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Scaling Up Hydrogen
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00:00C'est parti !
00:41Well, welcome back. That was a short break, and we're going to go seamlessly from fusion
00:47energy to another very promising solution for a decarbonized world, which is hydrogen.
00:56I'm joined here today by an eminent panel of experts, but in fact also practitioners,
01:02and I'm going to try to go over them. I know you're around me in a very special setup,
01:07but I want to go over our guests in a sort of logical order, okay? Let's see if I can
01:14get this right.
01:15Over here, to my right-hand side and the audience left-hand side, we have Gauri Singh.
01:21Gauri, you are the Deputy General Director of the International Renewable Energy Agency,
01:26and therefore I suppose somebody who has great oversight over everything that's happening in the renewable energy space,
01:32and I suppose also some role in defining how it is regulated and how it is overseen by various national
01:40governments.
01:41Thank you for joining us. Then I'm going to try to go into the real economy, the real hydrogen economy,
01:48and I want to start over here with Aurelie. Aurelie Orsibal, you're the Head of Hydrogen Strategy at EDF,
01:58but in fact you're not just doing strategy at EDF, hydrogen is already a reality.
02:04You produce hydrogen already at EDF, is that right?
02:07Yeah, that's right, thank you.
02:08Okay, well we're going to talk about that in a second.
02:11So we have a hydrogen producer who also thinks about strategy, then over there to my left and your right
02:18is Andreas Lehmann.
02:19Andreas is a former consultant, I know because you worked for McKinsey, I worked for Bain, you know, wonderful company.
02:27But today you are the Chief Strategy Officer at Hydrogenius LOHC.
02:33Okay, I'm going to give you the chance to say about what LOHC means in just a second.
02:39In fact, why don't you tell us right now, what does it stand for?
02:42Yeah, so LOHC is Liquid Organic Hydrogen Carriers, and that basically means you're binding hydrogen to a liquid oil,
02:50so that you make the hydrogen transportable, because that is a bit the challenge with hydrogen to transport it in
02:57the end.
02:57Okay, so bear with us. We have a hydrogen producer, we have a hydrogen transporter,
03:03and then over here we have somebody who sells hydrogen as a fuel, and that is Erwin Penfornis.
03:12And you are the, let's see if I get this right, the Vice President of H2E, which I think stands
03:19for hydrogen energy,
03:22at Air Liquide, a French company, I take it.
03:27So, I'm going to try to make this a logical flow of the conversation.
03:30And we're talking, of course, about the promise of hydrogen.
03:33Okay, now I want to turn to the audience first.
03:35All right, and I want to ask the audience, see if you're with us right now.
03:39The answer has already been given, but see if you're with us.
03:42Who in the audience knows the chemical composition of hydrogen?
03:49Please raise your hand.
03:53So, I would say that is, of course, I can't ask each one of you to prove it,
03:59but I would say that that is about half of people here, right?
04:03Which also implies that the other half does not know the chemical composition of hydrogen,
04:08and I will tell you straight away, that's okay, because before, a little while ago, I also did not know.
04:16Okay?
04:16And so, the base that we're going to start from in this conversation about scaling up hydrogen
04:21starts at a very minuscule level, which is, what is hydrogen?
04:27Okay, I'm going to ask this question in a fire round of questions to everybody,
04:30and I'm going to start over there.
04:32Gauri, in just three seconds, what is hydrogen?
04:36Well, I just want to say that the place you are sitting in, actually Versailles, very close to this place,
04:43you had the first gas balloon that took off in 1873,
04:47and that's when hydrogen was discovered as a medium of transportation, and that's a fun fact.
04:54It's a medium of transportation, is what I'm going to take as your answer.
04:57Hydrogen medium of transportation.
04:58Erwin, hydrogen, what is hydrogen to you?
05:00So in two seconds, that's the fuel of the future.
05:04The fuel of the future, okay?
05:06We already have 1873, and I suppose 2073.
05:11Orly, what is hydrogen?
05:13Hydrogen is a key to climate neutrality, as long as it is produced without emitting CO2.
05:19A key to climate neutrality.
05:23Andreas, what is hydrogen?
05:24Yeah, I joined in with Orelia saying it is helping us to solve the challenge of decarbonization,
05:30while bringing its own challenges with itself, and bringing new problems that we need to solve together.
05:36Excellent.
05:37So now you've seen the answer of these four panelists here about what is hydrogen.
05:42Now, for the half of you in the room who are wondering what is hydrogen on a chemical level,
05:48because, you know, we didn't know yet, we haven't answered that question.
05:53So let me maybe just ask Andreas, very simple, what is hydrogen chemically?
06:01Well, it is the smallest atom we have, right?
06:03So it is H2, you know it from H2O.
06:07It's H2, smallest element we have.
06:10And typically it's gaseous when you meet it out there.
06:12I see.
06:13So I think this is very helpful, and this is where we're going to start the conversation.
06:17Hydrogen is H2, it's a chemical element essentially.
06:20It's usually a gas.
06:23And it is the energy source.
06:26Not the energy source, you said what?
06:28It's an energy carrier.
06:30Actually you can produce hydrogen from any energy feedstock.
06:34Of the future.
06:35In the past it was from natural gas typically, but now more and more from renewables.
06:40You generate this hydrogen and then you can use this hydrogen in various applications in industry.
06:46Right.
06:46Or in mobility, for example.
06:47So let's talk about that.
06:48And Aurelie, I want to start with you.
06:50Because you are actually working for a company that already produces hydrogen.
06:54What do you produce hydrogen for?
06:58At the moment we are only starting production and so it's for mobility.
07:04Mobility means to basically fuel certain types of transport.
07:09Yeah.
07:09But at the beginning and up to now, hydrogen has been mainly used in industry as a chemical
07:16for ammonia, methanol, or also to desulfurize kerosene, for example.
07:24And it's been widely used up to now in industry.
07:28Right.
07:29So I understand that.
07:31I think I understand that.
07:32It's been used to produce methanol.
07:34It's been used to produce ammonia.
07:36And it's used in industry.
07:37Why are we so excited about hydrogen?
07:43Right.
07:43Why are we so excited about hydrogen?
07:46Can you tell us why are you so excited about hydrogen?
07:49Well, for the green energy transition that we all are looking forward to in 2050, there's
07:58going to be a small part of it which is going to be very difficult to abate.
08:04And we, of course, as a global community, don't want to be using fossil fuels.
08:09And that's where hydrogen will come in to unlock and it's like a key to abate, to decarbonize
08:20the heavy industry like petrochemical, like fertilizer, and also play a role in long haul
08:28transportation, in aviation.
08:30So that's, it's really going to come in to decarbonize the, as it's called, the hard
08:36to abate sector.
08:37The hard to abate sector.
08:37Exactly.
08:38Okay.
08:38So we've got an entire energy world, right?
08:42Of which right now, what will you say?
08:44How much does come from non-renewable sources today in the world, energy?
08:48So if you're talking about...
08:50Percentage-wise.
08:51Well, let me put it like this.
08:53So we have fossil fuels that dominate.
08:56Dominate means 70%?
08:58It's 63%, but even the lexity, which is about 22% of the energy, that's only one-third
09:06comes from renewables.
09:08Two-third is still coming from...
09:09Right.
09:10So if you add it all up, energy production today is about, what do we say, four-fifths,
09:1680% comes from non-renewable sources.
09:19Now, we've heard today people talk about how all kinds of energy sources are going to help bring that 80
09:24% down to much lower.
09:27By 2050, that's the hope, that's the promise, that's the thing that the world is striving for.
09:32But what you said, Gauri, is that even as we make progress in getting to a renewable energy world, that
09:41there will be sectors which you've called hard to abate.
09:45And that basically means sectors for which using solar or wind or any other type of renewable energy is just
09:54not going to be very easy or feasible.
09:57Is that right?
09:58Absolutely.
09:59Absolutely.
09:59And that's where hydrogen will come into play, the key.
10:03And we think that it will be about 14% of the total energy mix in 2050.
10:11Wow.
10:11In 2050, hydrogen will be 14%.
10:14Yes.
10:15And how much is it today?
10:17Well, you do have hydrogen, but that's all gray hydrogen.
10:21Hold on, but just percentage-wise, 2% I heard?
10:26Sounds about fair?
10:27About that.
10:27About that.
10:28Okay.
10:28So hydrogen today is 2%.
10:30We want it to go to 14% because of the promise that it can basically reduce the energy, the
10:38hard to abate sectors in terms of their use of carbonized energy today.
10:43And you've already touched on the fact, but we'll get to that later, that to get from 2% to
10:4714% and to contribute to a good future, it will also itself need to change from so-called gray
10:55hydrogen to green hydrogen.
10:57Okay.
10:57Let's park that for a second because I think, you know, we're going to get confused if we go straight
11:01into that.
11:02Erwin, now over to you.
11:04Okay.
11:04Gary talked about hard to abate sectors that we're going to need hydrogen for.
11:09Tell me, what are those hard to abate sectors that you're working on to get them to use hydrogen?
11:16So typically, again, if we look at two big families, industries and mobility, on the industrial side, this is going
11:23to be everywhere where, as you said, you cannot do it with power directly.
11:28You're going to require heavy heat, for example, in steel making.
11:32Steel making, it would be on the industry side.
11:35Big industry.
11:36Chemicals.
11:37Pretty hard process and pretty hard to do that with solar energy.
11:42Absolutely.
11:43Absolutely.
11:44Impossible?
11:45It would be impossible, absolutely.
11:47Okay.
11:47So, steel making is one.
11:50Tell me a few other ones.
11:51So, if you stay in the industry, you would have the chemical sectors, the refining also, because today, as was
11:57mentioned by Aurélie, hydrogen is already used as a chemical to desulphurize, but you can do much more basically to
12:05decarbonize those operations and replace actually the natural gas by hydrogen.
12:10Okay.
12:11And then you're also working on transport.
12:14So, what does that mean?
12:16So, I'm going outside this conference center.
12:18I see a bus pass by.
12:19I see a truck pass by.
12:21Are those going to run on hydrogen in the future?
12:23Yeah, exactly.
12:24To make it simple, everywhere where you can directly electrify transport, like a passenger vehicle, you would want to do
12:31it, actually.
12:32It can be a suitable solution.
12:34But then you've got all the heavy mobility applications.
12:37Right.
12:37Because I've got an electric car.
12:38That's fine.
12:39We're on the road to electric vehicles.
12:41But for trucks and buses, which are very heavy, it would mean that they would have to use a battery,
12:49which is also super heavy, and therefore not practical.
12:54Absolutely.
12:55Very difficult to bring on board sufficient energy for the missions of those commercial vehicles.
13:00Long range trips, typically.
13:02Right.
13:02Very difficult to refuel them in a reasonable time frame.
13:07And hydrogen here is enabling, just to give an image here, a truck, you're going to refuel 80 kilos of
13:15hydrogen in 10 minutes.
13:17Basically like going to a fuel station.
13:18To do 800 kilometers.
13:20The amount of energy, the amount of power you're bringing there is equivalent to a 2.5 megawatt charger, battery
13:27charger.
13:27It would be huge.
13:28It's huge.
13:29It would be as big as a truck almost.
13:30A Tesla supercharger is maximum 300 kilowatts.
13:34Right.
13:34So you see how much power you're able to bring into a vehicle with hydrogen.
13:38And that's why.
13:38When you talk about steel, when you talk about heavy duty transport, that's where you're going to see the use
13:45of hydrogen exponentially increase from 2 to 14% in the next 25 years.
13:51Yeah, absolutely.
13:53But by the way, the jury is out on the role of hydrogen.
13:57We, and as part of the hydrogen council, we even see it up to 20, 22%.
14:03Because the more we progress in the energy transition, the more we see that hydrogen is this cornerstone.
14:09Very complementary to renewables and critical in those sectors, which are actually quite large.
14:15OK.
14:16Great.
14:16Everyone with us?
14:17All right.
14:18I think we're all with us.
14:19OK.
14:19Now, Aurelie, you know, we've got a huge demand here, right?
14:25You know, we're hearing Aaron, I could sell hydrogen to everybody.
14:28You know what I mean?
14:29Like I could sell it to every truck, every bus.
14:31And Gauri, who's overseeing it all around the world, she's like, you know, this is going to go everywhere.
14:36So you're making it.
14:38So why are you not already making much more of it?
14:40What's the problem?
14:41There are really several challenges to tackle, to bring electrolytical hydrogen at scale.
14:51OK.
14:52So electrolytical hydrogen basically is?
14:54Hydrogen made from electricity and water.
14:58OK.
14:58That's what we talk about mainly when we talk about fully decarbonized hydrogen.
15:05OK.
15:06I'm glad you bring it up because I said we were going to park the grey versus green hydrogen and
15:11now you're tackling it.
15:12Why?
15:13Because hydrogen, H2, in itself, H2 is H2, right?
15:17No problem with H2.
15:18There's no C in there.
15:19There's no O in there.
15:20There's no carbon in there.
15:21But to make this H2, the hydrogen, you've got a few different ways of making it.
15:30And today, 90%...
15:33More than 90% is made out of natural gas or out of coal, so out of fossil fuels.
15:41Releasing...
15:41Releasing CO2 when you make it.
15:44When you make it.
15:45There is no CO2 within the molecule.
15:48The hydrogen molecule, when you burn it, it doesn't emit CO2.
15:53But if you produce it with emitting a lot of CO2, then it accounts for...
15:59Right.
15:59But basically, we're back to square one.
16:01Yeah.
16:02And today, we are at that stage because the hydrogen that we make, we actually make it by releasing CO2,
16:08which is pointless.
16:09Exactly.
16:10Because the whole promise that we talked about was if it was a decarbonized way of making energy.
16:16So, you're now working on a first challenge, which is making sure that you make hydrogen not by releasing CO2
16:25in the air.
16:25That's the gray hydrogen, okay?
16:28But with electrolysis, is that right?
16:31Electrolysis, which is essentially making it with electricity and water, something like that?
16:37Yes.
16:37That's exactly it.
16:38You take electricity and actually, with electricity, you release from water, which is H2 and oxygen.
16:51And so, you release hydrogen and oxygen when you make it.
16:55And so, you're working on that.
16:56How's that challenge going?
16:58Are you managing to do that?
17:01Actually, electrolysis has been known for a while, but it's been used mainly at small scales.
17:08And so, at the moment, there is a scalability challenge.
17:13So, the first challenge you have is the scale green hydrogen production.
17:17Yeah.
17:18And what's the problem?
17:19If it's already been done, this is not like the fusion energy we've been talking about 60 years,
17:23and we basically just have one successful small scale test, you said it already exists.
17:29We already do this.
17:29Is the problem what?
17:30That it's too expensive?
17:32Is that the problem?
17:33Oh, it's another key challenge to solve.
17:36It's to reduce the hydrogen costs.
17:39And so, it means the investment in the electrolysis, but it's also linked with the electricity costs that will account
17:48for two-thirds of the total cost of hydrogen.
17:52Two-thirds, yeah?
17:53Yeah, two-thirds, yeah.
17:55So, how, I mean, is this working out for you?
17:58I mean, are you managing to bring the cost of hydrogen production down?
18:03Actually, the whole industry is working on that, and there are electrolysis manufacturers that are actively working on building up
18:13larger products,
18:14on optimizing the balance of plants around those electrolysis.
18:21Okay.
18:21So, that challenge, it's a big challenge, but you're working on it, the whole industry is working on it, and
18:28it's on the right track.
18:30Yeah, it is, but that's why everybody, or so many industries are involved in this.
18:37But there, in order to increase the scale, you need to invest in those technologies, and at the moment, to
18:46make these investments possible, you also have to help those technologies.
18:51And so, it's also a matter of public policies just to help start the industry.
18:56Public policy, right?
18:56We need public policy.
18:57This is something that I've seen in many of the questions that we've talked about on green energy, the energy
19:03transition, which is you've got these technological challenges.
19:06You've got these cost challenges.
19:08A whole industry is working on solving it.
19:10But at the end of the day, Gauri, I've got to come back to you, because you've got to steer
19:16the policy makers, and essentially, we've got to get that cost curve down.
19:20So, that means you've got to bring in some regulation to subsidize green energy production or to penalize carbonized energy
19:29production.
19:29Is that, is, are you working on that?
19:31Are you doing that?
19:31Are you doing that?
19:32Absolutely, Peter.
19:33And I think, you know, one of the big challenges is, as Aurelia had said, that you need electricity, and
19:41electricity at affordable cost and at cheap cost.
19:44Right.
19:44And that electricity also needs to come from renewables.
19:48And if we are actually going to get to, you know, where we want to be in 2050 with 14
19:54% of hydrogen, you will need 21,000 terawatt hours of renewable energy.
20:01Now, to put that in context.
20:03Yeah, please do.
20:03It is what the world is consuming today.
20:07So, it's absolutely huge amounts of renewable energy that is needed for hydrogen production, but it's also needed at very
20:15low cost to make it viable.
20:17Right.
20:18And to meet the challenges that Aurelia is talking about.
20:20But what we just heard from Aurelia was...
20:22You need public policy.
20:24Absolutely.
20:24That's right.
20:24So, I think the biggest role that governments need to play is to create a market.
20:31And that is what will get the industry all, you know, all working together.
20:36Right.
20:36But they're working on the market.
20:37And the question is, what does the policy need to do?
20:39No.
20:39So, the market is that they have to create the demand, the incentive for where it's going to get used.
20:45So, for example, you know, you have governments doing two very different things to create the market.
20:52For example, in the US, they've actually gone on the supply side.
20:56Right.
20:56By saying we'll give you X amount of dollars for every kilo of hydrogen.
21:01That's right.
21:01But there are other countries that are saying, well, if you produce green hydrogen, our fertilizers, our petrochemical industries will
21:11use it to produce green...
21:13Right.
21:13That's on the demand side.
21:15And so, you're basically working with governments like the United States one to implement those policies, whether on the supply
21:21side or on the demand side.
21:23Right.
21:23Basically helping the market to get to the level where it needs to go.
21:27And Oralee can produce hydrogen and then sell it.
21:30Now, you might wonder at this point in the conversation, Andreas, you know, it kind of seems like we got
21:38it all figured out here.
21:40So, I won't ask why you're here, but why is your company part of this equation?
21:46What's the problem that you're solving?
21:47Yeah, I think what we have heard is that we need massive amounts of hydrogen, right?
21:51So, if you talk to the European Commission about hydrogen, they say every second molecule that we are consuming in
21:57Europe or will be consuming in 2030 needs to come from outside of Europe.
22:02So, we somehow need to import it from the areas where it's cheap, where we have cheap electricity, like the
22:08MENA region, like the US, South America.
22:11People are talking about Australia.
22:12I'm not sure if that's suitable for Europe.
22:15Is that a fact? Does it have to come from outside of Europe or is that an economic reality?
22:21What makes that hydrogen would have to come from outside of Europe?
22:24Well, we are trying to do nothing less but decarbonizing everything, right?
22:29So, that means everything, all the energy that Europe is importing via gas from Russia, for example, right?
22:35We had that quite recently and it was a big shock for Europe.
22:39But also, liquid fossil fuels, you're trying to replace that by renewables, right?
22:46That's right.
22:46So, it's either renewable electricity or hydrogen that we need to do.
22:50So, we have had the need in Europe to import energy in massive amounts and we will need to do
22:57so in the future.
22:58Of course, people are investing and EDF is investing into new power generation, France is building nuclear power plants and
23:08so on, but it just is not enough.
23:10Everything we can do in Europe needs to be doubled by the rest of the world that we can import
23:15that energy and keep the industry that we have that is the source of our wealth in Europe.
23:19Right. So, if I understand correctly, you're basically saying, if you're looking on a global scale, we can produce the
23:25hydrogen that's needed globally, but also for Europe.
23:30But if you're looking on a European scale, it's pretty hard and costly to make hydrogen maybe in the Paris
23:36region, better to go to the Mediterranean region, for example.
23:41Or where are you making hydrogen?
23:42Actually, we will need both. Actually, we will produce hydrogen locally, wherever possible, wherever we have decarbonized electricity available.
23:53And for example, in France, since we have our nuclear fleet, but also our renewable power with hydropower, PV and
24:03offshore wind, then we can produce it directly without importing it.
24:09But that's not true. It's not enough. It's not enough. In some other countries, for example, in Europe, in Germany,
24:17they already have a high stake just getting rid of their coal plants today.
24:23And so, the renewable electricity they will produce will be mainly dedicated to replace the existing coal plants. And then
24:34they will need to import hydrogen.
24:35You still need to import. And so, that's where you come in, Andreas, because the role that you play with
24:41LOHC technologies is basically to transport H2 hydrogen that's made somewhere else, and you bring it somewhere else. Is that
24:52right?
24:52Yeah, that is correct. And there's just a handful of technologies that you can use for long distance shipping, right?
24:58So, people potentially have heard of making ammonia out of it and then cracking it up again.
25:02There's other technologies. But we believe that LOHC is a very good solution, because what you're doing is you bind
25:09the hydrogen to that liquid, and then you can reuse the entire fossil fuel infrastructure that you already have to
25:17get it where you need it.
25:18And then you have another plant where you split it up. So, basically, you're just building two plants and you
25:24reuse ships and tanker trucks, storage containers, everything that you already have and that people have already invested in, right?
25:31You carry that over to the new energy era.
25:33Sure. Okay. So, I want to go back for a brief second to the beginning of our conversation, and now
25:38we all know that hydrogen is H2. Now, H2 is just that, but it essentially is what? It's a gas?
25:46Yes, exactly.
25:47And that means that it's hard to transport as such. Is that right?
25:51The smallest atom we know, right? So, it has just one proton, and so it can tunnel through walls and
25:59so on. So, it's very hard to handle. So, you either need to cool it down very much to minus
26:04250, 70 degrees, right?
26:07And then it becomes liquid?
26:08Then it liquefies, right? And then you can pressurize it in containers and keep it cooled. Or you need to
26:12find other ways to transport it.
26:14Okay. Otherwise, it just flies off in the atmosphere, and then you didn't help the climate, you just lost energy.
26:20Right. And what you do, to be clear, is you take that H2, the hydrogen, you put it together with
26:25an existing liquid, which can be pretty much anything, or what do you use?
26:29Well, it's a special kind of liquid. It's a hydrocarbon, so it's very similar to diesel from its formula structure,
26:35but it's an existing fluid that has other uses than using it.
26:39You're not burning, of course, that diesel or anything, you're just binding hydrogen to it for the purpose of transport,
26:45and then when you get to the destination, you just take it out again. Is it as simple as that?
26:50Exactly. So, you have a plant, it's again a chemical reaction, right? You take out the hydrogen, and then the
26:56liquid you have left over takes the same ship it came in, goes back, is rehydrated, we call it, right?
27:04So, you put hydrogen in, rehydrogenated, and then it is a circular economy, right? So, you're not losing the carrier
27:10liquid, but it's a very efficient and very cheap solution, because you have a circular system.
27:15Right. Now, I think we've solved it, right? We started at the very beginning of this journey, and we said,
27:23what's hydrogen? What's the problems of hydrogen?
27:25And then we talked about the challenges, cost, transport, and we solved it, all right? So, do you all go
27:31home now? Do you all go and have a drink or some food, or is there anything else that we
27:37need to know early?
27:38You know, that's it? We're done?
27:39No, we really need to go on innovating on hydrogen to look for the most efficient technologies, for example, regarding
27:49electrolysis. It's well known, but anyway, there are improvements, there are competing technologies, and we'll try to find the best
27:58ones, depending on the applications.
28:01For example, today, we use alkaline electrolysis, but we are working on also membrane electrolysis, and on high temperature electrolysis,
28:12so we can have better efficiencies, and then reduce the cost in the long run.
28:16Right, because of course, you know, we painted a very simple picture here, but the reality is, to go from
28:23where the cost of hydrogen is now, to where it needs to be, so that the market is competitive, and
28:29that it actually, you know,
28:31to fulfill its potential, there's a long way to go. You got to do a lot of experimentation with technologies,
28:37a lot of investments, a lot of production investments, and then you can get there, but it's not solved from,
28:42you know, in the 20 minutes of this conversation.
28:45No, exactly. It's really key in the end, but it still is a costly solution, and we really have to
28:54work on the technologies and the costs.
28:57Aurelie, so what are you doing on your side? You're investing billions into that, or what's EDF doing?
29:04EDF is investing in new projects, but it's building those new projects and bringing also its capability in engineering, and
29:18it is bringing also low-carbon electricity to those projects.
29:22So, it means renewables in some areas of the world, and it means network electricity in France.
29:29Yeah, hard work, different projects. What does it add up to? What's the investment that you make, what you're saying,
29:35in hydrogen?
29:37No, at the moment, we are only starting investing.
29:40Starting, okay. So, you know, I love it when, you know, I asked the question twice, is there a number?
29:45You can't share it, right?
29:47No, because, no. Actually, we know that to get to our targets, several billions of dollars of euros will be
30:00required, but actually, it's projects that are built with several partners, the producers, the off-takers, etc.,
30:09and so, in order to share those costs during this ramp-up of the technology.
30:15I got it. Okay. Do you have any questions for anyone at this panel? Because, I mean, like, this is
30:20important.
30:20I mean, you're doing fine on your own. Do you need support from the regulators? Do you need money? Do
30:24you need clients? Do you need partners?
30:28What's your biggest need right now?
30:29At the moment, I think, for many players, but maybe you can add on that, we need regulatory certainties in
30:40order to make sure that investors can invest on those projects, and that's the key step.
30:46And that you get that return that you need on that cost horizon.
30:51Gauri, is this happening? I mean, like, we've seen, of course, big laws in the United States, but I think
30:58that the biggest market for hydrogen, if I'm not mistaken, I'm going to look at the three of you, so
31:04far, most investment's biggest market has been Europe.
31:08Concerns are, well, concern? Is it really a concern that the U.S. is catching up, that they're throwing a
31:12lot of money at this?
31:13I mean, like, is it good that you see the U.S. now putting a lot of public money in
31:17this? Should the answer of Europe be to do the same? Is that what we need?
31:22So, I think it's a good thing that you have the U.S. putting in money, and it's a good
31:29thing that there's a lot of demand, which the governments have said in EU that they would need more green
31:35hydrogen,
31:35because at this stage, if you want investors to come in, they need long-term visibility.
31:42Right.
31:42They need, you know, a visibility of 20, 25 years in terms of where is the demand going to come
31:49from, and that's when they will put the money in.
31:51Right.
31:52So, I think the one other challenge that all the governments and stakeholders are working on is to get the
32:00standards right, because once you have the standards there.
32:05What standards?
32:06So, standards on what counts as green hydrogen.
32:10Okay.
32:10So, once you have that, then you can have, you know, trade also happen, because there will be some trade
32:17that will happen.
32:17And, you know, right now, I think the focus is for the ecosystem around hydrogen to come together, which means
32:26you have industry that wants to do, wants to be able to produce hydrogen.
32:33Use hydrogen, but they have to make sure it comes from a clean source.
32:36Clean source, exactly.
32:37Right.
32:37Now, and they have to make sure, of course, that there's international standards.
32:41If they get their hydrogen from somewhere else, Andreas brings it over to them.
32:44And, you know, they need to know it reliably comes from a clean source of energy.
32:48Now, Gary, I'm going to ask our audience, because I know that, you know, we've got, we've went from a
32:52very simple question.
32:53I just want to ask one more question to the audience, okay?
32:55And then I'm going to ask the same question to all of you.
32:59We talked about green hydrogen and gray hydrogen, okay?
33:03You all heard about that.
33:05I'm going to tell you just this bit of information.
33:07There's more colors of hydrogen, okay?
33:10There's more colors.
33:11Green hydrogen makes from electrolysis.
33:14Gray hydrogen comes from carbohydrates.
33:16There's more.
33:17How many more hydrogens do you think there are?
33:20Do you think it is, do you think it is two more, five more, or ten more?
33:26Who thinks it's two more colors of hydrogen?
33:28Raise your hand.
33:30Okay.
33:31Who thinks it's up to five more colors of hydrogen?
33:34Raise your hands.
33:36And who thinks up to ten more colors of hydrogen?
33:39Raise your hands.
33:41Any takers for more than ten colors of hydrogen?
33:45More than ten colors of hydrogen?
33:46Yes, we've got a few.
33:47Now, I'm going to turn this back to you guys.
33:49How many colors of hydrogen production are there?
33:52Andreas?
33:53Well, it's hard because there's no regulation on really putting that in words, but I would say it's between five
33:59and ten.
33:59Five and ten.
34:00So, we talked about gray hydrogen and green hydrogen, but in reality, there's a lot more colors of hydrogen.
34:06Yeah.
34:07I think sometimes we need to try to simplify a little bit the topic.
34:12Indeed, you've got natural hydrogen and so on, but you really have renewable, which is a green one, and blue,
34:20which is made of fossil fuels with carbon capture.
34:23And I just wanted to complement also what was said before, because we need to accelerate the production of renewable
34:29hydrogen, but we see that the pace at which we need to do it is so high that we have
34:35the risk to fail and not be able to develop this market at the right pace.
34:39So, it's very important also to push, at the same time, this carbon capture technology enabling to access very large
34:46quantities of low carbon hydrogen in this coming decade.
34:50Right.
34:50Because, you know, like me, the clock is ticking, and we need to be able to scale all this energy
34:56transition in a very fast manner.
34:58Thank you.
34:58It is ticking indeed the clock.
35:00I know that we have not solved the entire hydrogen challenge today, but I hope that all of you have
35:06learned something about hydrogen, about the challenges around hydrogen, the realities of hydrogen, and the promise of the future of
35:14hydrogen.
35:14I want to thank all of the panelists that have joined us here today.
35:17It was really a wonderful conversation.
35:18I think we learned a lot.
35:20And I want to thank all of you participating in this conversation and listening to our speakers.
35:23Thank you all.
35:25And on to the next one.
35:29Thanks so much already.
35:54Thanks.
35:55Thanks.
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