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Staying Ahead Skills for Lifelong Learning
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00:00Welcome to VivaTech.
00:02If you have just joined us here in the room or remotely,
00:05welcome back to those who stayed.
00:07We are starting our second session on future of work and talent,
00:12a session entitled Staying Ahead, Skills for Lifelong Learning.
00:17Now, we know that technical skills are in high demand
00:20but need to be updated often, more and more often, actually,
00:25and the acceleration of digitalisation across all industries
00:29is pushing for more technical skills within the workforce.
00:34So what is the best way to implement what we have dubbed lifelong learning
00:39and to meet these changing needs?
00:41For this discussion, I'm very pleased to be here on stage
00:44with Alexandre Ménard, senior partner at McKinsey.
00:48Welcome.
00:49With Marie-Christine Levé, who is founder at EduCapital.
00:53Welcome.
00:54With Francesca Borgonovi, head of skills analysis at the OECD.
00:59Welcome to you as well.
01:00And with Frédéric Jiménez, chief digital officer and managing director
01:05of the digital factory at Total Energies.
01:09Welcome to you all.
01:11Perhaps we can start with an overview of the situation.
01:16I'm going to turn to you, Alexandre.
01:18The tech world, we know it works at a very, very fast pace.
01:23The pandemic has accelerated these changes.
01:26How can organizations support their people to build better skills
01:31and to stay relevant in a climate like this?
01:34So let me maybe start a little bit before the pandemic
01:39because what you highlight, which is the tech skills transformation
01:43is something that is not new.
01:45Happened before COVID.
01:47Actually, it's a 10, 20 years revolution.
01:50It has been in place for at least 10, 20 years.
01:52What are we talking about?
01:54We are talking about digital, analytics, automation, cyber security, cloud.
02:01You name them.
02:02There are many of them.
02:03Each of them, by the way, is specific.
02:05It's a specific skill set that companies are looking for.
02:10The scale of the transformation is huge.
02:13Just to give a few numbers, today, Facebook is looking for 10,000 people
02:19with tech skills and competencies in Europe.
02:22Amazon is looking for more than 50,000 people with specific tech skills in North America.
02:29We estimate in Europe that the tech skill gap is around 1.5 million employees today.
02:37Just for cyber security globally, we're talking 3 million.
02:41These are huge numbers.
02:43So it is something that was there already before.
02:46It's, by the way, something that tech companies have looked at for a few years, a few decades.
02:54But now what is new for the past five years is that not only tech companies are looking for these
02:58skills,
02:59but also traditional companies, healthcare companies, energy companies, retailers, automotive companies.
03:07Everybody is looking for these jobs.
03:09Now, what has changed since the pandemic?
03:12It's actually two things.
03:13Number one is, during the pandemic, actually, a lot of industries turned or accelerated their digital transformations.
03:22The world went digital.
03:23The world went remote.
03:25And so the skills gap on these skills actually increased dramatically over the past two, two and a half years.
03:32And the second thing that actually happened during COVID was that people started realizing that
03:37you basically have three levers to fill the gap if you're a company, if you're a corporation.
03:42Number one is to hire those competencies on the market.
03:47Given the numbers I gave, it's a huge number.
03:51Hiring will be part of the solution, but you cannot, as a corporate, count only on hiring.
03:56It will be half of the solution.
03:59The second solution is actually outsourcing those skills.
04:03Assuming you can actually find somebody on the marketplace who can actually provide you these services.
04:09Outsourcing software development, for example.
04:11So that's one solution, but you need to actually say that this is not strategic for me.
04:16I'm actually ready to give that activity to somebody else.
04:20And the third solution, which is the one that has tremendously progressed during COVID, is reskilling and upskilling.
04:28And we believe today that this trend of reskilling and upskilling is the one that has increased most and will
04:36continue to increase and probably provide half of the answer to bridge this gap.
04:41What we mean by skilling and upskilling is for your employees, your workforce within your company, to actually train them
04:50to develop the new skills that you require to compete in the new digital world.
04:56There are three steps to actually do it.
04:58One is to have a very precise workforce planning exercise that is not just about technology, but goes deeper into
05:05each of the specific skills.
05:07The second one is to develop the training journey, which will include on-the-job training, which will include academic
05:14training, and which will include as well lifelong learning and within corporate digital training.
05:21And the third is to actually implement it.
05:24These are basically the two things that actually happen over the two and a half pastures, an acceleration of the
05:30skill gap, and an acceleration of the reskilling and upskilling training.
05:34Thank you so much for this comprehensive overview.
05:38I'm going to turn to you, Francesca.
05:41You are head of skills analysis at the OECD.
05:44So my first question, naturally, is how good are we at this, at this upskilling, at this lifelong learning?
05:53Yeah, I mean, not very good, I would say.
05:55I mean, we have been talking about lifelong learning since the 60s.
05:59That makes 60 years in which we have been talking about the importance of lifelong learning.
06:05But despite this, in traditional exercises, what we're still doing is we're measuring human capital in terms of years of
06:13schooling and in terms of formal qualifications acquired.
06:17So we don't really know what skills individuals have, but rather for how long they have attended school or whether
06:24they have achieved specific qualifications, maybe 15, 20, 25 years before.
06:30So what we're doing at the OECD is actually we're doing surveys and assessments to measure the skills that individuals
06:39have over the life course.
06:41One survey is the survey of adult skills.
06:44And in terms of foundation skills among youngsters, there is the program for international student assessment.
06:50Now, in terms of participation, we have been reminded about the importance of upskilling and reskilling.
06:56Among OECD countries, 6 out of 10 adults are still not participating in formal or non-formal learning to develop
07:05their skills.
07:07And unfortunately, what we do measure is that there are important inequalities.
07:11So individuals who went to university are considerably more likely to build their skills over the life course, while individuals
07:21who have poor skills to start with tend to be much less likely to engage in further education and training.
07:28Now, technology obviously means that we need to invest in lifelong learning.
07:34But technology is also an important way in which we can deliver upskilling and reskilling efforts in ways that are
07:42more appealing to individuals.
07:43The reason why many are not participating is that they're not finding opportunities that match their interests and needs.
07:51I would like to use what you just said, which is perfect, a perfect segue so I can turn to
07:57Marie-Christine.
07:59Has there been a change or changes in attitude to learning, new learning models and lifelong learning since COVID?
08:08Yes, this crisis has been a catalyst for the edtech industry and for digital learning because 1.7 billion people
08:19have experienced digital learning, new ways of working during the pandemic.
08:24And this has, you know, we have gained 5 to 10 years in terms of edtech adoption.
08:30And this is what historians call, you know, an acceleration of history.
08:34That happens not a lot of time in the lifetime of an industry.
08:38And that has been really a spectacular increase.
08:41And there's been a huge demand for, you know, remote platforms to work differently, for digital learning platforms, for digital
08:49platforms to reskill workers.
08:52And there has been a huge surge in investment in edtech, in digital learning.
08:57Hold that thought, Marie-Christine.
08:59Can you hear her properly?
09:01Right.
09:01I'm going to ask every one of you to please just stick the microphone to your chin.
09:06Okay.
09:07Let's try it that way.
09:08I was saying there has been a huge surge of investment in edtech.
09:12From between 2019 and 2020, investment has been multiplied by two to reach $16 billion investment in digital learning platforms,
09:24in tools, you know, new schools, online platforms for teaching.
09:31And basically, we could have said that 2020 was an extraordinary year due to the lockdown.
09:38But this surge of investment has gone on in 2021 because it has, investment has surged to $20 billion.
09:47And the trend for 2022 is still good.
09:52So this crisis has really accelerated the digital transformation of the society.
09:57And just to give you two numbers, you know, there's that worldwide, we think that 149 million digital jobs will
10:05be missing by 2025.
10:08And we, all economy says that this is a major issue for G20 countries.
10:14And for them, the risk is $11.5 trillion of economic growth due to unfilled roads in the digital space.
10:23So companies, the two interesting trends that have happened is that companies have realized that they need to retrain their
10:31workers because skills become much more obsolete.
10:35And then what is very interesting and the new trend is that the individual has taken the role and is
10:42in charge now of his training to increase its employability.
10:47And the digital training market has gone from B2B to B2C.
10:52That means now the individual is in charge and wants, you know, to go to digital learning platforms to, you
10:59know, learn all his life.
11:00And we really believe that the life diploma that most of us must have had in their life is finished.
11:07And people will change, you know, eight to ten times career in their life and they will alternate, you know,
11:14period of work, period of training and period of digital training.
11:19Thank you so much, Marie-Christine.
11:20And to complete this dive into your different activities, I turn to you, Frédéric.
11:27You know, at Total Energies, for those who don't understand or don't know your business, to what extent is the
11:36development of digital technology a driver of transformation for you?
11:41For sure, today, digital transformation is not only more the prerogative of the GAFAM, the tech companies.
11:50All sector activity, all industries have to transform and use digital to transform themselves.
11:58So it's, and in the energy sector, which is transitioning very quickly, there is a strong acceleration of the transformation
12:04of this business.
12:06Digital is everywhere and it's crucial.
12:09We can see new technology coming into this business.
12:12We are talking about artificial intelligence, IoT, blockchain, and a few years ago, it was just a proof of concept
12:21or some single solution.
12:25Now it's everywhere.
12:26And in Total Energies, so we can see that there is no more, no existing activity or new activity where
12:33we don't use and we don't deploy digital to improve our operation or to create new businesses.
12:42If I take a few examples, for example, in the term of our operation, we optimize most of our existing
12:51operation now using digital.
12:53It could be maintenance, it could be supply chain, it could be, for example, we are now checking the quality
13:00of our batteries at the end of the chain of fabrication by artificial algorithm.
13:07It's completely new, but it's everywhere.
13:09In the new business, now when we are talking about mobility, electric vehicle mobility, the new mobility, you can imagine
13:19that everything is digital.
13:21The journey of someone who has an EV car is digital.
13:25You will find your charging point, you will find your route, you will know the status, and you will pay
13:33fully digitally,
13:35which is a completely new way of dealing with the marketing for us.
13:41We also use digital in how we could improve the safety of our operation.
13:47Digital solution with vision, assisted vision, sensor on the workers, etc. could also help us to improve the safety of
13:57our operation.
13:58And last but not least, we also use a lot of digital solution to reduce the emission of our operation,
14:09of our customers.
14:13So that can be we are monitoring and improving the hydrogen network of our refineries.
14:19We are improving the truck consumption of our fleet of trucks.
14:23We are following the raw material to create biofuel.
14:30because we need to prove that is raw material, bio material to become biofuels.
14:40So the proof of sustainability, so it's really everywhere.
14:43And on the top of that, the use of digital is also changing the way of working of people in
14:51our operation.
14:53Data is now available for most of the people, when it used to be for a selected number of people.
15:02And now this data is available everywhere, make decisions, or more and more make data analysis and recommendations rather than
15:12only experience of people.
15:15It promotes collaboration, so we have more and more people working on the same set of data wherever they are
15:23in the world, so they can also work remotely.
15:26We have remote assistance, remote operation, including in our offshore facilities, for example.
15:31So all these things are really changing dramatically the way we operate and we run our operation.
15:38Thank you so much. Now I'm going to open the panel discussion, so I'm going to be asking questions and
15:44whomever feels wants to answer the question, you can just go ahead.
15:49My first question is a very simple one.
15:52Are there basic skills that each and every one of us needs to learn to be able to adapt to
16:02being a lifelong learner, to be able to learn easier?
16:06Is there skills that we can work on?
16:11That's a great question. Maybe I can share some of the elements of a recent research that we conducted with
16:19the Mikitse Global Institute, which is our global think tank looking at future trends happening.
16:27This study was done over 20,000 people were surveyed from corporates, academics, people in the sphere of education, EdTech
16:37and a few others.
16:39And basically what they looked at is over the next decade, what are the jobs that are going to be
16:44disappearing or where the need is going to be reduced?
16:47What are the jobs that are going to be created? And what are the skills that will be required?
16:55From this study, we actually came up to the conclusion that there are four broad areas of skills that will
17:02be necessary to develop in order to be successful in the new world of jobs and in the future of
17:07work.
17:08These areas, these four areas are basically soft or advanced cognitive areas rather than pure technical skills that we emphasized
17:18in the beginning with cybersecurity or analytics.
17:21The first domain is cognitive skills. Here we are talking about critical thinking, communication, planning and ways of working, but
17:33also mental flexibility to adapt to a fast changing environment.
17:38That's the first domain. The second domain is really interpersonal skills. Here we are talking about mobilizing systems, developing relationships
17:48or teamwork.
17:50The third area is self-leadership. Here we are talking about self-awareness and self-management, entrepreneurship and growth achievement,
17:59the ability to achieve your targets.
18:02And the final domain is actually digital. I will not go into that because it's digital proficiency by and large.
18:09These four domains are, we believe, the four areas that people will need to actually develop. And in the course
18:16of this survey and study,
18:19we talk to government, we talk to education entities, we talk to education professionals, edtechs and students, the whole ecosystem
18:28will actually need to adapt from governments to academic, traditional academic entities to new edtech companies, lifelong learning and companies
18:39on the job training.
18:40The answer will come from a mix of these different delivery mechanisms to actually achieve developing skills for as many
18:49people as possible in one country in order to make them successful in their career, but also to make them
18:57happy. That's one of the conclusions as well.
19:00Thank you so much. Perhaps a reaction, Marc-Christine, do you agree with the skill set? And also, if you
19:07could touch up on digital proficiency. That's something that I would like us to explain to the audience in detail
19:14if possible.
19:15Yes, definitely. This is basically what we are saying that there are four skills that are really not taught at
19:22school and that we need in the professional life. This is the school of the 4C that Yuval Harari spoke
19:29a lot about in his books.
19:30And it's like creativity, critical thinking, communication and collaboration. And basically, if we look at what edtech and digital can
19:40do is that first, it scales pedagogy, it democratizes pedagogy and it scales pedagogy because it enables to have access
19:48to the best resources wherever you are in the planet.
19:53And this was the beginning of edtech. And this was the beginning of edtech with companies like Coursera in the
19:57US, open classroom in France. And then, you know, what is very interesting is that we are entering into an
20:04era of micro certification, micro learning and micro certification.
20:09And this goes, you know, with the fact that people will learn all their life and, you know, you will
20:14have your diploma and then you will enter into an area where you can have a lot of micro certification
20:19that will take mostly online and that you can add to your resume.
20:24And you know, they are very interesting. And in this area, there are like two types of companies, you know,
20:30one, some companies that are enablers that they help universities to go into this micro certification era.
20:38For example, we invested in a company called Forfrave, they are based between Australia and the UK, and they provide
20:45digital learning certification in cooperation with big tech companies like, you know, Amazon Web Services, GitHub, Microsoft, and they do
20:55that with universities so that people have their diploma and then they can add this micro certification linked to in
21:03order to increase their employability.
21:04So these are enablers. So these are enablers. And then you have a lot of disruptors, people that come with
21:09completely new ways of teaching and new schools online. We see a lot of schools arriving in the cybersecurity, in
21:18the data, in AI. So you have all these people. So this is the second trend is micro certification.
21:24And the third trend, which is very interesting is peer to peer learning and project based learning. That means that
21:31people will learn from their peers. And this happens, for example, a French company that is in our portfolio called
21:37360 Learning.
21:38It's a big SaaS software platform for companies in order for all employees to share with their peers. So the
21:48training is no more top down in the company, but everybody can train his employees. And this peer to peer
21:54learning is a big trend in the digital learning that we see right now.
21:58Thank you so much. Frédéric, I believe that Total Energy is going through a very profound transformation with moving away
22:10progressively from fossil energy.
22:13So I imagine there's a lot of upskilling to be done in the workplace. How's it going? And how are
22:18people reacting to this?
22:20First, I will zoom a little on the digital because I could speak for quite a long time of the
22:28transformation of all the company. But as we say that the transformation of the company is supported by digital transformation.
22:35And to have that, we really want and we really need to have digital skills. So yes, to do this
22:45transition, we need resources and we want to do this transition fast. So we need resources fast.
22:50So we first said that for digital, we can't just wait for upskilling our people. It's too long. So we
22:56decided very quickly to, and it was the point of Alexander at the beginning, we decided to recruit.
23:02And so we recruited the 120 people in two years in Paris. We want to recruit 30 more specialists of
23:10digital for data scientists, UX designers, software developers, etc.
23:15All these new jobs to support the transformation of the company. The second point is we say we need to
23:23learn our business people to work with digital people to build new solutions for transformation of the company.
23:30So we, in all our projects, we are mixing teams with pure digital tech guys with business people. And that
23:40means that we need to train, coach our business people to work in agile methodology, to work with technology they
23:50don't know, to understand what is artificial intelligence, etc.
23:54And so we help them to work with our team to build this solution. But after when the solutions are
24:02on the field, it changes also the way people are running our operation.
24:06So now we also have an upskilling of our operators because it's not the same to do your maintenance with
24:16assistance from someone who could be a thousand kilometers far from you with a real augmented reality helmet to support
24:27your operation.
24:27If you transform your technology, if you transform your technology, your sensor in your plants by IoT with a new
24:34technology, with new connectivity.
24:37And we rely, when you rely more and more on artificial intelligence algorithm to give you recommendation, when in the
24:44past you were relying on your experience.
24:47So it's a big transformation of the people and we really pay a lot of attention to that.
24:52But we also see that the technology is more and more easy to use and we really think that today
25:03we also are upskilling our business people, tech people, engineers to be able to directly use the technology to build
25:12their own solution to run their operation.
25:14We are talking about citizen developers or citizen data scientists, but that means that today our engineers are able to
25:22access to some data that we manage in platforms that are secure, etc.
25:27And they can build their own artificial intelligence, own data analytics model to run their operation, what they were doing
25:36in some very specific tools or in Excel in the past.
25:39So we are upskilling them on the technology as well because we think that to transform the company and to
25:47try to spread the digitalization in all the company, we are 130 and 100,000 people in 130 countries.
25:56It can be done only from specific teams, very highly skilled in digital. It must be spread all over the
26:05company. And so we really upskill our people in digital everywhere.
26:10Thank you so much. Thank you, Frederic. My next question. First of all, I would like perhaps for the people
26:16who are listening for us to give the distinction and explanation of the distinction between upskilling and reskilling.
26:23I believe it might be interesting. Perhaps you can do this for us, Francesca, and maybe give us a measure
26:30of how people are reacting to this need of constant learning that is new in the workplace.
26:38I mean, upskilling is essentially building on skills you have. It's actually upgrading what you have for a new context,
26:47while reskilling is actually changing the bundle of skills that you have, augmenting what you have with new skill sets.
26:55So that's the broad distinction. And of course, there is a bigger jump, let's say, in the reskilling rather than
27:03the upskilling.
27:06Thank you so much. Do you have any numbers on the general sentiment of the people on the OECD on
27:16this need for constant learning of new skills?
27:20I mean, what we do have is that many individuals, many adults are not participating and those who are not
27:28participating in lifelong learning opportunities are saying that they would not like to participate more.
27:34And there are a number of reasons for that. One of the reasons is the negative experiences that they had
27:41with initial education early on.
27:44And what that means is that they failed to develop a habit of learning, which is really what's needed in
27:50order to learn throughout one's life.
27:53Then there are other barriers related to financing, related to, for example, what was said before in terms of micro
28:00-credentials that really give a sense of what people have achieved.
28:06And lack of information about opportunities that they have. And finally, the fit between available opportunities and what they need.
28:18In terms of developing a habit of learning, that's crucial because it's much easier to learn and upskill or reskill
28:26once individuals have strong foundation skills.
28:29And unfortunately, as I said, many education systems in OECD countries and beyond are failing that crucial first step.
28:37But even on the cognitive part, I mean, we heard about the importance of going beyond the cognitive.
28:43That's an important foundation. But what's needed these days is actually to complement this with things like collaborative problem solving,
28:52cognitive flexibility, openness to diversity.
28:55And the big problem is that individuals are able to learn these skills, but oftentimes we have teachers who don't
29:07know how to actually teach these skills.
29:10And we don't know how to assess proficiency in these skills.
29:14And in this sense, I think technology is crucial because the measurement of traditional foundation skills like literacy or numeracy
29:23could be done quite efficiently with paper-based instruments.
29:27By contrast, a lot of these, I don't like to call them soft skills because they seem to be not
29:33that important,
29:34but really relies on technology to develop scenario-based kind of environments in which individuals are allowed to operate with
29:43others, for example,
29:44and to what extent they're able to solve problems that way.
29:48So that's one way in which technology can aid.
29:51Thank you so much.
29:52I have a question that has arrived, a question from the audience, and I find it really interesting, so I'm
29:57going to submit it to you all.
29:59Is it possible to upskill for agility in the workplace?
30:07Can upskilling help in making you more agile in the workplace?
30:13I believe that's the question.
30:15Yeah, I think that we experience that because we've built a structure that is a digital factory that is based
30:24on agility.
30:25Everything we do is based on agile methodology.
30:28And each project we do are done with people from the business, standard activities that could be in a refinery,
30:36in solar farm or whatever.
30:38And what we do with them is first we upskill them on this methodology, etc.
30:44We help them to understand, we coach them and support them during the project they run with us on agility,
30:52and the objective is not only to do agile projects,
30:56it's also that they bring these new skills in their activity when they go back to their business.
31:02And some of them have started to reorganize the way they were running their teams using the ritual of agility,
31:10of agile.
31:11Thank you so much.
31:13And another question which is, how do you make sure, very interesting question as well, how do you make sure
31:20that re-skilled people succeed in this new role?
31:24I think that's a very important question.
31:26Have you had experience with this, following companies that re-skill in their different services?
31:36And how do they follow up to make sure that the people who are re-skilled are successful in their
31:43new roles?
31:44Does this speak to you?
31:47So, we have followed indeed dozens of companies going through the re-skilling journey.
31:54The one very important element is that it is not a one shot.
31:59It is not something that happens once, and then you're done.
32:03It's really a long-term journey that will be, I think we, one of the notions we are touching is
32:09continuous learning through lifelong learning.
32:13It is something that, it's a system that you put in place that will live for a number of years,
32:20if not a number of decades.
32:21Where people will go through the journey, the journey will be actually designed with very specific steps, very specific certifications,
32:32where you actually progress through the objectives that would have been defined.
32:37And so you follow and you track this.
32:40And the journey will last a few years.
32:42And as the world is changing extremely fast, as the business models are changing also extremely fast, and the technologies
32:51and the new technologies are also, the ones from yesterday are not going to be the ones from tomorrow.
32:56So you will need to constantly learn new ones.
32:59So the people that are successful are people that put in place an organization, a learning organization, a nub-skilling
33:07and re-skilling organization that is here for the long run, not for a one-time training where then you
33:15forget.
33:15And then once you have that architecture in place and you monitor, not just the learning progresses, but also the
33:22impact afterwards and how people are actually operating in their new environment, you're actually pretty successful.
33:29But it has to be acknowledged that for some skills, for some people, it is not a hundred percent hit
33:36rate.
33:36You will have some failures, but the idea is to minimize it.
33:42I prefer difficulty to failures.
33:45What do you think?
33:46We will have some people who may have more difficulties.
33:49Yes.
33:50Because we are in VivaTech, we can also say that tech can really help, you know, success of re-skilling
33:57and up-skilling, thanks to the use of AI.
34:00You know, and you know, the big trend of EdTech is adaptive learning and personalized learning.
34:06Thanks to AI, you can really give personalized path to people because we have learned, you know, with neuroscience progress
34:14that every brain, you know, memorized and retains differently.
34:18So if you give personalized path, you know, to people, they will, you know, increase their learning because it will
34:24adapt to the way their brain works.
34:26We've been talking a lot about digital online learning.
34:31Is certification important?
34:34Is it something that is valued by the companies?
34:36Do you do this in EdTech?
34:37Definitely, you know, because, you know, the completion of most MOOC is around 5%.
34:45Okay.
34:45Because most of the people, you know, it's very tough, you know, to, you know, have the consistency, you know,
34:50to follow a MOOC.
34:53But whenever you have certification, the completion rate can go up to, you know, 95%.
34:58So basically, you know, we have learned through the, you know, the MOOC exists for the last, you know, 10
35:04years.
35:05And we have learned that micro-certification works when there's a certification to complete it.
35:11Thank you.
35:12I'm going to go to Francesca and perhaps if you wanted to react afterwards.
35:16I mean, I just wanted to, in a sense, link this question with the previous one.
35:21How do you measure success of retraining efforts?
35:24And that's not necessarily just at the level of individuals.
35:28A lot of the lifelong learning that we talk about, it's not just formal or non-formal learning, but a
35:34lot it's informal.
35:35Learning from colleagues through mentorships and et cetera.
35:38That's around 70% of what goes on.
35:41And so the big issue is really creating ecosystems of lifelong learning.
35:47You have someone undergoing that 20 or additional 10% of non-formal or formal learning.
35:54How do you actually use that to, in a sense, feedback on everyone else?
35:59And in that context, the micro-certifications are important for the individual undergoing the re-skilling and up-skilling.
36:07But actually there's a lot more going on at the level of organizations.
36:11And maybe it's important to recognize that.
36:15That's very interesting.
36:16So what you're saying is that up-skilling or re-skilling isn't necessarily something very formal.
36:21It can also be informal in the workplace with contact with your colleagues.
36:27So this brings me to the last question that we have received from the audience, which is how much, and
36:33it's a very hard question, I know, but I have to ask it.
36:36How much should companies invest in up or re-skilling?
36:41Is there a way to measure this?
36:43What do you think?
36:46It's a great question.
36:49Personally, I don't have a number, but it's a big number.
36:54It's a big number, and from what we know, because we looked at that topic quite intensely,
37:00the return on investment that you get from re-skilling and up-skilling and the speed that it provides,
37:07and I acknowledge Frederic's point that it cannot be the only solution.
37:12You need for some skills for digital to hire externally, in particular at the beginning.
37:18The return on investment is actually one of the biggest when you re-skill and up-skill.
37:25We are talking about a significant investment because it's taking a lot of people's time.
37:31It requires infrastructure.
37:33It requires investment.
37:34And I think even the time investment of managers to actually do it, because I also fully agree with the
37:40point that
37:41it's going to be on the job and off the job, is more than 10%, certainly.
37:48So it's a big investment, but it's also a big return on investment.
37:52Thank you so much.
37:53So would you like to react?
37:55Just saying, on the point, I come from an organisation, the ACUD, that really deals with policy-making,
38:02rather than on the individual business side of things.
38:06And so I would like to stress that there is a role to play also in the financing aspect in
38:13terms of public policies.
38:15A lot of small firms are unable to effectively provide the upskilling and re-skilling needed by niche populations.
38:24So public policy can help in that.
38:27And there is a lot of public benefit coming from having an educated workforce.
38:33So that's an important point, again, to emphasise.
38:35Thank you so much.
38:36So we have a few minutes left.
38:38Before we close this session, I'm going to ask each one of you, what are the words, the parting words,
38:44that you would like the audience to leave with after we finish this session?
38:48Very important part of the conversation.
38:51So I'll give you a few seconds to think about it, and who would like to start?
39:00Please go ahead, Alexandre.
39:01It's going to be two words, long-term.
39:04Long-term?
39:05It's a long-term topic.
39:06Yes.
39:07Long-term question, long-term investment.
39:09Thank you.
39:10Two important words, short and sweet.
39:12Please.
39:13Saying a long journey also.
39:15It's a long journey.
39:17Absolutely.
39:18Thank you.
39:19Francesca.
39:20I mean, since I spoke about the love of learning, I would say it's a fun journey.
39:25I mean, it's important in order to get this lifelong learning perspective,
39:30that people enjoy actually learning, and we should make sure that learning provision is fun as well as useful.
39:38Thank you so much.
39:39Frédéric?
39:41I think we need, for example, in our company where people who are doing their job for 10, 20 years,
39:48to show them that it's an opportunity.
39:50They could be frightened today, and we must show them that it's a real opportunity for them, whatever the edge
39:57they have.
39:58Thank you.
39:59Thank you so much.
39:59I think we can give them some applause.
40:01Thank you for your participation today, and for all your insights.
40:07She lifestyle, and Gary Hale- rereads that were lastly ringing to the SpanishTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTuTu这 parenth!!!!
40:07Thank you.
40:08I will make your mates.
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