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What Comes After ESG? Rethinking Responsibility, Results and Relevance
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00:00Générique
00:30Good morning, VivaTech. How are you today?
00:34More than that.
00:36Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
00:38So welcome, everyone.
00:40So I'm Mathieu Valich-Petit.
00:41I'm the head of client and markets and ESG lead for KPMG.
00:46And I'm very glad to be with you today to introduce our topic of the day around ESG with a
00:52burning question.
00:53What comes after ESG?
00:56Rethinking, responsibility, reason and relevance.
01:00It's a key question.
01:02So this morning, we will go under the real question of ESG trend in a real chaotic moment in terms
01:11of geopolitics, combined with a lot of uncertainties with economics.
01:16So it's a real challenge for us, given the polarization that we see, a very strong polarization that has been
01:24at the highest.
01:26If you imagine what happens in the US, what happens in Europe or in China, for instance.
01:32So according to our views, and we see as well a very strong gap between large corporate addressing ESG consideration
01:41compared to mid-sized companies and even startups.
01:44So we see a real gap.
01:46And according to a recent KPMG, a global survey, we see that, which is a good momentum, that two-thirds
01:52of companies are increasing their investment in ESG.
01:56But we can say, however, that today, this investment is really in a probably quite lower communication moment.
02:06So there is clearly a higher sensitivity in terms of communication, but truly, the corporate are acting in the right
02:15direction.
02:16So we can definitely ask a question, the first question, are we entering now in a kind of a reverse
02:22greenwashing environment?
02:24When we ask about the question around what's coming after ESG, is it really what's beyond compliance?
02:32And that's very much the kind of question that we will be happy to deal into.
02:39And for the next 30 minutes or so, we will explore, we are three key experts, how sustainability is transforming
02:46leadership, business values, and public expectations.
02:50So we will dig into the future of responsible business.
02:55What is the redefinition of ESG for our economies?
02:59Are we talking of a long-term setback or short-term slowdown?
03:03And because we are at VivaTech, what is the new responsible company business model in the context of acceleration of
03:11AI and technology?
03:14So to address this challenge, it's a lot.
03:17It's a lot.
03:18And to address these challenges, let me welcome our distinguished speakers.
03:23So I will start with you, Ruth.
03:26So Ruth Harper, chief marketing and sustainability officer at Manpower Group.
03:33Kat Berlangen, board member of the European Innovation Council and former chief impact officer in the tech sector.
03:41And Chris French, energy sector leader and biodiversity specialist at Naturometrics.
03:47So we'll try to keep some moments at the end of this session for probably a couple of questions.
03:55So be prepared to raise your burning questions.
03:59So let's start really through the first question.
04:02And we had a great discussion when we had the opportunity to prepare all together this session.
04:08And you were pretty much all aligned saying that we are in a very specific moment, a moment of resistance.
04:14And you even mentioned a backlash.
04:17So I would be keen to hear about you.
04:19And I will start with you, Kat.
04:22You are one of Europe's first CIO in the tech industry.
04:26What's your perspective on the ground today?
04:28What's going on?
04:32You know, it's funny.
04:33I wrote an article about, was it like almost three years ago now, on my first day as chief impact
04:39officer,
04:39on the inevitable rise of chief impact officers, right?
04:42And that was just three years ago.
04:45So, you know, you were talking about polarization.
04:46I think the truth is, like, it's not, like, totally new.
04:49It was just a little bit more subtle.
04:51And I think back then, the split was a little bit more, like, ESG as strategy and then ESG as
04:57performance.
04:58So, you know, you had, on one end of the spectrum, companies that were embedding it into their product design,
05:04into their revenue models, exec incentives, supply chains, and so on.
05:09And then on the other, you know, a little bit more superficially, like, planning trees for team building, token head
05:16of DEI,
05:17hires who had no real power, glossy reports, vague carbon statements.
05:25And so, you know, fast forward to today, and that polarization is still there, but it's just so much more
05:31intense.
05:32And it's so much more political.
05:34So we're, you know, right in the middle of a full-blown anti-woke cultural backlash in the U.S.
05:43So, you know, you're seeing, well, whether it's things like the DEI rollbacks of, you know, Meta, Amazon, Walmart, Target,
05:51or the blanket freeze of the IRA, or even the SEC rolling back on disclosures.
05:59And yet, you know, if you were to ask me what the polarization is really like today,
06:03and maybe I'm being a little naive or optimistic, I think it's not so much, like, pro or anti-ESG.
06:09I think there's consensus on the long-term value of that.
06:12I think the real polarization is on leadership.
06:15Like, who is going to step up and lead in a pushback era, and who is going to freeze up
06:22in an uncomfortable moment?
06:24Thank you so much.
06:25Rose, probably from a global and U.S. perspective, can you share your thoughts?
06:30I love the optimism.
06:32We're probably maybe boringly aligned with our optimism.
06:37Maybe we are turkeys not voting for Thanksgiving.
06:40I'm British, not American, by the way, but I am based in the U.S.
06:44I love that you've already introduced the phrase reverse greenwashing.
06:48Follow that one in terms of optimism.
06:53But I think we're definitely seeing a game of two halves.
06:56I'm a soccer football mother as well, so everything needs to come with a sports acronym.
07:01It's a game of two halves, and I think you've alluded to it very much already,
07:05in that we're seeing a very sustained approach to sustainability.
07:11And I'll talk about that a little bit later with a little bit of data and evidence as well.
07:16But we're seeing a sustained approach to sustainability from companies.
07:21What we're also seeing at the same time as that continued conviction is a much more subdued tone of voice.
07:28As people figure out what it is they want to say, who they want to say it to,
07:33and how woke or anti-woke they're going to be accused of in taking a stance.
07:41But I definitely see the optimism playing out much more.
07:44It feels a little bit like perhaps what's happening right now is that ESG is going into its incubator stage,
07:52while the hard work, the long-term work continues for us to emerge with a real demonstration of how we're
08:02creating more value,
08:03how we're driving more business resilience, and how we're really responding to what our customers want too.
08:11Chris, on your side, biodiversity, we see all the day, we have so many examples of climate change,
08:19and I would say climate crisis.
08:21What's your perspective given this very special moment?
08:26Yeah, thanks, Mathieu.
08:27I mean, obviously, planetary boundaries aren't going anywhere.
08:30We've got a climate and biodiversity crisis.
08:32whether or not we have the political will or the markets to actually deal with that right now.
08:38I think, as Ruth and Kat have said, resistance is more political than anything else.
08:45There is this conflation of ESG with ideology, I think,
08:49rather than actually understanding that a good ESG strategy is something that builds long-term growth,
08:54and it's something that adds significant value to businesses.
08:58Either side of the Atlantic, the attitudes are slightly different.
09:02Of course, here in the EU, we have driving factors like CSRD, TNFD adoption that are providing positive tailwinds,
09:10but there's a real fatigue, I think, in sustainability teams right now that have been working at this for years,
09:15looking at frameworks, thinking about strategies, and actually not really doing much on the ground.
09:20Sustainability teams are full of really passionate, motivated people, and they're almost a little bit stuck.
09:26We kind of know what works in a lot of cases, and we need to get on with it.
09:30On the US, there aren't those same regulatory drivers,
09:33but it's more a question, I think, of talent retention and of employee motivation.
09:38It turns out people don't really want to work for companies that are trashing the planet and not doing anything
09:43about it.
09:44So if you've got a good strategy that involves your teams, involves local communities,
09:48albeit sometimes tokenistic, as Ruth has said,
09:51it does actually help a lot for a company's internal morale.
09:54So I think, on your point, it's more of a short-term slowdown rather than a complete setback.
10:02We know climate and biodiversity crises aren't going anywhere.
10:06We need to have solid data to understand what's going on on our sites.
10:10It's, of course, what Nature Metrics does at the forefront of business and biodiversity.
10:14Once we have data and we understand things, those things then become manageable
10:19and I think allow us to focus on what really matters.
10:23So we clearly see geopolitical and economic uncertainties as a key driver,
10:28external driver for the integration of ESG within the corporate strategy.
10:33So probably a question for you, Ruth, about what kind of external factors are you facing?
10:39And probably if you can share some of what you're hearing from your clients, workers, candidates.
10:46Yeah, I'd love to.
10:47Because I don't think it is just political.
10:49It depends whether you mean political uppercase or lowercase.
10:53I think it's allowed people to kind of react and resist.
10:59But, you know, we're a 75-year-old company.
11:03We put 2 million people into work in 75 countries around the world.
11:09And I'm proud to say we're 68 years old here in France, actually,
11:13which is very unusual for a global organisation.
11:15And we're very proud of being so local here in France.
11:20So we talk with, you know, I also have the privilege of being the chief sustainability officer
11:25plus the chief marketing officer.
11:27So what we do, what we say, what we measure and what we demonstrate to all of our stakeholders
11:33is absolutely critical.
11:35But I'm right in the middle of being able to do a lot of that.
11:39We also have to do a lot of listening as a consumer organisation too.
11:42We're listening to our clients and we're listening to our candidates and associates,
11:47the 2 million people that we put into work.
11:50Last year, we tracked what our clients were asking us to report on.
11:54We audited everything that they were auditing us on or everything they wanted us to report on,
12:00what they wanted data on.
12:02And there was a heavy leaning, you'll be pleased to know, Chris,
12:05a very heavy leaning towards the environment part of the sustainability track.
12:10We've tracked the first quarter of 2025, and that's beginning to change.
12:16And there is no fall in the interest around environment.
12:19That continues to be a strong area of interest.
12:21What we're seeing is an increased focus on reporting, on data, and on eventually storytelling
12:29around what are we doing on the social impact part of ESG, much more than we've ever seen before.
12:36So this focus on human rights, this focus on just transition, is all increasing, actually,
12:43even if it's being done in the reporting and the investigation behind.
12:47And then just that's clients, so that's what organizations are looking for.
12:52What are people looking for?
12:54To your point, it is a real talent attraction in terms of being able to demonstrate the values of your
12:59organization.
13:00But we are far enough now into our sustainability journey that there is no tokenism left to happen.
13:06And I think people can smell tokenism like whatever is the best thing you want to smell.
13:13But I think, you know, we do annual research on what workers want every year.
13:19We have a talent barometer that we deliberately repeated at the end of the second quarter of this year
13:26to say how different is it to what we heard last year after everything that's happened at a European level,
13:33at a political level in many countries in Europe, and of course in the U.S.
13:38Do people feel different?
13:40They feel even more strongly about working for an organization that demonstrates its progress around purpose
13:48than they ever, ever have before.
13:51That's how people feel right now.
13:52And we really need to measure that kind of progress, and we'll have a question around that.
13:58Chris, next question for you around the responsible environmental leadership,
14:04specifically on certain high-impact industries and sectors like energy, mining, or even infrastructure.
14:11What's your perspective?
14:13Yeah, I mean, I think as a responsible leader, you need to keep your eyes open and your ears to
14:17the ground, right?
14:18So it's a very fast-moving space.
14:19There's a lot of tech solutions out there.
14:21There are many of them represented here today, but you need to adopt an iterative process.
14:26Through the whole sustainability journey at the moment, there's a lot of desk-based assessments going on,
14:30understanding what is high risk, what is low risk.
14:33But at some point, you actually need to go out into the field, into your sites,
14:37and see the living, breathing nature as it responds to your impacts.
14:42It's something, of course, we do.
14:45Responsible leaders adopt these new technologies.
14:46We work very closely with EDF.
14:49But for them, it's also strategic, because there are ways of adopting and incorporating nature tech that allow you to
14:55do more with less resources and get better data.
14:59I mean, for example, working with them on some of their wind farms, we're now using EDNA within regulatory permitting,
15:07which can sometimes take months and months and months to gather the required data.
15:11But using nature tech allows you to get it much more quickly and discover more species.
15:16I think, touching back on some of the things that you were saying there, Ruth,
15:19it's really heartening to see companies actually putting people with a scientific or ecological background in decision-making positions.
15:27They can then build the teams that they need around them to actually ensure that impact is meaningful and is
15:34measurable on the ground and integrated into their business plans.
15:38Chris, I would just say, because I think it's reinforcing what you're saying,
15:42the two most engaging social posts we've ever made as an organization that puts two million people into work
15:48is when we were validated by the first in our industry to be validated by the SBTI quite a few
15:54years ago now.
15:55Our people loved that. They loved what it stood for.
15:58The other one was a number of years ago when we said we are still in on the Paris Accord.
16:04We're a professional services company that put people into work, and that matters so much.
16:08That environmental aspect still matters so much, and it surprised us.
16:12Yeah, well, that's really heartening to see.
16:14I mean, it shows what the people want to have, what they hold dear to them, right?
16:17But also just thinking about, from a large infrastructure project point of view,
16:22having a better understanding of what's going on within your operations builds trust with regulators,
16:27it builds trust with communities, if you've got a credible science-backed approach,
16:32so that you're almost ensuring yourself against potentially much larger delays
16:37and costly reputational issues later on.
16:41Kat, I've got a burning question for you.
16:44How are startups engaged in 2SG or disengaged?
16:48And what's your perspective on each side of the Atlantic?
16:52And I would like also to have your perspective from investors and funders.
17:01It would be great.
17:02Yeah, sure.
17:03Let me just get a quick survey of the room.
17:06How many people here have founded or work at a startup currently?
17:12Okay, so just maybe for those of you who don't get a clearer idea of this,
17:18so think about it this way.
17:20Building a startup is like building a plane, but while you're flying it, right?
17:28And so I joined a chief impact officer at a series E company, and I remember what it was like.
17:34It was like acquiring a new company every six months, the team doubling in size every year,
17:41non-stop expansion into new markets.
17:44So it's easy to see how in that context, even in your most sort of like pro-ESG moments,
17:49how ESG and impact can sort of slip down the priority list.
17:53Now, on that, layer on top, you know, a down economy, a path to profitability pressure,
18:04which, you know, surprise is actually new from VCs, you know, add some of the political risk,
18:13as we were talking about, especially for American companies, which also happens to be a really big market.
18:21But, you know, and then also the business risk, because you're saying like, yeah, it's not just political,
18:25but I mean, for the many companies that are also doing business with the federal government, you know,
18:30like your DEI program could expose you to federal lawsuits or contract laws or fines.
18:37And so imagine you're a founder amidst all of this, you know, you're already scrambling before,
18:43and then now suddenly you're dealing with this and your board is telling you, focus, hit your targets,
18:51cut your burn, don't spook investors while you're in the middle of preparing your next round.
18:57You know, you, like, unless you're a founder who's just out for a quick exit,
19:01this is a, this is a major source of, of anxiety.
19:05So I think that's, that's actually where a lot of, a lot of founders,
19:08especially the early stage ones that took big bets into investing into something that seemed counterintuitive
19:14at the time for, from a business standpoint, that's kind of where a lot of them are at right now.
19:21We see today technology as a key enabler in terms of data accuracy,
19:26in terms of smart outcomes, and, and also to accelerate the ESG transformation.
19:31So probably the, the next question for you, Chris, around how technologies is really powering
19:40the, the risk and opportunity that we see in terms of the new economical model.
19:46Yeah, I mean, everyone's talking about AI, right? We're talking about AI, machine learning.
19:50We're integrating it into, into what we do. I think it's such an exciting time to work in the space.
19:55Of course, our bread and butter is, is collecting data from site.
19:58You know, we've got 3 million detections via eDNA across 10% of the world's surface,
20:04but it's not enough at this point. We can't be everywhere at once.
20:08But what we can do is integrate ground truth data with remote sensing, with AI camera traps, bioacoustics,
20:16to actually create these living digital twins, basically, of, of the natural world.
20:22And this allows us to test in a safe sandbox virtual environment, different ways of managing sites
20:29and understanding how do you prioritize that balance between development and, and preserving
20:36and connecting biodiversity at a landscape scale. And it can be done.
20:39We're doing it with, with some of our high impact clients like Anglo American on some of their sites in,
20:43in Brazil.
20:45And then also thinking about, well, how do we access these, these parts of the natural world that are,
20:51that are less monitored because they're difficult, right?
20:54Now, automated sampling is something that we've already started doing.
20:58If you ask people, what is the greatest migration on Earth?
21:02They will say, oh, you know, maybe, maybe the Serengeti, the wildebeest, et cetera, something like that.
21:07Actually, the largest migration that happens, happens every day in the marine environment
21:13where deep sea creatures come up to the surface to bask in the moonlight.
21:16I'm painting that slightly poetically, but you, you get the image.
21:19And by having automated samplers that are able to be there where people cannot,
21:24either because it's not safe or because really, I don't want to go swimming around looking for jellyfish at night,
21:29you can actually access loads more data that can help you really understand ecosystem function at a,
21:35at a profound level.
21:36So for us, this integration of new technology is about getting to the point where we can have models
21:41that really help us to, to test out theories and get to the point where we can do the same
21:46sort of
21:46attribution level modeling for biodiversity that we currently do for, for climate.
21:53Ruth, on your side, in your recent ESG report, one of the key themes was around the impact at scale.
22:01How does impact and storytelling support data collection from your perspective?
22:05Thank you.
22:05Yes.
22:06I think kind of the storytelling that we hear about the big migration is, is, is a great example.
22:13And, you know, just built, building off of the kind of the opportunity for AI to accelerate
22:18and for us to be able to tell more stories about how that acceleration can take place.
22:23There was some great discussions.
22:25It feels like about a week ago, but it was only yesterday on, on some of the main stages.
22:30And every CHRO, every CEO who is talking about AI is also hopefully talking about how on earth,
22:37at the pace of investment in AI that we're surrounded by today, how are we keeping up with that pace
22:45by upskilling the people that we need to keep in work and that we still need to bring into work
22:51as well.
22:52And there's a, there's a real conundrum and we've got some figuring out to do while we're in our incubator
22:58period,
22:58I think, refreshing ESG, but that, that ability to be able to demonstrate how is it that we're raising all
23:07boats
23:08as AI begins to raise its, its impact even faster is critical.
23:14And so a lot of the things that we're reporting on in our, in our ESG sustainability report,
23:21which we refer to as working to change the world in all that we do, environmental, positive action, climate action,
23:30social impact, as well as leadership and good governance.
23:34It is about the data, but it is also about how we demonstrate the impact,
23:39because I think that really does demonstrate progress, not just pledges,
23:45which I think is also where we'll see increasing amounts of backlash.
23:49So I think that demonstration is good, is good habit.
23:54It's good around authenticity, but increasingly, even though, you know, triple,
24:00even though as a result of the omnibus here in, in Europe,
24:05and the pushing out of triple D and CSRD, that is going to make us tell our stories,
24:10because that will not just be about clean data and clean data will be crucial.
24:15And that's the other thing that organizations are almost relieved about now,
24:19how we can ensure our data is most robust, so that the narrative for the regulatory environment,
24:25and you know this, because you're helping people figure their narrative out,
24:29the narrative and the storytelling and the evidence is going to be key too.
24:32Thank you so much.
24:33Kat, on your side, you advise the European Commission,
24:38and do you see in that kind of specific moment an opportunity for the emergence of responsible tax sovereignty?
24:50Yeah, 100%.
24:51And, you know, I would go as far to say, you know, where we're at geopolitically,
24:55I think it's more than an opportunity at this point.
24:58I would consider it a moral responsibility for Europe.
25:02Although I think, like, when you hear the words, like, LEED and Europe, you think of regulation.
25:09I don't think of regulation.
25:11I mean, you know, CSRD, the omnibus, SFDR, all that stuff, I mean, it matters.
25:16But it's not going to take us all the way there, right?
25:18If you're, like, talking, you just dropped, like, a really big phrase there,
25:22responsible tech sovereignty, which, you know, is essentially Europe's ability
25:29to take responsibility for its own future.
25:32I think that, you know, mostly that's going to happen through one thing,
25:37which is values-driven European tech startups actually becoming global market leaders.
25:43And so, yes, you know, you have this sort of ESG regulation or regulation general,
25:49just people think, you know, how Europe plays this game.
25:52But I think it's going to be on other things.
25:54I think it's going to be on a real 28th regime, on a deep, liquid, full-stack risk capital market.
26:02It's going to be on aggressively pro-startup public procurement.
26:07But anyway, I'll save that one for another panel.
26:09Okay, fantastic.
26:10So the last question, and it's really the perspective of the future.
26:14So looking ahead, 2030 leaders anticipate a significant challenge and opportunities as well.
26:20And we predict that KPMG, 80% of companies, will face increased scrutiny in their business model and practices.
26:28So a question for all of you.
26:30It's 2030.
26:33Regarding ESG, do you think what happened?
26:36And what will people say we got right or wrong?
26:41Floor is yours.
26:44It's 2030.
26:45What will people say we got right or wrong?
26:48I think they'll say we figured out what was woke and what was worth it.
26:52I think they'll realize how right we were to insist that ESG needs to be embedded in our business strategy.
27:02And I think they'll realize that the evidence-based outcomes will be the demonstration of true progress and value,
27:11not just pledges and PR.
27:15Yeah, I mean, I think we're all very optimistic here.
27:18I think the backlash would have died down by then.
27:21And, you know, since everyone's waving around AI here, I think sort of natural next step for ESG is to
27:29maybe add another E to the ESG on ethics.
27:31It may be specifically around AI ethics.
27:34And right now there's, strangely, not a lot of overlap between AI ethics and sort of traditional ESG.
27:41And so it's going to be a little bit more on, you know, taking accountability for bias, for safety, for
27:46trust, and so on.
27:48And then maybe also, like, one important thing that's going to happen in five years is, you know, Gen Z
27:56is just going to get a lot more power,
27:57whether it's in, you know, as consumers or in the workforce.
28:01And I think they're going to be a lot more unforgiving than previous generations when it comes to what we're
28:07doing with people on the planet.
28:09You scared me by saying 2030 is only five years away.
28:12I know.
28:13One and a half.
28:16Yeah, I mean, I think when we look back from 2030, we're going to think, why on earth didn't we
28:21just get on with it at the time?
28:22We've had this science-based evidence for a long time.
28:25But what I hope to see by 2030 is that fundamentally, above all else, that nature is thought of and
28:31treated as critical infrastructure, right,
28:34in the same way as your power grid or your water grid or your Internet.
28:37If it goes down, you fix it, right?
28:40And all of the services that are supported by it can continue to thrive.
28:45So, for me, it's putting nature at the center of the question and ensuring that it's measured and reported with
28:51the same value and urgency as carbon is today.
28:54Thank you so much.
28:55So, we still have a few minutes left for at least one or two questions.
29:08We're faster at taking questions than moving our microphones, aren't we?
29:20Is there a microphone coming?
29:23Or feel free to shout.
29:24Yeah, or feel free to say it.
29:25And we can just say it again on the microphone for everybody to hear.
29:29I think we'll hear you.
29:38There you go.
29:44You raise a good point about polarization, about people feeling polarized by the AI or ESG politics with merit-based
29:52hiring and environment.
29:53But I think an issue that's being ignored is that the hypocrisy of the situation as well.
29:58For example, with the environment, people get told to stop eating plastic and all.
30:02And that's really good.
30:02We shouldn't use plastic straws.
30:04And it's bad for the environment.
30:05However, corporations, according to a 2021 CDP report, they account for 70% of remission.
30:12Nothing is being done about that.
30:13And they aren't being held accountable.
30:15It's only the average person that gets told to make changes, which kind of really undermines the movement.
30:21And I don't, like, I didn't hear a single thing in the panel or about the ESG in general about
30:27how this may account in terms of ethics and public trust.
30:32Like, what are you, like, trying to do about that?
30:38I didn't quite get all of the question, but I think you're asking us about what are corporations doing about
30:43AI ethics that Kat just mentioned.
30:46But also, I missed the beginning part about emissions.
30:50They account for 70% of carbon emissions.
30:54Yet the focus on ESG is on the average person to not use plastic bottles, for example.
31:00But they are the ones who have already produced it.
31:02And when you produce it, it's already going to be a waste, no matter what.
31:06So what's their plan to hold the big ones accountable?
31:12That could be a half-hour discussion.
31:14Perhaps next year you could contribute to the title of the session.
31:19I'll give a very quick answer on behalf of Manpower Group and actually our ecosystem of partners, clients, vendors, which
31:29I'm sure,
31:30and I won't speak for KPMG, but I think from a corporate organisation,
31:33we are held to account by the people we do business with and the people we do business for.
31:39And I think what we've seen much more, even in the last two or three years,
31:43and maybe we'll see more by 2029, 2030, 2031,
31:47there is no hiding your emissions from whoever you do business with.
31:51There is an expectation that I report my emissions to Amazon, to KPMG if I'm doing business.
32:02It's difficult, but there is much more focus about scope three and being able to answer to how are we
32:08controlling those emissions as a whole.
32:12I'm with you, it's not just about plastic bottles.
32:16That does actually matter to individuals.
32:19Bamboo plates in cafeterias too, but it's not going to save the planet.
32:23But that's why reporting and clean data is really important,
32:29so that we can begin to decide who we do business with based on those emissions.
32:34And from an AI ethical perspective,
32:36we were one of the first in our industry to create an AI ethical board,
32:41and it sits within the G of our ESG, actually.
32:45And that helps guide decisions we make on innovation and on AI and on tools,
32:51as well as who we do business with too.
32:53It is there, I think you can feel reassured by that,
32:56because that, I agree, is how we'll move at scale.
33:00I mean, I think, well, so, you know, France, and I'm sort of speak for what I know, right?
33:07France is like, if we look at tech, it's predominantly B2B, it's predominantly SaaS.
33:11So, yes, like, plastic straws are not going to make a big change
33:15if you're looking at, like, let's say, French tech's contribution to global emissions.
33:19But actually, like, you know, if you look at their emissions,
33:23it comes mostly from things like servers, sustainable web design, and things like that.
33:29And you know where that sucks?
33:30That sucks because there are no standards around it.
33:32So, you know, when I think about, like, the work that Chris is doing on biodiversity
33:37and how important it is to be able to measure what matters,
33:40we're not actually as far ahead as we should be when it comes to measuring things like this.
33:46Like, if you look at some of the discussions that sometimes happen behind closed doors
33:49on, you know, needing to sort of cut carbon emissions,
33:52people are just like, maybe we should move our servers to another country, you know?
33:57And it's sort of, that's how it ends.
33:59So I think we need, at least, again, speaking for sort of French and European tech,
34:04we need a lot more maturity on the things that matter when it comes to standards
34:08because otherwise I don't think there are any natural incentives
34:11that are going to come beyond the sort of greenwashing.
34:13So, big thank you.
34:15I think that we need to close our fantastic session.
34:19The numbers are red.
34:19That's not good, is it?
34:20It's really, really red.
34:22And thank you so much.
34:23It was really a moment of probably ESG 2.0.
34:27I'm very, very pleased.
34:29And I do really thank you for your participation.
34:33Thank you all.
34:34Can't wait to be in 2030.
34:37Thank you.
34:37Thanks, everyone.
34:38Thank you, everyone.
34:46Thank you.
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