trust.
17:47And this is what we're able to provide and keep providing in Germany.
17:51And I'm sorry, remind me, how many countries are you in now?
17:54So we are operating in eight countries.
17:57We are in France and Spain, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and the US.
18:02Okay, so we just have a few minutes left.
18:05Looking forward and thinking about scaling to the next stage, what are the challenges there?
18:13And what are the criteria you think about in terms of entering new territories?
18:18How you think about that in terms of, again, is it a logistical challenge, a cultural challenge, a financing challenge?
18:25And how you raise the money or convince investors to go along the ride to the next stage?
18:33When you look at the markets, the key thing for me from a geographic perspective is you want to make
18:39sure that you cover as much population as possible.
18:42That's important.
18:43Like small countries by definition of a small markets.
18:47You, of course, look at the GDP and then the size of your existing markets.
18:51So it's a mix of potential for population, potential in GDP.
18:55And at the same time, you're like, of course, where is the status of the markets?
18:59If you have a market where no one uses an e-bike, it makes no sense for us.
19:02I worked at Uber.
19:03So we went very, very far in the long tail of countries.
19:09We're operating in very, very small countries.
19:11that I was given the chance to lead.
19:14And waking up in the morning with an issue in a very small country that is a legal, urgent issue
19:20that takes one day of your brain to understand the issue,
19:23then solve it and make a call, can be very disruptive.
19:28So our take at Upway is we want to focus on the biggest countries.
19:36So we are probably going to stay in Western Europe, US and Canada.
19:39We might actually want to go to Japan at one point.
19:42So we want to keep the option open to go there.
19:44Maybe Australia, but probably that's going to be the key areas we want to be excellent at and focus our
19:50energy on.
19:51Because long term, when we look at the enterprise value of a company, and this is what we tell our
19:57investors,
19:5895% plus will be in the country already operating.
20:01So of course we can go to Italy, of course we can go to Portugal, to Denmark.
20:06We need to go to the UK at one point.
20:08But most of the market that we cover today is actually the future value of a company.
20:14Well, of course I remember those early days of Uber and the drama of country by country and in the
20:19US state by state of course.
20:22But it's also one thing to be, not to say that it was easy, but it's one thing to make
20:27that calculation given that model that sort of, as they used to call it, asset light.
20:33If you had to pull out of a country, okay, we switch it off.
20:36We spent money, we had some investment, we lose that, okay.
20:40Here, you know, if you decide, okay, I'm going to Australia, you've got to create some physical infrastructure.
20:46You've got to put money literally into the ground to create that.
20:50So it's a bit more of a commitment, let's say, to say, okay, we're doing that.
20:55We have this capital expenditure we have to make.
20:59We've got to really be sure to some degree that this is going to make it work.
21:05We can make this work.
21:06So do you have that set criteria?
21:09Is it just the density of the population?
21:12Are there other things you look at to think, okay, this gets us over that hurdle and makes it possible
21:18to make that investment decision?
21:20For sure, the barrier to entry is higher.
21:24It's going to cost you more.
21:25You are going to deploy more capex.
21:27You will need to have more capital to enter a new market.
21:30If we go to Japan, for example, it's going to be probably pretty expensive.
21:34So you probably need to think twice.
21:37Then I think like very fast what you discover and that's my experience expanding to a lot of countries.
21:42Being in eight countries after not even four years was a bet.
21:46I think it was driving a lot of people, including our investor, quite uncomfortable, let's say.
21:54But ultimately, the best way to learn is actually to do it, to be clear that in your mind, you
22:02set some money aside to say, okay, this money will go into trying to make as much progress possible in
22:08this market, to see it as an investment and a test and be ready to pull back and exit the
22:15market.
22:15I think like from a mental perspective, you need to see that as an investment that you do.
22:21And then you don't want to be dying by thousand cuts because you keep investing because you're there and then
22:28you invested.
22:29So you want to stay there.
22:30But at the same time, you also want to go all in because if you don't go, if you don't
22:34try, it will not work out for sure.
22:37Let me just kind of come back to a very personal question now, if you're okay.
22:42Again, I know from the history of Uber that people who were involved in that felt there was a certain
22:48mission to the company, of course, and mobility and what it was doing.
22:52But you even more specifically got into this business because you felt a calling in a sense, an opportunity around
23:00the environment impact in those things.
23:02Now that you're four years into that journey, how do you feel personally about it?
23:09Does it feel like a very different experience leading more directly a mission-led company, one that's focused on impact?
23:18Does it have a certain, again, is this feeling different for you personally, the pleasure, the challenge, the stress that
23:26you take from the experience of being a founder?
23:30Well, I'm not going to lie, Uber was tough.
23:33Like when you go there and you're facing some drawback from taxes, like strikes, governments, it was tough times.
23:45So for sure, the experience is totally different.
23:48I think the inner motivation of being obsessed with mobility and providing people a way to move around for me
23:56is very important.
23:57So I love it.
23:58And for my co-founder, it's super important also.
24:02But there is really a difference between the Uber times where the outside world was having a negative perception at
24:10the company, that changed.
24:13And our business where we only got great feedback.
24:17We are into electric mobility.
24:19We are into basically refurbishments.
24:23And ultimately, we are into building factories in Europe in countries where they are afraid of factories leaving countries.
24:32So honestly, it's doing great.
24:36I'm not going to lie, but very different and also very positive for me and for the mission of the
24:41company.
24:42Great. Well, congratulations.
24:44We've reached the end of our time.
24:45We have the angry red clock now on the wall.
24:48So we're going to stop there.
24:49Please, everyone, give a warm round of applause to Stefan.
24:53And thank you all again for joining us this morning.
24:55Thank you, Chris.
24:56Thank you, everyone.
24:57Thank you.
24:57Thank you.
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