- il y a 2 jours
The Decade of Design
Catégorie
🤖
TechnologieTranscription
00:00Thank you for joining us. This is my second day at VivaTech. I hope everyone's having a great experience here.
00:06It's fantastic to be so live with so many people once again. Dylan, welcome to France. Welcome to VivaTech. It's
00:13a pleasure to be up here with you.
00:14Thank you for having me and great to see you all. Good morning.
00:18Everyone's awake now. Everyone's had their coffee. So I'm excited to dive into the story of Figma, talking about this
00:27concept of the decade of design. But I thought we'd start on the personal side first, because you've had a
00:33pretty unconventional journey as an entrepreneur, even by American standards, but particularly by French and European standards. So can you
00:41just introduce yourself a little bit and talk about kind of your early days as an entrepreneur?
00:47Sure. I'm Dylan, CEO and co-founder of Figma. I think what you're referring to is just the path to
00:53Figma. So I was an intern before I was CEO, and interned at Flipboard, O'Reilly Media, LinkedIn, and ended
01:03up dropping out of college after spending two and a half years there studying computer science and math.
01:07And your parents were pretty excited about that?
01:09You know, they were a little bit skeptical. My parents were a little freaked out that I was dropping out.
01:18I think that it helped that I was part of the Teal Fellowship, and there's sort of a structured program
01:23around it.
01:24And they met other people that received the same fellowship, and they were far more impressive and way smarter than
01:29I was, and they made me look good by association. So that was good.
01:34And from there, I mean, well, looking back on it, what was that, a decade ago, a little bit more?
01:39Literally a decade ago. In August, it's a decade.
01:41So in hindsight, that was the right decision that put you on the path to where you are today?
01:46So, yeah, I think everyone has their own path, and some people, you know, that's the right thing to go
01:53through university in four years at the same time.
01:56For other people, maybe, better to do it in a piecemeal fashion, a little bit at a time, go into
02:02industry, go back into academia when the time's right.
02:05I think it's right to just be a lifelong learner, and I don't see any reason why you should ever
02:11stop learning.
02:12So for me, it's not about being anti-school or anti-education. It's more just I got really excited about
02:18the timing for what we were doing with Figma.
02:20I saw an opportunity with my co-founder around WebGL, graphics, and design tools, and creative tools, and wanted to
02:27go after that opportunity right then.
02:28I thought I couldn't wait.
02:29Okay, and we're going to dig into that a little bit more in a second, but let's put some more
02:34context around that.
02:36We're going to talk a bit about this idea of the decade of design.
02:40So let's start there.
02:42What does that mean, and what is kind of going on on a large scale that's sort of shifting, in
02:49your mind, the way people are thinking about the role of design in products and services?
02:54Yeah, so I think if you kind of rewind, we're in 2022 right now.
02:59If you go back to 2012 with me, back then, you know, the cloud is becoming a thing.
03:05We've gone from managed servers and data centers to AWS.
03:11We've gone from box software at the market to app stores with the iPhone.
03:18Developer tools are improving.
03:20And as all these things are happening, the value is going up the stack.
03:25It's more important, it's not just to build software, but it's also really important to make it really well designed.
03:31Okay, now fast forward a few years.
03:32You have neobanks disrupting the financial industry.
03:37All parts of society, if you make software well designed, incumbents are no longer keeping pace.
03:44And we're seeing basically all these different organizations using design as a competitive advantage.
03:51And I think that trend is only amplified.
03:54So for example, just to give some numbers to it, we looked at IBM and we talked with IBM a
03:59few years ago.
03:59In 2012, IBM was one designer to every 72 engineers.
04:06In 2017, five years later, they were one designer to every eight engineers across the organization.
04:13And on mobile, they were one to three engineers.
04:16So a huge shift.
04:17Now we're seeing about a target ratio, I'd say, one to six.
04:21One designer to every six engineers across most companies.
04:25And even the most legacy companies, the biggest incumbents, they are trying to invest in design because they realize if
04:31they don't, they will be disrupted.
04:34It's super important if you want to remain modern, if you want to make sure that people love you as
04:39a product and as a company.
04:40Yeah, and that's interesting because it intersects a bit with the conversation I had up here yesterday about consumer experience,
04:46consumer journey.
04:47And, you know, there's a strong consensus that the bar and the expectations of those end users, whether they're B2B,
04:55B2C, whatever combination, have really elevated in terms of what they expect from that experience and the design element of
05:03that.
05:04Yeah, I think that's a great point because also going back to 2012, when we started Figma, you had apps
05:09like Facebook and Gmail and all these consumer applications that were really well designed.
05:15But all the other software was maybe not as well designed.
05:19And then the consumer expectations got elevated.
05:22You started going to work.
05:23You started to interact with your bank.
05:24And you went, why is this not as well designed?
05:28Why is my experience not so great?
05:29And as that happened, consumer expectations were raised and they went where the design was better.
05:35And then that's vital for those customers, I mean, for the businesses because there's a lot at stake if they
05:42don't, if you go, again, whether you're a business or consumer and you don't have an experience you like, if
05:47it's not fluid, if the design's not pleasing, you are at a big risk of losing that attention very quickly.
05:53Exactly.
05:54And then what happened from there is all these businesses started to hire a lot of designers.
05:58And all the people at these businesses started trying to figure out how do designers work with engineers and product
06:04managers and marketing better.
06:06And so that's what Figma was trying to solve.
06:08In addition to making just a really amazing design tool and platform to make it so you can go from
06:13idea to design to code, we also tried to make it so that you could be more collaborative.
06:18And so we brought everyone onto the web.
06:20We made a cloud-first tool with multiplayer editing just like Google Docs.
06:25And that way everyone could participate in the design process.
06:28Because I think, you know, when we started Figma, a lot of people thought of design as they cut out
06:33lipstick on a pig.
06:34It was how do you make, you know, you go through this whole process of building software, and then how
06:39do you make it pretty at the end?
06:41And that's not design.
06:42Design is all the way through, you have to be thinking about every detail of the user experience.
06:47And if you can do that efficiently, if you can involve a lot of perspectives from the team, then you
06:52end up with a better result in the end because you've been able to include more viewpoints in the process.
06:57And let me just emphasize something you're talking about.
07:00You guys made a specific decision in terms of developing Figma that it was not going to be a downloadable
07:07app, that it's something we do in the browser to do just what you're talking about.
07:12How obvious was that decision when you made it, or was it something that kind of evolved as you were
07:18iterating on the product?
07:20Yeah, my co-founder and I grew up with Google Docs.
07:23And growing up with Google Docs, I think we realized that this was a superior technology.
07:28You know, I can send you a link, and you can always access a source of truth.
07:32It's always up to date.
07:34And in addition to that, you can edit with people in real time.
07:37So you don't just have to be async.
07:39You can also be synchronous.
07:40And so we thought it was pretty obvious.
07:43When we asked people early on in Figma's journey before we went and spent like a year building multiplayer editing
07:50for design tools, which hadn't been done before, it was not as obvious to them.
07:54I think designers had a self-perception that they were kind of the genius in the corner.
07:59And a lot of creatives wanted to kind of be in the corner, do the work, come out, do the
08:04big reveal.
08:05Everyone goes, ooh, ah.
08:07And after that, you know, you kind of walk away and go back to the corner again.
08:12And so when we shipped Figma back in 2015 in closed beta, some of the comments we received were, one
08:19was, if this is the future of design, I'm changing careers.
08:22Another comment was, a horse, sorry, a camel is a horse designed by committee.
08:29And so there's this perception of the more people you include in the process, the worse the result is.
08:34And I think that we actually now have seen a lot of examples that show that's just wrong.
08:38And the more people you include, the better the result is.
08:41But maybe that was counterintuitive at the time.
08:42And that's why people were reacting that way.
08:44Well, you hit on an interesting dynamic there because I think we've all experienced this where you're at a company
08:50and someone shoves a new tool in front of you and says, okay, here, start using this thing.
08:56And the way the hierarchy, the way teams are organized, the way the company works isn't really designed around that.
09:03And so not because of the product itself, but it doesn't really get uptake.
09:07It doesn't succeed.
09:08So in terms of Figma, what do you see happening?
09:11Do you see companies understanding that they need to kind of, I don't know if reorganization is too strong a
09:17word, but sort of rethinking their processes, reimagining how they do that so it is more collaborative that all these
09:24people are participating?
09:25Absolutely.
09:26And not only that, but we see Figma spread a lot, bottoms up.
09:29And so in enterprise software, the traditional model was you go to the CIO and you convince the CIO, hey,
09:36buy my software and give it to everyone in the organization.
09:38And yes, sometimes Figma is driven top-down too, but most of the time people start using it on the
09:44individual level and they share it with other people.
09:47And then from there, it kind of builds in the organization until everyone goes, wait a second, we should standardize
09:51on this.
09:52It's a better workflow.
09:53It's going to save us time.
09:54It's going to save us money.
09:56Let's go all in on Figma.
09:57And so that's kind of the typical pattern we see for adoption of Figma in the organization, which is a
10:01contrast to 10 years ago and the way enterprise software used to be deployed.
10:05Well, and again, you intersect with another big megatrend that I see that it's sort of this, you see a
10:10lot of developer-led, user-led enterprise changes happening because in companies of different stripes, finding success, using that pathway
10:20as a tool to get into the enterprise rather than just knocking on the doors of every CTO or CIO
10:26to try to, you know, get the attention of someone who's getting a thousand cold calls or emails.
10:33In terms of then making that work, what are the keys in terms of getting those people to try it,
10:41building a community around it?
10:42What are some of the lessons you've learned in that regard?
10:45Yeah, absolutely.
10:46I think the key that's most important is to have a good product.
10:50And, you know, it took us a long time to get there, right?
10:53We started Figma in August 2012, and we didn't ship our close beta until December 2015.
10:59Our general availability release, where anyone could use it, was October of 2016.
11:04We didn't charge our first dollar until we were really confident people wanted the tool, and that was summer of
11:092017, five years after we had started.
11:12And now we're five years after that into being paid.
11:14And so I think that the way we kind of went about the product lifecycle was to constantly be talking
11:20to users, doing user tests, making sure we understood if our workflow was efficient enough, and trying to make it
11:27better and better.
11:28In terms of the community side, we've been doing everything we can to build a community around Figma.
11:32Not only are we making it so you can actually access a community in the product, so you can see
11:38resources that other people have shared, riff on them, and that way no one has to reinvent the wheel, but
11:43also doing user events.
11:44So, for example, a few days ago, we opened our office in Paris.
11:48Really excited to be here and to actually have a physical presence on the ground now.
11:52And as we opened that office, we also did a meetup, and we had a few hundred people come out,
11:59and it was just wonderful to be able to interact with the community in person again.
12:01Now that COVID is starting to wane.
12:04So, especially on the heels of the pandemic, it meant even more than ever.
12:09Yeah, well, welcome to Paris.
12:10Thank you.
12:11But again, that...
12:16See, I told you, everyone's going to be very excited.
12:19I'm excited.
12:22But again, you know, that's an interesting aspect that changing expectations, right?
12:27That those people want a different relationship with an...
12:31You know, your enterprise software kind of sounds kind of cold, but really, it's become much more personal, social, both
12:38in the use of the tool, but also the relationship between the developers, the users, and the company itself.
12:44They want to be kind of partners.
12:46They want to feel a connection to you.
12:47Well, not only that, but I think that the...
12:50When I think about the way we get input on how do we make sure that the roadmap is right,
12:54you know, we look at support tickets, we look at social media, we do research, quantitative and qualitative, but also
13:00just in-person conversation.
13:02It drives so much, and we get so much insight that helps us make the product better.
13:06And so I think there's a two-way relationship, and it really helps to do that.
13:10And so now when you're looking ahead, you know, we've talked about, again, at the beginning, this idea of the
13:16decade of design, is there just kind of this unstoppable momentum to this idea, or is it still a lot
13:23of education, educating customers, educating the community, or is it just, you know, the train is out, and it's going
13:32down the tracks, and nothing's going to stop it?
13:35Well, our goal at Figma is to make design accessible to everyone.
13:38And so I don't think we're there yet.
13:41I think that there's so much that we can all learn about design, design tools, creativity, and we all express
13:46ourselves visually.
13:48One thing we did to make it a bit more accessible recently was we introduced FigJam.
13:52FigJam is our whiteboard tool, and so you can basically use FigJam to ideate, to brainstorm, and I think the
14:00biggest thing about FigJam is we try to make it really fun.
14:02Because I think that if you can make it fun to be in this tool in this shared canvas, then
14:07more ideas come out, more people are able to contribute to the conversation, and sort of the ego goes down
14:13a bit.
14:13And so whether it's ideation, design, student production, I think the lines between designers and engineers are starting to blur
14:21a bit.
14:22And more people are going to be participating in design and visually communicating in the future as well.
14:27Yeah, and so that's changing that relationship with the developers at the company.
14:32I mean, are you finding that they're embracing that ship, that they're seeing the value of the design and the
14:37collaboration with maybe people they didn't historically work with?
14:41Or is that still a work in progress to kind of unlock the value?
14:45Absolutely, and I think also the best developers are also very good designers too.
14:50But yeah, I think that the back and forth is really important.
14:52And a lot of the great products that we see are the result of tight collaboration between designers and engineers.
14:59And also I'm seeing more engineers, more product managers actually going into Figma, becoming editors, and contributing to the design
15:06process as well.
15:07And it's really exciting to see that, although I think we also have a long way to go.
15:10And one thing we're trying to do to embrace that and to develop that is really to advocate for education
15:17as well.
15:17So in the United States, we just launched a partnership with Chromebook.
15:21And with that partnership, we're making it so that any school district can turn Figma on for all the users,
15:28all the students in that school district.
15:30Figma will just show up on their Chromebook.
15:32And it's all free.
15:33We're completely free for EDU, K-12, as well as university.
15:37And the goal is to make it so we can have a new generation of designers.
15:40But I hope that also there's people that don't call themselves designers will use Figma.
15:44And everyone can start to be able to participate more in this digital revolution we have.
15:48Because if you zoom out even further, our entire world is going from physical to digital right now.
15:52It's been happening for decades, right?
15:54It's not a trend that was just COVID.
15:55But it shouldn't just be people with fancy degrees or specialized training that are able to access this opportunity.
16:02It should be everyone in the world that has an opportunity to play in software, in design, in creativity.
16:07And I really hope that Figma can help enable that.
16:10And so with that widespread availability, have you seen any surprising, unexpected use cases emerge from that that weren't the
16:18sort of classic design team enterprise dynamic?
16:21Totally.
16:22I mean, we see so many cool use cases.
16:24Everything from, like, complex illustration to people trying to make 3D models to, I mean, Slack went down.
16:30People started chatting in Figma.
16:32We see people, I mean, I plan my wedding in Figma.
16:36We have people that design their apartments in Figma.
16:39But, you know, we're made as an interface design tool primarily.
16:42So I also think, though, when I look at FigJam, that the visual canvas is sort of the future of
16:46a lot of software.
16:48And if you think about a lot of our software, a lot of it's one-dimensional.
16:51Maybe not spreadsheets, but, you know, we kind of go down and list.
16:54And I think that in the future, being able to express yourself and explore in a two-dimensional, infinite canvas,
17:01I think that a lot of software will be re-architected around that metaphor.
17:04And so I'm excited to explore what that means, too.
17:05Okay, one last quick question.
17:07Let's do it.
17:07Back to the Paris office.
17:09We chatted briefly before we came up here about your view of the evolution of Europe.
17:15You've been coming here a lot for the last few years.
17:17But what's your take on how it's evolved since you initially started visiting France and Europe,
17:22the ecosystems, the startup environment?
17:25So much.
17:26I mean, I think just it's amazing to see.
17:29And I've only been kind of tracking for the past five years.
17:31So, you know, excuse me, I'm not to have the very long perspective.
17:34But I've just been so impressed, even over the last five years,
17:37how much the startup ecosystem in Paris has evolved.
17:40I look at Station F.
17:41I see all the companies that are evolving, the many, many unicorns now that are existing in the French tech
17:47ecosystem.
17:49And I think I'm just very bullish on France.
17:52I'm very bullish on Europe in general.
17:55When I look at Figma's numbers, we're actually growing in France at 170% of the rate that we're growing
18:01in the United States.
18:02So much faster in France than the U.S.
18:05and, yeah, I think the future is very, very bright.
18:08So excited to see what all of you do and hope that it will result in amazing things
18:13and wishing you all the best of luck.
18:15Okay.
18:16We're right on the button.
18:17Thank you so much, Dylan.
18:18It was a pleasure to chat.
18:19Thank you all for being with us.
18:20Thank you all for being with us.
Commentaires