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New Automobiles Do Electric Vehicles Make Sense for Everyone
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00:00Bonjour, tout le monde, merci pour venir, pour ce qui est une très intéressante session aujourd'hui à VivaTech.
00:08J'espère que vous avez un bon temps à VivaTech aujourd'hui.
00:11C'est une très manique conférence.
00:15Mais oui, j'ai dit que je suis venu à Anna Taiso de Verkul.
00:20Hello.
00:21Anna, bienvenue à vous.
00:23Merci pour venir.
00:24We were going to have a couple of other panellists join us, Nicolas Welberg from Volvo Group
00:31and Mehmet from TOG.
00:33Unfortunately, they couldn't make it due to personal circumstances,
00:38but we wish them the absolute best and obviously very appreciative that Anna
00:44is still here to chat about some interesting things.
00:47We're going to be talking about the state of electrification in Europe and beyond.
00:53and more specifically about, you know, how do electric cars become more affordable over time.
01:00Just before I get into that though, I'd love to just ask you about Verkul.
01:05You know, really interesting company in the EV space from a battery perspective.
01:10You know, you're making the batteries that go into these cars.
01:14And can you just talk to us a bit more about Verkul, what it is the company does
01:17and how you're uniquely positioned in the market?
01:21Sure, sure.
01:23Happy to do so and hello everyone.
01:26So Verkul is an industrial company whose goal is to manufacture batteries in Europe.
01:32The first tranche is to produce 16 gigawatt hour per year capacity.
01:39It is based in Dunkirk.
01:42The company itself is based in Grenoble.
01:45And so to do so and to transform this into reality,
01:50we needed essentially three important steps.
01:53One was to start with a very competent and international team bringing it together in Grenoble.
02:01Most of the people that work for us are based in Grenoble city.
02:07The second point after these skills are united was to sign with a customer.
02:14And there's a lot of gigafactories in Europe out there that struggle with this initial step.
02:22This is absolutely a necessary one and turns things into reality.
02:28So we had the chance to sign a very large contract with Renault
02:32that accounts to 75% of our production capacity.
02:36And with this, we could do the third step, which represents the financing of this immense industrial project.
02:46Because at stake, of course, there are over billions and it's obviously a fundamental part of the story.
02:54Yeah.
02:55Talk to us a bit more about the Renault partnership, what that entails.
02:59You know, obviously a big, significant partner to the Verkul operation.
03:05How has that gone so far?
03:07How have you been sort of perhaps surprised by it?
03:10You know, I mean, obviously you're still working towards kind of like full production of, you know, those batteries.
03:17How have things gone so far and where do you sort of see that partnership going in the future?
03:21Sure, sure.
03:23It has obviously been a key moment in the story of Verkul and a key partner for us.
03:30I'd say that more and more of the overall performance and we will talk about the price of the car
03:38comes from the battery.
03:40So, understanding the options and mastering the battery technology has become a very important condition for OEMs.
03:51So, you see these relationships come out of a typical supplier and customer relationship and to go into a more
04:01intimate exchange partnership learning and more and more so.
04:10So, definitely Renault has taken this role, is very involved in our development.
04:17This said, our development is fully Verkul and our IP is fully owned, which is also a point of pride
04:26for us.
04:27Certainly.
04:28And made in Europe as well.
04:30Obviously.
04:32Which is great to see because I think some of the points we're going to talk about, you know, kind
04:37of pertain to where the current supply chain is when it comes to EVs.
04:41And, you know, currently a lot of the supply is reliant on China and, you know, in terms of the
04:48minerals that are required to go into the battery tech.
04:51Yes, yes.
04:53How has it been sourcing, you know, an EV battery company in Europe?
04:58I mean, how has that manufacturing process actually been for Verkul?
05:02So, sourcing obviously is key.
05:06What we have seen already is the challenge of sourcing equipment to start and jumpstart the Gigafactory.
05:15So, I think we have made very smart choices.
05:21There's not much of a European supply chain in the equipment.
05:26However, there are better suppliers than others and it's one of the key important impacting choice.
05:34In terms of materials, it is also, I would say, a global supply chain and a very complex one.
05:44Yeah.
05:46It is very common to have agreements securing the initial raw material.
05:53This is the best way to get the best price and, at the same time, the best traceability.
05:58Have a control across where this material comes from.
06:03And often, these initial parts of securing capacity are done hand in hand with OEMs.
06:13But all this has to kind of pile up across your complex and very long supply chain into your sourcing.
06:22So, this is, yeah, I would say a complicated contractual framework, but it's being done and it's behind us.
06:35I suppose an exciting one.
06:36It always brings up new challenges.
06:38Of course, of course.
06:41So, the subject of the talk is, you know, how do we make electric cars more affordable?
06:47And you're obviously working with Renault, you know, a very massive car maker and obviously here in France as well.
06:57But I see a lot of EVs around the show floor and they're very impressive, you know, luxury brands.
07:03You know, Tesla has a, I don't know if you've seen the Cybertruck upstairs as well.
07:08But I think the common theme among all of those is they're pretty expensive, actually making those EVs more affordable.
07:16How do we actually get to that stage where, you know, it is more affordable and the customer is more
07:22willing to fork out for those EVs?
07:25Yes, of course, the access price is a key feature.
07:32But let me step back a moment and I do think that the EVs need to be seen globally in
07:42terms of TCO, in terms of total cost of ownership.
07:46In the end, EVs are advantageous in terms of total cost of ownership.
07:53There's a lot of exciting technology and we're here in VivaTech to see it that can help these kind of
08:02models enhancing the TCO.
08:05It's a little bit like buying an expensive water bottle that's fancy and an initial investment.
08:15But this is great to avoid buying many, many plastic, high price and polluting plastic bottles down the road.
08:25So it's anything enhancing the intense usage, car sharing models, anything promoting the 24-7, like commercial applications,
08:38everything in the handling the higher initial price with leasing.
08:47Our partner Renault had a battery leasing approach for the early adopters to avoid spending too much money at access.
08:57And the leasing scheme is more and more diffused among customers.
09:01So this obviously is a great way to move forward.
09:06Certification method to enhance the value at resale.
09:11All this is, I would say, new technology that fuels and goes into an EV model that makes it profitable,
09:21that makes sense.
09:23So just to say that it's not only the initial price, a lot of focus is on that, but in
09:30the big picture, I think there's completely an interest in terms of TCO.
09:36And I'm not dodging your question, so let me get to the price.
09:40Yes, of course, EV prices a lot depend on the battery and not on the e-motor, for example, as
09:49much as simply simplified and cheaper than the internal combustion engine, for example.
09:57But battery is more expensive.
09:59And how does this decline in...
10:05There's obviously a part that is linked on materials.
10:09And then we talked a little bit about the supply chain, but these have a certain volatility, especially in the
10:15initial stage where the industry starts.
10:19And there are some fluctuations between demand supply, the trade bubbles, some geopolitical events such as the war in Russia
10:28having an impact on the nickel price that went up very high the last few years.
10:35So obviously, there is a dependency, a very strong dependency on the material with strategies to control that and I
10:44just mentioned.
10:45And there's a second part that's maybe very close to our core is related to the production costs.
10:54And this is a bit of a challenge when you say, OK, how can you produce in Europe and be
10:59competitive?
11:00Actually, it's possible if you have the best yield in Europe.
11:08And yield is something you don't hear about that much.
11:14And it's not like, hello, what's your yield today?
11:19I guess between battery manufacturers, yes, you could totally say, OK, how's the yield in Europe doing it?
11:26And it's absolutely key because you can have as low yields as 60%.
11:33And this is so bad if you look at the semiconductors industry, which is a very mature and a very
11:41automated one.
11:42It's so much higher. It's like 95 and 98.
11:47No, 60% is real bad.
11:50It doesn't mean you have 40% scrap because there's a lot of things going in the field.
11:54There's efficiency, there's idle time, there's the time you need to change the production type, etc.
12:00But it's extremely inefficient.
12:04And everything you align to take this yield to a higher percentage goes directly into your cost competitiveness.
12:13So that was the real thesis of Vercore.
12:18It was all about managing to enhance this extra competitiveness in Europe and leveraging manufacturing excellence that we have.
12:31So talk to me a bit more about the manufacturing process and how that does relate to driving those costs
12:39down and getting the yield up.
12:40Because I think that's quite an interesting point.
12:43To actually produce these batteries at scale, you need a lot of manufacturing prowess.
12:49You need those engineers, you need the talent, you need the infrastructure, of course.
12:53And you have a gigafactory here in France where you are literally making those batteries.
13:01What are the technical, the scientific breakthroughs that are happening at Vercore that are actually contributing to that cost reduction?
13:11Absolutely.
13:12So the first point was to make it all the information, the process information accessible and actionable in real time.
13:23This means that you have a horizontal backbone where all the data is transformed and translated into something you can
13:34use.
13:35You kind of lose, it's like walking blindfold and then all of a sudden knowing exactly where are the inefficiencies
13:45of your process
13:46and being able to unlock and further optimization at plant level and across all of the different workshops.
13:57Because until then there was local optimization and now there's a kind of overall flow optimization.
14:03This went through talent as you just suggested.
14:06It meant setting up a very talented pool of people working specifically on developing our digital tools.
14:15So this is really obviously a fundamental aspect.
14:20It's also coming through qualified workers in the factory.
14:26And Vercore, I don't know if you're aware, but we have created what we call a battery school,
14:32which is in charge of training over 1,600 people per year.
14:43This is huge.
14:44So this is the ambition of the battery school at all levels from the PhD students to the operators on
14:51the line.
14:52So this is obviously a huge work in progress.
14:59How, what are the initiatives, what are the subsidies and the, I suppose, the political developments here in France?
15:06How is that contributing to what's happening at Vercore and in the EV industry here in France?
15:13We were going to talk about geopolitics.
15:15And what you're seeing right now is in China, there are huge subsidies for the EV industry.
15:22And that obviously helps the domestic industry grow quite tremendously.
15:27So you've seen BYD, Xpeng get massive scale and compete with Tesla and obviously launch here in Europe as well.
15:34For, yeah, for France and for Europe, I mean, now you're hearing discussion about tariffs potentially or trade barriers.
15:43And there's a real concern about just how much prowess China has and the competitiveness not being quite equivalent with
15:50Europe.
15:50How do you address some of those issues and how are you thinking about that at the moment?
15:56Well, obviously, it's an absolute necessity and based on a fair, I would say, mirroring the situation.
16:10And you can say, okay, how much should these tariffs be set?
16:17I think that the base is to have something equivalent to what a European vehicle is charged to enter China.
16:28And so similarly, it makes only sense that the same is applied inversely.
16:35In terms of subsidies, we have received support and subsidies.
16:42What I would say was an historical scope was very related to innovation.
16:53So these subsidies were possible when industrializing an object the first time, when developing new technology.
17:02I do think that there could be a pivot in this help to support industrialization and ramp up in the
17:11early phases, which are the less profitable typically.
17:14And maybe one last point is also in terms of mirror, there's, I would say, I wouldn't see it as
17:26an opposition and a war with China.
17:31There's obviously an experience, a technology.
17:35There's obviously a need to produce in Europe.
17:39And so let's partner.
17:42I mean, I think for a company to go to China, there needs to be a joint venture scheme and
17:50some implication locally of local enterprises.
17:54And the same should happen here. Let's welcome Chinese company to relocate in Dunkirk.
18:00It has happened, for example, with the, or no company, French company with XTC.
18:06They have jointly and selected Dunkirk site.
18:09So our neighbors, this is obviously making sense and the way to go, not in a opposition mindset, but promoting
18:20and collaborating and making.
18:24So you can't, you obviously, I mean, I'm just interested to kind of like see how this conversation expands because
18:30there is this very real friction here in Europe with policymakers looking at those trade barriers.
18:37How do you sort of predict that that conversation will evolve over time?
18:41I mean, do you fear that the tensions with China are going to worsen?
18:45Because obviously for Vercore, well, you still want those commercial relationships, some very big, fruitful relationships as well.
18:53Are you worried at all about that deteriorating given the geopolitical situation at the moment?
18:57It doesn't need to be.
18:58It doesn't need to be.
18:59If we are mirroring an equivalent situation, it's not an aggressive stake, as aggressive as the US posture is right
19:08now.
19:09Yeah.
19:09So I think it can completely go in a positive win-win kind of agreement.
19:18Definitely.
19:19I want to ask about what's the right approach to EVs because you've got fully battery electric vehicles, which is
19:28obviously, I suppose, the most sustainable alternative to internal combustion engines.
19:34But you've also got plug-in hybrids as well.
19:37And data shows that plug-in hybrids are currently the vehicles that are seeing the most adoption.
19:43I think for some of those reasons you mentioned earlier about the batteries, you know, that adds a lot of
19:47costs, obviously.
19:49What is the right approach when it comes to EVs for consumers, you know, whether to go battery or plug
19:55-in hybrid?
19:56Is there, you know, one true answer for the future?
19:59I am personally very, very much an EV fan.
20:06Not, I mean, I am a happy and proud EV owner.
20:11I do think that the bridges...
20:14What do you drive?
20:15A Megane-Electric.
20:17Oh, wow.
20:19So it's the hurdles and challenges are frankly being bridged.
20:27And I wouldn't go into this additional complexity of having both an internal combustion engine and the battery, if the
20:36battery can do everything.
20:37So it's all about battery performance being dense, energy dense enough, enhancing the right range, being accessible.
20:48But I do think it's a sturdier and a better solution to be full EV.
20:54And I think a lot of OEMs around Europe have also stated this very clearly.
21:00There can be a transition, but the end game will be full electric vacation.
21:05It will be full EVs, yeah.
21:06And that transition, I mean, we're seeing 2030, you know, that's kind of the current year that most, I think,
21:13are working towards.
21:15So the clock is ticking.
21:17Exactly, exactly.
21:19The core was really born with a time to market idea of delivering as fast as possible and targeting the
21:262025 timeframe.
21:28In 2025 was the first drop in the CAFE regulation, European average CO2 emissions that meant additional penalties.
21:37I think the trajectory for 2025 is there.
21:42It is met.
21:44Most of the OEM will get there with no penalty and with a mix of 15 to 20 percent EV.
21:51The next big, big wall and what we're looking at very attentively and the challenge will be 2030.
21:582030 is 10 points lower.
22:01It means quite a lot of higher EV in the mix.
22:06Everybody's getting ready for this with a more attractive pipeline and so that's the goal.
22:15Do you think they'll make it by 2030?
22:19It can be maybe delayed one year or something like this, but eventually, of course, yes.
22:25So it's just a question of small time fluctuation, but yes.
22:31Totally.
22:34We're close to time, but I still have more questions.
22:39Because I'm really interested in hearing about the batteries.
22:44One thing we haven't touched on, Anne, is longevity and actually making sure these are batteries that can last for
22:50many, many years
22:51and not degrade over time and enter the scrap heap, which makes them less sustainable as an option.
22:58How do you make sure that these batteries can last for a long time?
23:02So that's one run.
23:05The only point of disagreement maybe we have.
23:08I am absolutely not worried about durability.
23:13I have been in charge of all the durability, calculation, extrapolation, telematics data, etc.
23:20Batteries are clearly over-engineered to last longer than the worst-case scenarios.
23:27So what worries me is that these batteries will last too long and will delay the moment where they will
23:39re-enter in a circular economy spirit
23:42the supply chain as recycled material.
23:47So we need this input.
23:50Eventually it will be put in place, set up, and then a sort of balanced loop.
23:59But this needs to happen and then durability is taking these batteries out.
24:04Are you seeing interesting recycling initiatives when it comes to batteries?
24:08Absolutely.
24:09Plenty.
24:10Plenty.
24:10Plenty.
24:10And we need so much.
24:11It's a very young industry.
24:13I think there's a lot of investors out there.
24:17If I had some money I would bet on a recycling company because clearly it's a new space and so
24:26much is needed to get it up and running at the right levels.
24:30Yeah, totally.
24:32Partnerships, we've kind of touched on the need for collaboration with cross-border.
24:38But how important are partnerships for EVs to flourish?
24:42I mean, how much do you need to ensure you have the right stakeholders here?
24:46Completely critical.
24:48The one we had with Renault is an example.
24:52But partnerships are essential all over the place.
24:55I mean, vertical integration is great, but you cannot do everything by yourself.
25:01Yeah.
25:01And there are so many skillful companies that do things better.
25:07And so, it's all about partnering with the right people and building up this European ecosystem.
25:16So, it's all about that.
25:17Both upstream and on the supply chain side.
25:22What I was mentioning and relocalization, etc.
25:25But also, with downstream our customers, well, there's Renault, but there's a whole integrators ecosystem, for example.
25:33We have a partnership with OP Mobility on battery making, on pack making.
25:40This is, of course, very, very useful.
25:44Totally.
25:45Just one fun one to end the conversation on.
25:48Just curious to get your thoughts.
25:50What has been the best thing that any country, or any company, or even community, has done to support a
25:56shift to clean energy and transportation?
26:00As a user, I'm a big, big fan of this amazing infrastructure we have in France.
26:10I don't know about the other.
26:12I need to travel elsewhere to check.
26:15But having this super-fast charges all along the highway, every single time you stop, no choice, this is very
26:24fluid.
26:24And it helps a lot for the EV adoption.
26:27Totally.
26:28Well, great to hear from you, Anne.
26:30Thank you so much for the time.
26:31And I hope everyone got a lot from that conversation and enjoyed it.
26:35Yeah, very interesting insights.
26:37A bright future for EVs, by the sounds of it.
26:40So, yeah, interesting things to come.
26:42Thanks, everyone, for attending.
26:44Thank you.
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