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Deeptech Investment, Innovation, and the Road to Reality
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00:01Thank you very much, thank you for being here, thank you for coming along to the panel here.
00:05So we're talking about deep tech, which is obviously very vogue at the moment.
00:10Of course, AI has really brought this to the fore in the last couple of years.
00:13I was walking around the exhibition hall earlier and I was thinking how many of these amazing things that we're
00:18seeing in there have their roots in deep tech.
00:21And we've got a great panel to talk about it.
00:23I was looking, doing some research about this, and apparently deep tech is now so popular we can call it
00:28sexy.
00:29So there we are.
00:30Here we have Maya Noel, who's Managing Director of France Digital.
00:34And Maya is the leading European startup and investor association with nearly 2,000 members.
00:41That's the France Digital.
00:42Kevin Diedue is the Co-Founder and Chief R&D Officer, Senior Modeler at Descartes.
00:47Kevin is responsible for data science, research and product development initiatives to offer corporate covers for the insurance industry.
00:55And Andy Schwartzenbrunner is from Speed Invest and a partner.
01:00Andy found his way into venture capital via politics, an unusual route, as you say in your bio there, Andy.
01:05And as a former economic policy advisor, he now looks for promising business ideas and trends in industrial tech and
01:13climate tech for Speed Invest.
01:15So I think a lot of people here, maybe you guys are experts, I'm not sure.
01:19I didn't really know about this topic until I started doing this panel research and looking into this.
01:23But I think it might be helpful to start off, can we define what deep tech is?
01:28How would you guys say that?
01:30Yeah, I think it's a good idea to define this world because I think it could be just a buzzword
01:36that you like to say,
01:37yeah, I'm working in deep tech industry because maybe it's a way to have deeper pockets to get some more
01:42money, you see.
01:42So, yeah, the definition for me basically would be maybe that this is a company where there are some patents
01:49behind it.
01:50So real research that you can have patents with.
01:54And also, I think it's a good thing to maybe make a parallel between deep tech and industry, especially in
02:00France,
02:00because why is this world so trendy right now?
02:03I think it's because we are shifting the paradigm where we were very focused on software and SaaS industry
02:10and we are now starting to get some money invested.
02:14I mean, venture capital are starting to invest also in industrial projects, which is pretty related to deep tech industry.
02:22So this is my definition.
02:23How would you guys define it? Is that about right for you?
02:25Because in our pre-panel discussion, we kind of all agreed it does vary on your position and your angle
02:32on what you define as deep tech.
02:35Yeah, so I would say that on top of what Maya just said, I think we can also mention everything
02:45related to the use of new algorithm
02:49that were difficult to crack, to run, with, I would say, previous infrastructures.
02:57Now that we can use, I would say, cloud capabilities, very large computing power,
03:05you can really crack things that you were not able to crack before.
03:09And this is, I think, a game changer for a lot of industrial applications.
03:13And maybe to add to that, so from our end, it's everything that really has, like, a unique technology.
03:19There is some IP and patents involved.
03:22It solves a problem that has not been solved before and it does it in a very unique way.
03:27And usually when you look at it from an investor's perspective, it usually takes way longer to scale a deep
03:33tech company.
03:34It often involves way more capital, often also very capex intense,
03:39especially when you look at hardware development or really new products.
03:42And this is also a very, very different cycle in the way how you finance a company, how you scale
03:47a company.
03:48So there are a lot of things that are very different on scaling a software company.
03:52So for us, this is how we look at deep tech.
03:55We look at it really with a different angle and assessing the technology,
04:00assessing how we actually could scale that company,
04:02also have a way different lifetime on how we look at this business.
04:06and also how do we actually finance and secure the capital needed, actually,
04:12to make this company successful.
04:15And we often call it a bit, so that's our, let's say, our moonshots in a way,
04:21because they create new things and new markets that have not been existing before.
04:25And I think this is also what makes deep tech exciting, I think.
04:29Do you think that all deep techs are moonshots in a sense?
04:33Because you're looking at things so far in advance and you're years and years in the lab.
04:38Is that a good layman term way to look at it?
04:44No, I don't think so.
04:45I think the question is also what does moonshot really mean in the end of the day.
04:49It's a bit of an overused password as well.
04:52I don't think necessarily, right?
04:54I think there are also things that is a new technology that makes a specific process,
05:00a product, or the way we do things much better.
05:03And it also really adds value to how we do things and to society
05:06and really also creates economic value.
05:09is this necessary something that creates something unique, new?
05:12No, but I think it's also really innovation and driving things forward on how we do things.
05:18But still, I think that you have to look at deep tech project with a big ambition.
05:24And as you said, I think that the real difference with the startups in deep tech
05:28versus the startup in software industry is that the timing is not the same.
05:32And when you invest, you take maybe a bigger risk.
05:36So you invest more money, you have to wait longer.
05:39So even if it's not a moonshot project, I mean, the ambition when you're facing a deep tech project must
05:45be high.
05:45Otherwise, it's not real description.
05:47Yeah, you've got to be very patient if you're investing in deep tech, haven't you?
05:52Can you give us some examples then of what are deep tech success stories?
05:57And let's try and ignore AI because that seems to be...
06:01I mentioned how AI has made deep tech sexy now, but let's try and ignore that.
06:05Let's go for some other ones.
06:06What springs to mind for you guys when you think of the big success stories in deep tech?
06:14Actually, I'm looking.
06:17The success stories are still coming, especially in France, I will say.
06:21I think that we have amazing talent sharing AI, but also, for instance, in the content industry.
06:27And I think it could be a major success as a deep tech investment.
06:31But we have to wait a little bit.
06:33It's not for today.
06:34And this is why it's so hard for our content startups today.
06:37We have actually good players in this field.
06:42We have, for instance, Candela.
06:43We have Pascal.
06:44But still, they don't have the market for it.
06:47We have to keep on investing in them.
06:49But they could be potentially big success, especially, I think, in health, for instance.
06:56But actually, in any field.
06:57But there are still success to come.
06:59And we need to invest a lot in them.
07:01And this is what I want to say.
07:03I mean, we're going to talk about it later on.
07:05But we are still waiting for some success in France.
07:10Maybe to add to that.
07:12So, for us, there are three areas where I think Europe has a lot of things to do.
07:16And the first is everything around productivity.
07:18If you look at demographics in Europe, we need to be more productive.
07:23The second thing is healthcare.
07:25Same topic.
07:27Demographics leads to a lot of topics on the healthcare side.
07:30And the third for us is the whole energy and climate transition.
07:33So, we basically rewire our whole economy towards zero carbon.
07:37And this means we change everything on how we do things, how we get around, the products we consume, etc.
07:43And for us, there are very concrete examples, for example, from our portfolio.
07:50We invest in a company that really automizes port logistics and inter-logistics at companies, for example.
07:59So, there's no driver involved anymore.
08:01There's nothing involved.
08:02So, the forklift, the truck, everything happens fully automatically.
08:06So, you can basically automize whole port logistics.
08:09I think a lot of things on productivity where you can use technology.
08:15The second, for example, is a quantum computer.
08:19We invest in a quantum computer coming out of Max Planck Institute in Germany.
08:23Then we have a company, for example, that the whole topic about batteries is quite a hot one.
08:28So, the way we recycle batteries today is actually quite inefficient.
08:32So, there's not that much lithium that we get out of it.
08:34So, this company, Cylip, developed a new process on how they actually take EV batteries and get more lithium out
08:43of it.
08:44They work with big companies like Porsche and others already.
08:47So, I think there are a few areas that are really concrete examples.
08:51Like, another one is 1.5.
08:55They do sustainable packaging.
08:57So, whenever you go in a supermarket in five years, they work with all the big brands like Nestle and
09:02others.
09:03Like, the product soon in five years is going to be fully, the packaging is going to be fully sustainable.
09:09And so, that's an example for how we adapt to the climate transition and how the economy also adapts.
09:16So, I think there are a lot of examples along those areas that we are really excited to invest in.
09:21And I suppose all those examples, you mentioned five years, did you, for the packaging one?
09:27These things take a long time from initial idea to seeing the market, to being in a place like this.
09:33Kevin, can you think of any examples of deep tech that you think of really show the success of it?
09:38Yeah, so, in my space, which is around climate and weather prediction, we have lots of partners that provide us
09:46now data that was not available today before because of cost issue and scale, I would say, scalability issues.
09:55So, everything related to the miniaturization and the use of space technology, for example, that allows us now to gather
10:03data and in areas where we could not get data is, I think, groundbreaking,
10:11especially because of the reduction of cost to get data and we see like startups that actually doing the job
10:21of, I would say, big corporates that were selling this type of hardware
10:27and now doing, I would say, a very good job at producing this miniaturization, I would say, hardware that helped
10:38really to do some breakthrough in terms of prediction and local modeling of the risk.
10:45And, Maya, why do you think deep tech is often talked about as being the answer to our really big
10:51problems in society, climate change, that kind of thing?
10:54Why is there so much reliance on deep tech and do you think it will live up to its potential?
11:03Yeah, I can take this one, clearly, around climate change, as I mentioned before, the capacity to, I would say,
11:16get new data that we could not get,
11:19so being from new satellites that will launch new sensors, radars that in the past, you know, you had, it
11:29cost millions of dollars, you have to,
11:32only a few countries could actually install them, now you have many companies that propose to install this type of
11:41devices in remote areas in the world,
11:44and that means that you can now, as a start-up, not a national agency, provide local weather modeling for
11:53local population, governments, and companies that need more precise data,
12:00and in the front of climate change, I think it's really, I would say, it creates news that we can
12:07rely not only on the public sector to provide this information,
12:10but also to get, to have, I would say, small companies now being able to produce weather forecasts, localized,
12:20and that's really, what's not, like, thinkable in the past, I think, in the last, maybe 10, 20 years ago,
12:27as I said, it was only, I would say, something that was in the scope of big national agencies that
12:34had the power, capabilities,
12:36and also the hardware to compute and to run their models.
12:43And maybe two things to that, I think also that, I mean, you look, the way everyone looks at deep
12:49tech now in Europe is,
12:50first of all, we solved a lot of problems that are the low-hanging fruits and that are easy, right?
12:56You go online and you buy stuff from the internet, right?
12:59I mean, that was a thing, like, 15 years ago, and everyone was like, wow.
13:04And we solved a lot of things that were easier to solve, and I think now it's about really also
13:09tackling the hard problems.
13:11And the reason why we realized that this is important is, if you look at COVID and, for example,
13:17the whole supply chain disruptions and the way it affected how we live,
13:21and also, if you look at Ukraine and if you look at other topics, if you look at the climate
13:26and energy transition,
13:27we realized in order to solve those problems, we, first of all, also need to touch physical goods,
13:33and we need to solve, like, deep problems in order to really, really make progress.
13:39And I think that is why there's way more attention and capital now on deep tech than it was five
13:45years ago.
13:48Well, at France Digital, we definitely believe that innovation is part of a solution against the climate change,
13:54and we have a lot of examples among members of companies who are really changing things.
13:58For instance, I can say, I can talk about Neolites, I can talk about Fermat,
14:02and they are really revolutionizing the carbon capture, for instance.
14:07I can talk about being an aero, they are building the new airplane with hydrogen.
14:12So, I really think that we can make a great change with innovation.
14:16And what is very interesting in our ecosystem is that we can see that today,
14:19the funders of this company already want to build startups and companies for a purpose, I will say.
14:28And I know that impact is also another big buzzword,
14:32but I do definitely feel among members and entrepreneurs that they really want to change things through innovation.
14:39And with all this attention on the deep tech industry, do you feel that things are getting easier to flourish
14:45now?
14:45I was reading that there's a big disparity, for example, between deep tech industries in the US versus Europe.
14:52The US moves four times faster, apparently, compared to EU deep tech companies.
14:59Do you see that, or are you more optimistic about how things are right now?
15:02We'll talk about the future in a minute, but how are things right now?
15:05I think that things are definitely improving a lot.
15:09But as I said, innovating, and especially in the tech industry, for that you need a lot of money and
15:16you have to take a lot of risk.
15:18And what we can see in France, I mean in Europe basically, but especially in France, is that we are
15:23a bit risk-averse.
15:23And the investments we make are maybe too small when definitely you're looking across the Atlantic.
15:31Which is a bit sad, because I think that today we have a lot of great talent to innovate.
15:36We have some Nobel Prize, we have a lot of great engineers in AI, for instance.
15:41And they are there, but sometimes they decide to cross the Atlantic to go because we don't have money for
15:47them.
15:47When you say risk-averse, do you mean that the money, is it just, is it a money game?
15:51The money is not coming in from investors.
15:53The money is definitely an issue, but I think that things are improving.
15:57Just that maybe we have to coordinate at the European level, because if you just look at the French market,
16:02it's too small.
16:03And you have to get some money out of the way.
16:06So there is this question of money, but I think there is also this lack of vision.
16:11And I think it's a private, but also a public vision.
16:14I mean, political have a real, I mean, they have to engage themselves in this fight, because we have to
16:22be all aligned if we want to take some risk.
16:25Are you saying that there's a lack of vision from the entrepreneurs, or from regulators?
16:31Where is that coming from?
16:34I will say, first of all, from the regulation.
16:37But this is not really true.
16:38I think that people have to work at the same rhythm to make things evolve.
16:44And I can see in both sides some ambition, and I can see some people that want to take risks,
16:49but you have to align everyone around it.
16:51And it's especially difficult in Europe, when you have to align 27 countries with different visions, with different relationships with
16:59the markets.
16:59Because, as I said, if we're just in France, it's great to invest hundreds of millions of euros, sometimes billions,
17:08but it's too small when you are looking at the east or west side.
17:12So, yeah, I mean, there is a real job of allowing the 27 European countries.
17:18And also, I think, as a real-life example, so we invest all across Europe, and a lot of our
17:23companies are active in the U.S. as well.
17:25And when the U.S. administration announced the IRA to really support also the energy transition and the climate transition
17:33in the U.S.,
17:33a lot of our companies started to open up offices in the U.S.
17:37and they grow their 5x faster than they do in Europe.
17:40Because if you close an enterprise client in Europe, it just takes three times as much.
17:47And if you want to build a factory in Europe and all the regulatory approval processes, it just takes ages.
17:53And that's just the reality.
17:54Everyone who builds a business in Europe knows that this is the reality.
17:57You have to deal with multiple stakeholders.
17:59It takes a long time.
18:01They always want to just cover their ass.
18:04That's their job.
18:05And in the U.S., if they want to do something, they do it.
18:08And they do it faster.
18:09And I think this is the attitude we need.
18:12I'm very optimistic about France.
18:14I mean, actually, not French.
18:15Everyone can hear that.
18:18But I think a lot of other European countries, they have not got this yet.
18:24I think, at least in France, there is some kind of sentiment that, yes, we need to change in order
18:29to not lose out.
18:31Kevin, what are your thoughts?
18:33Just to comment on that, again, talking about the weather that I know quite well, if I can only concur,
18:41if you see the differences between the states in France and between the states in Europe, if you need to
18:46deploy, for example, sensors across one country to have a network and to build a first product, it's really different
18:54from one state to the other because of the different rules.
18:57Can I install in a public space or not?
19:01Which, I would say, which authorization I need to get?
19:05And clearly, yes, we see different patterns across Europe.
19:10I must say that in France, it's going quite well in that respect.
19:14But we look forward to seeing more uniformity across Europe in that regard.
19:22Also, when I was talking about investment and risk that we take, the difference also is that we love subsidies
19:28in France and in Europe.
19:30But what we need is public procurements and there is no pre-order for big, you know, big, deep tech
19:36projects.
19:37And this is, I think, maybe the first difference is the relationship between, yes, the procurement, which is definitely different
19:45from the US, and also the fact that we have also some issues, you know, creating something between the researchers,
19:54public space, and the business.
19:57Like, if we were scared of the business side, you see, okay, we can give you some subsidies, you have
20:02some money to do your research, you can launch the project, but after that, when you are going in the
20:06market and you just want some orders, some procurement, there is no one.
20:09Yeah, and there is this gap, like, in Europe, there is this gap, when you are working on a deep
20:14tech project and you develop something new, then you usually have a very good grand system.
20:19So, that gets you covered in the beginning.
20:21Then, the pre-seed and seed financing ecosystem by now is also, I would say, quite okay-ish.
20:28And then, there are subsidies, so there is all kinds of support.
20:31But, there is this gap between 10 and 100 million, so to say, because in between there, you have not
20:38proven yet that you have a commercially viable business model that you can scale, especially if it involves hardware and
20:47CAPEX.
20:48It's easy then, if you really have proven that it works and you want to raise 100 million, because there,
20:53again, there are pools of money you can tap into.
20:55But, in between, there is this big gap, especially for research and deep tech in Europe, that often then, funnily,
21:02gets filled up by foreign investors that are not European.
21:05But, I think this is the gap we need to solve in order to really scale our own R&D
21:12and our own developments that we do in Europe and also, basically, get the proceeds from it, right?
21:18Because we also lose out, then, on the proceeds.
21:21With that gap, then, in the US, what are they doing differently?
21:24Is it just money?
21:28Yeah, I think, also, it's very cultural.
21:31When I say there is a gap between the researchers and the business, is that we, I mean, things are
21:39involving, and I don't want to say it's all bad.
21:42And, you know, when I talk about subsidies, there are a lot of great projects in France, especially like France
21:472030, they are investing a lot.
21:49And, I think this is a good, you know, starter to go to, yeah, to launch the projects.
21:56But, if you're a researcher, I mean, it's not good to go in the private industry, actually.
22:03It's not something that is done, usually.
22:05You're still in the research, because it's nice to be a researcher.
22:09You cannot be a researcher and a businessman.
22:11It's very cultural in France.
22:13I don't know.
22:14Well, it's a different skill set, isn't it?
22:16If you're in the lab researching, you're not necessarily thinking about the bottom line, are you?
22:20No, yeah, I would say that maybe, yeah, I would say maybe 10 years ago, it was really the case.
22:28Now, I see that things are changing, and there is definitely a bit of a cultural shift, and actually, I
22:34see more and more labs that are coming to us and say,
22:39Okay, okay, we actually want to do something concrete with what we just found, and we want to make it
22:47applicable in the real life to protect people, for example, in the insurance sector.
22:54But, yeah, I would say that it's still complicated to, and maybe there is, yeah, still some issues in that
23:02respect, but it's much better, I would say, than 10, 15 years ago.
23:06So, to have an optimistic view on that.
23:09How about you, Andy?
23:10Do you think that that culture shift has happened, is happening in businesses?
23:17I think it has to some extent, yes.
23:19So, to name a few concrete examples, so we invested, for example, in a lot of companies coming out of
23:25the Technical University in Munich,
23:28that, like, 20 years ago, really set up this entrepreneurship institute that was heavily financed by a lot of Munich
23:36-based industrial families.
23:37That's how they started.
23:39And by now, like, every professor, for example, at the Tech University in Munich is incentivized by how many startups
23:45they spin off from the institute, right?
23:46So, by now, it's a game between professors, like, okay, who can push more students in building a startup?
23:52And if you ask students there, like, what's their number one career choice, like, everyone starts a business.
23:57Like, literally, like, every second person at uni starts a business.
24:00And they have created an ecosystem where this is, like, the default case, because there are other role models who
24:07have been successful.
24:08There is capital.
24:09There is know-how.
24:10And I think there are a lot of other areas in Europe where they really, really managed to create an
24:16ecosystem for entrepreneurship and to foster that culture as well of taking risk.
24:20Because, I think, in Paris, as an example, I mean, also, if you look at Ecole Polytechnique, I think, by
24:26now, there are a lot of cool companies coming out of it.
24:29And there's more and more, also, more willingness now to start a business.
24:35And this is also slowly changing that people think this is a really cool career choice and they want to
24:41start a business.
24:41And I think we need more of that, especially at the good, good technical universities, because the talent is there.
24:48And I think there is a lot of know-how.
24:50I think what we really also need to bring is, besides the capital, an ecosystem of role models and know
24:58-how, et cetera, that helps those students to build a business.
25:02I was going to ask you about the talent and whether or not there is an issue with other countries
25:06and other regions of the world taking some of that deep tech talent.
25:09But, by the sounds of it, Andy, you're pretty positive on that.
25:12The talent is in, for example, Europe.
25:14It's here.
25:15Would you guys agree?
25:17Yeah, they are here.
25:18It's good to keep them.
25:20And I think we're tending to succeed more and more because it was completely different 10 years ago.
25:25I mean, there were a lot of French people or European people going abroad and never coming back, which is
25:30not the case today, which is good to see that they feel that there is a real potential and it's
25:35possible now to launch real businesses in tech industry in Europe.
25:40But if you look at the U.S., I mean, there are a lot of people who are, I mean,
25:44there is a real immigration that we do not really have in Europe.
25:48And it's quite difficult to attract people from abroad because, as I said before, we have 27 administrations.
25:54It's pretty difficult to get a visa.
25:56And there is no harmonization about the, you know, the stock option plans in Europe.
26:01It's quite difficult.
26:02So, if you want to attract some talent, I do feel that we also need to harmonize this field of,
26:08you know, I mean, of employer brands of Europe and try to make some, yeah, tools to work and to
26:14attract and keep the talents.
26:16And maybe to add to that, I think what a lot of people are not realizing is like how many
26:22great businesses in the U.S. are founded by European founders, right?
26:26If you look at Datadog, Datadog is like a $40 billion market cap.
26:30It's founded by a French founder, right?
26:33If you look at Shopify, it's like $70, $80 billion market cap.
26:37It's a German founder, right?
26:38If you look at Duolingo, like a huge success story, Swiss founder.
26:44So, there are a lot of U.S. businesses that are founded by European founders.
26:49I think what we need to achieve is they stay here and they started here.
26:54I was going to say, you talk about them as success stories, but do you want that in Europe, though?
27:00You want those companies to stay as European founded?
27:03What do you think?
27:06I think it's great, of course, to have ambitions from the very beginning to expand to the U.S. market
27:12because it's, I would say, a very big market for many applications.
27:19Again, talking about the climate issue, it does not end at the frontiers of Europe.
27:25It's also, of course, something that is core for the U.S. and all, I would say, the world in
27:33general.
27:34But, yeah, I think we have great talents.
27:36I think we can especially keep our research centers in France.
27:41That's what we have at Descartes.
27:42We have a research center in France.
27:45And because we find the good talents, we actually manage to attract even outside from France, from Germany, Italy, Europe.
27:55It's true that it's more complex to attract from the U.S. It's true.
28:01And, yeah, sometimes we are maybe missing some key talents.
28:05But, yeah, we are quite satisfied by the current environment today that we have.
28:13Yes, I think we don't miss the talents.
28:15I mean, they're going to stay if we succeed to have this European single market.
28:19And this is what you said before.
28:21And if you can ask people all around Europe, it's easier to raise in the U.S. than in Europe
28:28because it's too fragmented today.
28:30So we really have to build this European single market, definitely.
28:34And I think that a big reason why a lot of them go to the U.S. is because it's
28:40easier to start and scale a business, right?
28:44But if you ask them, where do you want to live?
28:46They all say, I want to live in Europe, right?
28:49And if you ask European founders who are in the U.S., most of them want to go back.
28:53So I think there is something that we can keep them if we actually manage to get the other part
29:00right
29:00and helping them to be successful entrepreneurs.
29:04And also, there is another point in Europe, which is the regulation.
29:07And if you take the example of the health industry, for instance,
29:11I think that a lot of people wanted to build their health company in Europe before,
29:15but then the regulation started to get easier in the U.S.,
29:18so it became more attractive for those companies.
29:21So regulation is key, and I think that in Europe we are pretty good at this.
29:25But it can be good if there is a business potential behind.
29:30Today, I think that we are seen as, it's seen as, yeah, a difficulty to grow in Europe.
29:37On that example of the health industry, what was it that was different then in terms of regulation?
29:43If you are what we call in French a dispositive medical, which means a product, a medical product, something,
29:51I mean, you have to get this stamp saying, okay, you can be in this market.
29:57And it's pretty complicated. It costs a lot.
30:01So from the very beginning, you know that you're going to have to pay, you know, to be compliant.
30:05And in different countries, so there are so many barriers, frontiers that you prefer to go on a single market
30:12where you have only one stamp and it's easier to get this stamp.
30:15We invested in a company that solves exactly that.
30:18It's called Flynn Comply.
30:21But yeah, I think we always make the joke internally, the best investment category in Europe to invest in is
30:27compliance.
30:30Not very sexy though, is it, really? Let's face it.
30:32So what would be your advice then for potentially people in the audience here who are in this industry already
30:39or considering getting into deep tech?
30:41What would be your advice to get over some of these problems you talked about?
30:44So at France Vita, we talk a lot with all the European policymakers that what we try to create is
30:49this kind of European vision,
30:52ambitious vision about innovation.
30:53and we try to grow in the head that we can be an innovation powerhouse and not just a regulation
31:00powerhouse.
31:00So this is the first thing we will be like.
31:03So yeah, I think that we really need to work on this regulation,
31:06to build some what we call sandbox to be sure that we innovate first before being compliant.
31:17Yeah, I would say that first, maybe not only the big project,
31:24lots of money are meaningful in big tech.
31:27I think it's about more hours of work on it, and sometimes it's not about money,
31:32it's really about really getting enough time and time to test and go to the market
31:37and have some feedback, also technical feedback.
31:42But I think first of things is really to check what is the business application
31:48and how it will be commercialized,
31:51because I have some difficult discussions sometimes with technical companies that I work with
31:56that actually have a first idea of how they will sell it or how they will commercialize.
32:02And actually, they figure out 12 months maybe later or sometimes too late
32:08that they should have a bit changed the way they promote it or they sell this service.
32:15And I think it's really key, but I think in all type of, of course, type of companies,
32:22of course, software, but also deep tech, it's very important to know how they will sell it.
32:27I think for me there are four areas, because you said like the things that we would change.
32:33I think the first is labor law.
32:35It needs to be more flexible, and also it needs to be easier to really get talent to Europe with
32:41visas.
32:42I think the second for us is really make employees shareholders.
32:47It's still a huge pain point, and it's still very complicated,
32:51and I think we need to create an ecosystem where people feel as shareholders and entrepreneurs
32:58and have equity in the business.
33:00The third for us is really make it easier for pension funds and insurance companies
33:04to invest in risky assets that still, I mean, we love real estate in Europe.
33:11Everyone loves real estate, but we need to invest in more growth assets.
33:15And the fourth aspect for us really is, in the end of the day,
33:20also about reducing the regulatory burden.
33:23We create an ecosystem where it's way easier for a large business to be successful
33:28because they're the only ones who can deal with the regulatory burden,
33:32and the small ones can't.
33:34And this actually kills small businesses,
33:36and I think those are the four areas that I would change.
33:39Well, I definitely agree with Andrea.
33:41We actually, we published a manifesto for the European election with all these ideas,
33:46so I invite you to check on our website, definitely.
33:49Perfect.
33:50We are out of time.
33:5112 seconds left.
33:52Thank you very much.
33:53I just want to go through your names so everyone knows who you are.
33:56Maya Noel, Kevin Durdieu, and Andy Swartzen-Burner.
33:59Thank you very much.
34:00Thank you, Joe.
34:00Thank you, guys.
34:01Thank you.
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