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Scaling a Global Champion from Europe
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03:55So, you know, when we first met with Nicolas, I thought that, or we thought that his vision was light
04:00years ahead of everything that we had seen in the space.
04:04And then the team that he had at the time, and also today, of course, Adrien, the platform that they
04:10built was hugely impressive.
04:11Yeah.
04:12So, let's just follow on from that and talk a bit more about the central theme today, which is scaling.
04:17So, Guillaume, when we look broadly, particularly at your European portfolio, I mean, since I've been over here in nine
04:26years, that's been a major challenge and something that has been a focus for European startups.
04:31How has that changed in 10 years?
04:33What are you seeing companies now able to do in terms of going international, or at least going beyond Europe,
04:39and building sort of global champions?
04:44Sure.
04:44Well, maybe I could start with what hasn't changed.
04:47And because we don't really talk that much about Europe as a market, which is a hugely, you know, attractive
04:53market for software companies, for tech companies all over the world.
04:57You know, when Uber comes to Europe, when Airbnb comes to Europe, all of a sudden it becomes a huge
05:01pillar of their company.
05:03Same for software companies.
05:05I mean, Google and the likes, they have a lot of huge presence here.
05:09So, we've always had an attractive market.
05:11We've always also had very, very strong talent.
05:14Engineers, entrepreneurs, a lot of the most successful Silicon Valley, or several successful Silicon Valley companies have European founders.
05:23So, we've always had that base.
05:25But the reality is that 10 years ago, most European founders, most fifth founders, got to 100 million of valuation
05:32and thought that that was kind of the end of the game.
05:34What has changed is, first of all, role models, companies like Spotify, companies like Farfetch, and our portfolio that have
05:43demonstrated that you can take a European company and dominate your industry, and also late-stage capital.
05:50The reality of technology is, you know, apart from some exceptions, you're going to need to raise a lot of
05:56funding in order to build a global champion.
05:59And thanks to investors like us, local investors, but also U.S. investors, Asian investors, now there's much more firepower
06:08for European companies to develop.
06:12And so, that's been a big change, and that's also given the confidence to the ecosystem to build, frankly, innovative
06:19models that no one has thought of before.
06:21If you think of Sorare, you know, it's not a U.S. company that invented this.
06:28It's really a French company.
06:29And before, maybe we did a lot of copycats, like Rocket Internet or others.
06:35Now, what we're interested in doing is original models that can take over the world.
06:40And that brings us back to you guys.
06:42I think the first time you and I talked, if I'm getting the timing right, you had gotten off to
06:48the fast start, as Guillaume suggested, in France and in the European market.
06:53And I think you were just at the point of opening a U.S. office in New York and thinking
06:58about that.
06:59And I remember personally being very skeptical, thinking, okay, is a French guy really, what does he know about baseball?
07:04Is he going to convince, you know, the bad NBA to sign a contract?
07:08And you did, which is amazing.
07:11So, what were your, what was your thinking early on strategically that convinced you, you were going to be able
07:17to do those things?
07:18And what was the strategy behind actually making that happen?
07:23Yeah, I think the first thing is, like, if you want to build the biggest brand in the world of
07:27sports, you need to take the U.S. market very seriously, right?
07:31So, and when you said that, in our case, it was about working with the NBA, working with the MLB
07:36and so on.
07:37And then you are, yes, you have, like, big competitors in the U.S. that are bidding for your rights.
07:42So, how do you manage to convince this partner that you are the right partner to build the category and
07:48to build the market with them, right?
07:50So, you need to have around you people that they trust.
07:53So, you need to have investors that they trust in Europe, in the U.S.
07:57Also, you need to have athletes behind you as well.
08:01So, Sabrina Williams, for instance, was sitting, you know, like, next to us to discuss this deal and help us
08:08close this deal.
08:08So, and you need, of course, to convince that you have the right product and the right team to execute
08:15on your vision.
08:16So, I think that's all you get to, you know, have the partnerships in place.
08:19And then you need to grow the brand in the market.
08:23And, of course, there's leagues, there's clubs.
08:27They have massive audiences.
08:28So, you try to leverage them to go to market.
08:32And then leveraging content creators.
08:34We have, you know, thousands of content creators that build an audience talking about our product.
08:40And so, you leverage them also in the U.S., in this case, to help you grow your brand.
08:46Yeah.
08:47And we don't have time to go into the details, but I'm always amazed that there's this massive community around
08:52podcasts, blogs, etc.,
08:56of people who are involved in the Sorare system.
08:58It's a massive ecosystem unto itself beyond the company that's people just spending all day talking about Sorare.
09:05I think the community element is one element that we don't discuss a lot, but I think that is a
09:11massive advantage.
09:11There's not a single day, not a single week where people, you know, want to spend time together, create content,
09:17dozens of podcasts, side games, like streams and so on that are created because, you know, people are passionate about
09:25the score,
09:25are passionate about the brand and feel, you know, because they own the game, they own the game items,
09:31they feel a level of connection that they've never felt in Web2Gaming, where, you know, like,
09:35every year there's 100 billion that is spent in games, but people won't own the items.
09:41So it's money that, you know, like, they cannot recover, right?
09:44So that's just a paradigm shift for the gaming industry, and gamers are starting to realize.
09:52Yeah.
09:52So, Guillaume, what is the role in that scaling of a fund like Grazio?
09:57Again, you guys are across all stages, really, of a lifespan of the journey of a startup.
10:04So do you have a specific role, or is it kind of adapted to the needs of each company that
10:09comes along
10:10and what they need help with?
10:12Yeah, well, it's definitely one size fits.
10:15I mean, there isn't one size fits all.
10:17I mean, if you look at what Nikolai is doing, you know, partnering with the NBA,
10:22with leagues all over the world in Japan, so that's not really replicable
10:28because it's really, like, a unique thing.
10:31But in our wider portfolio of startups, between early stage and late stage,
10:35we do have around 200 portfolio companies, and so most of these, overwhelming majority,
10:42actually, have already gone international.
10:44And so what we do is we help the new ones benefit from the experience of the old ones.
10:49That's a clear one, and we actually have a playbook on, you know, if you're French,
10:55how do you go to Germany?
10:56You know, if you're from somewhere else in Europe, how do you come to France?
11:00How do you go to the U.S.?
11:01So that's a playbook that we share.
11:03And also one area where we've been super active is in M&A.
11:08So on every given year, about one-third of our portfolio will be active in M&A,
11:13and we find it a pretty attractive way to secure market share internationally.
11:18I mean, it's not for every company, but in our portfolio we have, for example,
11:22Vestiaire Collective, a second-hand marketplace to buy second-hand clothes.
11:27They actually bought their U.S. competitor, giving them, like, you know,
11:32an acceleration into the U.S. market that would have maybe taken years.
11:36And so that's one area where you don't necessarily have the know-how within the founding team.
11:41You don't also necessarily have the know-how of M&A within your cap table,
11:46because maybe you have early-stage investors that are more product guys
11:51rather than, I'd say, corporate finance experts.
11:54And so that's definitely one area where we help our companies a lot,
11:58and we found that to be a very, you know,
12:01a successful route to continue internalization.
12:04Yeah.
12:04So, Nicola, obviously when you're thinking about which VCs you want to invest,
12:10you've had some choices there,
12:12and obviously a piece of that is the check itself.
12:15But I'm also wondering beyond that, you know,
12:18you mentioned, for instance, Venus Williams a minute ago.
12:20When you're looking at the mix of VCs you have in the cap table,
12:24what are you, and you continue to have some from Europe and some from the U.S.,
12:28what are you looking for, particularly from a European investor,
12:32to be in that cap table?
12:33Why is that important?
12:34And in general, what else are you looking for those VCs
12:38to help you with beyond the money element?
12:42Yeah, I think you said, you know, the check is important,
12:44the valuation is important,
12:45but actually, like, for the four rounds of financing we've made,
12:48we never took the higher valuation, right?
12:50Because the people that are going to build with you for the decades to come
12:55are, in my mind, like, as equally important, right?
13:00And not only the brand, but also the people, right?
13:03Like, the partner in the brand, right?
13:06And so, like, if I take concrete examples with our partnerships with Oraseo,
13:11so we have been talking about regulations.
13:13When you create a new category, you are moving lines,
13:16and so you need, you know, frameworks that are new, right?
13:20And so, like, having people that, you know,
13:22and investors and entrepreneurs that went through that is very important.
13:27So that's one example.
13:28The connections, hiring, like, you grow fast, you need to add to your team,
13:32so that there's areas where they can help a lot as well,
13:35and introductions to partners.
13:37In our case, potential customers, it's not applicable,
13:39but we've been in touch with potential partners thanks to them,
13:43and so that's all very valuable.
13:46So we just have a few minutes.
13:47Let's touch on a few last points here very quickly.
13:50One for you, Nicola.
13:52There's a lot of talk in terms of regulation,
13:55different elements that could impact you.
13:57There's been a lot of activity here in France and Europe
14:00and things like Web3 and the metaverse.
14:02Yeah.
14:02What are some of the sort of critical regulatory things you're looking at,
14:06and what are the challenges or concerns there?
14:09Yeah, I mean, on regulation, on our end,
14:12like, even before the company was started in 18,
14:18we were approaching regulators, saying who we are,
14:21why we believe an adaptive framework is needed,
14:23why we are very different from, like, the existing products in the market,
14:27and so on.
14:27So as a company, this is something that is important, right?
14:30Because it's in your best interest to protect your community
14:33and to have clarity in the way you can build and market your product.
14:37That's the first point.
14:38And then, of course, you want a framework that is balanced, right?
14:41Like, it's protecting, but also not killing innovation, right?
14:46So that's the balance that we advocate for
14:49and that hopefully we'll find in the main jurisdictions, including in France.
14:54Yeah.
14:55And then where do you see Sorare in five years?
14:58Look, as I said, we have one goal,
15:03which is to build the biggest brand in the world of sports.
15:05To do that, five years from here,
15:08we want to have the biggest community in the world of sports.
15:11We are talking community.
15:12So the place where you spend time with your friends,
15:15you meet new friends,
15:16you consume sports,
15:18you engage with the sports,
15:20with gaming,
15:21and you collect and you connect,
15:23you know,
15:24with the athletes that you love
15:25and the teams that you love.
15:26So that's what we are building
15:28at the intersection of, you know,
15:30like social network,
15:31gaming, collecting,
15:32so different categories that exist
15:34to build a product that is unique.
15:37Okay, lightning round,
15:39last big question.
15:40I'll start with Guillaume.
15:41Any general advice for people
15:43on how to start thinking about scaling internationally?
15:46You mentioned there's not a one-size-fits-all,
15:48but I assume at least an early question
15:50is to decide,
15:52do you have that ambition?
15:55Definitely.
15:56I mean, I think that when the investors,
15:59when the founders get to our level,
16:01I mean, if we ask that question,
16:03they're sort of,
16:04they have to say that they have the ambition,
16:05or else they don't really know
16:08how to play the game.
16:09But I think that it's sort of inherent now
16:12when you start a company,
16:14when you start raising funds,
16:16that, you know,
16:16you need to have that ambition.
16:18So that's something that we generally see.
16:21And I'd say maybe it's not for the founders,
16:24not some advice,
16:25but, I mean, Nicolas,
16:26you had a tribune this morning
16:27on, you know,
16:29being an entrepreneur coming out of France.
16:32And I'd say, you know,
16:33to all aspiring founders
16:35or founders today
16:36that the road that we've done
16:40in the past 10 years
16:41as a European tech ecosystem
16:44has been, you know,
16:45crazy successful.
16:48But you have to believe,
16:49because clearly 10 years ago,
16:51I mean,
16:51before even VivaTech,
16:53you know,
16:54a lot of people were dismissing
16:55European technology.
16:57and it took, you know,
16:59some very brave founders
16:59and also some investors
17:01and then finally some clients
17:03and also the tech,
17:05the political ecosystem
17:06to make the environment
17:08as it is today.
17:09So just talking about France,
17:11it's now the second biggest
17:12tech market in Europe.
17:14And so I'd say, you know,
17:16continue to believe,
17:17because in 10 years,
17:19it's going to be 10 times bigger.
17:21And, you know,
17:22thanks to companies like Nicholas's,
17:24thanks to Sarar's.
17:26So, you know,
17:27a few years ago,
17:29USVCs were saying,
17:30well, take your company
17:31and flip it somewhere else
17:32because you're not going to make it.
17:34And I like that, you know,
17:35some,
17:36or a lot now,
17:37founders are brave enough
17:38to say, no,
17:39I mean,
17:39these are my roots.
17:40This is where, you know,
17:41I started my company
17:43and I want to stay here.
17:45So I, you know,
17:45I'd recommend to continue doing that.
17:48Nicola,
17:49you'll have the last word here.
17:51Just advice from your experience
17:53on scaling,
17:53mistakes you made
17:54or things that you learned
17:55along the way
17:56that you would just
17:58remind people to think about
17:59or be ready for.
18:03I believe my one advice
18:04to any, like,
18:06aspiring entrepreneur
18:07is, like,
18:08to find a drive
18:09that is very strong
18:11and that helps you
18:13and that passionates you
18:14every single morning
18:15because once you have that,
18:17you have a feel
18:18that is, you know,
18:19like, amazing
18:20that can last for decades, right?
18:22And I think that's really
18:24what you need to find
18:25because starting a company
18:26is hard,
18:26scaling a company is hard.
18:28You know,
18:29every stage
18:30comes with unique challenges
18:31and you need to reinvent
18:32your role as a CEO,
18:34your leadership team
18:35need to reinvent themselves as well.
18:37and you take lots of hits,
18:39so you need that drive,
18:40you need that passion.
18:41If you have that,
18:42you can go a long way.
18:43Okay, we're getting
18:44the red flag here,
18:45so we'll end there,
18:46but thank you both very much.
18:47Thank you.
18:48Please give them
18:48a big round of applause.
18:50Thank you.
18:51Thank you.
18:51Thank you.
18:51Thank you.
18:51Thank you.
18:52Thank you.
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