- il y a 5 semaines
AI, Media and the Peril of Democracies
Catégorie
🤖
TechnologieTranscription
00:00Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
00:32Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
01:00Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
01:03Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
01:04Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
01:07Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
01:11Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
01:14Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
02:19Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
02:23Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
02:25Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
02:33Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
02:35Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
02:52Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
02:55Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
03:33Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
03:34Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
03:43Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
04:17Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
04:20Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
04:22Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
04:50Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
04:52Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
04:57Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
05:00Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
05:22Non, non, non, non, non.
05:24It's a fact.
05:26Non, my friend.
05:28And if I'm not wrong,
05:31Germany
05:33is very much
05:34relying on trade with China.
05:37And if I'm not wrong,
05:39part of the issue
05:40that we have with Germany
05:42today is it's
05:44too high reliance
05:46to the Chinese market.
05:48No, you're absolutely right, and Maurice, that's why I said
05:50half-jokingly, it's an insult.
05:52parce que je pense que Germany est, dans ce contexte, le rôle-modeur.
05:57Quand Angela Merkel a pris office, nous avons pris 33% de notre gas de la France.
06:03Quand elle a pris office, nous avons pris 65% de la France.
06:07C'est la dépendance.
06:08Nous sommes maintenant totalement dépendants de notre car industrie de la France.
06:12C'est la même chose de la façon dont vous ne devriez pas.
06:15Parce que vous créez dépendance, et vous risquez l'enderminage de notre modèle open society.
06:25Thierry, vous êtes un entrepreneur, vous avez été l'un des leaders de l'Assemblée du ministre de l'Etat,
06:33du ministre de l'Etat, de l'Etat.
06:34Qu'est-ce que vous pensez sur le fait que la Chine et la Russie sont déstabilisant le pays occidentaux,
06:46et que vous pensez aussi qu'il y a trop de dépendance sur ces pays ?
06:51Je pense que ce que Mathias a dit dans sa analyse est absolument correcte, absolument vrai.
06:59Mathias, vous êtes correcte, nous n'avons pas de démocratie sur le planète pour partager ses valeurs.
07:09Je peux vous dire un peu ce que vous avez dit.
07:12Nous, en Europe, nous sommes la plus grande démocratie du monde du monde.
07:16Ce n'est pas les États-Unis.
07:17Je pense que souvent, nous disons que c'est les États-Unis, ce n'est pas vrai.
07:21Nous sommes 450 millions d'habitants, et nous vivons avec les règles de la loi.
07:27Nous sommes une grande démocratie dans l'Europe.
07:31Avec, par le fait, les mêmes systèmes démocratiques que nous avons aussi dans les États-Unis.
07:39Notre Chambre est le Parlement européen, et notre Senate est le Conseil.
07:45Ce sont les co-legislateurs avec exactement les mêmes corps démocratiques.
07:49Nous sommes 150 millions.
07:51Les États-Unis, 130 millions.
07:53Tous ensemble, 800 millions.
07:57On a planète de 9 millions d'habitants.
07:59Nous représentons, Mathias, 10% de la population.
08:03Et c'est vrai que nous avons probablement été trop naïfs.
08:07Et c'est vrai que maintenant, nous réalisons, finalement,
08:14que les continents autour de nous ne sont pas les amis.
08:18Donc c'est un appel de réveil.
08:20Et c'est exactement ce que nous avons fait dans toutes nos politiques,
08:24pour commencer à dériscer nos dépendances.
08:28Parce que nous avons appris,
08:28surtout pendant les dernières années,
08:31avec toutes les crises,
08:33vous avez mentionné certaines d'entre eux,
08:34including la guerre en Ukraine.
08:35Nous avons réalisé,
08:36que les gens qui ont des relations avec nous
08:41sont utilisés les dépendances comme weapons.
08:45Et c'est pourquoi, oui,
08:47nous devons travailler très bien ensemble,
08:50pour avoir les mêmes règles,
08:53les mêmes frais entre nous,
08:56les mêmes régulations digitales.
08:59Parce qu'à la fin du jour,
09:01il serait fantastique
09:03d'avoir un marché digital global,
09:06pas seulement aux États-Unis,
09:07pas seulement aux États-Unis,
09:08mais aux États-Unis plus aux États-Unis.
09:09Et c'est ce que nous avons décidé de faire en Europe.
09:12Nous avons décidé de prendre notre propre destinée
09:15et de mettre des règles basiques
09:17pour organiser notre marché digitale
09:21informatique.
09:23C'est beaucoup plus difficile
09:24de faire ça dans les États-Unis,
09:26parce que c'est fair de dire aussi
09:28que les États-Unis,
09:30a un système démocratique,
09:32qui est un peu chéky,
09:38sick,
09:39weak,
09:40weak,
09:41but at least,
09:42but at least,
09:44but at least,
09:46unfortunately,
09:47at least,
09:47it is extremely difficult,
09:49now,
09:50to pass a bill in the US.
09:51So that's why,
09:52we,
09:53as the biggest democracy of the free world,
09:55have a duty also,
09:57of course,
09:58we are not here to evangelize,
09:59but to try to do what we believe is good for our people,
10:02for our fellow citizens,
10:03for our companies.
10:04And yes,
10:05if we can help others to do it,
10:06we will do it.
10:07Look at what we did with the platforms.
10:08Now they follow our rules.
10:10They have to invest to follow our rules,
10:12to keep, again,
10:14the values that are in the physical world,
10:17in the digital world.
10:19They invest.
10:20If they do it in Europe,
10:22why don't we do it in the US?
10:25Mathias,
10:25I would like that,
10:28as we are speaking about democracies
10:30and the weak link that we have,
10:36I would like that we go back to AI,
10:39where there is a serious risk for the democracies,
10:42but before going to democracy,
10:45I would like to see,
10:46as a publisher,
10:48how do you see AI?
10:50We have heard before Harlan Cobben
10:54speaking about the risk of AI
10:59and the fact that, obviously,
11:02AI could be a danger,
11:04but also an enabler.
11:06How, as a publisher,
11:09do you see AI?
11:10So, Maurice, these things are absolutely linked,
11:14because AI is the most important tool
11:18in the global power battle
11:21and system battle.
11:23Who is dominating AI
11:25is going to dominate the world.
11:27And the big question is,
11:28is AI going to be a weapon
11:32in the hands of non-democratic players
11:34and evil forces,
11:35or is it a tool that we can use
11:38based on rules in order to empower mankind?
11:42And that leads also, I mean,
11:43AI is clearly a potentially existential risk
11:47for democracy and for the model of our lifestyle
11:53and society.
11:54And at the same time,
11:55it is probably the biggest opportunity
11:57to bring mankind to a new level of intelligence,
12:00creativity, success.
12:02And that is also, in a way,
12:04the perspective of our company.
12:05We think that the opportunity is bigger.
12:07That's why we embrace AI
12:09and have a lot of things that we are doing
12:11with the help of AI much better than before.
12:14I can concretize that if you want.
12:16But in the end,
12:17we also should be realistic about the dangers.
12:20And that's why I truly think
12:22we need a legal framework
12:25that creates a level playing field
12:27and that ensures also the protection
12:30of intellectual property.
12:31For me, the two most important factors
12:33in order to make sure that AI is not a threat
12:35but an opportunity is to, on the one hand,
12:38make sure that we have a protection
12:40of intellectual property.
12:42If that's not the case,
12:43then science is bust,
12:44all creative industries are bust,
12:46and democracy is bust.
12:47And the second condition is
12:48that we have enough competition.
12:50If too much power is into too few hands,
12:53that's a monster.
12:54It's super dangerous.
12:55If there is competition,
12:56it's going to be wonderful.
12:57That's wonderful
12:59because you know that you are sharing
13:01exactly the same view
13:03that Elon Musk and Yoshua Bengio.
13:06Exactly the same.
13:08They are considering that AI
13:10is a fantastic enabler
13:12but also a huge risk for democracy.
13:17Thierry, you are the one
13:21who has decided to very early on
13:25have rules on AI.
13:29People, there are some people who love regulation,
13:34some people who love it less,
13:37and some people who consider that we should invest
13:41much more on innovation rather on regulation.
13:45I think that you have done a fantastic job
13:50in setting the rules and giving us a framework
13:55on which we can work.
13:57But maybe it would be useful for everyone
13:59to understand how this happened
14:02and what is the meaning and the role of that regulation.
14:11First of all, I totally agree with what Matthias just said
14:15regarding internal property and to decide who owns the data
14:19and who owns what.
14:20And we have to be very careful with that.
14:24Maurice, of course, we are all speaking about AI.
14:28But we spoke about AI since the past 30 years.
14:3470 years, we started in the early 50s.
14:38It's not.
14:38I mean, of course, what is making AI now so important
14:43and so appealing is that in between,
14:45we have created huge, huge amount of data.
14:51and why is AI so important today?
14:54Just because between the past 20 years,
14:5820 years, we have created data and data and data.
15:02And so the beauty with the digital evolution
15:07slash revolution is that everything we do,
15:10everything we do is kept.
15:13It's not like when you walk on the sand.
15:16The sea is coming and then after 10 minutes,
15:20no more trace on the beach.
15:23When we do something in the digital space,
15:26it's here forever.
15:28And this is because we have stored all these informations
15:32and the information, of course, is knowledge.
15:35Because we have all the computing capacity now,
15:39computing power, which will increase and increase and increase
15:42below the low moon, thanks to the quantum computing coming soon.
15:47because we have all these and now the talents,
15:51that AI is becoming part of our life.
15:55So it's very important for us as politicians,
15:58and this is not opposing regulations and innovation.
16:04It's not all, Maurice, it's and.
16:07In order to allow innovations in all this framework,
16:12we just need to have some basic rules.
16:16Do we drive on the right side of the road or the left side?
16:20We need to decide and then it will boost innovations.
16:25Can we do this? Can we use AI for social scoring?
16:31We said no. In China you can.
16:34Not in Europe because it's not based on our values.
16:37And we worked over the past five years with all the ecosystems,
16:42academic, states, companies, startups, to start to see how to,
16:48let's say, frame a risk based regulation.
16:53Just risk based.
16:54What should be forbidden?
16:56Because it doesn't match with our values.
16:58What, where should we should be a little bit careful?
17:01Like for in health.
17:03How could we use data for mobility?
17:08Is there something that we need to be a little bit more careful than others?
17:12What is totally free?
17:14So we just put some basic guidelines so that now when you come in Europe
17:20and finally, by the way, it has been voted by our democratic process.
17:24We propose this.
17:26It has been discussed heavily in our parliament.
17:29And believe me, they did a fantastic job.
17:32It has been discussed heavily in our European Senate, the council.
17:35and finally, after five years, we add a text which will, which is now enforceable.
17:44It has been, by the way, voted yesterday, which is just, again, a risk based,
17:48so that when you come in Europe, when you invest in Europe,
17:52by the way, there's no regulation at all for investment and innovation,
17:55but at least you will know that the product that you will offer,
17:59you will be, you could do it without being afraid of the class actions.
18:05You will know because, yes, watermarking will be essential,
18:10understanding what kind of data will be essential,
18:12protecting the right will be essential.
18:14We just put some basic rules.
18:16So invest in Europe, come and develop in Europe,
18:19and then, of course, you will be secured because we have some basic guidelines.
18:25Mathias.
18:25I just would like to second in a way, Thierry,
18:28because you said regulation instead of innovation.
18:31First of all, I agree it is both, and in a way good regulation can help to foster innovation,
18:36but I also find it interesting.
18:37I just saw this morning a quote by the head of the Competition Authority in the United States, Lina Khan,
18:45and she said,
18:45that the European Union has been at the forefront of regulating digital markets with initiatives like the GDPR and the
18:52Digital Markets Act,
18:53providing critical framework for data protection and competition.
18:58This illustrates that in that case, perhaps for the first time, the EU is leading that.
19:04And in Washington, people are looking to Europe and saying,
19:08oh, maybe we were a little naive at the beginning of the last 20 years.
19:11We have perhaps to follow the European direction.
19:14I think that's quite remarkable.
19:15Mathias, I want to give you on this maybe an anecdote.
19:18Again, we are very humble, and we have to be very humble,
19:22because, of course, since I'm moving.
19:25And again, we are not here to tell others what they have to do.
19:29Our job as politicians is just to put some basic rules.
19:34We do this in the physical world, in our streets, in our companies.
19:39We need to do this also in the digital world.
19:42Basic rules.
19:43That's the job of politicians.
19:45But we have to be very careful while doing this, especially when it's based on technology.
19:49So, yes, we put the DSA in place, as you know, to make sure that in the platforms, in the
19:56social networks,
19:56we have some basic rules now, obliging, let's say, the platforms, I mean, to follow what we do in the
20:04physical world.
20:04We, thanks to the DMA, have now some regulations to say, hey, we need fair competition.
20:11That's extremely important.
20:12So, we have fair competition rules in the physical world.
20:16We need to have also in the digital one.
20:19To tell you the truth, Mathias, when we started this,
20:21and everyone says this and they know, I had never to deal with so many lobbies.
20:28You cannot imagine.
20:29Because everyone said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
20:32Including, by the way, including, by the way, our U.S. friends.
20:37And, okay, we did it because we thought it was in the interest of our people and our companies.
20:43Four months ago, I had the visit of the number two of the State Department in my office.
20:50I will not tell you the name.
20:51And she tell me, Thierry, Mr. Commissioner, at the end of the day, in the name of the United States
21:00of America,
21:01I came to tell you thank you.
21:02I said, why? Why?
21:05Thank you for, finally, you have done, to put now some regulation to protect our children
21:11for what you have done for the DS and the DMA.
21:13I said, why?
21:15Thank you for telling this because you didn't help me.
21:18Yes, but we were wrong.
21:20I just say this anecdote, not because, again, we have to be proud of whatever,
21:25just because, yes, we did it, but, again, it's extremely important that we align ourselves now
21:32because, if I have a dream, that we will have the same rules because, at the end of the day,
21:38we share the same values in the U.S. and in Europe, and it will be fantastic.
21:43I would like to come back to what Matthias has started to discuss at the beginning,
21:49which is the fact that if some countries, and particularly referring to China,
21:59is dominating the world with AI, we will be in a very difficult situation.
22:06So, I would like now to move on something which would be a little bit more constructive,
22:14which is, as we have now the basic rules, what can be done and what should we be doing
22:23in order to catch up with the U.S. and China in terms of invention, innovation,
22:30creation of dedicated startups, in fact, being one of the key players in the field of AI.
22:40And today, it is fair to say that Europe is lagging behind.
22:45The AI is dominated by the giant in the U.S. and China.
22:52So, what should we be doing?
22:54So, first of all, we have to establish really the principle of reciprocity and symmetry.
23:01The WTO as it is today is absolutely not living up to that standard.
23:07China is still considered to be a developing country.
23:10That's a joke for the second biggest economy in the world
23:13and enjoys with that a lot of privileges and exemptions
23:16so they don't have to comply to standards than other partners have to.
23:20So, that has to be changed immediately.
23:22That's precondition number one.
23:23Second, you cannot dictate creativity and innovation by orders from top down.
23:29You have to create a culture where innovation happens because people take risks.
23:35And that is perhaps our biggest disadvantage in Europe that the risk culture is here and there underdeveloped.
23:42Thirdly, you need money.
23:43And if you look to the allocation of investments, then that is so disproportionate that we need more courageous investments
23:51to fund new innovative forward-looking ideas and technologies that will shape Europe's future.
23:58And that comes, that would be condition number four, with less bureaucracy.
24:02We need good, smart, lean regulation, but we definitely need less bureaucracy and we need faster decision processes based on
24:09a higher risk takers culture.
24:11Your reaction, Thierry?
24:13I agree with the four conditions or prerequisites that Matthias just mentioned.
24:19From my side, I would like to emphasize the first thing that you said, Matthias.
24:24We have now finally a global single digital market in Europe.
24:31Finally, we have the same organization rules for everyone.
24:37We have only one regulator now.
24:40You can decide where you want.
24:42It's finished.
24:43Before, we had 27 rules, 27 regulators and no digital market.
24:50We were too fragmented.
24:51It's not the case anymore for digital.
24:53So it's a fantastic opportunity because you come in Europe.
24:56Now we have finally access to 450 million times two ice balls.
25:02Second point, we don't have yet a capital union market.
25:07We are fragmented in our capital union.
25:09And this is why it's so difficult to find, to have access to money for the startups, for the SMEs,
25:19for innovations.
25:20Just because we don't invest in Europe.
25:24If we want to invest, every year, 300 billion euros are leaving Europe to go to invest in the U
25:30.S.
25:31Because it's much more relevant.
25:33And then with this money, the U.S. is coming to buy our startup in Europe.
25:36So we need to have a capital union market to answer to your prerequisites, which is mandatory.
25:44And by the way, it will be a big, big objective for the next commission in the next five years.
25:50That's absolutely mandatory.
25:51Third thing, we need to have computing power.
25:55And we know that computing power is extremely important to have access, again, to the data and to train your
26:02models.
26:03And this is why in the EU, we have been the first one to put, and this is something that
26:08I put as soon as I arrive, a network of supercomputers.
26:11We call it EuroHPC, with exascale computers.
26:17I was leading a meeting with a research minister yesterday from Europe.
26:22Now, five countries have decided to have exascale computing, between the three biggest in the world, in Europe, interlinked and
26:33will be offered from free to the startups who would like to come.
26:38Half is paid by member states, half is paid by the European Commission.
26:42You come in Europe, you have access to free computing power.
26:46And that's extremely important.
26:48And the last thing, of course, is to have access to data.
26:52The data are here, but who owns the data?
26:55And this is why we have put the Data Act in place when you're generating petaflop of data on a
27:03driving car.
27:04Who owns the data? The driver? The car manufacturer? The insurance company? That's clear.
27:10We have set the rules.
27:12So you come in Europe, you have access to the data, you have the computing power, you have the talent.
27:18We miss the money. That's our objective for the next mandate.
27:21I would like that you react on one point, which I believe is extremely strong, which is the level playing
27:29field and the fact that the WTO rules do not apply anymore to the second most powerful nation in the
27:41world.
27:42So we have rules which were maybe good 20 years ago because China was a developing country.
27:52We know that they are not abiding and they don't feel bound by those rules.
27:58And should we renegotiate the WTO agreement?
28:02A hundred percent. It sounds like music to my ear, Mathias.
28:06Because in the Commission, I was the one pushing this. But believe me, I was alone.
28:12And you know why I was alone? Because our philosophy, when I joined the Commission five years ago, Mathias, was,
28:19no, no, no, no.
28:19We are an open continent. We are open. I said, yes, but we need reciprocity. Yes, but we need to
28:29have some conditions open. Yes, but at our condition.
28:33It's a joke. I mean, it's a joke that we cannot operate with our platforms and companies in China.
28:40Absolutely.
28:41But China can operate with TikTok in all our democracies and creating a lot of harm.
28:46I think it is, in any case, a good move that we have now this decision that TikTok has been
28:54sold to a non-Chinese owner if it wants to continue to do business in democracies.
28:59I think that's a groundbreaking symbol and a very important signal because what we have done in the past is
29:06honestly completely self-damaging.
29:09And I don't get that point. I mean, there are many reasons why Europe could strive.
29:14Europe has, in contrast to this very monolithic and authoritarian system in China and in contrast to a more and
29:24more kind of stumbling system in the United States
29:28where two very special candidates are competing for presidency, Europe has a lot of advantages.
29:34We have intellectual property, we have competition, we have sustainability, we have social stability, we have a very freedom-oriented
29:43lifestyle.
29:43So young people, young ambitious people should find Europe very attractive.
29:48But I think we can only succeed if we as a first principle establish that symmetry that provides us with
29:56fair chances.
29:57Otherwise people will say I see better opportunities in the US or in China or elsewhere.
30:00You have won Thierry on your side and we will support you because I think you are right.
30:09Of course Matthias is 100% right and in order to do this Matthias, and it's my daily fight, in
30:16order to do this we need to realize something in Europe.
30:21We are a power. Because at the end of the day, when we speak about reciprocity, it means that we
30:28understand the balance of power.
30:31And when we say balance of power, it means that we need to understand what we are.
30:35This is why I'm telling with being humble, just a fact, we are the first market in the world.
30:42We are the first, biggest or the biggest democracy of the free world.
30:46So of course, when we are discussing with our partner, our competitors, our systemic rivals, we need to put in
30:55balance something.
30:56And what is the something that we put in balance? The entire market.
31:00Let me show you, give you a very quick example.
31:03I have been in charge of the vaccine, you remember this very well Matthias, to enhance drastically our capacity to
31:09produce vaccines during the COVID-19.
31:11And one day, I realized that a lot of our factories in the US were blocked by European factories, making
31:19lipids from mRNA vaccines.
31:21But because the US decided, it was Biden by the way, to have a decision to say, I will ban
31:30any export from anything until we get herd immunity, our factories were blocked.
31:36Then I said to my counterpart, look, it's my factory, yes, but I have an executive order.
31:43I came back to the commission, I said, we need not to have a law saying, if we don't have
31:46reciprocity, we will do the same.
31:48The law was passed. My following weeks, when I had my interactions with Jeff Zients, he was the US chief
31:54vaccines,
31:55he's now the head of the cabinet of President Biden, he's a good friend.
31:57I said, Jeff, you have some drug capacities in Europe, we block it.
32:03He said, Thierry, it's blackmail. He said, yes, we open the supply chain and we reopen it.
32:08And we did it, and now we are the best friend.
32:11But Thierry, we also then have to make sure that we really excel with regard to the most decisive question
32:19of the future,
32:20and that is that we come up with enough innovation and enough companies and products that shape the future of
32:28artificial intelligence.
32:29If we basically leave that to other countries because we are kind of suffocating from our own bureaucracy, then we
32:38are in trouble.
32:39And I think that is really the pivotal moment. Yes, it can be a European era, but only if we
32:46get the AI thing right.
32:47And at the moment there is not enough examples. We have to be self-criminal and realistic.
32:54I fully agree and less bureaucracy. You are absolutely right. We have to clean the bureaucracy.
32:59I would like to remind that France has been able to, with the French tech, to change the landscape.
33:06And we have now something which is very vivid, very lively, and working extremely well.
33:15Thierry is too modest, but if this happened, it's because when he was the Minister of Economy, he has asked
33:27for a report on the intangible economy.
33:31And if, by the way, VivaTech exists, it was one of the recommendations of this report, and it has been
33:42the basic for the future landscape of...
33:47And Maurice was the author.
33:50No, but that's a co-author.
33:52Co-author, but that's true.
33:53But the force behind was you.
33:56Matthias, if you had to give one very strong recommendation to your friend Ursula, to your friend Olaf, to your
34:10European colleagues,
34:12what would it be in order that Europe can be this real strength and force that Thierry is depicting?
34:25Well, that's not something that any politician basically can do.
34:31So, my advice would be trust the individual and trust the individual-free decisions and limit intervention and limit bureaucracy
34:43in order to empower really creative, bold ideas in Europe.
34:49I think that should be the new promise of Europe, to be the place for young people where they can
34:55execute and test their ideas with the most significant tailwind and not with bureaucratic headwind.
35:04That would be, for me, the most simplistic way to put it.
35:07We have one of the most prominent politicians in Europe. Thierry, are you buying this?
35:12Of course, and just for AI, we have decided in our regulation to be totally free on the burden and
35:19regulation for all innovators in sandboxes.
35:22So, you come here, no rules, no regulation, you can develop everything you do you want.
35:28Of course, respecting areas where we don't want you to invest or spend some time, like social scoring, for example.
35:35But my dream for me is to have the capital market and to be able to support the innovators the
35:43way they need to be supported financially.
35:46And this is yet a weakness of Europe that we need urgently to correct.
35:49So, Europe is a new land of opportunity for entrepreneurs, for the future and for building a competitive, one of
36:00the most competitive AI industry in the world.
36:04Thank you, and a rose of applause to my friends, Matthias and Thierry. Thank you.
36:15And we have not followed at all my notes.
Commentaires