- 7 weeks ago
Educator and author, Nate Marshall, sits down to chat with us about his brand new novel, Finna.
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00:00:00good morning afropunk beautiful people this is porsha at penguin random house and i am thrilled
00:00:21to join you with another brilliant author for our closing session at afropunks rock and read
00:00:27thank you again afropunk for letting us join you this year um next year may it be in person
00:00:33um today we're here with the incredible author and poet nate marshall welcome nate thank you for
00:00:39joining us oh what's up thank you so much for having me oh oh yes um obviously i have to give
00:00:45you as much time as possible but i also need to give you your props because props are due so i'm
00:00:49going to just introduce folks to who you are um nate marshall is an award-winning author editor
00:00:56poet playwright performer educator speaker rapper how you do this all i do not know
00:01:02he's assistant professor of english at colorado college and himself a proud alum of chicago public
00:01:09schools the university of michigan and vanderbilt university nate has received fellowships from
00:01:15cave canham the poetry foundation and the university of michigan his book wild hundreds received the
00:01:21black caucus of the american library association's award for poetry book of the year
00:01:26and the great lakes college association's new writer award he is also an editor of this is very
00:01:32cool the breakbeat poets new american poetry in the age of hip-hop and he co-curates the breakbeat
00:01:38poet series for haymarket books nate co-wrote the play no blue memories the life of wendeline brooks
00:01:44with eve hewing and the audio drama bruh rabbit and the fantastic telling of remington ellis esquire
00:01:52his last rap album groan came out in 2015 with his group daily lyrical product and his latest book
00:02:00fena went on sale this summer published by one world random house and this is only a part of what
00:02:06you do um and have accomplished so again thank you so much nate for taking time from all of this to
00:02:13join us today no thank you for having me um so okay to kick us off would you treat us to an excerpt
00:02:21from your latest masterpiece uh cool cool yeah i'll read this um before we were talking about like new
00:02:30york and rap and whatever so this is a poem for jeston because you asked for one when i told you to
00:02:40stop jumping on me that night as i was writing because your favorite jay-z song is december 4th
00:02:47for his mother's voice and jay's story about his life because i told you the first song
00:02:54you heard in your young life was i used to love her in the hospital room with my big headphones
00:03:01over your soft head because you asked me your first word and i said i didn't know
00:03:07and i could have told you a good lie and made that a small poem we shared because when you spend
00:03:15the night you take my clothes and drape them over yourself like a prayer shawl because you clown me
00:03:22to my friends and impersonate me in a way that says i see you uncle because you asked me if i love all
00:03:29books since i have so many and i say only the ones that tell us who we are because i ask you
00:03:37what i should write about and you say write about us cool wow there's a reason that you've received
00:03:50all the awards that you have that you have the deals that you have in place like what a gift
00:03:55and thank you for sharing it with us um that inspires me to kind of skip around where i was
00:04:03thinking about our questions like why do you write like where does this come from for you how is it
00:04:08that when someone close to you asks you a question your response to it is in poetic form how did that
00:04:16happen yeah you know i don't i think i have first and foremost i would say i'm a reader um and that
00:04:26really comes from like from my maternal grandmother who sort of helped raise me um she was a librarian
00:04:31she was she came from montgomery alabama and like moved up north first to detroit and to chicago
00:04:38um but yeah when i was a kid she was just always putting books in my hand and always just like
00:04:45letting me sort of explore language in that way regardless um yeah like i'm i was i was telling
00:04:54someone the other day about like i remember like being at camp like far too young maybe i was like 12 or
00:05:01something i remember because nelly was popular so had to be about that age and um reading the book
00:05:10pimp by iceberg slim and like walking around with it at like summer camp at northwestern which is like
00:05:16if you know anything about that book it's like not a book a 12 year old really should like not at all
00:05:21and in public you're showing people that you're reading it in fact i think i had the book was like
00:05:26it was kind of an ill color it was like pink and brown and i had a shirt that kind of matched it
00:05:32that this is why i remember the nelly thing because the shirt said pimp juice and it had a little card
00:05:38and it said good to the last drop and so i so i would like coordinate my book with my fit but i just
00:05:44remember like wait that was sort of my grandma's way she was like look if you want to read something
00:05:49i will make it available to you because i believe like reading to be a sort of um to be a kind of
00:05:57unmitigated good even if i you know i personally don't love what you're reading or wouldn't read it
00:06:03myself like the fact that you're exploring like that has an inherent value um so yeah i mean i think
00:06:09that's sort of where at least the initial like root of it comes and then did you grow up always
00:06:17excelling in english like and your teachers constantly poured into that gift and thereby
00:06:23you were able to develop the art of writing it for yourself yeah i mean i had great teachers um
00:06:29especially like my kind of middle school english teacher mrs cap we still we still talk i like sent
00:06:34her whenever i like could produce a new book i always like mail it to her now um yeah so yeah i mean
00:06:44it was definitely it was definitely that though the one part of uh of like school that i never
00:06:50understood like english specifically was pronunciations given where we started i'm
00:06:57cracking up yeah i think it's like maybe because i like grew up listening too much rap and i was like
00:07:03yeah you could pronounce the word this way or that way i don't know like you know i understand the
00:07:08word isn't you know philadelphia but sometimes like you know black thought will pronounce it
00:07:14philadelphia and like that seems as bad like you know what he's talking about so it's not like a
00:07:19wrong pronunciation not who am i to tell black thought that he is wrong and pronunciating pretty
00:07:25much anything right absolutely right right just who am i to tell black thought anything anything
00:07:32period fair point yeah um okay just because i really that's like my first natural ish opportunity
00:07:43for me to ask this question i'll do it this way is black thought in your top five mcs
00:07:50oh absolutely 100 black thought to me okay like my here's my i don't even think it's a hot take i
00:07:58think it's just like the correct opinion i think black thought is objectively the greatest mc
00:08:04in history i think i think he's just i just think that's it like i don't know anybody has like
00:08:12like the roots don't have a bad album that's crazy like like what what who do you we know who
00:08:20has produced that much stuff and all of it has been like quality right
00:08:26come on he's great live he like yeah i mean like a lot of rappers won't get on tracks with him
00:08:35because they're like hold on man like
00:08:36who else accompanies him in your i split it up i would give you top fives if you were curating this
00:08:48list in 1999 and top five if you were curating it now with no one on that original list
00:08:55oh wow that's super oh damn okay huh okay i like that question all right top five in 99
00:09:05all right um it's because oh not see 99 is hard because 99 is like before
00:09:17like it's like it's pre-blueprint jay-z it's like pre like naz's kind of re-rise right with the uh
00:09:26with stillmatic or whatever so that so you you just miss a lot of good things um all right my top five
00:09:34in 99 i'll say um rock him biggie um ice cube uh the miseducation is 99 so lauren hill yes
00:09:49uh common interesting because you could still have black thought in the 99 version unless you're
00:10:06saving him for the 2020 list i'm saving him because i because like for me like a lot of the
00:10:12i mean yeah the roots have a have a legendary run in the 90s but i sort of love like that second
00:10:18the second run like kind of right before and like when they do the death jam deal
00:10:23so everything kind of from phrenology through i guess up to present but specifically i'm thinking like
00:10:33what is it phrenology through undone is like a kind of legendary and and like thought has all the like
00:10:41extremes of thought joints too so i love those all right so now my 2001 uh gotta be kendrick black
00:10:49thought um man kendrick black thought this is hard you saved jay-z from the 90s yeah i guess i'll say jay
00:11:03okay that's fine yeah jay's fine
00:11:05i love jay-z there's a lot of bad jay-z music if we're being yes if we're being honest honest i can't
00:11:17believe i said this i'm admitting this publicly yeah so you know that's like it's hard it's hard
00:11:22you know whatever jay-z um under 3000 and
00:11:28scarface we'll go scarface okay midwest stand up like i don't i don't know a whole lot of new yorkers
00:11:39who put face like we will definitely give props and celebrate influence and even thinking especially
00:11:47from a deaf jam connection like deaf jam south like for sure but rising to the level of the top five
00:11:55that's that's rarity yeah that's because new yorkers don't listen to nobody why do you have to i mean
00:12:02no except for like educational purposes and be wonderful citizens of the world but like if it's
00:12:08happening on your block happening on your block i mean look that's fair look i if i if i were a new
00:12:15yorker perhaps you would not be able to tell me anything either but it's just funny because new
00:12:20yorkers always like they're just like shocked that that things happen other places
00:12:26it's kind of my favorite thing like because it's so like like new york is so cosmopolitan it's such an
00:12:35international place that it almost becomes like provincial again because people like don't know
00:12:42you know they're like if this shit is in jersey it's like too far for them to like
00:12:47which is which is a profile and new yorkers don't understand it but like that's a profoundly
00:12:53small town way of like seeing the world it's like wow you learned about my city
00:12:58wow you're so right and we don't because we think of ourselves as the capital of the world
00:13:06so there's nothing small about it huh okay i'm appreciating this yeah i love look i love new yorkers
00:13:16i i but y'all yeah new yorkers are like comical i love them
00:13:21okay so we know who your tops are who are your top poets your top five black poets oh man okay damn
00:13:34you know nobody ever asked me this question maybe because like it'll hurt people's feelings i don't
00:13:39know well okay and also i'll say this right like we're saying top five as a convention this is top
00:13:46five coming to mind right now i don't care it's fine i look i like i look i'm not here to make friends
00:13:52it's fine um i mean everybody knows i love them god bless i okay um i mean gwendolyn brooks for me is
00:14:00like she is like yeah that's like she's the greatest poet i think the united states has ever
00:14:09produced that's my humble opinion um damn okay brooks lucille clifton um damn
00:14:23i mean lexon hughes just for like yeah i think he's important um man
00:14:33man see it's good the historical stuff is easier because people can't get mad at you
00:14:41right when you start naming like people living temporary and it's like ah
00:14:46and then i'll probably say
00:14:51terrence hayes danez smith like
00:14:55is that right is that is that how i feel
00:15:00i'll go with that i kind of think like danez for for for like our generation
00:15:08has to be that sort of person at least at this point because they're so like
00:15:13so prolific and just so fucking good and like i think have a particular
00:15:20they're working in a particular tradition that for me is like
00:15:29like really sits at the center of what black poetry is like thinking about like
00:15:34the kind of influence of like a deeply held spirituality um thinking about like the secular
00:15:40and the sacred like all that kind of stuff like and the shit is just funky like that like like that
00:15:46for me is is like the sort of like black creative tradition in this country like period indones
00:15:53like embodies that in a particular way um yeah and hayes is just like
00:16:00you know i mean i don't know like he's just he's just important he's just so important um like he's
00:16:08maybe been the kind of if if you had to pick one which is sort of silly but like if you had to pick one i would
00:16:16say like he has maybe defined black poetics in the 21st century more than anyone else
00:16:23yeah oh yeah whatever so you highlighted two things one being we're shifting the paradigm right
00:16:35from there having to be one to no we're rejecting that we know that there is room for everyone at the
00:16:43table and so now that's making me rethink even the top fives right and that well if we're moving away
00:16:51from there's only room for these five into they have paved a way for us all to be able to deliver
00:16:58this art that is deeply meaningful relevant and can connect us to something bigger um then does that
00:17:08also have to shift um and then the second thing being around so i just stated it out there top five
00:17:16black poets right and then you talk about the black creative tradition especially with that
00:17:21intersection of the sacred and the daily um do you consider yourself a black poet black author black
00:17:31editor black educator first or do you consider yourself a poet an activist an author who just
00:17:39happens to be black and writes with that pov yeah um that's a good question you know i don't i was
00:17:48me me and my partner we were watching um this interview with robert hayden who who might who
00:17:55could be could if he's right outside the top five i love hayden but like i think you know and he and he
00:18:02he famously kind of like pushes back against this notion of like i'm a black poet he's like i'm a poet
00:18:07who happens to be afro-american is his preferred parlance but like i'm cool you know whatever i'm cool
00:18:16i'm black like that's what it is like it's fine um but i do think
00:18:23yeah so i'm i i i do think that i step into the work from like that particular perspective
00:18:31and and it's also just like true that that's how people are gonna like read the stuff regardless right
00:18:36um yeah like when i was in undergrad and in workshops you know people would be like oh
00:18:45this is so gritty and this is so raw i'm like it's a love poem what are you talking about or like this is
00:18:49i mean cool whatever um and so there are ways that you know unless i was like publishing anonymously
00:18:58people are always sort of reading identity into the work and you know i guess with me like my
00:19:07my impulse then is not to like shrink from that or to be like uh whatever but it's but i'm kind of
00:19:15like and maybe this is because i come from a performance tradition i'm like okay cool let me
00:19:18play on these expectations or let me like think about how i can like that's another thing i can use right
00:19:26um you know so like there's a poem here in the book called african-american literature
00:19:31that sort of yeah that sort of speaks to that that speaks to like the way that people
00:19:37um you know read all this other stuff into the work whether or not it's there or even if it is there
00:19:43like um over emphasizing it because that because they're eager to read african-american work as
00:19:53sociological rather than really artistic um but i don't you know i don't know i can't really
00:20:01control it it ain't got nothing to do with me so god bless him
00:20:04so part of it the the way that it's come up and the discourse has changed right it's changed in
00:20:12my business over the past couple of years right and i think that certainly there was a time
00:20:18where well i'll say it in the positive right now we can definitely think of blackness in particular
00:20:24and the american experience of blackness as en vogue in a certain way right um that wasn't always
00:20:31the case and actually there are some and paul coates and ta-nazzy coates's father and i've had
00:20:36the opportunity to discourse about this um and the kind of cycle of black popularity in the american
00:20:44zeitgeist right and there's a point when it's not at its peak where celebrating someone as a black
00:20:51author there are people who can respond to you and say well that is making your market too small
00:20:56right you are then saying that that is niche and we're not necessarily inviting everybody to the table
00:21:04to experience this art if we deem it black first and so that's why i like asking this question
00:21:11say that again why does everybody have to experience i mean the thing that that i think
00:21:17about is like endemic and what you're saying is about that kind of limiting audience thing
00:21:22is that i mean one well yeah the idea it's the idea that like a black audience is somehow less
00:21:30valuable than other audiences which i which i don't think is true like i don't know you know
00:21:37so you know and also also like this this uh i also think the the or the thing i would take issue
00:21:49with with that framing as well is this idea that um other if something is marked as marked or marketed
00:21:57as specifically black that other people will somehow not access it and like actually one of the
00:22:04for me like one of the real through lines of blackness in this country right and kind of the
00:22:10western world is that everyone sort of thinks they own it or can like say something authoritative about
00:22:17it in ways that um i don't think happen with other kind of subject positions other kind of cultural
00:22:22positions so naturally so easily and maybe this comes from like you know being being this sort of
00:22:30um this you know kind of foundational to how this country thinks about black people is
00:22:37um a set of individuals or you know a sort of collective mass of people who produce stuff
00:22:45for everyone else right or for the uses of everyone else and so even if i say look look this is hella
00:22:53black this is the blackest thing on earth nobody else should read it if anything that will only like
00:22:59make more of the the sort of quote unquote mainstream audience or or non-black folks be like oh where
00:23:05what do y'all up to over there like let me see let me read it let me da da da da so you know yeah i mean
00:23:11like what is what is hip-hop but like you know this space of where like a lot of like like black folks
00:23:19both like you know african-american throughout the diaspora are like making stuff and then other people
00:23:25are like become interested in like consuming that that stuff and that experience even when it has
00:23:31nothing to do with them right even when it has nothing to do with like how they you know have
00:23:37come to know the world or see the world or whatever like you know
00:23:40okay i i i fully agree with you um and i think that's certainly representative of changes
00:23:52in who the curators are in certain media spaces right if that had been uh well anyway i'm gonna
00:24:03stop before i have myself in trouble if i can i'll keep going please do i think the thing that happens
00:24:11now maybe is that this is is that the because the curation is like a bit better right because there
00:24:19are folks like yourself and like nicole and um you know emb and uh chris and like all these kinds of
00:24:28folks doing good work and specifically in the publishing space but i think you see you know kind
00:24:33of your analogs across many fields now right who have been able to to like who who are a step past like
00:24:43the sort of first generation of folks right you know so y'all aren't like miss morrison where it's
00:24:49like oh you're you're like the first black editor that we know of right or whatever like not being
00:24:57being able to be a little bit past that um and hold some institutional power and wield some institutional
00:25:03power has helped because um people are always going to consume black things but whether or not like
00:25:11the folks that are how can i say this whether or not those folks like move with integrity and also
00:25:19like have a have a like deep and loving and nuanced relationship with black culture is the is the
00:25:28question right and so that so like so you know so i think about the kind of cultural work that y'all do
00:25:34is really vital because because without that work the consumption happens the same but it happens in a
00:25:41really different way and that way much more you know that approaches the sort of american lineage of
00:25:48the minstrel show right you know um you know it's recreating those dynamics yep thank you for putting it so
00:25:58beautifully thank you um so okay on that on that lane the spaces that you're occupying um you know a lot
00:26:10of our spaces following the murder of george floyd following the murder of brianna taylor we started to
00:26:16see especially on um social media like black squares are popping up everywhere and every corporation
00:26:24is having and making a moment of solidarity with black lives matter with the black folks who are
00:26:32working with them the creatives they're supporting um how did you experience that how did you experience
00:26:40seeing them all pop up in spaces some seemingly unlikely
00:26:46yeah um how did i experience that that's that's a good one i mean i think some of it was like
00:26:55it was weird right because i because i was in i you know i spent most of the summer like out here in
00:27:01colorado which you know is is a lovely place in its way but it's a few things i mean one it's just
00:27:09like way less black than like where i'm from and so that that was like it was like weird to be like
00:27:16okay cool like i i do not there are not many black people like in the neighborhood where we live
00:27:23um because you know we sort of live close to like the downtown and the college or whatever
00:27:28but like there's now there's a lot of black lives matter signs
00:27:33that's that's cool i guess they're also still trump signs so that's weird but you know god bless i don't
00:27:42know um so i think you know that was just sort of a strange thing to like contend with to be like on
00:27:49my jog or like walking around and being like okay cool like i guess this house supports black lives
00:27:58maybe no one in the house but the house i guess the house itself the structure yeah made this political
00:28:04stand and then um so that was interesting and then i also think like part of it was
00:28:11i have publications that have like never ever hit me up who apparently know who i am so it's not just
00:28:18a matter of like you know oh ignorance or we weren't aware of this person's work or whatever being
00:28:25like do you want to write an essay about like you know like dispatch from where you know from
00:28:30niggerdom is the only thing i think i mean that's that's really where they want to dispatch from
00:28:35they don't really give a shit about like it being in colorado specifically there's like
00:28:40you know dispatch from blackness um and you know in a lot of those things i had to sort of be like
00:28:46yeah now i'm good not because i didn't you know like it's cool i'm like yeah i kind of want that
00:28:52look like that'd be interesting but i'm also like i'm i'm sleepy and i'm like a little traumatized
00:28:58and like i kind of just want to like take a nap and process that and not like um process that in
00:29:06some way that is like um consumable or like you know presumably a majority non uh like non-black
00:29:19audience and and because also i think part of the thing that trips people up about this kind of stuff
00:29:24is um and that that you know i find sometimes frustrating sometimes funny really a combination
00:29:32of both is is like y'all know i've been black this whole time and y'all know stuff like wild stuff
00:29:38happens constantly um and so the thing about the the like floyd piece or you know brianna taylor like
00:29:46all of these sort of tragedies is like is like i want to sort of tell the white folks in my life is
00:29:52like i'm constantly traumatized in this way it's just a matter it's just that it happened to rise
00:29:59to your attention but i'm like you know i mean like i'm from a city where the police department is
00:30:03notorious for murdering black people is notorious for like putting hands on folks right in ways that
00:30:09are inappropriate like they like they tortured people for decades like they had to they had to
00:30:16straight up pay reparations for torturing people and put and put in like the school curriculum and
00:30:23so like these things aren't like hypothetical questions for me they never really have been
00:30:28right they never have been like oh now more than ever in times like these etc etc i'm like it's always
00:30:34times like these for me so i don't know i'm just
00:30:37which which which doesn't like i don't mean to make light of it or or to sort of dismiss it then as
00:30:44like as a real thing that that people are feeling and that i'm feeling but it's just to say like
00:30:51yeah i don't know i don't know if like
00:30:55yeah if if people recognize the sort of the deep insult of thinking that things are out of
00:31:07particular kind of high point right now right um i don't know if they if they if they realize all of
00:31:14the the erasing that happens when when they when that is the frame right when that's the sort of
00:31:21framing oh erasure um it's such an it's such an intense subject and experience in this moment
00:31:36and even down to thinking about how you're like you know the house says black lives matter but i
00:31:43don't know about the occupants of that house and what a statement around oh we want to support you
00:31:50right now actually how that erases the experience or even the relationships that you would build up
00:31:57with these folks up until this point like hadn't you seen me in pain before you just wiped all of that
00:32:02out to address this new moment um which then because i'm talking to a poet and i have read
00:32:10your latest and love it you write poetry in erasure too yes yeah um and i'm curious about
00:32:22the process of doing that kind of poetry because the first time i saw it i'll be straight up i was like
00:32:29oh this is easy and i'm not a poet um i may have worked with my angela but i'm not a poet i did not
00:32:33edit her poetry um so i was like oh this is easy i can do this yo do you know how hard
00:32:39to pull this off like you're looking you're like i don't even know where to start so can you give us
00:32:47by way of starting with erasure but then taking it wherever you like but your process um how do you
00:32:54how do you sit down and do this thing how do you know when it's complete how do you know when it's
00:32:58ready to share yeah that's a good question i think
00:33:03i think a thing
00:33:07the thing that i'm always trying to like think about is what
00:33:12whatever like the set of rules or set of conventions are
00:33:16in the space that i'm working right and so that could be
00:33:20oh i'm trying to write a sonnet or or oh i'm trying to teach a college class or whatever right
00:33:26whatever the sort of conventions are of that space and then i'm trying to think about like
00:33:31what are the what are the kind of what's behind the form right so like behind just like this
00:33:39like their ideas embedded in the way that we approach certain things right so like for example
00:33:45in the sonnet if you think about it as a kind of structure right the sonnet is a little argument
00:33:51right that's that's i think literally kind of what the name comes from it's like little song little
00:33:56argument uh but like
00:33:58and that's why it has like the volta the point after which everything must change right it's why
00:34:06you have in in a shakespearean sonnet that's sort of um like epiphany that happens in the last
00:34:12couplet whatever and so um so yeah i don't know i guess when i think about erasure part of what i
00:34:22think about is like okay we're using this document or we're using this sort of source material
00:34:26um but how do we get to like what's actually really behind it right um like what like what what sort of
00:34:35lives in the in the like bones of it in the sort of skeleton of it um and how do we like bring that
00:34:43to the fore in a different kind of way um which in some ways for me is an interesting kind of
00:34:51proposition because i think that that is i tell my students all the time that like i think poetry
00:34:57maybe more than other kinds of writing is a discipline of noticing and so if we're in the noticing
00:35:03discipline like you know like part of the the job of someone who notices is to excavate is to like
00:35:09point out and so that's yeah i mean that's like ultimately like the work of the erasure
00:35:19okay um poetry is not the only kind of art you produce yeah um can you tell us a little bit about
00:35:29writing plays and what drove you to do that why poetry either wasn't enough or was more than enough
00:35:37to lead you into another discipline sure yeah i mean you know i had always been interested in
00:35:42playwriting and in writing writing for drama and i mean some of that might just be like that i i you know
00:35:51i started out as like a performance poet and as a rapper and so like what i mean to say when i say those
00:35:58things i started out as a performer right i started out like as um someone who thought of like
00:36:05the stage as the venue the sort of published publication venue of my work right more than
00:36:11a journal or the physical book or whatever um yeah and so yeah and so in some ways like theater was a
00:36:20kind of natural arc to that like i remember a homie of mine once telling me years ago like a sort of
00:36:26mentor figure being like look you can go around the country and like do you know poetry readings
00:36:33for like for nickels or whatever or you can write down all the the witty banter that you have in
00:36:40between your poems and make it a one person show and charge 10 times as much um which i always thought
00:36:47was funny and it's not it you know it wasn't just that simple for me like i never did the kind of one
00:36:52person show thing because i couldn't wrap my head around that form but um but yeah i don't know i
00:36:58just i i've always like loved the theater and when we got a chance to do the miss brooks play it was kind
00:37:03of cool because yeah because it was this marrying and because like the the people we worked with
00:37:08it was um they do this sort of like shadow puppetry theater and so it got to be this like really dynamic
00:37:16form where there was live music um that was like being built by jamila and um and ayana woods and
00:37:24then there was um yeah so there was like the live music dimension the puppetry that was really cool
00:37:30like what the the um actors could sort of do with all of those things um and what we could do right and
00:37:38because like the because of the sort of puppet nature of it we got to have a lot of input on on the
00:37:44sort of visual language of that that brooks play that was and that was really fun and so that was
00:37:51that kind of like got me into it and then i've been sort of lucky that i've been able to
00:37:57to have other sort of you know bites of the apple i like that your real venue for performance was the
00:38:06stage before it was a journal or a book so that makes me want to ask how did you know then that you
00:38:14were ready for a book like there are a lot of folks who you know okay i love to write and i'm
00:38:21going to write a book but don't really know why they want to do that except for oh that seems like
00:38:28a cool thing to do like i want to see my name in print on on a volume um but it's a little bit more than
00:38:35that i think or in my opinion it should be a little more than that a little more substantive um so can
00:38:42you tell us how you knew that okay a book is the next step for you yeah yeah you know i have a
00:38:52complicated relationship with books i think everyone does maybe but i think um so i my my senior year of
00:39:01college i remember having i did this um independent study with one of my professors right um and the
00:39:08the the sort of like theme of the independent study was like okay we're gonna talk about like hip-hop
00:39:12and poetry um it's like an old white professor knew nothing about rap music nothing about hip-hop culture
00:39:18uh but we just had a relationship and so he was like yeah i'll do this with you but um
00:39:23um but basically what it would be is like we would sort of argue or i'd have these kind of like
00:39:29one-sided diatribes or whatever and then he would just ask questions so he'd be like
00:39:35and i remember one time saying like yo look man black people have a complicated relationship with books
00:39:40like why would we trust books that doesn't make any sense and he was like huh what does that mean like
00:39:47say more like and so i wrote this essay then um thinking about it and like drawing i think what did
00:39:55i it was named after like that dead prez song they schools it's sort of about um the kind of racism
00:40:03that happens in in educational spaces um and i think of books as like key in that thing
00:40:09in that in that work i'm like yo like notes on the state of virginia was a book man so like
00:40:14like anyone that's like yeah this is like a complicated form for for like black folks in
00:40:22america like notes on the state of virginia was a book so like you gotta and it's never been out of
00:40:28print so so yeah so absolutely it's complicated but i think for me um the book was like it was kind
00:40:38of strategic in the sense that like one i think i had a story you know i had like particular art
00:40:44i wanted to sort of see completed and you know just as a matter of time like you're never going
00:40:52to get as much time on a stage as you do like in a book um yeah so like that so yeah so it was a space
00:41:01to like be able to explore in this broader way but even beyond that um
00:41:05um i think that you know books carry culture beyond the person who's carrying the culture
00:41:16and i i do see some value in that both like yeah because like my book will enter spaces that i can't
00:41:23or that i won't just you know such as the nature of a thing but also like my book presumably at least it
00:41:31has an opportunity to like outlive me right um or to outlive my ability or interest to like perform
00:41:36in that way right because let's say like i'm getting an accident tomorrow and i'm like you know
00:41:43you know i can no longer speak or i can't move in some of the ways that i move or whatever then maybe my
00:41:49kind of arc as a performer then is over right but not if not if there's a book right the book can still
00:41:57kind of perform in those ways how did you go about making it happen um how did you find your way into
00:42:05a book deal yeah um i mean i think sort of maybe i don't know stupidly but like
00:42:17in some ways i realized that back in the day like there was a lot of presumption
00:42:21in how i like moved um which i think was good i think i think it was helpful because like
00:42:26there were things i didn't know were like unreasonable to want and um so i was like yeah
00:42:33i have a book and then and i was like yeah i'll i applied to graduate school coming out of college
00:42:39largely because not because i just like wanted the time to be able to write that thing and focus on it
00:42:44and not have to like um yeah like have that be able to live as like one of my primary focuses
00:42:53professionally or whatever and so i did that and like i i got in it was it was so random i applied
00:42:59to two places and like was wait listed at both and then got into michigan um and so you know got to
00:43:05like step into that space um and yeah i think that there were things i just had learned
00:43:13and maybe this comes also from like coming out of the slam and coming out of a performance background
00:43:18is like and like i was used to failing i was used to like not getting things that i sort of wanted for
00:43:27and and i think it's because i had the particular i wasn't like one of the people who came into the
00:43:31slam it was immediately successful and wildly successful the whole time it was a real march
00:43:37up and so i was like well i guess i'll just start sending stuff to like journals and things because
00:43:42that seems to be what people around me are saying to do and then when i had enough poems i was like well
00:43:49i guess i'll put together this manuscript and send it around and i kind of like you know i think for a lot
00:43:56of my like colleagues you know who maybe had a came in with a little more with just a different
00:44:06position in the work or a different relationship to the work there was a lot more anxiety for the
00:44:11things but i just didn't know enough to like be to be that frightened or to be like worried that
00:44:17you know that it wouldn't be accepted or wouldn't be accepted by the right people i was just like
00:44:22sending stuff around and so like got the chapbook published um when i was still in grad school and
00:44:29then got like the that like book deal like it won a prize probably like and i must have been
00:44:38it was like right after school it was like it was it was almost immediate i was like one of the first
00:44:43people at the gate with with like a real heavy-duty publication and it was just because i didn't know
00:44:50enough to be frightened like maybe if i had been less like more smart i wouldn't have gotten as far
00:44:57no but there's also something you put yourself in communities where like and i think about that
00:45:02right you are michigan to get your mfa like you're in an area where in an arena where people are literary
00:45:09agents are coming to talk to you like you're you have an understanding of what it's going to take
00:45:14to enter this world you're not daunted by it because you're also experiencing success
00:45:20in those worlds there yeah i guess so yeah and i think i also it was also good because like i had
00:45:30there are some ways that like that kind of program i think can be challenging for folks
00:45:36right and can and can like really mess with folks confidence or whatever um and for me i was
00:45:44lucky in that i had a lot of literary community outside of that space and so that was that was
00:45:51always like really bolstering for me so like we started the dark noise collective my first semester
00:45:56at michigan right with like uh but you know i was only one who had even thought about doing an mfa at that
00:46:03point um and so it was really helpful to have you know folks like danae smith and aaron samuels and
00:46:10jamila woods and um you know fatima oscar franny choi like had to have folks like that and we're talking
00:46:18about how do we publish a book how do we go on a tour how do we do all these different things and nobody
00:46:23else is like in the kind of because like the thing about the mfa as a space is like it can it can become
00:46:31kind of small right um but i was never i was never that subject to that smallness because i just had a
00:46:37lot of outside relationships and that was that was really helpful because i yeah yeah
00:46:45yeah so like those two things being able to sit next to each other i got like the the um
00:46:55i got like the resources and and some of the knowledge of being in the mfa program and i didn't
00:47:00get the kind of psychosis of like oh if my workshop doesn't like this piece or if you know i don't get
00:47:07along with people in the right ways and i don't feel like i'm finding my um you know trusted readers
00:47:12that i'm somehow at a loss or i'm like behind i'm not like a right the right kind of writer
00:47:18which i think sometimes people can come out of those things feeling like it was i was like yeah
00:47:23like if if something misses for them that's good information to have but it's not necessarily
00:47:28determinative of like what i'm up to community is so important we were chatting with nick stone
00:47:36on friday afternoon um and she was saying the same thing that it's the community of writers that
00:47:42she has around her that energizes and infuses her work um gives her what she needs to keep going
00:47:49um to that one what kind of writing are you seeing too much of right now and wish we would just stop
00:47:59publishing oh that's interesting um
00:48:12i don't know i mean i think
00:48:17well one i guess like the sort of like
00:48:22american dirt type like let's
00:48:25so like i think that there are the there are these issues in our country
00:48:31um yeah i guess i'm thinking specifically about the u.s but this could actually this could could
00:48:36expand in some other ways and does um where like there are these points in our society where we have
00:48:43these issues that are racialized or in these ways and um there's an impulse to there's an impulse to
00:48:52humanize those situations which which i don't think is like a bad impulse but often when when
00:48:59we reach for that or when we see the the culture reach for that in terms of like cultural products
00:49:06so i.e books um tv shows these kinds of things um we're often reaching for like how do we humanize
00:49:14the people who are in some ways more likely to wield more power or to be sort of like
00:49:22a certain kind of bad actor so like you know like i think about a show like say the wire or something
00:49:29and i'm like i don't really know why i need to like get these get the sort of story of the police
00:49:37humanized in this way when like i don't know that just like isn't a thing that that feels to me like
00:49:46all that useful um so yeah i'm kind of good on those i'm good on like the you know the like memoir
00:49:53from the border crossing guard or like you know whatever right like the you know i was a
00:50:00you know police chief for 20 years or i was a prosecutor and now i'm going to like tell you
00:50:06how we can like re re-imagine criminal justice in the term i'm kind of like i'm like good i just feel
00:50:13like we have enough of that perspective i think we're like i think i'm awful me personally let me
00:50:17speak for myself i'm good and so then what would you like to take as place because those things
00:50:24definitely are out there um what what kind of writing are you not seeing and or are only seeing
00:50:31with tiny bits of and you're like no i i would love to see more of those yeah um that's a good question
00:50:44i mean this is just one thing i've been thinking about a lot is like um and maybe this comes out of
00:50:48like some of my recent readings so i'm thinking about like um the homie like khanif abduraki
00:50:53kibbs book on tribe um yeah i mean we were talking about decoded before we started um i kind of want
00:51:03to see more like good like like good work around hip-hop and specifically like memoir because i just think
00:51:16that there are a lot of really interesting stories to tell about that space i don't know if a lot of
00:51:21people have have done it right like i can think of a handful of books but like
00:51:28yeah like i don't know i kind of i want like the
00:51:34yeah i kind of yeah i want like a
00:51:39like someone needs to do the work that like alex haley was up to or something with like
00:51:43you know with some of these great mcs right um you know we got like the rock him book last year so
00:51:51that was cool the last year yeah um yeah and so that like that was cool but i i want like
00:52:02yeah i don't know i just i like want memoirs from like people in that in that space like i want like a
00:52:10good like tlc memoir or something i want like yeah yeah like yeah i want like
00:52:19you know one of the dudes from organized noise to like
00:52:22talk you know give us a book about like the origins of goody mob and outcasts like
00:52:30yeah like that that feels like though that would that would like make me excited
00:52:36i don't know if any rappers like trying out here trying to write memoirs and want a co-writer
00:52:39how like how about the boy like what's that got you okay i'm glad you said that we'll keep talking
00:52:45there are so many things i'm right i mean i'm right there with you it was like you were speaking
00:52:49from my soul these are the things not only did i write my own thesis about um but i was listening to
00:52:56or watching an engagement on twitter and someone was like um how come there aren't enough like
00:53:04well done research things that she was trying to write about i think it was outcast which makes
00:53:09it three for three i've done three of these nate and outcast has been a centerpiece in each one of
00:53:15these conversations um and she's like i'm trying to you know get the the theory behind all of this and
00:53:23all i can keep finding is source material and i just had to laugh because i was like well that's
00:53:30because that's all there is right now like we haven't had enough time like andre 3000 and big boy
00:53:35are still alive they're still making music like they're not very old right like right right like
00:53:41their kids are like maybe just right like but they're you know their kids are like still on their uh
00:53:48insurance so like exactly and so it's like how could you expect there to be anything else this
00:53:55is something that's people's lives like this is what we we were literally living but um it is
00:54:02refreshing to see that now we are in a moment where we can have the time the space the resources
00:54:09and the attention right to actually put some of these things together and begin to document and connect
00:54:16dots and um look at you know investigate the real meaning behind this incredible powerful art form
00:54:24that definitely changed i can't even say it changed my life it made my life possible i would literally not
00:54:31be where i am if it wasn't for hip-hop um literally paid for my education i'm sorry what was your thesis
00:54:40i'll give you a guess so um i wrote my thesis on midnight marauders it was called midnight marauders
00:54:47each chapter um was a song so it was an autobiographical essay collection um about the intersection of my
00:54:55coming of age with tribes coming of age with that album um which was my pov um it was released on my
00:55:0215th birthday and my mom was managing q-tip at the time um so that was that was my deal what yes
00:55:13damn you're like really from queens i love that yes i am i've ever heard like
00:55:20yes my my mother was the manager of one of yeah that's great gotta love it um yeah shout out to rush
00:55:33rest in peace chris lady um tough damn i mean yeah so literally hip-hop paid for my education right let
00:55:40alone gave me a certain confidence to occupy any of those spaces like i and so okay we
00:55:49have like technically five minutes left i do want to make sure if folks would like to ask a question
00:55:55of nate please please do um unmute yourselves i think our stage managers thank you all for your help
00:56:01um are facilitating that or you can drop it in the chat as we're going um something about hip-hop that
00:56:10i do think it's something i want as we do you know retrospectives and think about the theory of this
00:56:17thing i want to talk about misogyny right one of your poems is everything i've called women and i
00:56:25love this poem because it directly addresses this kind of tension right for those of us of a certain
00:56:32age who grew up in a culture where and especially in hip-hop misogyny is the name of the game right
00:56:40that's just what you can expect that's the way it is and you cannot ascribe to it you can wish it were
00:56:46different but that's what it is and you can laugh at it you can enjoy it you can whatever right but now
00:56:54this is absolutely uncalled for if slick wick if we're releasing um traitor like a prostitute now like
00:57:03come on like that's not acceptable right and so we know that but i still listen to the ruler is back
00:57:11right like i i don't promote that in my daily living but does that make me a hypocrite that i'm
00:57:19still gonna go and like my favorite jay-z record is who you with like that's just the way it is um
00:57:26how do you and so i would like to see art that actually grapples with this right where the generations
00:57:31have actually had to flex our values um and i'd like to see us talk through this how are you seeing
00:57:38this and and how are you actively negotiating this in your work yeah you know i write and think i try
00:57:46to i i think a lot about gender um and a lot about like this question of misogyny i mean one like i was
00:57:52the only growing up like i'm the only boy in my family um like i have three sisters i was raised by like
00:57:59my mom my grandma primarily and so like that's like a certain you know like that was sort of
00:58:07foundational for me um and it was really natural for me to think about a lot of the ways that
00:58:15i was sort of marked as different in my family as being a part of my gender right both good and bad
00:58:20and so that is a thing that comes up in the work but yeah i don't know as it relates to hip-hop i think
00:58:29one of the one of the issues that we always see with or that we see with misogyny in the
00:58:34music is like people will sort of grow and shift over time right so i think about like
00:58:41you know like too short right who is sort of famously smutty is like is like the dude that like
00:58:47you know freaky tales like all that he's like i'm i talk pimp shit like that's what i do
00:58:54like in the last few years there have been really interesting things of him like in uh interviews
00:58:59you can find stuff on like youtube where he's like where he's talking about like consent and having
00:59:05this really sort of nuanced relationship to these questions that you're like why would why is too short
00:59:11giving me like thoughtful elder statesman but it's like right because he's oh he's gonna go old
00:59:20for 35 years or whatever right and so that is gonna like change how you how how he approaches
00:59:27it right or how you might approach it how i might approach it but like you know the music is still
00:59:35it's youth music right so i my nephew stayed with us this summer
00:59:41you
00:59:46so
00:59:47you
00:59:48you
00:59:50you
00:59:50you
00:59:50you
00:59:50you
00:59:50.
01:00:20It can, for example, be much, be easy for them to make, like, a cruel joke about queerness
01:00:48in a way, and it's because, like, it's like, oh, right, but, like, you know, I remember,
01:00:53like, Matthew Shepard, and so, like, that has a whole different weight for me, right?
01:00:58Like, you don't have that knowledge, so, you know, why would, why would, how could I expect
01:01:04you to think about it this way, right?
01:01:07Because you also, like, don't remember a world where, like, gay people couldn't get married,
01:01:11right?
01:01:11Or, like, yeah, like, you don't, yeah, just, like, yeah, you, like, you don't remember
01:01:22a world where it would have been unthinkable for a woman to run for president, like, you
01:01:26don't, that doesn't, that doesn't occur to you that that is, like, a possibility, and
01:01:31so when you think about the relative power that men and women have, and what then is
01:01:36your responsibility as a young man, your answer will be understandably different, right?
01:01:44So I don't know, I guess, like, it's just interesting to me, it's, like, but I'm, and
01:01:50I'm always interested to see, like, the way that the next generation is, like, dealing
01:01:56with stuff, and the way that, like, people are learning and growing, hopefully over time,
01:02:00because sometimes I see a lot of these dudes, like, just double down on all the problematic
01:02:06shit they thought when they were 20.
01:02:07Yep.
01:02:08Wow.
01:02:09Which is just...
01:02:11I'm, I'm, I can't, I tried, but I literally can't resist the urge to be, like, well, yeah,
01:02:19also, though, you know, tribe, certainly, I think of that prodigy line, right, I'm only
01:02:2519, but my mind is older, like, they were also 19, now, granted, that did give them maybe
01:02:31some limits in their thinking, but they were, they were delivering crafts that had a certain
01:02:37sophistication that, again, would, would change music forever, so.
01:02:42And I think that there is, like, an impulse towards sophistication now, but I don't think
01:02:46that sophistication, for everyone, that's not necessarily at the level of the lyric.
01:02:51Like, it's, like, sonic, it's, you know, like, guys are thinking, I think in, like, folks
01:02:57are thinking in really complicated ways about, like, the sound, how they, how they approach
01:03:02from a sonic level, but they're not necessarily, in the same way, like, when I was young, and
01:03:08I was trying to write, like, I was obsessed with, like, how, yeah, like, how do I make these
01:03:13intelligent, complex rhymes, like, that, for me, is where the innovation was, and it might,
01:03:18and I think it sits somewhere a little different for a lot of young people now, and I think
01:03:23that's okay.
01:03:27Yeah, that was brilliant.
01:03:31We have had an hour, so thank you again.
01:03:35Are there any closing words you would like to leave with us?
01:03:41No, this was really fun.
01:03:43This is great.
01:03:43Um, I'm glad, I'm just glad I got to, like, have my, my, like, black thought.
01:03:51Me too.
01:03:52This is, yeah, this is, like, my, my, you know, my evangelical word, so I'm glad I got
01:03:59to share this sermon from the book of thought.
01:04:04Um, no, this has been, it's been a pleasure, Portia.
01:04:08Thank you so much.
01:04:09Thank you, Nate.
01:04:10Thank you again, Apropong.
01:04:12Thank you, Peggy from Random House.
01:04:14Um, I can't imagine where I would be without you.
01:04:16Um, and thank you all for being here and joining with us, um, this morning.
01:04:22We hope that you have a beautiful day and be safe and well out there.
01:04:26Bye, Nate.
01:04:26Bye.
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