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How Do NFTs Unlock Value
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00:00And welcome back, this is a marathon on Web3, a marathon because we're having four different sessions on different aspects
00:06of Web3.
00:07I'm Dan Sobovitz, I'll be your host for the next yet two sessions on Web3.
00:12So this morning we already spoke about blockchain and decentralization, and now we would like to speak about NFTs, non
00:19-fungible tokens, and I'm joined here on stage by John Karp.
00:23You are the organizer of the Non-Fungible Conference.
00:26I suppose the conference is fungible, but it's about non-fungible.
00:29Zoe Wei, on the other side, you're head of Binance Connect and Fiat Strategy at Binance.
00:35Sébastien Badeau, you are from Ledger, vice president of Ledger, which is a digital asset platform.
00:43And last but not least, Hugo Cassel, Dupré, co-founder of Obvious, which is a collective working on artistic uses
00:51of AI.
00:53So thank you all for being here today.
00:55It's really nice to have physical presence.
00:58I mean, it is a hybrid version.
01:00Some people are watching us online, so it's not only all the people that you see here, but it's packed.
01:04So there's a great vibe here at our venue in Paris.
01:08I'd like to start with you, John.
01:09So as I said, you're the organizer of the Non-Fungible Conference.
01:12I've been told that you discovered NFTs very recently, and that became your new thing.
01:17So maybe you can tell us how you got sucked into this world of NFTs.
01:22Yeah.
01:23I discovered NFTs like two years ago.
01:25So it's quite recently.
01:27But in this world, it's a lot.
01:30And at the very beginning, I didn't realize, you know, what I was doing.
01:34And then when I started, you know, it was just, you know, because I was curious, I was buying a
01:40land in the metaverse.
01:41And then, you know, when I realized what was going on, I realized that it was much bigger than just
01:47owning a digital asset, but that it was, you know, a revolution, especially an artistic revolution for my hand.
01:54Why a revolution?
01:55Because actually, you know, you can see that most of the people in this space now, they are rethinking, reinventing
02:03business models, how startups work, even democracy.
02:08And yeah, when you go into this space, you know, you start to realize that, you know, people in this
02:13space are thinking about the world in 10 years from now.
02:16So let's speak about one of that business models.
02:18And I'd like to turn to you, Zoe, from Binance.
02:20Can you tell us a little bit more about your work at NFTs?
02:23Maybe what Binance Connect is and what we can do with NFTs on Binance today?
02:30Yeah, sure.
02:31Binance is not just a crypto exchange.
02:33It's also the infrastructure provider for the blockchain space, including NFT.
02:38So from our side, BNB Chain, actually, you can sign NFT projects on BNB Chain and develop on that with
02:44the Binance support.
02:45On the centralized side, we have the Binance NFT platform.
02:48And I was part of that when, like, last year.
02:51So, and for Binance Connect, it's actually the fiat ramp tool we provide for the broader crypto projects and also
03:00traditional projects.
03:01So we run the Binance fiat for more than two years and the growth of Binance fiat become the largest
03:09fiat crypto exchange in the world in major currencies.
03:13And so we are packaging this capability to provide to a larger, broad audience, including we're talking with Ledger about
03:20this.
03:20And also we have integrated with several large players and will have more impact on that.
03:26Yeah.
03:26And NFT platform, we have a large variety of global artists, creators, and to launch their projects on NFT platform.
03:38Yeah.
03:38So you're one platform to trade NFTs.
03:41Are you actually competitors?
03:42Because you're also a platform where we can trade NFTs?
03:45No.
03:46So, I mean, first of all, I want to talk about the revolution part.
03:49So to me, the revolution is the revolution of ownership, right?
03:52Up until NFTs came along, the only thing you could own on the Internet was a domain name.
03:57Now you can actually own art, you can own music, and more and more, you can earn all sorts of
04:01creations.
04:02But also everything that you're going to be buying in the real world will have a digital component, and that
04:07will be an NFT.
04:08It's a revolution of ownership.
04:09It's a revolution of contract.
04:11It's the contract that's behind the smart contract that really matters.
04:13That's the big revolution that's going to change our lives no matter how.
04:17Ledger is a security company.
04:19What we do is we secure these assets.
04:22And we started by securing cryptocurrency.
04:25So you would buy it on Binance, potentially.
04:26Securing in what sense?
04:28So you have, I shouldn't be wearing it around my neck,
04:30but you have a hardware, a cold storage hardware wallet that allows you to never have your coins on-chain,
04:39meaning that it's you own them, and you're the only one who owns them.
04:42So it's a hardware?
04:44It's a hardware that you plug in when you have to do a transaction,
04:47meaning that you always keep your coins.
04:49They're not in Web 2, they're in Web 3, meaning that it's really off-chain.
04:55So it's really like you own the coins, and you own your keys.
04:58And I think what matters is that when we started, we started with cryptocurrency,
05:03because that's what existed back then.
05:05But as things are moving forward,
05:07people are really wanting to also secure all of their digital assets, including their NFTs.
05:12And as everything becomes tokenized in NFTs,
05:16it means that your whole life will have a token aspect,
05:19and you'll want to secure that as much as possible.
05:21So Ledger will be a way for you to secure your digital life, your digital self.
05:25I have a lot of follow-up questions on what you just said,
05:27but before I do, I'd like to turn to you, Sébastien.
05:30So Obvious is a collective of artists and enthusiasts who are creating art using AI,
05:37not necessarily NFTs, but also NFTs, correct?
05:40Exactly.
05:40So the idea is that I'm Hugo, and with two of my best friends, Pierre and Gauthier,
05:50we created Obvious five years ago.
05:52And so basically we are artists.
05:54We work together to create artistic visuals,
05:57and we do so by using artificial intelligence algorithms.
06:01So I have a PhD in this topic.
06:03And so basically surrounding this skill,
06:06we developed this artistic creation five years ago.
06:11And we have a physical production,
06:14and we also have an NFT production.
06:17And we're seeing some examples now.
06:19Maybe you can tell us what we're seeing.
06:20Yeah, so here you can see one of the artwork that we did some years ago.
06:24It's a Japanese stamp.
06:25So basically the way our algorithms work most of the time
06:29is that we input lots of different data,
06:32and then the algorithm is able to create new visuals based on this.
06:36And then we have the choice to...
06:37So that is a lot of successful art pieces that got popularity
06:40that are renowned by experts as good quality of art.
06:43And then the machine learning would find the patterns
06:46and create a new piece of art based on...
06:48That's one way to do it.
06:49So at first we reinterpreted artistic movements,
06:52and now we are more aiming towards creating our own visuals
06:57and trying to combine algorithms to have our own identity
07:00and to propose something new.
07:03And our message basically is to talk about
07:05how the way AI impacts our society.
07:08And so we have different types of way of expressing this
07:12through our artworks.
07:14Do you think we can have the same emotional experience
07:16when I see a piece of art by an artist,
07:18especially if I know the story behind Frida Kahlo or Van Gogh,
07:22and I know what they went through?
07:23Yeah, so we consider ourselves mostly as conceptual artists.
07:27And so that's something that...
07:29It's a bit tricky for us because if we are not here to tell our story
07:33and to kind of describe the work that we do
07:36and what the intention was behind,
07:38it's difficult for people to understand just based on the visual.
07:41But that's why I'm here to explain this type of stuff
07:44and try to convey an interesting message
07:46that can open some debates about how AI impacts us as a society.
07:51So it's not necessarily art as connecting the artist
07:53with the people watching it
07:55and in the eyes of the beholder, etc.
07:58Here it's basically the relationship between an algorithm
08:02and the original art that it was working on
08:05with an output of new pieces of art.
08:07What we usually do is that we make art for the brains
08:10and not only for the eyes.
08:12And so we try to have a connection with people
08:14that think the subject that we are tackling are interesting
08:17and we try to convey different perspectives and opinions on this
08:22and try to spark some debates.
08:23So for instance, we had one artwork sold at Christie's in 2018
08:26that made a lot of noise.
08:28It was a classical portrait
08:29and it opened a lot of debates around
08:31how you can use AI to create art
08:34and it's not autonomous, it's a tool.
08:36And so there's lots of discussion about this
08:38and it's a new artistic movement that we are pioneering.
08:42Maybe last question because you are kind of the exception here
08:45because you're not just NFTs, but I'm very intrigued.
08:48Have you had the art pieces which were produced
08:51by the AI algorithm analyzed by artistic experts
08:55or have you tried to make them guess
08:56which one was made by a human,
08:58which one was made by a machine?
08:59Yeah, so this is like kind of the first test,
09:02but what's more interesting is that we had lots of dialogues
09:05with art critics or art historians
09:07about how the artistic process can be impacted by your tool.
09:11So for instance, photography at first was not considered art.
09:15It was considered a technology that you cannot create art with
09:18and now we all accept that photography is an artistic movement on its own
09:22and we argue the same for AI
09:24and we try to make people understand this.
09:27Okay, to go back from AI to really the specific topic of NFTs,
09:31I'd like to ask all four of you,
09:32why do we actually need to disrupt the relationship
09:34between ownership and digital property?
09:37So you were saying before it's a revolution,
09:39but maybe John, you can come in.
09:41what was missing in the current system?
09:43I think Sebastian's example of real ownership,
09:45maybe you can take the example of video game.
09:47I use this example because it's quite simple.
09:50Right now, there is a really famous video game, Fortnite.
09:55People spent in 2021 $5 billion
10:02just to buy skins, wearable, T-shirts, masks,
10:07you know, just digital style.
10:09$5 billion.
10:10So it's reality, it's right now.
10:12They buy it, but they do not own it.
10:16You know, if they want to sell it to someone else,
10:19they can't.
10:20If tomorrow, Fortnite does not exist anymore,
10:24they don't own it, so they don't have it.
10:26If they want to bring it to another game,
10:28if they want to give it to a friend...
10:30So my skin at Fortnite, you would not consider it as an NFT?
10:32Which one?
10:33No.
10:34It's not an NFT.
10:35This is the current situation.
10:36What is it?
10:37You're not the owner of the digital asset that you are buying.
10:40Okay.
10:40You are just buying a service,
10:42but you're not the real owner.
10:43We know the concept of ownership for real life.
10:46When I go to Zara, I buy my T-shirt,
10:49I own my T-shirt.
10:50Tomorrow, Zara can close the door.
10:51I'm still the owner of my T-shirt.
10:53If I want to go on eBay to sell my T-shirt,
10:56I can do it.
10:57I'm the real owner of it.
10:59So this is the definition of an NFT?
11:01The fact that it's tradable, I can buy it,
11:03I can sell it.
11:03It's tradable.
11:03It doesn't exist in the physical world.
11:05Exactly.
11:05Exactly.
11:06It enables digital ownership.
11:09It works for video games.
11:11It works for art.
11:12It works for the metaverses.
11:14It works for music, for movies, for anything.
11:17Anything will be tokenized and potentially ownable.
11:20Okay.
11:21Let's talk about the F word, the fungible.
11:22I had to look it up.
11:23I'm not a native English speaker.
11:25Fungible is something that is tradable like a currency or like gold.
11:28Here, it's not fungible in the sense of what?
11:30It's the token that's not fungible?
11:32Or it's the actual...
11:32I think, you know, to be fair,
11:33this definition is a bit complex.
11:36And for me, maybe in a few years from now,
11:38we will not talk about non-fungible anymore.
11:40But just to talk about it...
11:41Because we're defining it, the fundamentals of what it is.
11:43Just to define it, basically, fungible is money.
11:46You know, it's something if you own a $100...
11:49It doesn't matter which dollars.
11:51You know, I can give it to you, give it to me.
11:53You can change it.
11:55It's the same value.
11:56And here, they're unique.
11:57They're unique.
11:58Art is non-fungible.
12:00When you have a designer who's doing a chair
12:02or something, you know, that is really unique,
12:04it means non-fungible.
12:05So that leads me, and I think it is still relevant,
12:07to how do we make sure it remains unique
12:08when it's all digital?
12:09How do you avoid duplication?
12:11I think...
12:12Well, it's the contract.
12:13So there's a contract behind the NFT
12:15that says this piece belongs to you
12:17or belongs to John, etc.
12:19And that's the revolution.
12:20The revolution is the code that's behind the image.
12:23The image doesn't really matter.
12:24Yes, you can do, you know, a JPEG.
12:26You can save it and say, it's mine.
12:28Except...
12:28And the contract is visible by everybody
12:31because there's a level of transparency as well,
12:33which is super new.
12:35What's happening when you compare the old art world
12:38and the new art world
12:39is that it's about, you know, provenance.
12:42Who owned it before?
12:43It's about ownership.
12:44Who owns it?
12:45Is it real?
12:45Is it not?
12:46You know, there's been a lot of issues
12:47with fakes and art in the past.
12:48Like, people have made face Roscoe
12:50and face fake Warhols, etc.
12:53Here, it's impossible.
12:54And then the last piece is transparency.
12:56Well, the third piece is scarcity.
12:59That's what makes art great.
13:00Like, there's only 16 Da Vinci paintings in the world.
13:03That's why they're, like, so incredible also.
13:05And then the last piece is transparency.
13:07And there is no transparency in the art world.
13:09If you go into an art gallery today
13:11and you're asked to buy something,
13:13nobody will tell you how much it costs.
13:14They're going to find out first about you.
13:16Are you going to give the art more power, more value?
13:19Whereas here, it's fully transparent.
13:21Okay, transparency I get,
13:22but let me challenge you on the scarcity
13:24because you manage some of the great pieces.
13:26Mona Lisa is hung not far away from here in the Louvre.
13:29There's only one.
13:30Supply is limited.
13:31Demand is large.
13:32Value goes up.
13:33Here, you're saying that the contract shows
13:35that I own a piece of art,
13:36but anybody can duplicate it.
13:37Why do I care about my contract?
13:39Why would anybody pay to buy the ownership for me
13:42if anybody can consume it?
13:43With traditional art,
13:44I want to have it in my living room.
13:46But the same goes for the Mona Lisa.
13:48You could have a copy of the Mona Lisa in your house.
13:50Everybody knows it's not the real one.
13:52Well, that goes back to my question earlier to Hugo
13:55about the emotional value of knowing
13:56that the artist actually made it
13:57and it's not a duplicate.
13:59And so basically,
14:00if the artist you like minted the artwork,
14:03so minting is the word for creating the NFT,
14:07if you know that the artist created this NFT,
14:11you have the proof that this artwork
14:13comes from the artist that you like.
14:17And so it's a way for you to certify
14:18that this artwork is a true of yours,
14:21for instance,
14:21or is a true of anyone.
14:24And so basically,
14:24it's a way to just be sure
14:27that you're owning an artwork
14:28from the artist that you like.
14:29But I believe at the end of the day,
14:31it's about owning the original.
14:34This is the point you have.
14:35You can have hundreds of copies.
14:36So originality has value in the digital world.
14:38The original has value everywhere.
14:40What is original?
14:41You know, I know a pretty good painter.
14:43He can reproduce exactly Mona Lisa.
14:44I can have it in my room.
14:46And it's exactly the same.
14:47And I will be happy.
14:48You can have great photographers,
14:50you know,
14:51from the early of the 20th century.
14:53You know,
14:54if you own the original,
14:55it's worth millions of dollars.
14:57If you have a copy that you buy in the museum,
14:59it's worth $50.
15:01It's exactly the same.
15:02It's exactly the same.
15:04It's just, you know,
15:04the one that has been the original
15:06and it's written for the Mona Lisa
15:08that the Musée du Lou
15:10own Mona Lisa
15:11at this place,
15:12at this moment.
15:12I mean,
15:13I'm provoking you,
15:13but the numbers are showing
15:14that you were saying before
15:15that there is a market for it,
15:16which I admit
15:17is difficult for me to understand
15:18why I would spend
15:19my hard-worked money
15:20on something
15:21that can be duplicated
15:22just to be able to say...
15:24There's another piece
15:25which is around community, right?
15:26So a lot of these,
15:28so not on the art side necessarily,
15:30but on the PFP projects,
15:31it's also belonging to a community, right?
15:33So if you look at like
15:34CryptoPunks,
15:35Board Apes,
15:35and so forth and so on,
15:36people want to belong
15:38to that community
15:38and that has value as well.
15:40They also give you the IP.
15:41So a lot of people
15:42who actually own these NFTs
15:43can use that IP
15:44to then do products,
15:46movies,
15:47and so forth and so on.
15:47So there's value in there as well.
15:49So let's indeed talk about
15:50other communities
15:50that are not going to say the arts.
15:52Two elements of this.
15:53So first,
15:54NFT is kind of self-proven thing.
15:56So for example,
15:57without NFT,
15:58you cannot prove
15:59any digital assets are yours.
16:00So maybe this is
16:01in a company system.
16:03Okay,
16:03I have an account,
16:04I open it,
16:04it's mine,
16:05but it's not really
16:06really self-proven
16:07because the other one
16:08cannot know this is yours.
16:09But actually with NFT,
16:11okay,
16:11I have a digital wallet,
16:13this address is mine,
16:14I have the private key,
16:15and this NFT in my wallet,
16:17that's mine.
16:18Everyone have no objection,
16:19that's yours.
16:20So this is called self-proven.
16:22So this is the first part.
16:23This shows this is mine.
16:25And then,
16:26yes,
16:26you can,
16:27if it's a picture,
16:28you can copy
16:28a thousand copies on that.
16:31But then,
16:32why is it still available?
16:34Then the platform itself
16:36is really important.
16:37And again,
16:38the community
16:38and also the origin.
16:40So basically,
16:41okay,
16:42I want to create an NFT.
16:44So I need a very famous platform
16:47like Binance NFT.
16:48So,
16:49okay,
16:49I'm a creator.
16:50You check,
16:51you do do the list on me,
16:52I'm a creator,
16:53and I create 1,000 NFTs.
16:56And okay,
16:57the platform,
16:58I'll say,
16:58okay,
16:58it's okay.
16:59So I will let you launch
17:01on our platform
17:01and you sell.
17:03So basically,
17:04on your own social media,
17:06you will say,
17:06okay,
17:07those are real NFTs.
17:08I will launch on this platform.
17:10And then,
17:11okay,
17:11you launch.
17:12And it's really easy
17:14to track things on blockchain
17:15as a first step.
17:16Then you can check,
17:17this is yours.
17:18And so,
17:19even if people want to copy that,
17:21it's easy to tell,
17:22okay,
17:22it's not yours.
17:23This is two layers
17:24to prove that it's a unique NFT.
17:26The third layer is
17:28beyond,
17:28it's just a picture.
17:30If I'm an artist,
17:31I give this out.
17:32It's not just,
17:33okay,
17:33this is my production.
17:35I have more utilities.
17:36I have more rights on that.
17:38So for example,
17:39usually say,
17:40okay,
17:40if you own this NFT,
17:42and I will have
17:43exclusive rights for you.
17:45So basically,
17:45I'll have some,
17:46maybe meetup,
17:47I'll have some more works
17:49to airdrop to you.
17:50So then more interaction
17:52in the future
17:53will be created
17:54through this mechanism.
17:55So I have to say,
17:56those elements
17:57will form a new
18:00business model
18:00for the future.
18:02Yeah.
18:02Let's talk about UX
18:03for a moment.
18:03So we heard that on Ledger,
18:04there's a piece of hardware
18:06that you have to use
18:07in order to identify yourself.
18:09On Binance,
18:09if I wanted to trade NFTs,
18:11if I'm a novice
18:12to NFT world,
18:12I'm now convinced
18:13by this panel,
18:14I go from VivaTech
18:15back home and I say,
18:16okay,
18:16this is where I want
18:17to put my money.
18:17There's huge inflation.
18:19The stock exchange dropping
18:20my future
18:20where I want to put my money.
18:21This is not a recommendation
18:22to anyone,
18:23by the way.
18:23I'm taking no responsibility.
18:24but if somebody wants
18:25to start making
18:26their first steps
18:27in investing in NFTs,
18:28how would it work
18:29with Binance?
18:30Okay.
18:30So very simple.
18:31So basically,
18:32you just go to the Binance NFT
18:34and you choose
18:35what kind of NFT you want.
18:37So basically,
18:37when you buy anything,
18:39you must make sure
18:40you want to buy this
18:41and you know
18:41what you're buying.
18:42So basically,
18:43you need to make sure
18:44after you buy this,
18:45okay,
18:46if you want to think,
18:47okay,
18:47the NFT will have value up,
18:48you say,
18:49okay,
18:49you make sure
18:50it's value down,
18:51you accept that.
18:52So then you just come
18:53and register an account
18:54and then you can just
18:55directly buy
18:55with either crypto
18:56or fiat on the platform
18:58and it's very easy
18:59and then you could trade it
19:00on a secondary market
19:01and to see if other people
19:03want to buy it.
19:04So that's very similar
19:05to e-commerce
19:06but with more transparency
19:09and the liquidity
19:10of the volume.
19:11So you're saying
19:12it's becoming
19:12more and more accessible
19:13because we did hear
19:14in the previous panels
19:14that one of the problems
19:15of blockchain technologies
19:17in general was UX
19:18and that many people
19:19didn't have the skills
19:19or the literacy
19:20of how to actually
19:21access this world.
19:22You're saying that on Binance
19:23from what both of you described,
19:24it sounds relatively simple
19:25at least at the technical level
19:26without understanding
19:28valuation of art
19:29which is very difficult
19:30in the traditional world
19:31as well
19:32but you're saying
19:32that access there
19:33is not really an issue.
19:34Yeah,
19:35I think as long as people
19:36are sure about this NFT,
19:38now we're creating
19:38a very easy way
19:39for people to buy
19:40and to store NFT
19:41and then if you have
19:43a lot of NFTs
19:44and you'll be familiar,
19:45you can go to Ledger
19:46to put in a code wallet
19:47but usually for the first step
19:48you go to a centralized place
19:50to create accounts
19:51but you give it NFT
19:53and then step by step
19:54for the mass adoption.
19:56Okay,
19:56what determines the value?
19:58So you were telling us
19:58with your pieces
19:59that were AI generated,
20:02you did show them
20:02to the artistic community.
20:05When you sell,
20:06how do you determine
20:07the value
20:07of what you're selling?
20:08So it just works
20:09exactly like the art world
20:12so basically
20:13you have some kind of
20:14if people are willing
20:16to buy your work
20:16for a certain price
20:17then it's a supply and demand
20:18auction.
20:20Yeah,
20:20yes,
20:20exactly
20:21and what I wanted to add
20:22about what we were discussing
20:24is that
20:24what types of NFTs
20:26what type of problems
20:28NFTs really solve
20:29so for digital artists
20:30there are simple problems
20:32basically there are lots
20:33of very skilled
20:35digital artists
20:36that were not able
20:38to sell their work
20:38in the past
20:39so I'm thinking about
20:40Miguel Chevalier
20:41or really great artists
20:43that always struggled
20:44to get into
20:45because of the intermediary
20:46they had to
20:47kind of sell
20:48a USB key
20:49or to sell
20:50a CD
20:51or something like this
20:52and you cannot
20:53really prove
20:54that you own
20:55the work
20:55and so that's
20:56a real big problem
20:57for the art market
20:58for digital artists
20:59and NFTs
21:00really solve that
21:01in a way
21:02that you can prove
21:03that I have an obvious
21:04it's certified true
21:06and so I do really
21:08own that piece
21:09and so that way
21:10NFTs really
21:11enabled digital artists
21:13to create their own market
21:14and there's lots of demand
21:15for this
21:15because there are lots
21:16of really skilled
21:17and there are lots
21:20of really great
21:21digital artists
21:22that can now
21:23sell their work
21:23and live
21:25and get to
21:26to live the artist life
21:28and continue creating
21:29because they can
21:30finance them
21:31so supply and demand
21:32you mentioned
21:33what else determines
21:34the value of NFTs
21:35so I mean
21:36outside of the value
21:37one thing I wanted
21:38to add on that
21:39is how important
21:40it is for artists
21:41of all kind
21:42like you know
21:43if you're a painter
21:45but if also
21:45you're doing music
21:46or movies
21:47and so forth
21:47and so on
21:48because what is broken
21:49in the current system
21:50is the fact that
21:51the take rates
21:52from the centralized
21:54platform
21:55is so high
21:56so Apple takes
21:5730% as we know
21:58on the App Store
22:00that's more than
22:01what the mafia takes
22:02right
22:03when the biggest
22:04company in the world
22:05has a higher take rate
22:06than the mafia
22:06we have a bit
22:07of a problem
22:07but it's even worse
22:09in other places
22:09right
22:10like if you look
22:10if you look at Spotify
22:11out of the 4 billion dollars
22:13that Spotify
22:13gives back to
22:14record companies
22:15every year
22:1686%
22:17goes to the record company
22:19only 14%
22:20goes to the artists
22:20what would prevent
22:21platforms from doing
22:22the same thing
22:22with NFTs
22:23I mean
22:23any platform
22:24finance
22:24I don't know
22:25how much you charge
22:25but in theory
22:26that would be great
22:27that would be great
22:27but I think
22:28what's going to be able
22:29to happen
22:30is like a direct
22:31relationship
22:31between the producer
22:33the creator
22:34and the person
22:35who's buying
22:36the actual product
22:37so we don't need
22:38the platforms
22:38well
22:39you're probably
22:40going to need
22:41I mean
22:41potentially not
22:42potentially it's
22:43going to go direct
22:43from at least
22:44big artists
22:45to the person buying
22:47but especially
22:47it's going to
22:48flip the script
22:49on who has the power
22:51right now the power
22:52and as John was saying
22:53he was talking
22:53about Fortnite
22:54tomorrow
22:55Fortnite decides
22:55that you don't
22:56own your stuff anymore
22:57you don't own
22:57your stuff anymore
22:58same thing with Spotify
22:58if you stop paying
22:59your monthly fee
23:02you don't have access
23:03to your playlists anymore
23:03even that Spotify
23:04and Google
23:05and Facebook
23:05all started as startups
23:06you don't think
23:07there's a risk
23:07that the platforms
23:08you're describing now
23:08would also become
23:09so big on NFTs
23:10that at some point
23:11they will be difficult
23:12to avoid
23:12no because
23:13the thing is
23:13because you have
23:14the ownership
23:15right
23:15at the end of the day
23:16it's yours
23:16that's the difference
23:17we're going to move
23:18from renting
23:19to actually owning
23:20it
23:20it's not closed ecosystems
23:20it's easy to
23:21take it out
23:22and then interoperability
23:24between platforms
23:25and then the second piece
23:26I wanted to mention
23:27which I think is really important
23:28is the fact that
23:29on resale value
23:31artists
23:31and this is super new
23:32and this is a technology
23:33that allows that
23:34artists will still
23:35take some money
23:36from that
23:36Warhol
23:37there was a Warhol
23:38that sold for
23:38I don't know
23:39like 180 million
23:40the other day
23:41like a couple of months ago
23:42the Warhol family
23:43or whoever
23:43owns the rights
23:44didn't get a dime
23:45from that
23:45their last owner did
23:47in NFTs
23:48the incredible thing
23:50is that
23:51the artist
23:51will still get
23:52a residual
23:53every transaction
23:53every single transaction
23:55getting royalties
23:56you were telling me
23:56that once they sell it
23:57it's not mine anymore
23:58yeah but you know
23:59this is what is really smart
24:00you know
24:01in the real life
24:02smart contract
24:02for a reason
24:03yeah
24:03it's smart contract
24:04in real life
24:05you have this
24:06invented in France
24:07called
24:09royalties for artists
24:10but you know
24:11so basically
24:12theoretically
24:12if my collector
24:14is selling my work
24:15to another collector
24:16a collector in Dubai
24:18selling to someone
24:19in Shanghai
24:20my gallery
24:21could come to the collector
24:23and ask for the money
24:24I own
24:25because
24:25I own some royalties
24:27on the artwork
24:28it's a theoretical right
24:30in France for example
24:32but
24:33it's not applied
24:34nobody pay that
24:36it's not possible
24:37to come to someone
24:38who sold the artwork
24:39and ask for the money
24:40here it's automatic
24:41it's in the smart contract
24:43from the beginning
24:43so all smart contracts
24:44it's always by definition
24:45so as an artist
24:47I cannot say
24:47that I'm selling the piece
24:48as a whole
24:49I'm always given
24:50every time there's a transaction
24:51you know
24:51you have a famous artist
24:52called Xcopy
24:53he sold the artwork
24:54for $100
24:55like three years ago
24:56and then Snoop Dogg
24:58decided to buy the artwork
24:59for $5 million
25:00and so the artist
25:01got like
25:03royalties
25:03for 10%
25:05so he got like
25:06$500k
25:07from this sale
25:08it's interesting
25:09because it's not only
25:09a technological change
25:11it's also a conceptual change
25:12of ownership
25:12actually it's a change
25:14it's a conceptual change
25:15of ownership
25:16and this is why
25:17it's a revolution
25:17in theory
25:18we could have it also
25:18in the real world
25:19it would just be more
25:20difficult to implement
25:20but we could say
25:21that an artist
25:21should always get a fee
25:22when their piece
25:24is being sold
25:24it's already implemented
25:26in the legal
25:27in the French law
25:29it's implemented
25:29it's just not respected
25:31because
25:31you cannot really trace
25:32who owned the artwork
25:33this goes back
25:33to the question
25:33of what is it coming to solve
25:35it's coming to solve
25:35this problem
25:36and people don't really
25:37want to pay this
25:38they just
25:39don't want to do it
25:40but if they're forced
25:41to do it
25:41because it's automatic
25:42then it just works
25:43yeah
25:44and at the end of the day
25:45so it's a revolution
25:46for artists
25:47because they got royalties
25:48because at the end of the day
25:50also they can send
25:51for the first time
25:52digital work
25:53you know
25:54the most famous example
25:54is Beeple
25:55who sold his artwork
25:57at Chris Streets
25:57for 70 million dollars
25:59you know
26:00this guy
26:00he was doing
26:01one piece of artwork
26:03every day
26:03for 13 years
26:04so he did create
26:0615
26:075,000 pieces
26:09actually
26:09and before NFTs
26:11when people came to him
26:12to say
26:13hey
26:13how things are going
26:14are you good
26:15into business
26:15he said
26:16I'm fine
26:17I will work
26:18on a video clip
26:19I will do some collaboration
26:22I will be hired
26:23for something
26:23he was not living
26:25as an artist
26:25and so for the first time
26:27digital artists
26:28are able to live
26:29you know
26:30from their art
26:31and also
26:32it's a last change
26:33collectors
26:34you know
26:35art collection
26:36I think you know that
26:37until NFTs
26:39it was reserved
26:40to
26:40actually
26:41a lot of rich
26:43nice neighborhood
26:44people
26:45you know
26:46who knows
26:46fine art
26:47and now
26:49you know
26:50it's a new culture
26:51new collector
26:52and
26:53thousands of new collectors
26:54came into the space
26:55and collecting things
26:57that make sense
26:58for them
26:58you know
26:59and so maybe
27:00it's a different culture
27:01maybe it's AI based art
27:02generative art
27:05all kind of
27:06programming based art
27:07actually
27:07that exist now
27:08and that talk
27:09to this new generation
27:10actually
27:11so there's
27:12if I could add
27:13one thing
27:13there's democratization
27:14which I think is important
27:15and back on the AI art
27:17I was listening to
27:18an artist
27:18who was talking about
27:19the fact that
27:20he has been doing art
27:21and this is like Beeple
27:22for years
27:22but using digital art
27:24he was able to express
27:25his vision
27:26in a way that
27:27he couldn't
27:28just with his hands
27:29so for a lot of artists
27:30it's also a way
27:31for them to really
27:31put what's in their mind
27:33onto like
27:34a digital canvas
27:35which they could do before
27:35digital art is a different thing
27:36than NFT
27:36I mean anybody can do
27:37digital art
27:38but then you would not
27:39be able to sell
27:39as an NFT
27:40yeah
27:40yeah okay
27:41I'm getting interesting
27:42questions on the
27:43digital platform
27:43I don't know if it's
27:44from people here
27:44in the room
27:45or online
27:45but one that comes in
27:47is expanding
27:48from the artistic world
27:49to other
27:50digital
27:51intellectual property
27:52I don't know
27:53Zoe if you see
27:54on Binance
27:54other forms
27:55of NFTs
27:56other than
27:57arts
27:57I mean you mentioned
27:59potential skins
28:00you're saying
28:00they were not NFTs
28:01but they could
28:02potentially be
28:03but do you see
28:04somebody's asking
28:04if governments
28:05are interested
28:05in switching patents
28:06into sorts of NFTs
28:08that would be
28:09also interesting
28:10if now patents
28:11would also
28:12trace back
28:12to the origin
28:13and keep paying
28:15royalties
28:15but what kind
28:17of other fields
28:18might actually
28:19jump on this train
28:20of NFTs
28:21yeah
28:21there are actually
28:22several
28:23I can give you
28:23examples
28:24so first
28:25for example
28:26music NFT
28:27so if you just
28:28like
28:28for example
28:29TraceZone
28:30have ever launched
28:31a series
28:32of other music
28:33like small pieces
28:34on our NFT platform
28:35so there's a mystery box
28:37you buy it
28:37and you own
28:38a very unleashed
28:39small piece of music
28:41and actually
28:42on NFT platform
28:44you could create
28:45co-create
28:46another music
28:47with TraceZone's piece
28:48so basically
28:49there's a TraceZone
28:50original NFT
28:50so you create
28:51your own music
28:52and you create
28:54a demo together
28:55so you two
28:56create an NFT
28:57third
28:57and this is
28:58a new NFT
28:59so this is
29:00what will be
29:00very interesting
29:01you can merge
29:01different NFTs
29:02yeah
29:02merge different NFTs
29:04create a new one
29:05and you can sell
29:06this new NFT
29:07and this is
29:08co-created
29:08with your favorite
29:09artists
29:10and this could be
29:11sellable
29:12it's set in
29:12the realm of arts
29:13yeah
29:14this is music industry
29:16so first
29:16the second
29:17is game
29:18so a lot of
29:19you see
29:20the word gamify
29:21is very popular
29:21so basically
29:22a lot of games
29:23put their equipment
29:24in the game
29:24and everything
29:24into NFT
29:25so basically
29:26they sell
29:27those NFTs
29:28on our NFT platform
29:30and it's like
29:31the trading volume
29:32is very high
29:32because people
29:33want to
29:34utilize
29:34those special
29:35equipment
29:36in the games
29:36so this is
29:37the second trend
29:38we see
29:38so you see
29:39a lot of
29:40like AAA
29:41game studios
29:42entering this world
29:43want to create
29:44more NFT
29:45and gamify
29:46based games
29:47so that actually
29:48there are more
29:48interaction
29:49between the gamer
29:50and the studio
29:51and actually
29:52the pie
29:52of gaming industry
29:53will be bigger
29:54because of
29:55this new mechanism
29:56so these
29:57are the two
29:58major ones
29:59so in terms
30:00of the NFT value
30:01actually I think
30:01there are four elements
30:03we need to
30:03very keep
30:04attention to
30:05so the first
30:06is the rarity
30:07so as we say
30:08the artist
30:08there are only 100 piece
30:10a small piece
30:11this is the first
30:11and the amount
30:13the second
30:14is actually
30:15utility
30:15so basically
30:17usually the creator
30:19will empower
30:19some utility
30:20to this
30:21for example
30:24tickets
30:24so you heard
30:25NFT tickets
30:26there's a news
30:27say Olympics
30:28will also use
30:29NFT ticketing
30:29so actually
30:30you use the NFT
30:32to enter into a stadium
30:33and this will
30:34actually
30:35to prevent
30:35fake tickets
30:37and actually
30:37will actually
30:38have a revolution
30:39in the ticketing industry
30:40and the third
30:41will be
30:42usually that's illegal
30:43no
30:43I mean
30:43you buy a ticket
30:44to a concert
30:44you're not supposed
30:45to sell it
30:45it can actually
30:47more easy to sell
30:48because
30:48it's an NFT
30:49you know
30:50you can easily
30:52check if it's
30:53authentic or not
30:54so
30:54you will not
30:57buy the fake ones
30:57so we said
30:57arts
30:58gaming
30:59music
30:59ticketing
31:00yeah
31:00and this also
31:02applies to
31:02merchandise
31:03and for example
31:04you can scan
31:05to see if this is
31:06the source of
31:07origin of tracing
31:08so basically
31:09each t-shirt
31:10will be
31:10NFT
31:11so those concepts
31:13are actually
31:13that's interesting
31:14so that brings us
31:14back to the physical world
31:15you were saying
31:16there would be
31:16some kind of
31:17what a QR code
31:17that sends me
31:18back to the NFT
31:19to see if the shirt
31:19is actually original
31:20yeah yeah yeah
31:21but then I could
31:22always copy the QR code
31:24or whatever it is
31:24I mean how do you
31:25identify a physical object
31:26and trace it back
31:27I think it's always
31:28the same thing
31:29from the thing
31:30it's what is the blockchain
31:31and so it's this big
31:33you know
31:35register
31:36in the internet
31:37notarial register
31:38I would say
31:38to make it simple
31:39where you can see
31:40all the transactions
31:41and you can see
31:42that you
31:43acquired
31:44this piece
31:45at this moment
31:45at this price
31:46to this person
31:47and nobody can say
31:48and so it's you
31:49it's your signature
31:49so the point is
31:51who you know
31:51it's about
31:52who is behind
31:53the signature
31:53but to go back
31:54to the original question
31:55about the way governments
31:56might be interested
31:56in NFTs
31:57I mean this has been
31:58a recurrent theme
31:59in the previous questions
32:00the previous panels
32:01also on Web3
32:03governments are often
32:04intimidated by it
32:05because that takes away
32:07from their ability
32:08to regulate it
32:09and control
32:09I mean when it comes
32:10to ownership
32:11let's take real estate
32:12for example
32:12I mean that's
32:13traditionally managed
32:14by the state
32:15so the person
32:16who sent the question
32:16here was suggesting
32:17that maybe
32:18intellectual property
32:19like patents
32:19for example
32:20governments can now
32:21put transition
32:22into NFTs
32:23what is your experience
32:24of the appetite
32:25of governments
32:26to regulate
32:26or jump on it
32:28or do a bit of both
32:29it's two different
32:30conversations
32:31regulation is one
32:32and they're definitely
32:33looking into it
32:33but that's a bit
32:34on the side
32:35but I think
32:35using the technology
32:36I think they're really
32:38interested in it
32:39and if you take
32:40the example
32:40of used cars
32:41today in the US
32:43if I sell you
32:44my used car
32:45I give you a piece
32:46of paper
32:46and I sign it
32:48and then you're like
32:49oh wow
32:49now this is my car
32:50we're in 2022
32:52I mean god damn
32:53this is ridiculous
32:54it's the same
32:54from art actually
32:55you know
32:56and I think
32:57this is
32:57for me
32:58it's already
32:59you know
32:59there's no question
33:00anymore
33:00you know
33:01for all this kind
33:02of proof
33:02of authenticity
33:03that are paper based
33:04you know
33:05some people
33:06are selling
33:06a fake
33:07artwork
33:08and a real paper
33:09a fake paper
33:10a real artwork
33:11it's a mess
33:12nobody understood
33:12what's going on
33:13especially in France
33:14I know people
33:14still pay their rent
33:15with checks
33:15which I thought
33:16didn't exist anymore
33:17so maybe the checks
33:18could also disappear
33:19with NFTs
33:20so which other fields
33:22do you think
33:23might be next in line
33:23to discover the potential
33:24here
33:25everything
33:25no but everything
33:27related to
33:27one big NFT
33:28it's true
33:29no you know
33:29everything related
33:30to ownership
33:31at the end of the day
33:32you know
33:33everything related
33:33to ownership
33:35you know
33:35you are a technology
33:36that is more safe
33:37that is unackable
33:39that is 100% transparent
33:40and that everybody
33:41can rely on that
33:42one chance to get through the questions
33:43is the originality
33:44how do we make sure
33:45when somebody
33:46adds new
33:48digital assets
33:49on the internet
33:50that they're actually
33:51the original
33:52so before they
33:53go on the ledger
33:54before we can trace it
33:55but actually the creation
33:56of a new piece
33:57because you were telling me
33:58before
33:58you can duplicate it
34:00but there will always be
34:01the smart contract
34:02but the first one
34:02who actually
34:03uploaded the piece
34:04how do we know
34:04that they're the original
34:06producer or owner
34:06it's the minting process
34:07right
34:08it's actually
34:08when I distribute it
34:09I actually attach
34:10a smart contract
34:11and that smart contract
34:12says this is piece
34:13number one
34:13and it belongs to John
34:15and that's it
34:15and it's immutable
34:16nobody can change it
34:17it's done
34:18because if somebody
34:19tried to do
34:19something very similar
34:21I mean they could
34:22but it would be
34:22another smart contract
34:23it would be a separate one
34:24yeah it would be a separate one
34:25okay but a new piece of art
34:26I mean yours are created
34:27by an algorithm
34:28how do I know
34:28that what you put there
34:29you actually produced yourself
34:30yeah so basically
34:31when we mint an NFT
34:33it's the minting address
34:36so what identifies
34:38a digital wallet
34:40is the address
34:41and so basically
34:42if you know
34:43that obvious address
34:44is 0x
34:45na na na na na
34:46then you know
34:47that if an NFT
34:48is created by this address
34:50it's from us
34:50so you have to know
34:52which
34:52who is the person
34:54creating the NFT
34:55and if it's the right address
34:57if you talk to me
34:58and I say to you
34:59my address is 0x44
35:02and then
35:03if you see an NFT
35:05originated from the address
35:070x44
35:07you know it's from me
35:08so that goes back
35:08to the element of trust
35:09so that I know
35:10that it's from you
35:10and I trust you
35:11and I know that you
35:11would not fake
35:12and bring in something
35:13that's not really yours
35:14there will always be
35:15trust somewhere
35:17because at the end of the day
35:18it's just like money
35:19it's the value
35:20that we put in it
35:21that really exists
35:23but
35:24so hypothetically
35:24I go to a digital artist
35:26who has not yet been
35:26using NFTs
35:27I download their
35:29piece of art
35:30I now try to mint it
35:31into a smart contract
35:32and I say I'm the artist
35:33that
35:34you always
35:35you know
35:35that happens a lot
35:37sorry
35:37and that does happen a lot
35:38that happens a lot
35:39so I'm getting different reactions
35:40here you're saying
35:41it's not so likely
35:41but
35:42yeah
35:42so
35:43in the end
35:44some artists
35:45that didn't create
35:46NFTs
35:46were usurpated
35:47by others
35:48that tried to make
35:49money of them
35:50just like you have
35:51this in the art world
35:53but it seems easy
35:54though
35:54it seems easier
35:55to do it here
35:56yeah
35:56it's always
35:56one big
35:57I would not be able
36:00to do
36:00yeah
36:01but one big problem
36:02of the blockchain
36:03I will admit it
36:04is that
36:04it's really easy
36:05to do something wrong
36:07so like
36:08if you
36:08if you
36:09if you don't have
36:10the
36:10if you have bad intentions
36:11it's really easy
36:12to do something wrong
36:13but then
36:13if you're doing
36:14something right
36:14it's all
36:15also like
36:16immutable
36:17and certified
36:18that
36:19but I believe
36:20it's really interesting
36:21what you say
36:21yeah
36:22you will always have
36:23copycat
36:23to make it simple
36:24you know
36:25people duplicating
36:26it can happen
36:27for Louis Vuitton bag
36:29right now
36:29in the real world
36:30it happens for
36:31artworks every day
36:32you know
36:33that have
36:33basically
36:34you know
36:34half of the pollock
36:36on the market
36:36are fake ones
36:37basically right now
36:38and so
36:39you have also
36:41copycat
36:42and fake one
36:42in the blockchain
36:43the difference
36:44in the blockchain
36:46is that
36:47everything is traceable
36:48so at the moment
36:50if I see that
36:51it's a fake
36:51you know
36:52if someone detects
36:54say oh
36:54what this person
36:55is doing
36:56is wrong
36:56then you will have
36:58all the information
36:59transparently
37:00and be able to say
37:01okay
37:01it's a scam
37:02or it's a fake
37:04or it's something
37:05you know
37:05that you can prove
37:06from the blockchain
37:07in the real world
37:08everybody can walk
37:09with a Louis Vuitton bag
37:10and
37:11you know
37:12it's really
37:12really really hard
37:13to track it
37:15so reputation
37:15and trust
37:16still matter
37:17even in the NFT world
37:18they do
37:18they totally do
37:19and security
37:20so transparency
37:21is there
37:22but you need to
37:22add a layer
37:23of security
37:24which is also
37:24what we do
37:25at Ledger
37:25by allowing
37:26clear signing
37:27so you clear sign
37:28the transaction
37:28you know
37:29who you buy it from
37:30at the moment
37:30that you buy it from
37:31and it gets
37:31transferred into your wallet
37:32so I think
37:33the transparency piece
37:34is really key
37:35you were mentioning
37:36earlier that
37:37in your panel
37:38this morning
37:38people were talking
37:39about UX
37:39as being one of the
37:40barriers of entry
37:41for a broader
37:43population
37:44security is another one
37:45we want to make sure
37:46that people feel safe
37:47in that space
37:47I was working
37:49in e-commerce
37:50at the beginning
37:51of the 2000s
37:52where people were worried
37:53about putting their
37:53credit card online
37:54we're having the same
37:55kind of situation here
37:57but there are ways
37:58and there's technology
37:59it does sound to me
37:59like the weak link
38:00is the first one
38:01that once it's on the ledger
38:02it's fine
38:02but the person
38:03who puts the
38:03who mints it
38:04that's where
38:05there might be more risk
38:06you're able to see
38:07the provenance again
38:08I mean the idea
38:08is that you know
38:09and this is what happens
38:10when artists do drops
38:12right
38:12they have a Twitter account
38:13and they create
38:14the community
38:15around the art
38:16that they're going
38:16to be launching
38:16and then they know
38:17they tell you
38:18who they are
38:19you can verify
38:20before you do
38:20the transaction
38:21if you blind sign
38:22if you don't look
38:23at what you're signing
38:24then you can buy
38:24something that's not
38:25exactly what you want
38:26but if you're clear sign
38:27if you're able to see
38:28where the provenance is from
38:30then you're safe
38:30so that's why
38:31you need to do it
38:32you are right
38:32when you are buying art
38:33you need to know
38:34what you're buying
38:35and you need to do
38:36some research
38:36you know in the real world
38:38I think you saw
38:39the thing about
38:40Salvator Mundi
38:41for Devency
38:42for example
38:42you know they buy it
38:44but nobody knows
38:45if it's a Devency
38:45or if it's not
38:46at the moment
38:47you will start
38:47to ask the question
38:48and to do your self-research
38:51then you know
38:52you will know
38:52that what is the signature
38:54that created the artwork
38:55and if the signature
38:57is a real artist
38:58or someone else
38:59at the end of the day
39:00and the revolution
39:01that I mentioned
39:02at the beginning
39:03of the talk
39:03of ownership
39:03is also a revolution
39:05of self-custody
39:06you own this
39:07so it's a responsibility
39:08for you
39:08today we're in a world
39:09where our bank
39:10owns our money
39:11right
39:11we don't own our own money
39:12well we don't
39:13Spotify owns our money
39:15well you have to go
39:16to your bank
39:16and you have to like
39:17use your car
39:18and everything
39:18they actually own the money
39:19it's not in your hands
39:20here it's in your hands
39:21and the same goes with
39:23you know
39:24and what I was mentioning
39:25with music
39:25like you don't own your music
39:26Spotify owns your music
39:27for you
39:28this is a revolution
39:29of ownership
39:30where you're going to
39:30own it
39:31but that's also
39:32your responsibility
39:33so you need to do
39:34the research
39:34you need to be secure
39:35you need to be careful
39:37when you're signing things
39:38yeah but next to that
39:39you get freedom
39:40not bad
39:41so the bad news
39:42is that we have to
39:43cut the debate
39:43even though it's fascinating
39:44and I'm being told
39:45there's a lady in the back
39:46called Pauline
39:47who speaks in my ear
39:48and she tells me
39:48when it's really time
39:49to wrap up
39:50the good news
39:51is that this was
39:51the introductory course
39:52to NFTs
39:53and the next and final panel
39:54on Web3
39:56is actually going to be
39:58sounds a bit ironic
39:58diving into the artistic
40:00implementations of Web3
40:01so we did a lot of that
40:02now here
40:03the purpose was to start
40:04with the fundamentals
40:04of what NFTs actually are
40:06and we did that
40:06in the beginning
40:07but we'll dive further deep
40:08into what it means
40:09for the artistic world
40:10in the next panel
40:12so feel free
40:12to stick around
40:13but until then
40:14let me thank
40:15Zoe, Hugo, John
40:17and Sébastien
40:18for all of you
40:18for being here
40:19we can give them
40:20a round of applause
40:20we'll take
40:22thank you
40:25quick technical break
40:26whether you're watching us
40:27online or here
40:28in the stage
40:29if you are online
40:29you have to make sure
40:30you click back
40:30on State Street
40:31to come back
40:32to our next panel
40:32and in just a few minutes
40:33we'll have our fourth panel
40:34on Web3
40:35diving into NFTs
40:37and the artistic world
40:38we'll be right back
40:39thank you
40:39thank you
40:39thank you
40:40thank you
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