- il y a 3 mois
When Arts and Culture Enter Web3
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00:00Welcome back to stage 3 of Viva Tech.
00:02This is the fourth and final session on Web3.
00:06In the last one, if you were here or watching us online,
00:09we were talking about NFTs, what they are.
00:11Yes, we also spoke about their implication in the artistic world,
00:15but that's going to be really our focus for this final session.
00:19What are NFTs doing to the artistic world?
00:21How are they disrupting it and in what ways?
00:24So, to elaborate and explain to us what is happening in the artistic NFT world,
00:29I'm very glad to welcome here on stage Nathan Clements-Gillebsi.
00:33Did I do it right?
00:34You are director at Freeze, an agency that produces events and publications,
00:39and also advisor at Lito,
00:41which offers 3D-printed or 3D-rendered artwork for sale from leading museums.
00:48Okay, very intriguing. We're going to ask you about that in a moment.
00:51Gilberto Bonelli, co-founder of Diorama,
00:53specializing in digital assets across various artistic disciplines.
00:57You're going to show us a little bit of that in a moment.
00:59And last but not least, Ariel Hudes, principal at Pace Ventures,
01:03which is part of the Pace International Art Gallery.
01:07Okay, so this is going to be their artistic panel
01:09because you all brought some examples to show us
01:11so that we get a better idea of what it is that we're actually talking about
01:13with NFTs and the artistic world.
01:17So I'd like to start actually with you, Ariel.
01:21The principal of Pace Verso,
01:25which represents some of the most influential contemporary artists today,
01:28which just a few years ago would have been almost unheard of, no?
01:31for a respectable gallery owner to actually go in the NFT world.
01:37So maybe you can tell us about kind of what's the journey that brought you
01:41from the traditional arts to NFTs and a few words about Pace.
01:47Sure.
01:48Yes, I think it's helpful to start with.
01:49And if you could just hold the microphone close to the mouth,
01:52that would make sure we can hear you.
01:53Okay, how's that?
01:54That's much better.
01:55Otherwise, you'd scream in my ear and tell me,
01:56tell her to put the microphone next to them.
01:57Okay.
01:58So I think it's helpful to start by explaining a little bit what Pace Gallery is.
02:02So we're a 60-plus-year-old art gallery.
02:04We represent the best artists in the world,
02:07Jeff Koons, Alexander Calder, many, many more.
02:10And the way we've been successful for more than 60 years
02:14is that when amazing artists show up and we build relationships with them,
02:19when they want to make something, we figure out how to help them.
02:22And that is what's built our success.
02:25And while you're speaking,
02:26we're already seeing some examples from your collection, I suppose.
02:28Yes, and I'll speak about this one quickly in a moment.
02:30So what happened a year and a half ago is our artists started showing up
02:34and saying, I'm interested in making NFTs.
02:37And so our job, we knew, was to figure out how to support them in doing that.
02:40So it came directly from the artists.
02:42You did not impose it on them.
02:43That's right.
02:44100% came from the artists in terms of how we got into this space.
02:47Now that we're in deeper, we are going out to artists and saying,
02:50are you interested in doing something here?
02:52Some tools we can offer, but it came from them.
02:55And our CEO, Mark Glimsher, who owns the company,
02:58will say that a year and a half ago,
03:00people were looking at NFTs, his peers, and saying, that's not art.
03:05And Mark says, anytime someone says, that's not art,
03:09run towards it as fast as you can.
03:11I almost tried that in the previous panel.
03:12And when I saw that, I would be physically in danger.
03:15So I dropped that.
03:16But just try to challenge them a little bit.
03:18Think about photography.
03:19Think about pop art.
03:20Think about Warhol.
03:21Think about Basquiat.
03:22These are all artists and art movements that at one point,
03:26people, the establishment, pointed at them and said, that's not art.
03:29And our job is to get there early and not to wait until everybody recognizes it as fine art,
03:35but to be part of making that change.
03:36So before you tell us about what we're seeing,
03:38So when did you actually start?
03:39Pace Verso?
03:40No, the NFTs.
03:41We started a year and a half ago.
03:43So we started in March of 2021.
03:45And you're already fully established in the NFTs?
03:47We've now launched a business called Pace Verso.
03:49We've launched many projects.
03:50I'll speak now to the project we're working on,
03:52which is our largest project.
03:53Yes.
03:53This is a project by Jeff Koons.
03:55Jeff is sending, this is like a real meeting of the physical art world and the new NFT art world.
04:01Jeff Koons is sending 125 small sculptures of the moon, like golf ball sized, to the moon.
04:08They are going on a SpaceX rocket and then they will live on the moon forever.
04:12Wait, statues of the moon, which will go on the moon?
04:14Correct.
04:15Small sculptures.
04:15So what we just saw is a physical piece of art.
04:17That is the larger scale replica.
04:19So if you buy one of the moon sculptures, what you also get is you get an NFT.
04:23That's a photo of your sculpture on the moon.
04:26A real photo will be taken.
04:28And then you get this much larger scale replica to keep on earth.
04:32That's a really beautiful.
04:33Can I get a picture for when it's on the moon?
04:35That would be more complicated.
04:36No, no, no.
04:37We will have a photo on the moon.
04:38That's what the NFT will be.
04:39So you will know exactly what your sculpture looks like.
04:42Is that what we're seeing now?
04:43No.
04:43This is a separate project.
04:44We're doing big partnership.
04:45We announced last week with an NFT art company called Art Blocks.
04:50And this is what we're learning about this space is that partnerships are really important.
04:53We don't know everything.
04:54We don't know all the artists.
04:55We don't know the community and buyers yet.
04:57So we're partnering with the companies we most respect, including Art Blocks, to launch our artists' work.
05:03So this is our first Art Blocks project.
05:05It's launching on Tuesday morning.
05:07It's called Petrol Nation.
05:08And this is, you may not have heard about it from the traditional art world, but this project, the Web3
05:13world, is like abuzz with this project and can't wait till Tuesday morning.
05:18There are 196 NFTs.
05:20They're expecting they're going to sell out in minutes.
05:22So you could be anonymous on the street, but a celebrity in the NFT world?
05:25That's a good way of saying it, I think.
05:27Yeah.
05:27Thank you.
05:28All right.
05:28Perfect.
05:29Nathan, up to you.
05:30So maybe if you can tell us a few words about Lytro.
05:32I understand you're not the director there, you're advising them, but it's also quite a unique organization within the NFT
05:38world, art-related NFTs, metaverse experiences.
05:44Some of them, they print in 3D printers.
05:47Some of them are actually metaverse virtual reality experiences.
05:51Yes, absolutely.
05:53So my role with Lytro started really through the friendship with their co-founders.
05:58And when they told me that they'd acquired this incredible proprietary technology to 3D scan and 3D print artworks.
06:07And what I mean by incredible is I mean that this technology is currently in the National Gallery in London
06:12for the Raphael exhibition.
06:13So there's a massive 5x6 meter Raphael cartoon that couldn't travel from the Royal Collection.
06:19And so it has been 3D scanned and 3D printed and is hanging in this Raphael exhibition in the context
06:28of everything else.
06:28So this is...
06:29Is that an NFT?
06:30Sorry?
06:31No, this is the physical aspect.
06:32Okay.
06:32And that's what's great about Lytro and what I find so interesting about the project is it is a bridge
06:36between the physical and Web3.
06:39And so on the one hand, they work 3D scanning and also 3D printing works from major public collections.
06:45Is it what we're seeing now?
06:46Is that what you're describing?
06:47No.
06:47That is Freeze Masters.
06:49So I think you jumped a part of it.
06:50So I'm director of Freeze Masters in London.
06:53And Freeze Masters is...
06:54I think of it, but I'm sure everyone else agrees.
06:57It's the best place to acquire art in the world.
06:59It's a bespoke structure designed by Annabelle Zelldorf.
07:02And imagine being able to visit the Louvre, the Pompidou, where everything has price tags and everything is for sale.
07:07And Pace will be there this year as well, among many others.
07:11So we don't just consume art.
07:12We can actually buy it directly on the spot.
07:14Exactly.
07:14Exactly.
07:15So that's my professional background.
07:18And my interest in Web3, as we were saying earlier, we started during lockdown.
07:25We were looking at Freeze at how to engage audiences during lockdown, people who couldn't travel.
07:30And so, you know, we filmed lots of, you know, private walkthroughs of museum exhibitions that were closed.
07:35People couldn't go to museums.
07:37Museums couldn't operate.
07:38You couldn't interact with art.
07:39And those were wildly successful.
07:42And what's so exciting about Web3, and obviously Web3 is not only NFTs, it's the metaverse.
07:47It's also smart contracts.
07:49And it's just, it's the infinite possibility that these new mediums offer.
07:54And their infinite possibility is not only to artists as creators, but also to institutions.
07:59So say, for example, an institution that is partnering with Lito and creating either a 3D printed, limited edition from
08:05a masterpiece in their collection,
08:07or a metaverse experience of one of their exhibitions.
08:10You know, this is a new revenue stream for a public institution.
08:13And obviously for consumers in the end who also experience art in new, immersive ways.
08:17And also in much more democratic ways.
08:20Because by creating editions, you're, you know, reaching far more people than you could otherwise.
08:26So we do have some examples on the screen that I'd like us to interpret for us.
08:30So what are we seeing?
08:33That's...
08:33So this, this, this is an example of Freeze Masters.
08:37So these are, these are, these are two pictures of the fair, of what the physical fair looks like in
08:42London.
08:42And then I think your subsequent slides, as we continue the discussion, will also show us not only works that
08:48Lito is making, but also...
08:50Can we see the next slide, maybe?
08:51Sorry, I'm trying to match between the technical team in the back and what you're actually describing.
08:56So there might be a one step ahead of you.
08:58Can we see the other image for, for Nathan?
09:01Okay, you can also get back...
09:03The very first one was...
09:05The first one was...
09:11Okay, so we'll be back with the images in a moment.
09:13Maybe just a quick follow-up question.
09:15When we speak about NFTs and you spoke about 3D printing, could we think, or is it already happening, of
09:21buying the code for printing an art piece?
09:23So that could, could I own the codes of, for going and printing something?
09:29Yeah, you absolutely could.
09:30And I think what's, what's also interesting is a 3D rendered NFT, because so many NFTs are just, you know,
09:36are JPEGs or pictures.
09:38And it's much more interesting, especially in the context of using and viewing an NFT in the metaverse to have,
09:44you know, to use the full scope that, that the technology offers.
09:47And we have an artist who's doing just that, is putting 3D printing instructions for a sculpture onto an NFT.
09:53And with some exploding mechanisms, so that it can only be done once, and then the instructions sort of are
09:59gone.
09:59It's like Mission Impossible, it destroys itself afterwards.
10:02But that would be targeting probably mostly museums, or those who have the resources to go and print, because 3D
10:08printers are not that...
10:09I think they're pretty consumer-facing now, 3D printers.
10:12I guess it depends probably on the materials that the artist is using.
10:15My, you know, 24-year-old cousin is an architecture student, and he has three of them, you know, to
10:19print his models.
10:21And how much, how expensive, how accessible are they?
10:24I mean, like, you know, entry-level, like $100, like $150, you know, they...
10:27Even to know, I might start printing my own living room art.
10:29Yeah, yeah, they're the new HP and check printers.
10:32Okay, Gilberto, diorama, you create digital assets, so it's still within the realm of what we've discussed,
10:41but from looking at your website, you do very unique types of virtual art, which I'd like us to describe
10:47to us a little bit.
10:48And also very diverse, very interdisciplinary art.
10:52That's our particular...
10:54If you could just hold the microphone slightly closer.
10:56That's our specificity, that's what we evolve in, because diorama has been founded by architects.
11:05So, we have been creating digital environments and assets since 2016.
11:15We have been working with the world-leading architects, designers now, and the last two, three years, mostly with brands,
11:24artists.
11:25For sure, this NFT and metaverse new wave upcoming was something that naturally was in front of us.
11:37So, we are trying to drive our research into these new technologies and this Web3 being driven by our direction.
11:47So, keeping the quality of the experiences as our standards are and work hand-by-hand and in the hand
11:59with the artists and with our collaborators
12:00to create unique spaces and unique artworks to...
12:07Okay, we did see some examples while you were speaking.
12:10But now that we understand a little bit what each of you is doing, I'd like to ask all of
12:13you some conceptual questions about NFTs.
12:17The previous panel was very enthusiastic about NFTs.
12:19I don't know if you were sitting here and listening to them.
12:21But they were telling me that they're not concerned so much about copying.
12:24They're not so concerned so much about falsifications, copycats.
12:28For you as a traditional gallery, for example, or as a traditional architecture...
12:35Yeah, architect's office.
12:36I mean, you all come from the traditional artistic world.
12:40This transition doesn't jeopardize your intellectual property?
12:44I would say no.
12:46What we already see, this world is so new.
12:48But what we already see is that the market is validating still the idea of the original.
12:54So, even though if you think of some of the highest value NFTs, a CryptoPunk, for example,
13:00anybody could copy and paste the JPEG of a CryptoPunk and hold it and even pretend they owned it.
13:05But the market and the prices that we see on those CryptoPunks shows that there is still value placed on
13:12the originals.
13:13And we feel that for our artists, too.
13:16Fine.
13:16Anybody can copy and paste it and use it.
13:18That's fine.
13:19But the original is what maintains the value.
13:22Yeah.
13:22And the word original still holds its meaning in the digital world?
13:27The fact that it's all bits and bytes?
13:29I mean, speaking about an original piece still has a meaning?
13:33Yeah, no, of course, because there are always the original bits and bytes that started it all off.
13:37There's always that original CryptoPunk.
13:39Or, you know, in the case, if your NFT has one explosion and that's it, well, then...
13:44That's a good example of how to make sure that nobody could ever copy it.
13:48But it's probably an extreme one.
13:49There's lots of examples of artists who say each NFT can be printed by them one time.
13:55And once it's printed, it's marked.
13:56So you can sell the NFT.
13:58Someone else might buy it without wanting to print it.
14:00But only one time to be printed.
14:03I used to say that the Joconde, the Mona Lisa, is unique.
14:09And we have created millions of copies.
14:12Now we are using JPEGs that have traveled millions of screens and pick one and say that it's...
14:17So the copies did not devaluate the original?
14:20It's a unique one.
14:20So the process has been inverted.
14:25And gives us also the possibility to create editions.
14:29So limited editions, multiples, but still is unique.
14:32What about the risk of a bubble?
14:34So, I mean, there are some famous ones in my notes.
14:36I mean, there was the tulip fever in the 17th century Netherlands, where at some points flower buds...
14:41I don't know if you're familiar with this crazy story, but flower buds would be worth more than houses.
14:45Until some people, a few years later, people realized that it's only flowers.
14:48And suddenly their value dropped.
14:49But even in our own lifetimes, we've seen some speculative bubbles which burst.
14:54Are you concerned?
14:55So we saw this speculative bubble in NFTs, I think, burst.
14:58In the last few weeks.
14:59And Pace, we really see this as it is now our moment.
15:03Okay, the bubble is over with these speculative, quick flip, kind of junky NFTs.
15:08And what do people want in place of that?
15:10They want art that will hold its value.
15:13Exactly.
15:13Now it's time to do something real.
15:15And I really love what you said when we were first talking about photography.
15:18And if we think, at the end of the 19th century, when photography first came into place, it wasn't taken
15:24seriously as it is today, as a form also of artistic expression.
15:29And now nobody would challenge photography as being a work of art.
15:33Yet photography as a technology is the backbone of everyone's lives.
15:38We all have a camera in our pocket in the form of our smartphone.
15:41We all have IDs with our picture on them.
15:43We don't do anything without some element of photography involved.
15:47And I think, to me, that's what's so exciting about Web3 is the potential that is offered by the new
15:54mediums, by NFT as a medium of artistic expression for artists.
15:58Of, you know, smart contracts, for example, to, you know, regulate a transaction, not only at the moment of sale,
16:03but then subsequently.
16:04And also of, you know, the metaverse as a new place, not only for creation, but also of how to
16:09live with, you know, the art and not, you know, and not only.
16:13And I think, you know, again, back to the, you know, back to the Jeff Koons example, which I think
16:16also ties into what, you know, Litor doing is, I think it's most exciting when you have both a digital
16:22and a physical element.
16:23When you have the NFT and then you also have the physical artwork.
16:26I think in your case, it's amazing that you've got one on the moon, one on earth and one on
16:31the web.
16:32That's sort of, you know, that's, that's a trifecta.
16:33This one is difficult to oppose, but I mean, you both mentioned the fact that art goes in iterations and
16:38what was not considered art at one point in time might be considered like art a generation later.
16:43To go back to the example of Van Gogh, I mean, he died poor and nobody thought what he was
16:46doing was art, but tried to get one right now.
16:49But I'm wondering about the resistance that you're still facing.
16:51I mean, to which extent do you still feel like you need to evangelize your communities?
16:54Because you are working with very traditional industries.
16:56I mean, art has been there since caves, you're working with artists, you were saying area that some of them
17:00came to you and wanted to do it.
17:01I mean, do you also see some say, sorry, but this is not art and leave me out of it?
17:05No, I guess the new technologies that the metaverse gives, gives the opportunity to, to have a different approach and
17:14an alternative approach to an artwork.
17:16We, by the way, prepared a small teaser for, for the Kandinsky little painting.
17:22So the way you can, you can leave and appreciate an artwork has been a little bit disrupted and a
17:30little bit pushed forward.
17:32So for you, the resistance is over it. Now, now is that you're saying the junkie part is the phase
17:37is behind.
17:38And now what you see is more quality and trust. And it's here to stay.
17:41We, we always say that a year ago, our peers, our other galleries were coming to us and saying, you're
17:46doing NFTs and it was an accusation.
17:49And now they come and say, you're doing NFTs. And it's like a desperate plea to help them figure out
17:53how to be in this space as well.
17:55I think it's clear now to everyone. It's here. It's here to stay. Artists are using these tools and artists
18:01are going to create amazing things with these new tools.
18:03And our job is to rally around them and figure out how to bring their, their work to the, to
18:09the world.
18:10We have one minute left. Are there any also losers of this change? Most changes, most paradigm changes have winners
18:16and losers here.
18:16I keep hearing about empowering artists, removing the intermediaries. They can sell to whoever they want.
18:22Who's losing out? Is it the platforms that are going to be the losers of the system or who's going
18:27to be left behind by art?
18:28Because you're, you're describing a very deep transition in what we consider art.
18:31It's not just about ownership and how we trade art. It's about the definition of art.
18:35I think whenever there's, whenever there's a transition, those who lose are those who don't pay attention.
18:41You have to pay attention and see how that transition is going to impact you and impact your business.
18:47And you have to evolve. You know, we, we all evolve as a, as a species.
18:51We have all transitioned through the changes of our, of our habitat.
18:54And that's what we're doing today. And that's what we have to continue to do if we still want to
18:59be there.
18:59Totally agree. I think the institution, some institutions will be left behind and they'll be the losers.
19:04Companies like Lido are making it easy for us because we can use the tools they're developing to do what
19:09we need to do in the space.
19:11But some will ignore that, to your point, and they'll be the losers.
19:14So I have bad news for all of you here and in the audience.
19:17This brings us to the end of, of the fourth session on web three.
19:22I think we still have a video to show. There was that teaser video, which is...
19:26I'm about to get massacred by the technical team. Can you show the video?
19:29Oh, here's the video.
19:29Ah, it's running.
19:30It's good that you asked for it because if I did, they would just throw me off the roof.
19:33So what...
19:36She's talking to me. What are we seeing now in the video?
19:40It's a teaser for a metaverse experience we are producing in collaboration with Lido.
19:47Starting from the Kandinsky painting, they have been printed and scanned and printed.
19:54So the way to consume this art is actually...
19:56We could enter this...
19:58With a mask.
19:59Painting. Without mask.
20:01With a mobile, with a laptop, with whatever.
20:04Not... Not... The visor is not...
20:06Immersive art.
20:08Immersive art.
20:08Okay, but this was a perfect way to conclude this session marathon.
20:13For me, this was my last session at VivaTech after quite an intense morning.
20:17So thank you for being here at stage three.
20:19This was fascinating.
20:20Let's give a round of applause to our three panelists.
20:23Thank you.
20:24I'm sticking around even though I'm not moderating anymore.
20:26And I advise you to do the same because at two, my colleagues,
20:30Ele, Astru and Margot Haddad are going to be here for CEO Stories.
20:33So as of two in the afternoon, this stage is back in action.
20:37Go get some lunch and come back.
20:39Until then, from me, Dan Solovits, thank you for being with us and see you around.
20:42Bye-bye.
20:43Bye-bye.
20:43Bye-bye.
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