- il y a 2 jours
Web3 How Is Blockchain Ushering In a New Era of Internet
Catégorie
🤖
TechnologieTranscription
00:00Welcome back.
00:01If you just joined us, packed stage here, stage 3.
00:04My name is Dan Sobovitz, and we are starting now a two-hour marathon on Web3.
00:09It's a big topic.
00:10We're going to have four different sessions on it, and we're going to try to tackle it
00:13in different aspects of what Web3 is all about.
00:16We're going to talk about decentralization.
00:18We're going to talk about NFTs.
00:20We're going to talk about its impact on the artistic world.
00:22But our first topic, which I'd like us to start with, is blockchain right after this.
00:46All right.
00:46So like I said, blockchain, the technology behind Web3, for some of us, it's a buzzword.
00:52For the people around me now, it's actually part of your daily work.
00:56And I'm very glad to be now joined by Gwendolyn Regina, Investment Director at BNB Chain.
01:02Great to have you.
01:03Right next to you, Laurie Hav, your head of Estonia's e-residency program, which you'll tell us about in a
01:09moment.
01:09And on my left, Alex De Fri, your data scientist at DNB and a researcher at VU Amsterdam.
01:17So great to have you all here in person, finally, at VivaTech.
01:22Before we go into the future of blockchain, I'd like to ask each of you to tell us, as I
01:28said, a little bit about your professional relationship with blockchain.
01:32What it actually means for each of you in your daily jobs.
01:35And I'd like to start with you, Gwendolyn.
01:37So BNB Chain is part of Binance, the crypto giant exchange.
01:42Can you tell us a little bit about what BNB Chain is and how you are using blockchain?
01:47Blockchain.
01:48Dan, thank you so much for having me.
01:50VivaTech is good to be back in person as well.
01:53So my name is Gwendolyn and I lead investments at BNB Chain.
01:56So BNB Chain is the most used blockchain in a Web3 space with 1 million daily active users.
02:04It was kicked off by Binance in September 2020.
02:08And really, in the decentralized world, we are owned by the community.
02:12There is no one particular owner.
02:15All of us can have a stake in it.
02:16And my role at BNB Chain is to figure out how can we grow blockchain and crypto adoption to 1
02:23billion users.
02:24So right now, where we are at in the blockchain space, and I'm sure we'll get into it right now,
02:29is that we're so small in terms of penetration and the ability for people to use and benefit from blockchain
02:37technology and crypto.
02:38It's something that we really, really want to see.
02:40And we look at projects and startups on a daily basis, looking at innovations, how are they rethinking the web,
02:49how are they rethinking use cases, and how we use blockchain as its core, and how are we creating a
02:55new world.
02:56So my day-to-day, I speak to many projects, lots of cool people building on the ground, and yeah.
03:02So you're in the right place to meet new startups and new technologies to maybe integrate into your future business.
03:07Exactly.
03:08Laurie, over to you.
03:09So disclaimer, I'm a proud resident of, I'm an e-resident of Estonia.
03:14Oh, really?
03:14Yes, since a few years.
03:16But I'd like to ask you, so I know it from the UX perspective.
03:18I know what it's like, you know, I had to go to the Estonian embassy to get my card, and
03:21I had to connect and get my password.
03:23But I'd like to ask you about the back end of it.
03:25So I understand it's all based on blockchain technology.
03:27And I'd like to ask you about the way the e-residency, maybe you can tell us a few words
03:32for those who are not proud, e-residents like myself, what it is.
03:34But how is Estonia making use of the blockchain technology for this specific e-residency program?
03:39But more in general, I understand that many of your public services are blockchain-based.
03:44That is true.
03:45And then this goes to show about data protection.
03:47I did not know that you are an e-resident.
03:49So, okay.
03:51Regarding blockchain use, so Estonia actually has been using blockchain-based public registers since 2008.
03:59You could just hold the microphone slightly closer.
04:01So when the first Bitcoin manifesto came out in 2008, and the first Genesis block was minted in 2009,
04:10so by that time we were already actually actively using blockchain technology.
04:14But not yet for the residents.
04:15But not for the e-residents, you know, because we started off with things like succession registry, business registry, land
04:21registry, and also digital health.
04:23So basically everywhere where you want to be really sure that the data is not tampered with, and you know
04:28who changed what, and when they changed it.
04:30So your reasoning of switching to blockchain was actually to make sure that the data is more safe.
04:35Exactly, exactly.
04:36Somebody even told me that that was already out of fears that if there was ever a Russian invasion into
04:41Estonia,
04:41they could never actually stop you from functioning because everything would be decentralized.
04:45Is that true?
04:45For that purpose, actually, we do have a data embassy in Luxembourg.
04:48So there's an actual embassy which consists of servers of Estonia, and they are situated in Luxembourg.
04:53Okay.
04:53Maybe a quick word about the e-residency, even though it's not the only governmental service which is blockchain-based,
05:00but it's still very interesting and probably the first, if not the only, in the world of its kind.
05:05Definitely, e-residency was the first program of its kind back in 2014.
05:10Now a few other countries have followed suit, which is really great.
05:13We're really happy for them to do so.
05:15And basically, we have a belief that a country or a government can serve also constituents outside of its borders
05:22if the services are digital.
05:24So therefore, e-residency is kind of one way how people outside of Estonia can benefit from that.
05:30And do business and et cetera and get services even if they're on the other side of the world.
05:35Alex, I presented you as a researcher, but you're also the founder of Digi-Economist,
05:40a platform dedicated to exposing the unintended consequences of digital trends.
05:45So I'm going to ask you to put the hat of the party pooper here now and tell us why
05:49blockchain is not so great
05:50or what kind of externalities should we still keep in mind in this big enthusiasm?
05:54I mean, there are many people here, I think, behind the stage, but also in front who are blockchain enthusiasts.
05:59We're not talking about cryptocurrency alone, which is an entire debate of its own,
06:03but blockchain as such is a technology.
06:04Your mic should be on, but what should we keep in mind?
06:08What is the downside that we should also be concerned about?
06:12Well, the thing is, when we look at blockchain technology in general,
06:17and I typically focus on the environmental sustainability side of things,
06:20but even from that perspective, you have to realize that blockchain technology
06:25was never designed to be efficient technology.
06:28In fact, energy efficient.
06:30Yes.
06:31The thing is, when you're building any blockchain...
06:34You just hold the microphone closer to your...
06:36I'm being told that it's difficult to...
06:37Okay.
06:38Is it better now?
06:39Is it better?
06:40Yeah, I think it's better.
06:40When you're using any type of blockchain or building any type of blockchain,
06:44what you're going to do is you're going to replicate data,
06:48and you're going to distribute data and processes over many different nodes in a network.
06:54Whereas the old world uses a single centralized server to do things,
07:00the new decentralized world just creates a system where data and processes are just replicated
07:06over many different instances, and that, by design, also creates some level of redundancy,
07:11because you need to repeat the same thing over and over again.
07:14You need to store the same data over and over again.
07:16And obviously, that's going to carry some level of inefficiency.
07:19And then, of course, things can get worse once you start adding specific types of design to it.
07:26For example, if you decide to use Ethereum to build your WebTree application,
07:33Ethereum is running on what we know as proof-of-work mining.
07:36We've all read about that.
07:37And then things get really great.
07:39More processing, more energy.
07:41Well, if you add mining to any blockchain, what's happening is that...
07:46Well, I don't have enough time to explain all the mining.
07:49To simplify, mining is basically making your computer process something for the network,
07:55which takes energy.
07:56Yeah, well, of course.
07:57I mean, if you're adding new blocks to a blockchain that uses proof-of-work mining,
08:01what effectively happens is that all the machines in that network
08:04are effectively playing a massive game of guess the number.
08:07In the case of Bitcoin, they're making 200 quintillion guesses every second of the day.
08:13And the purpose of that is to, you know, if they guess correctly,
08:16they get to create the next block for the blockchain.
08:18But obviously, just generating all those guesses takes up a huge amount of energy
08:23on top of the redundancy that we already have in blockchain anyways.
08:26And climate change is a concern that we all take here very seriously.
08:29So is there any solution to that?
08:31Because we do see the enthusiasm.
08:32And I don't think that blockchain is going to be slowed down.
08:35I mean, you can correct me if you think otherwise, despite what you just told us.
08:40So is there a way to live with it in a way that would make it more energy efficient?
08:43For example, in cryptocurrency, I understand that there are many farms,
08:48computer farms, server farms that go further up in the cold north
08:50so that there's less cooling that they need to do.
08:53But I mean, once it's decentralized, I don't know if you can still control
08:56where in the world it actually goes.
08:57But are there solutions to make processing more energy efficient or in colder places?
09:02Yes, there are, but only in a limited way.
09:05Because the thing is, the proof of work that I just mentioned,
09:08that is used on popular networks like Bitcoin and Ethereum,
09:11that's something you can fix.
09:13That's something that can be replaced.
09:15And in Ethereum, they're actively working on that.
09:17They want to get rid of that energy intensive mining process
09:20and replace it with a more sustainable alternative known as proof of stake.
09:24and if they implement it, they can reduce their energy need by a factor of 10,000.
09:28Okay.
09:29Which is huge.
09:30But the thing is that there is a limit to how efficient blockchain can become
09:34simply because in every case where you're building a blockchain,
09:37you are always going to be distributing data over many different nodes in a network.
09:41And that's just by design.
09:44And actually, the more, the better.
09:46The more...
09:47Yeah.
09:47So if I understand correctly, if I can summarize,
09:49you're saying that by definition, once we decentralize using blockchain,
09:52we use many more computers, which means much more processing,
09:55more energy consumption.
09:56We can maybe make it more efficient over time,
09:59but it will never be as energy efficient as the old-fashioned central system used to be.
10:04Yeah.
10:04And if I can make it really tangible, right now we have Visa,
10:09the largest payment provider, and they have two data centers.
10:12One serves to do the daily operation, one as a backup.
10:16If Visa was a blockchain, we would need the same data center,
10:19maybe hundreds of thousands of times just to decentralize it
10:22because you need to do the exact same data storage
10:25and the exact same processes over and over again.
10:27Okay.
10:27So it's good to have this caveat in mind.
10:29We're going to continue to speak about the advantages of blockchain,
10:31but it's good to keep it in the back of our minds.
10:33Maybe one solution is once we all switch to renewable energies,
10:36it won't really matter how much we consume, but we're not there yet.
10:39I'd like to go back to this side of the desk
10:43and ask you about the benefits and advantages that made you switch.
10:47So you did mention the data security, that it was more secure.
10:51I understood you said that the decentralized nature of the platform
10:55made the ownership model also different.
10:57Were there any other reasons or other factors to keep in mind
11:01for companies who are considering to switch
11:03from centralized to blockchain technologies?
11:06It's a question to me.
11:08Either of you, maybe to start with Gwen,
11:11it might be easier for you to answer
11:12and you can give us an answer from a public sector perspective.
11:17So when we look at decentralization,
11:19we have more transparency, we have more ownership
11:23because one of the key things in a web tool world is that
11:27individually we create a lot of data as individual consumers,
11:31but we don't own that.
11:32It's, again, owned by Facebook, Twitter, what have you.
11:35Centralized platforms.
11:37In the decentralized world, there is a much better way
11:40where you can share the growth of the platform,
11:46of the organization, of the value of the product
11:48with everyone else.
11:50So I give you an example.
11:51In the music space,
11:53CoreWrite is a music project that's built on BNB chain.
11:57And what they do is that they allow music celebrities
12:01to, for the first time, really collaborate
12:04and share the, again, the growth of their work with their fans.
12:09So CoreWrite just finished a, for the first time,
12:13a campaign with Alan Walker,
12:15one of the world's most famous DJs.
12:17And Alan Walker collaborated with his fans
12:20to create for the upcoming release of Unity.
12:24And that 3,000 fans or something event,
12:26each contributing a different,
12:27like, I think some contributed a drum beat or something,
12:30you know, and they all basically came together
12:32to co-create something.
12:34So I think there's beauty of it
12:35because for the first time now,
12:36there's a very tangible way of tracking your contribution
12:40as an individual consumer, data producer, in that sense.
12:44And it's a very tangible way for you to also, again,
12:46participate and get some value.
12:49And that's very useful
12:50because that's indeed in the core of Web3,
12:52this idea that it's not the platform that owns the data,
12:54but it's the users who own their own data.
12:57From a public perspective,
12:59any other reasons why government should consider
13:01switching to blockchain?
13:02Maybe also quickly responding to Alex
13:05and the energy usage part is,
13:07of course, government systems are not similar to Visa, right?
13:11So because Visa is a highly, highly transactional system,
13:13like card payments,
13:14they're happening a million times a second.
13:16But when we think about public use cases,
13:19like land registry, for example,
13:21a piece of land is probably bought and sold
13:23maybe once in 10 years,
13:24maybe once in 20 years.
13:26So it's just the nature of the use case is different,
13:28which helps a little bit.
13:29And also that public services on blockchain
13:33usually are not in public chains,
13:34they are in private chains.
13:35So that also helps, of course,
13:37in terms of energy use.
13:38So maybe that's common to the energy use part of Alex before.
13:43And maybe, indeed, back to you, Alex,
13:45I mean, you're looking at the ethical externalities
13:49of technology in general,
13:50if I understand correctly.
13:51You did tell us about the negative one
13:52of the environment when it comes to blockchain.
13:55Gwen is telling us about the new model of ownership.
13:57Can we compensate?
13:59I mean, can we say that there's a downside
14:01on the environment,
14:02but at least a more empowering model here for users
14:04in terms of their ownership,
14:06of their rights, of their privacy,
14:07et cetera, et cetera.
14:08How do you measure,
14:10how do you factor in the different elements
14:12of a new technology which has externalities,
14:13which are some positive and some negative?
14:16Well, it's complicated.
14:17And I think whenever people look at any use case
14:21on blockchain,
14:22they are typically very concerned about privacy
14:25because the thing is that by default,
14:29blockchains are supposed to be open,
14:32public, transparent systems.
14:34But when it comes to personal data,
14:36you don't want that to be all open
14:38and transparent in a lot of cases.
14:40If you're, for example, healthcare data,
14:44that's not something you want to share with everyone.
14:46So that's not something you want to have everyone
14:48being able to look into that on a public blockchain.
14:51Okay, can we insist on that for a second?
14:53Because decentralized doesn't mean
14:54that anybody has access to my data.
14:56It can still be confidential.
14:58It's just that the way it's being secured,
15:00which is being centralized, no?
15:01Decentralized.
15:02Well, this is the thing.
15:03This really depends on what you're building
15:05and how you set it up.
15:06And obviously, most companies are not just going to put
15:10someone's real private data on top of a blockchain.
15:13You're going to use encryption.
15:14You're going to try and secure that information.
15:17But the thing is, you have to keep in mind
15:19that you're working with an open system.
15:21So, and also a system that is potentially immutable.
15:26So if you're putting something on there
15:27and things didn't really go the way you intended,
15:31then you're stuck with it.
15:33So you still think it's more risky?
15:35It can be.
15:37It's something you have to,
15:39you have to keep it in mind
15:40when you're designing your system.
15:41It doesn't have to be when it's up and running.
15:44I think I'm finally getting my first disagreement
15:46on my panel, which is very exciting.
15:48So do you agree that the blockchain security
15:51could be actually less safe than the traditional one?
15:55It's a spectrum.
15:57Again, it really depends on how you're setting it up.
15:59So at its core, blockchain is literally,
16:01by definition, transparent, right?
16:03Everyone can see.
16:05I always give the analogy as to how all of us here
16:07are almost contributing, writing in real time
16:10on a Google Excel, right?
16:11We're seeing real time updates, very simplistically, right?
16:14So it's transparent.
16:16So I think when we talk about privacy and security,
16:18it really depends on your setup.
16:19There are many different ways to look at that.
16:21Okay.
16:22From your perspective,
16:23because I understood that the reason
16:24why you switched to blockchain to begin with
16:25was your assumption that that would be a safer way
16:28of handling your citizens' data.
16:31But also then,
16:32we have to go back a little bit in time
16:34because it really works well
16:35if you have a strong digital identity in the first place,
16:38which is something that we've had since 2002.
16:40So, you know, by the time blockchain came along,
16:43this was like a pretty good marriage actually between the two.
16:46But yeah, if you don't have a strong digital identity system
16:49and somehow then need to just rely on sort of wallet addresses
16:53and not knowing who's behind what,
16:54then of course, yeah, all kinds of issues can arise.
16:58Can I jump a little bit back,
17:00kind of all related to the topic regarding energy usage, right?
17:03So something that BNB chain we do
17:06is that we have a slightly different system
17:08compared to Ethereum, for example, and Bitcoin.
17:11So for us, we have...
17:15So Dan, you use a great example,
17:16have many computers mining and contributing,
17:19like computing the problem.
17:20So for us, for BNB chain,
17:22we have less of a need for that.
17:23So where we really see the future of blockchain technologies
17:27is not the fact that the whole world should be decentralized.
17:30I mean, I don't think that should be the most efficient way.
17:32I don't think every single thing should be.
17:34I still think there's a place for centralization.
17:36There's a place for maybe maximally 100% decentralized, sure.
17:41But I think we're in the middle where we're super interested in
17:43and where we think is most viable is CDFI,
17:47centralized, decentralized finance,
17:49which underlies the kind of infrastructure.
17:51Because when you think about it this way,
17:53is that if you're very purist about it,
17:55okay, you stay in your own theoretical 100%.
17:58But BNB chain, how we again kicked off again from Binance
18:01in September 2020 is that
18:03we saw Ethereum, again, OG of blockchains
18:06and programmability, amazing work.
18:08Let's provide developers with more choice.
18:11Because it was, you know, it's whatever the reasons you said,
18:15you know, it's expensive as well.
18:17It's energy, not super efficient.
18:19So for us, it's about giving the Web3 world choice
18:23in terms of what technologies you can use.
18:25So for us, it's more efficient, to put it simply.
18:29So what I'm hearing is basically that it's difficult
18:30to put blockchain in one category
18:33and that it really, really depends how you use it,
18:35saying it's good or bad or safer
18:36or more energy efficient or less.
18:41it really depends.
18:43You wanted to come in?
18:45Yeah, I'm sort of thinking about blockchain
18:47as a solution for burden of proof, basically.
18:51So there are so many things in the world
18:53where you constantly have to prove
18:54that you are who you are,
18:56who you say you are,
18:57that you owe what you owe, etc.
18:58So this is just sort of getting harder and harder
19:01in the real world.
19:03And this is something that really the technology
19:04should be able to actually help with.
19:08And then certain professions maybe also will sort of disappear.
19:13So on the way here, I was driving past a notary office
19:16and I was thinking, what does a notary do?
19:19Oftentimes they just...
19:20In Estonia, not much because everything is online.
19:22In other countries, maybe they still have a job
19:24for the time being.
19:25But it's actually interesting
19:26because my next question was indeed about
19:28what other uses, exciting uses, do we see?
19:30So we mentioned the financial world,
19:32obviously, with cryptocurrency, etc.
19:33You mentioned public services,
19:35where Estonia is kind of the outlier and the exception
19:37because most governments, I don't think, are there yet.
19:40You mentioned music.
19:41Any other interesting uses that we should keep in mind?
19:44And if the audience knows of online or here,
19:46knows of interesting ones,
19:47feel free to add them in the chat
19:50that are worth mentioning?
19:52Well, I'm thinking DAOs, of course, right?
19:55Decentralized Autonomous Organizations.
19:56And I think there we have something which is enough new
20:00and enough old for this to really thrive
20:02because, in a way, most of our countries have had cooperatives
20:06and in the more ancient times we had syndicates.
20:10So like a DAO is basically a syndicate
20:12which is scaled up by a factor of 10.
20:13So I think this is something that probably we'll see more of.
20:19Alex?
20:20Yeah, you know, I think we're getting really close
20:22to a very fundamental question here,
20:24which is when do you really need Web3
20:26or when do you really need blockchain technology?
20:29And I think that the answer to that is not too complicated
20:33because if you think about it,
20:34this technology was ultimately designed to create trust.
20:38And the thing is, how do you create trust?
20:41Well, you create trust by decentralizing the process,
20:44distributing a process over many distant nodes
20:46so you're not reliant on a single party to do the work.
20:49So what you're effectively doing
20:51is you're taking out the intermediary.
20:53And if we're reading about blockchain decentralization,
20:56it's always about we're going to replace this intermediary,
20:59that intermediary with a decentralized application.
21:02But the thing is, that also works the other way around.
21:05If you have a decentralized application,
21:07you can also always replace it with an intermediary.
21:11To go back.
21:12Yeah, you can go two ways.
21:14An intermediary can also take the role of a decentralized application.
21:18But the thing is, do you have an intermediary
21:21that you can trust to do the work?
21:23And I think this is the fundamental question
21:24of where do you need blockchain technology?
21:27Because if you have a party that you trust,
21:30if everyone here is using Visa
21:32and everyone likes to use Visa and trust Visa,
21:35yeah, okay, just let Visa do the work
21:36because they only need a single data center to do the work
21:39and it's pretty efficient.
21:40Well, we just had three sessions on cybersecurity
21:41and we know that nobody is immune, Visa included.
21:44Well, that's where things start to shift.
21:48If you're, for some reason, can be any reason,
21:51don't trust Visa to do the work,
21:53then you might want to consider,
21:56okay, maybe I need a decentralized application for this
21:59because Visa is vulnerable, Visa can be hacked,
22:03they can be, you know...
22:04So you're saying that blockchain can be justified
22:06as the right solution in places where there's lack of trust,
22:11that's where you would make that switch
22:12and if there's no need to replace trust,
22:15then we can go back to the...
22:17Yeah, I mean, if everyone just feels comfortable
22:20with the provider they're using,
22:22then you have no reason to use a decentralized application.
22:24But if for some reason you don't feel that way
22:26or if you don't have access,
22:27I think that's also something to keep in mind
22:29because there are plenty of places in the world
22:31where authorities are corrupt,
22:34you can't trust authorities
22:35or the financial system is just not in place
22:38to be able to help you.
22:40In that case, decentralization might be the only way to go.
22:45So our next session is indeed focusing on decentralization,
22:48but I'd like to ask you, for me,
22:49I'm sorry, the lack of trust that Alex just mentioned
22:52was a lack of trust against governments to begin with.
22:54No, I mean, cryptocurrency started in the aftermath
22:56of the financial crisis
22:58by people who said the financial sector disappointed us,
23:01the national banks disappointed us,
23:03governments disappointed us,
23:04and we can do it better,
23:05so we don't want this central point anymore.
23:07It was almost an anarchist perspective
23:09that gave birth to this technology.
23:11So I find it very interesting
23:13when governments like Estonia
23:14kind of finish that circle and say,
23:16okay, still a central, traditional, central state authority,
23:20but making use of the same technology.
23:23Technology being decentralized,
23:25power still being centralized.
23:27Do you agree?
23:28Did you also suffer?
23:29I mean, we've seen that across many Western democracies,
23:32the drop in trust in public institutions,
23:35and that's where I find it interesting
23:37from a philosophical perspective
23:39how governments are trying to kind of join the race
23:41and embrace the technology
23:42and say, we're still trustworthy.
23:43We're using the same technologies.
23:46Trust us.
23:46We're going in the next session,
23:48talk about even digital currencies by central banks
23:50that are also trying to join that race.
23:53So do you agree with what Alex just said
23:55that blockchain is only there
23:56when there's a lack of trust?
23:58And otherwise...
23:59I definitely agree with Alex
24:00from the perspective that
24:01the solution should be better than the problem.
24:04So if the solution itself costs more
24:06than the problem does,
24:07then it's probably not a solution.
24:08Well, I guess every new technology brings its own...
24:10True.
24:11But regarding the trust question,
24:12actually, we have a really high trust in society
24:15towards the government, actually,
24:16and also the police and these kind of functions.
24:18So it's kind of like, in a way, surprising.
24:20So we did not really have...
24:21I think it's maybe deteriorated in the later years now
24:24with different political parties and whatnot.
24:28But back in the day, actually,
24:29the trust was very high.
24:30So it wasn't...
24:31This was not something that pushed you into it.
24:33But it's just a question of efficiency as well.
24:35Do you need a human being
24:36doing the job of a computer?
24:38And this trust service provision,
24:39if it can be done by a computer,
24:41then why not?
24:42What is the purpose of having a trust service provider
24:44who is a human person,
24:46like a notary, for example?
24:48And nothing against notaries.
24:49I'm just using it as an example,
24:50which is easy to kind of grasp.
24:52But this is a trust service provider.
24:54But if you can get the same job done
24:56by the computer, then why not?
24:57It's faster, usually more efficient,
24:59maybe if there's a million public nodes,
25:02then maybe not.
25:03But if it's a closed chain,
25:05then it's also more efficient
25:06for the user
25:07and also for the government to operate.
25:09Okay.
25:09Alex, do you think blockchain is here
25:10to stay, grow,
25:12become more present in our lives?
25:14Or do you think that the realization
25:16that you're bringing here
25:17and through your website
25:18is going to make some people wary
25:20of these externalities
25:21and might take away
25:23a little bit of the enthusiasm around it?
25:26Where are we in 10 years from now?
25:27Is blockchain everywhere?
25:28Well, I mean,
25:29the thing is that
25:30obviously blockchain technology
25:32is negatively impacted
25:34by the publicity
25:36around certain blockchains,
25:39being the public blockchains
25:41of Bitcoin and Ethereum,
25:43because those are just using
25:45excessive amount of resources
25:46to operate.
25:47And that reflects poorly
25:49on anyone working
25:52in the blockchain space,
25:53because if those two big ones
25:55are going down,
25:56then suddenly nobody wants
25:57blockchain anymore.
25:58I've seen this many times over
26:00as I was working
26:00as a consultant
26:01a couple of years ago,
26:02if the crypto assets...
26:05It's also a trend
26:06and a hype and people follow.
26:07Yeah, I guess so.
26:08It's really driven also by,
26:09hey, if we see
26:10the crypto asset market
26:11going down,
26:12we also see a deterioration
26:14interest for blockchain technology
26:15in general.
26:16So what's your best guess
26:17for the future?
26:17We're just recording this
26:18and we'll show it to you
26:19in 10 years.
26:20Well, the thing is,
26:22they're separate things.
26:23Blockchain technology
26:24is ultimately separate
26:26from very specific crypto assets
26:29and you can set this technology
26:31up in very different ways.
26:32And this technology
26:33is going to be around
26:35for a very long time.
26:37It's not going to go away.
26:39So your purpose
26:40in explaining to us
26:41the energy efficiency
26:43is to do what?
26:44To make it more efficient?
26:45Because you're saying
26:45it's not going to go away.
26:46You're not evangelizing
26:48against blockchain as such.
26:50You're saying realize
26:50what it actually means
26:51and let's find proper solutions
26:53even though you told me
26:53that by definition
26:54it will never be as efficient
26:55as what we had before.
26:56Yeah, what I'm doing
26:57is I'm urging people
26:58to think about
26:59the way they set up
27:00these systems
27:01and which systems
27:02they're going to use.
27:03Because if you are
27:04just going to mindlessly build
27:05on a public proof of work
27:07platform,
27:09then yeah,
27:09you are contributing
27:10to a pretty big
27:11environmental disaster.
27:12But I'm also telling people
27:14that's not the way
27:15it has to be.
27:16You have a lot of
27:16different design choices
27:18in how you set up
27:19this technology
27:20and you can do it
27:21in so many ways.
27:22You have different
27:23consensus mechanism.
27:24You can do public
27:25or somewhat private blockchains
27:27and depending on your choices
27:29things don't have to be that bad.
27:31But I'm just really
27:32trying to urge people
27:32to think about
27:33what they're doing
27:34in the first place.
27:35So that's a good segue
27:35for me to ask each of you
27:36about your vision
27:37of the future of blockchain.
27:39You're saying people
27:40be aware of the specific protocol,
27:42the specific technology
27:44that you're using
27:44on blockchain.
27:45some are much more
27:46energy efficient
27:47than others.
27:48So hopefully
27:48we will see a trend
27:49in that direction
27:50of blockchain learning
27:51to become more efficient
27:52than it is right now.
27:55Anything else you want to add
27:56before I turn to the other side
27:57about your vision
27:58of where we see
27:59or how we see blockchain
28:00in 5-10 years?
28:01I think that really captures it.
28:03I really expect people
28:04to build more
28:06responsible systems,
28:07to be mindful
28:08about the downsides
28:09and to try to account
28:11for that in whatever
28:12application they're building.
28:13so I hope that is going
28:14to be the way forward.
28:15Is blockchain going
28:16to be omnipresent
28:17everywhere we go
28:18in 5-10 years?
28:19Yes.
28:20Everybody will switch
28:21to blockchain?
28:21I love it.
28:22Yes.
28:23I am 100% maximalist
28:26in blockchain
28:26but again,
28:27back to my point,
28:28is it omnipresent
28:29everywhere
28:30and every single we do?
28:31I don't think so.
28:32Like if you take the example
28:33of dating apps,
28:34do you want your dating history
28:36and swiping history
28:37to be on a blockchain?
28:38Probably not.
28:39But that's where you confuse me
28:40because my understanding
28:41was that just because
28:42it's decentralized
28:43doesn't mean it's less safe.
28:44It just means
28:45that the hashing
28:46as it's called,
28:47that the way
28:47of protecting my data
28:49is done in a decentralized way
28:51but it's not necessarily
28:52easier to hack.
28:53Not necessarily easier
28:55to hack, yes.
28:56So in that sense,
28:57why do I care
28:57that my dating history
28:59is on a blockchain
28:59if nobody ever gets
29:01to see the messages?
29:02Maybe not the messages.
29:03And I hope my husband
29:03never watches this.
29:05So the key thing
29:06is that again,
29:06we go back to the points
29:08we made earlier.
29:09there are many different systems.
29:10So taking, you know,
29:11Alex talked about
29:12proof of work.
29:14BNB chain is proof
29:15of sticked authority, right?
29:17So again,
29:17it's a different system.
29:18So going back to your point
29:19regarding privacy and security,
29:21there are many different systems
29:22to cut it.
29:23So the swiping app joke
29:25is a semi-joke, right?
29:27Where if you take
29:28the transparency of blockchain
29:30to the very extreme,
29:31I don't think many
29:32should be there.
29:33I don't think many
29:33will be there.
29:34And then again,
29:35you have a whole spectrum
29:36of different levels
29:37of data transparency,
29:39data privacy,
29:41security.
29:41You do have,
29:42you...
29:42So as a rule of thumb,
29:44what should be for you
29:45on blockchain
29:45and what shouldn't?
29:46What kind of services
29:48does it make sense
29:48to decentralize?
29:50So...
29:51Or maybe more interesting,
29:51which ones you don't?
29:52So you were saying
29:53that in some cases,
29:54and I'm not sure I understood
29:55your example on dating,
29:56why is dating a bad example
29:57for blockchain?
29:58So it may not be necessarily
30:00a bad example
30:01as a whole category.
30:02The idea is that
30:03when blockchain first came out,
30:05you know,
30:05everyone's like,
30:06everything's transparent,
30:07your data's transparent,
30:08using a very brute way
30:11of saying it,
30:12and would you want
30:13your dating swipes
30:15to be public?
30:16I guess we don't need
30:17to verify that
30:18each message is authentic
30:19as in the financial world.
30:20We don't need to...
30:21Maybe, exactly.
30:22So it's not as critical
30:23infrastructure as...
30:24Yeah, or like,
30:24the history of who you swipe.
30:26So maybe we don't want
30:26to pay the environmental costs
30:28for technology
30:29which is not critical.
30:30Exactly.
30:31So there are different
30:31new ones to that,
30:32exactly,
30:32to that point, right?
30:33So going back
30:34to your other question
30:35about what,
30:35concretely,
30:36what might be,
30:37what I think should be
30:38decentralized,
30:39Web3 or not Web3.
30:40So I really like identity.
30:42I think the ability
30:43to have a portable,
30:46soul-bound,
30:47digital identity
30:48for yourself
30:49where you can move
30:50from place to place,
30:51from application
30:52to application
30:53with your entire data
30:55is...
30:56We do have that
30:57on our next panel,
30:58but go on.
30:59This is not the page
31:00for the next panel.
31:00On our next panel,
31:01I know you didn't know,
31:02but our next panel
31:03is on decentralization
31:04including NFT domains.
31:06So indeed,
31:06how to take your identity
31:07from one platform
31:09to the other.
31:10Because the way
31:11I look at it right now
31:12is that, you know,
31:13we have our different
31:14passports,
31:15digital identity.
31:16In the Web2 world,
31:17we have our different
31:18social media profiles, right?
31:19And so again,
31:20in the Web3 world,
31:21we're able to think
31:22much more about
31:23the portability
31:24of your own data
31:25that you can leave
31:27a platform if you want to
31:28and move to another platform.
31:29So I think this is one...
31:30It's really the vision
31:31of Web3.
31:31That's one key thing.
31:33I mean,
31:33there are many other
31:33use cases as well.
31:35Larry, in the public sector,
31:36I mean,
31:36are you already looking
31:37to other...
31:38I mean,
31:38what percentage
31:39of the services today
31:40or the data
31:40of your citizens
31:41is today over here
31:41on blockchain
31:42and are there projects
31:43of making more
31:44with this technology
31:46in the public sector
31:46in Estonia?
31:48I don't know
31:49the exact percentage
31:49to be honest,
31:50but the way I'm kind of
31:51thinking about
31:52the future of this technology
31:53and how this is proceeding
31:55is a bit like,
31:56you know,
31:56we have had paper mail
31:57and then we invented
31:58a fax machine,
32:00but eventually
32:01it was kind of the same,
32:02just on a different medium
32:03and then email came along.
32:04But following your analogy,
32:06it basically means
32:06that this will be
32:07the new normal
32:07and we'll just get used
32:08to the fact that
32:09at least we're in the public sector...
32:10in the very early days, actually.
32:11Which goes in line
32:11with what Gwen was saying
32:12because if everything,
32:14my interaction
32:14with the public sector
32:15is my identity...
32:17And you can take it with you.
32:18Exactly.
32:19So any public office
32:20in Estonia that I go to,
32:21I will have to identify myself
32:23and the safest
32:23and most,
32:24not energy efficient,
32:25but maybe security efficient
32:27way of doing it
32:28would be using
32:29blockchain technology.
32:31So this is the trend
32:32for you in Estonia
32:32and you mentioned
32:33other countries following.
32:34Can you say which ones
32:35you see in that mindset as well?
32:37Yeah, well,
32:38I mean,
32:38in terms of programs
32:40similar to ours,
32:41I see Lithuania
32:43is launched...
32:44Your immediate neighbors?
32:45Well,
32:45almost immediate neighbors,
32:46but yeah,
32:47definitely, you know.
32:48Ah, there's lots of neighbors.
32:49Okay.
32:49Yes, yes.
32:50Can I bring up another example
32:51just because for us
32:52it's very fresh
32:53and I want to take away
32:53from Estonia.
32:54I'm also a digital resident.
32:56I collected my residency
32:58from an embassy here.
32:59Here in Paris?
33:01Yeah, in Paris.
33:01Yeah, I was living here then.
33:02So we have only Alex
33:03missing from the residency.
33:05Exactly, only Alex.
33:05So just to explain,
33:06you sign up online
33:07and then they do send you
33:08to the physical,
33:09real embassy of Estonia.
33:11You make an appointment
33:12and you pick up
33:12the card and the reader.
33:14And the USB.
33:15And the USB
33:15and that's the first
33:16and last time
33:16that you need to see,
33:17I think it's a bad thing,
33:18but to see an Estonian official
33:20that you do go
33:20through the embassy.
33:21Yeah.
33:22So I got mine in Berlin,
33:23but go on.
33:24But there is a physical
33:25biometrics involved
33:25so unfortunately,
33:26there is physical
33:27biometrics involved
33:28so that's why.
33:29That's true,
33:29they take your fingerprints.
33:32So one thing
33:33in digital identity
33:34is that actually
33:35last week,
33:36Binance,
33:37we announced something
33:39where Palau
33:41launched digital identities
33:42on BNB chain
33:43so that's also exciting
33:44for us.
33:45So again,
33:45Estonia led the way
33:46with digital residency
33:47years ago,
33:47again, fellow citizen.
33:49and we're seeing
33:50way more countries
33:53thinking about it.
33:54Interesting.
33:55So Alex,
33:56to follow the example
33:56of identity,
33:57sorry,
33:57I keep getting my ear
33:58torn away with my earpiece,
34:01do you think we'll see
34:01less of identity theft
34:02at least with this trend?
34:05I mean,
34:05for the time being,
34:06we're talking about
34:06one country of one million
34:07that is setting a new trend.
34:09I don't know if the whole world
34:10will follow,
34:10hopefully maybe,
34:11but assuming that we do,
34:13assuming that this becomes
34:14a new normal
34:15and we all become
34:17e-residents
34:18and we all get
34:18our digital identity
34:19from our governments,
34:20do you think that would
34:21at least make us safer?
34:24Well,
34:25it might change the way
34:26in which identities
34:26are stolen.
34:29The thing is,
34:30if I own something
34:33on a blockchain,
34:36my keys can still be stolen,
34:38my access keys
34:39can still be stolen
34:41depending on how
34:42I keep them.
34:42I can put my access keys
34:43on a piece of paper.
34:45Wait a second,
34:45can it be stolen?
34:46Because it's not a wallet,
34:47right?
34:47So, I mean,
34:47when you're an e-resident,
34:48I actually don't have access.
34:50By access keys,
34:50you mean passcodes?
34:52Right,
34:53the passcode.
34:53You can scribble it
34:54on the card,
34:54of course.
34:55No,
34:56but for digital ID,
34:57the whole idea
34:57is that it's tied
34:58to a wallet address,
34:59right?
34:59It's like an address.
35:01So,
35:01when I've had keys to that,
35:02so,
35:03take digital identity
35:04first out of the picture,
35:05right?
35:05Going down to
35:06Web3 wallet addresses,
35:08I've bought
35:10naming domains,
35:11right?
35:12.eth,
35:12and we have .BNB
35:13coming out as well.
35:14If I buy
35:15Gwen
35:16or Gwendolyn.eth,
35:19for example,
35:20if my wallet
35:21is hacked,
35:23someone could
35:23technically take away
35:24that domain.
35:25Ah,
35:26your domain.
35:27Yeah,
35:27as well,
35:27which is technically
35:28my identity,
35:29right?
35:29So,
35:29I think that's where,
35:30Alex,
35:30you're kind of going at
35:31in terms of getting
35:32your keys stolen
35:33and then that identity
35:34associated with that
35:35gets stolen as well,
35:36right, Alex?
35:37But isn't it entirely
35:38different because
35:39with cryptocurrency,
35:40there is that risk
35:41that you need to have
35:42either a physical
35:44printed or disk on key
35:45or someplace
35:45where you identify
35:46yourself and once
35:47somebody manages
35:48to compromise
35:49that identity,
35:50they can indeed
35:50take your money.
35:51But when it comes
35:52to an identity,
35:54I don't see how
35:55this would happen
35:55because as I was
35:56saying in the beginning,
35:57being an e-resident,
35:58I wasn't even aware
35:59of which technology
36:00you were using.
36:01It's all completely
36:01invisible to me.
36:03So,
36:03I mean,
36:03I don't know
36:04what would be
36:04the process.
36:05I mean,
36:05we have now
36:06three sessions
36:06on cybersecurity
36:07and actually
36:08someone this morning
36:09was using
36:09a hacker community.
36:10Maybe we should
36:11ask him at some point
36:12if his hackers
36:12can also use
36:13blockchain to inform
36:15governments
36:16on what the next
36:17risk is.
36:18But my starting point,
36:20what you said
36:20was that the original
36:21reason of switching
36:22was out of security.
36:24So,
36:24what are the loops?
36:25Are there other
36:26loopholes there?
36:27So,
36:27in that sense,
36:28digital identity
36:28is not equal
36:29to a wallet address,
36:30right?
36:30So,
36:31it's not something
36:32that you can hack into
36:33or steal away
36:34from somebody.
36:35So,
36:35if you happen
36:35to lose your card
36:36or if you happen
36:37to lose your passcode,
36:38they can always
36:38revoke that certificate.
36:40That certificate
36:40is no longer valid.
36:42So,
36:42whoever even tries
36:42to use that,
36:43even if they have
36:44your passcode,
36:44but not,
36:45they still can't use it.
36:46Have you had cases
36:47of identity theft
36:48since you started?
36:49Was that an issue?
36:51Not that I'm aware of,
36:53no.
36:54No.
36:55Interesting.
36:56Three minutes left.
36:58I'm just going
36:58to ask each of you
37:00about your vision
37:02of Web3.
37:02So,
37:02we spoke a lot
37:03about blockchain
37:05as the backbone
37:06of Web3.
37:08How enthusiastic
37:09are you
37:09about the next iteration
37:10of the internet?
37:11Is it happening
37:11or is it some kind
37:12of another buzzword
37:14that is for the idealists
37:16but is never going
37:17to happen?
37:18Are the incumbent
37:18going away
37:19and we're going
37:20to see in 5,
37:2010 years
37:21the big gaffer companies
37:22doing something else?
37:23Is the internet
37:24about to radically change?
37:25I'm not giving you
37:26much time
37:26so you can give me a...
37:29Web3 is quite a buzzword.
37:32Ultimately,
37:33everything is just
37:33technology to me.
37:34It's an evolution,
37:36right?
37:36There are certain
37:37step changes.
37:38I do think blockchain
37:38is a step change.
37:39So,
37:40it's incremental.
37:41It's not going
37:41to be overnight?
37:42No,
37:42it's technology
37:43but blockchain itself
37:44I do think
37:45is quite a step change.
37:46Again,
37:47the decentralization,
37:48ownership
37:48and stuff like that.
37:49So,
37:49I think that's beautiful
37:50in that.
37:51Okay,
37:51Larry?
37:51Well,
37:52I think it's going
37:53to change fundamentally
37:54how we have to prove
37:55what we own
37:56and what we have.
37:57So,
37:57you believe that
37:57it's the change
37:58and the new
37:58iterations of rights
37:59these kind of things.
38:00I think that will
38:01change fundamentally,
38:02yes.
38:02For you,
38:03because you spoke
38:03a lot about
38:04the environment
38:05but I was trying
38:05to push you
38:06in the direction
38:06of other societal
38:09externalities
38:09that might be positive.
38:10Do you see
38:11a positive wave
38:12coming at us
38:13when it comes
38:13to our liberties,
38:14freedom of speech,
38:15data with Web3?
38:17Well,
38:18I think I already
38:19mentioned that
38:19there might be
38:20some cases
38:21where this type
38:22of technology
38:23can really help
38:24especially when
38:25you don't have
38:27any trusted parties
38:28available to do
38:29something for you.
38:30So,
38:31for example,
38:31if you're dealing
38:32with a corrupt government
38:33or if there is
38:34just no financial
38:35system at all
38:36then,
38:37yeah,
38:37of course,
38:38Web3 is going
38:39to be useful
38:40to you.
38:41But the thing is
38:42that's limited
38:43because in our world
38:45let's say
38:46here in Europe
38:47or in the US
38:49there's probably
38:50less of a need
38:51for that type
38:52of technology
38:53because most people
38:54tend to trust
38:54institutions
38:55and even in
38:56the crypto world
38:57we see that.
38:59Trust institutions
38:59but maybe trusting
39:00less and less
39:01the major
39:02digital platforms.
39:03Not to mention
39:04some of the sponsors
39:05here at Viva Tech
39:06that are showing here
39:07but yeah,
39:08where we put the data
39:09today is where
39:09in Google
39:10and Facebook
39:10and I just did
39:11mention them
39:11you know,
39:12the GAFA companies
39:13so Web3.
39:15Yeah,
39:15we have seen
39:15multiple
39:16scandals
39:17affecting
39:18very large
39:19technology players
39:20but the thing is
39:21people are still
39:21using those
39:22and that's also
39:23because they provide
39:24a certain level
39:25of convenience
39:27that is just
39:27not easily
39:29replicated elsewhere
39:30and I guess
39:31that's why people
39:31keep on using
39:32those servers
39:32and also because
39:33there's just already
39:34a big network
39:35and there's also
39:36a network effect
39:37there and the fact
39:37that all your friends
39:38are still using
39:39the platform
39:40so it's hard
39:41getting away from that.
39:43With that
39:43we'll have to conclude
39:44I feel like
39:44there's a wave
39:45of enthusiasm
39:45with the highest
39:46at your end
39:47Gwen
39:47and then kind of
39:48decreasing as it
39:49reaches the other
39:49side of the desk
39:50but thank you so much
39:52Gwen,
39:54Lowry and Alex
39:55this was really
39:55insightful
39:56let's give them
39:57a round of applause
39:58this was our first round
40:00on Web3
40:02we're going to take
40:03a few technical minutes
40:04to reset the studio
40:05and we'll be back
40:06to talk about
40:07decentralization
40:08don't go away.
Commentaires