- 2 days ago
Joan Smalls and Iman Panel Discussion at Essence Fashion House
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00I know that everybody's probably really excited just to hear the experiences that both of you have had.
00:07Aman, I want to start with you. You have been in this industry for years, trailblazing.
00:14Literally since 1975.
00:16Wow. Trailblazing in this industry and being a woman of color, being a black woman,
00:23what are some of the difficulties that you've had walking into a shoot or on a runway?
00:33Can you share that?
00:33Yeah. My first shoot in America, literally like the second day when I arrived, was for American Vogue.
00:42And when I got on the set, there was a Caucasian model and the makeup artist didn't have any makeup for me.
00:49And mind you, I was 19 years old. I came from Africa. I've never seen a fashion magazine in my life.
00:56I was majoring in political science. So it was, I had no idea what makeup was.
01:02So he said to me, did you bring your own foundation? And I had no idea what he was talking about.
01:07So I said no. And, but he, it wasn't lost on me that he didn't ask that to the Caucasian model.
01:14So I just paid attention and he did my makeup and I looked at the mirror and I looked literally gray.
01:23And so I knew from right then and there that I should take charge of my image.
01:31Because as a model, our images is our currency.
01:36If you don't look good in pictures, people don't say, oh, the makeup artist or the hairdresser or the photographer did a bad job.
01:43They'd say, she's not good.
01:45So I wanted to be ahead of that. So I started creating my own makeup.
01:51And those days was the days of Polaroids.
01:55So I would go and get some foundations and mix and match.
01:58And I really wanted to see not how they looked on me, but how do they look in pictures.
02:03So I'll take a Polaroid and I'll adjust accordingly.
02:06So I would always have my own foundation.
02:10And as I, you know, started climbing the ladder of success, a lot of the models of my time, they will always come to me on the, when we were doing fashion shows to borrow my foundation.
02:21So that's how Iman Cosmetics, actually the seed was planted in my head.
02:26That's amazing.
02:26Now, Joan, you have been in the industry now for 10 years and are of a newer generation of models with the advent of social media and where obviously your face is your currency.
02:40But the rate at which that, you know, comes into, you know, the ethos of the world happens much quicker.
02:48Can you tell us a little bit about how you started and how you, you know, where you're at now?
02:53Wow. Well, my career wasn't handed to me.
02:59It wasn't something that I was discovered in a mall, which a lot of times happened for models that are from a different complexion.
03:07It was something that I had to go on my own and search for.
03:11So that has always been my mentality in working where I know I have to work hard for it.
03:17And so I just built my career little by little by like believing in myself and surrounding myself with people who believed in me as well and my hard work and just build relationships.
03:30It obviously didn't come easy.
03:32And a lot of the times people don't see the struggle that happens behind closed doors because all they see is this image at the end of the day that is a beautiful picture.
03:41But they never see the tears, they never see the frustration, they never see, you know, how you constantly have to work twice as hard as your other counterpart just to be considered the same.
03:53Or when you walk into a room and you're the only person of your color.
03:58So it's like I'm not only there representing Joan or my family or my heritage, I'm representing a whole group of people behind me.
04:06So it's like you always feel that pressure when you walk into a room.
04:11So, yeah.
04:12I remember at the beginning of her career, she asked me, I was very honored, but she asked me to present an award to her.
04:20And I said that she is the new beauty, American beauty.
04:25It's not like she's a Puerto Rican or anything.
04:28It is the new American beauty.
04:31Joe.
04:31Yeah, I think what's really interesting about, you know, the different generations of fashion and, you know, where we're at in fashion now, where blackness is, we're seeing it more and more within advertising and even behind the camera.
04:46Amon, what was that experience like for you?
04:49There weren't a ton of black models when you started modeling.
04:53Yes.
04:53What was that experience like for you being, you know, the single person there?
04:57It's very disconcerting when they do that.
05:02And at times, they make it like there will be one black model at a time.
05:07So, like you have to dethrone somebody just to get in the door.
05:12I wasn't accepting of that because, first of all, having a mentality of coming from political science, it was not lost on me what the whole thing is.
05:22And the politics of the beauty that was behind it.
05:25For lack of better terms, if I could just put it in historical terms, is that how you separate, in slavery time, the house nigger from the field nigger.
05:37So, that's how they make us feel like we compete against each other.
05:42Right?
05:42So, divide and conquer.
05:44So, what's great about today is that the young, new generation understand the struggle and they now have ownership.
05:50So, that is the big deal now.
05:54Right?
05:55You know, it's like you don't want to be invited to the table.
05:57I'm fucking going to buy my table.
06:00Absolutely.
06:00Absolutely.
06:03Now, you know, being an agent myself, I see the homogeny in our industry.
06:10Oftentimes, just like you guys were saying, to be the only person in the room, it's like you get to be the exoticized beauty, the African beauty.
06:20Have you, have there been experiences where you've had to fight to get rates at the same rate as your white counterpart?
06:31Well, when I came to America, yes, there's definitely, there were two different rates.
06:35I sat it out because I also, coming from Africa, one of the main things that my mom taught me was to know my worth.
06:43And to you, how do you know and how you show people your worth by be able to walk away from things and say no.
06:50Right?
06:50So, I said no unless, because I said to the agency, I'm providing services.
06:56I don't care what color I am.
06:57So, she's providing the same service.
06:59So, I need to be paid the same way.
07:01Right?
07:02But how is it about now?
07:03Yeah.
07:04Things haven't changed.
07:05Yeah.
07:05A lot of the times, like, within different industry, may it be like the film industry or fashion industry, they talk about equality within, like, male, female.
07:19But then within the female, there is a subdivision when it comes to color.
07:24So, therefore, someone who isn't a minority gets paid more because they are valued as more, even though, like Iman said, we're providing the same service and then some.
07:35Because of social media, they use it as a media buy, a media ad, where it's included in the rate where before that wasn't part of the deal.
07:44It's like now you're part of a package and when you go to a job, your job isn't really done.
07:49So, two to four months from now, you still have to make a post, create a catchy caption, release it on a certain day, and that is added value to a company that is just seeing it as a whole.
08:03Absolutely.
08:03So, Joan, in terms of, you know, obviously being a black woman, you're from Puerto Rico, tell us about the experience of being an Afro-Latino woman in high fashion.
08:21Well, for me, that was a term that just, like, came about a couple years ago.
08:27Like, honestly, you know, I grew up in Puerto Rico in a household that's multicultural.
08:32I come from a black West Indian father and a Puerto Rican mother.
08:35So, like, being in an island where everyone is mixed and there's a different complexion, I didn't notice that.
08:43It's when you come to the United States that people want to put you in a box and define you so that they can make sense of who you are.
08:52And I don't think that that's good because it's very limiting.
08:55Because I never see myself as either or because I'm proud of who I am, all those little bits that encompass who I am.
09:04So, like, for me now, people are saying, you know, you're Afro-Latina.
09:07I'm like, okay, great.
09:09You know, like, I'm always going to be who I am because when I walk into a room, people just see a complexion.
09:16I came into an industry where they didn't see me as Latin.
09:19They saw me as what they saw me, so they categorized me as the light-skinned black girl.
09:24And like Iman was saying, there's just one position that has to be filled and you're the token.
09:30And then a lot of the times you don't see another girl in a room and it creates this divide that you were saying that it creates limitation as if there isn't room enough for everybody.
09:41So, in your own psyche, you feel like this is a very solitary job where I need to get it if not someone else is.
09:48And nobody else is thinking that way.
09:50You know, it's like they're brainwashing us to believe that that's the way and then there's not that much camaraderie sometimes.
09:57Like, I applaud Iman because, like, obviously she broke barriers for a girl like me years later, you know, putting her foot down and doing it with such grace and such confidence.
10:11I think it speaks volumes because she set the tone for the rest of us.
10:16And it's like we have to continue in that, in her legacy.
10:20And a lot of the time she was always so uplifting and so supportive and encouraging.
10:26It was like you felt her strength.
10:28And it's like the imagery that she pushed was that of someone who had this regal presence where you felt like, yes, I am a queen.
10:37Yes, I am, you know, like, this is, this is it.
10:42The living embodiment.
10:44I know.
10:46But, you know, the other thing is that it's quite important is that, as you were saying, that they boxed you, that they said they're Afro-Latina.
10:55When I came to the United States, it was very weird for me to hear be called the black model.
11:03And when I said that, a lot of African Americans were like, what do you mean?
11:07You are a black model.
11:09And I was, couldn't understand it because until I came to America, I was never called black.
11:14I come from a black country.
11:15Nobody says you are black.
11:17They're all black.
11:18Everybody's black.
11:19So, you know, to be boxed in that, it was kind of weird.
11:23But it's not, of course, lost on me.
11:27And then when they say, you know, that you are different, you are the one.
11:31You're like, you're better than the others.
11:33Yeah, well, they might think it that way, but try to get a taxi, you know.
11:37In New York City.
11:38In New York City.
11:39And you're black.
11:40They don't care if you're royalty or not.
11:42You're not going to get it.
11:44Do you know what I mean?
11:45Yeah, absolutely.
11:45I mean, so the idea that what they say and project sometimes comes from ignorance.
11:52Sometimes it comes from racism.
11:54But, you know, and they don't understand.
11:56And so for us, for what we see for the young generations is that we want to make sure that that doesn't happen.
12:02So now the young generation are having their ownership.
12:05They walk into the room confident.
12:08I'm not looking for a job, but I am here to make your job better.
12:13And to be seen as an identity, an individual, rather than just a thing that can be, like, replaced.
12:22Yeah, just touching on that idea of individualism and identity.
12:29Amon, I think anybody in this room has seen you walk down a runway.
12:36You have something that's very distinct about your presence.
12:39Joan touched on it.
12:40Your grace.
12:42You were modeling at a time when a designer wanted you to walk down a runway with that bit of pizzazz, a swing in your hip.
12:51Shade what your mama gave you.
12:53You know, emotion.
12:56And I just want you to touch a little bit on, like, what that individualism helped you create in your career further down the road.
13:05I actually was copying the generations that came before me.
13:09You know, the Pat Clevelands, Billy Blair, Alva Chin, Bethann Harrison, all those girls who went to Versailles and conquered Europe because of their swag, because of their culture, because of their blackness.
13:23Right?
13:23So that's what I was carrying through.
13:27And obviously, being just coming from Africa, and especially coming from Somalia, we are taught as young girls, heads up.
13:34Right?
13:35You're all queens.
13:37Heads up.
13:37You know?
13:37So that's what I come with it.
13:41It's my, where I come from.
13:44You know, that's always with me.
13:45You know, when I walk in the room, I never feel, especially, it was important for me, because I was also young, but it was important for me to make the whole white counterparts, models, designers, see that when I walk into the room, they all look.
14:02Absolutely.
14:02Because, yeah, yeah, so you're not there looking for a job or begging for something.
14:07No, I'm here.
14:08Yeah.
14:09Clearly.
14:12Joan, just to go back to that bit about being Afro-Latina, and you not necessarily being like, this is who I am.
14:21This is your identity.
14:23This is your culture.
14:24But now there is a whole new generation of young girls that you absolutely have been a trailblazer for.
14:33Women who are Afro-Latina, who are from the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Brazil, that is kind of a new trend, dare I say it, within fashion.
14:43What would you say to those young girls now who are coming up, who are walking their first or second season, about their Afro-Latina identity?
14:54Because you do have a very strong, you know, identity when it comes to who you are and where you've come from.
15:00I would say to obviously feel proud of who they are and never let the industry or someone try to water that down because it fits their image.
15:11Like, you know, a lot of the times we have to walk in rooms and kind of like be a chameleon just to get our foot in the door.
15:18And then once we're there, we can then show who we really are and who our presence is.
15:23How, like you were saying, even as simple as a walk, like when I started, you know, designers, casting directors, art directors, they would give you a talk before you hit the runway and say, no swinging hips, no swinging arms, just walk.
15:38And you would see all the same girls, like that boring, I don't want to be here, look, like, oh, God, because they said it would take away from the clothes.
15:47But it's like, obviously, they were being stripped of who they were.
15:52And it's like, you have to be aware of what's going on and understand that this is not just a pretty image.
16:01This is something that you are changing in the world and how society will see this visual.
16:07You know, like when I take an image, I take it in hopes that there's going to be someone around the world that sees it and can see themselves in me.
16:17Not because they speak Spanish or because they're black or whatever.
16:21It's just because there's that hope that anyone can make it if you truly have that determination and not let yourself be infiltrated by, you know, whatever it is that people want to pick apart from you.
16:35So I think just being prideful is what gets you through.
16:40We were discussing this backstage.
16:42I told her, I'm not going to tell you the designer's name, but there was a designer that I, after one show, I never worked with him again by choice because of, he'll say, yeah, I don't want you just like put your hands down.
16:55I don't want you smiling.
16:56I don't want your hips moving, this and that.
16:58You know, and I'm like, bye.
17:00You know, so yeah, the stripping of identity.
17:05And the same flip side of it is that when they say to black models, oh, yeah, go grab the party and, you know, be sassy.
17:13So it's the opposite of it.
17:15To be a caricature of yourself.
17:16To be a caricature.
17:17So we have to be mindful.
17:19It's a minefield walking into this arena, right?
17:24You want to educate people how they should be treating you and the generations that will come after you.
17:31But at the same time, as you said, it is like you have to, right, get into the door by really playing this.
17:40Maneuvering.
17:40Yeah, maneuvering and just making sure you're not stepping on a minefield till you get in.
17:44Till you get in and they can see Joan finally.
17:49There is a lot of the problems with fashion shows has been the casting agents.
17:55Designers have become to have lots of fashion shows.
17:58So they have started hiring casting agents.
18:01And the casting agent has become like the Wizard of Oz.
18:04You don't see the designer until he approves it, right?
18:07Or she approves it.
18:08So it came at one point that they didn't want to, they would say, oh, this season we're not seeing black models.
18:12Like as if you are a trend.
18:14Yep, exactly.
18:15Or that you would get an email, not me, but an agent, and they would say this is not the United Colors of Calvin Klein.
18:23Because United Colors of Benetton was always inclusive of every race.
18:28So it was like that was part of the discussion or the problem that people didn't see because at the beginning social media wasn't as popular.
18:36So all these discussions were being done behind closed doors.
18:40So it's like you feel that pressure and it's like you have to understand that this is not of your doing.
18:46This is because someone doesn't feel that you should be in that space.
18:52And a lot of the times I feel like that's the problem.
18:55When designers or fashion houses, you know, hide behind the false pretense of this is my aesthetic.
19:01I think that's the bull because aesthetic can be, yes, for one show, maybe you thought Eastern European was the look because you wanted a certain way.
19:11But when you continuously do that for three to five years, which within every year there is, what, four to five shows, and you see no diversity, that's a problem.
19:22That's an issue.
19:23It's an issue.
19:24So it's like those are the battles that you're fighting behind closed doors.
19:28And that was one of the reasons my close dearest friend, Bethann Hardison, when they called me, I haven't been to a fashion show since I retired in 1989 and I started my business.
19:39So I haven't been to a fashion show, but, you know, I follow a bit.
19:43But so she called me and she said, have you read the New York Times about, you know, about the fashion industry?
19:48And I said, no.
19:49So she said, go online and then call me.
19:51So I went online and it said, talking about Calvin Klein, it said, from Calvin Klein's show, the blonde leading the blonde.
20:00And the whole article was how for several years there was the absence of girls of color in the New York Times.
20:07So then Bethann said, we have to do something.
20:10And hence the balanced diversity that she and I and Naomi Campbell gathered together to put a highlight.
20:18We wrote to the CFDA, which is the Council of Fashion and Designers of America.
20:22And we talked in CNN, ABC, you know, BBC to put the highlight there.
20:29And then I was astounded to find out that Prada didn't use black girls for six years.
20:35Celine never did.
20:36You know, so that was.
20:38Yeah, so what I think is really interesting, and I'll shed a little bit of light on this from an agent's perspective,
20:44is that it's really crazy about fashion is that it's a very unregulated industry.
20:52It's one of the only industries that you can openly discriminate against somebody based off of their race.
20:58And just like you both were saying, you get a casting breakdown and, you know, put this type of girl in the package.
21:05We're only looking for Caucasian girls.
21:07We're only looking for X, Y, and Z.
21:09It's the only industry that you can be like, wait, hold on.
21:12That doesn't make sense.
21:13They're like, sorry, we're not using black girls this season.
21:18As if black women can't be aspirational.
21:22As if they wouldn't buy the clothing, and that's the reason that it doesn't fit into the aesthetic.
21:26So I think both of you probably experienced that, and just to, you know, piggyback on what you were saying.
21:32Yeah, but funny enough, I mean, it was more difficult at her era than it was at ours when it came to runway.
21:40But also my, when I started modeling, it really was from a financial standpoint of view,
21:47because I was a refugee, I had brothers and sisters that needed to go to school,
21:52I was the only source of income, so I was already thinking about it in terms of monitoring.
21:57So, you know, fashion shows were a great place where young models, black models, could be showcased, right?
22:03But I really wanted the spoils of war.
22:06I wanted the advertising.
22:08I wanted where the money is, you know?
22:10So that's where I really, truly, if truth be told, that's where I really made a difference for black models.
22:18Because I started really, started working in advertisements.
22:21I did a lot of ads.
22:23So, but fashion shows now is like a young girl who's not known.
22:28I mean, Leah, Leah, who was working for a while, and she became huge because Tom Ford used that in Gucci, right?
22:38So in that one instant, the editor saw this young girl in a different way, right?
22:45So that is, it is really a place that all models, especially black models, are showcased.
22:51So it's so important for that door not to be closed from that.
22:55Do you know what I mean?
22:56Yeah.
22:56And like a lot of the times, like to hit your point about like ad space, I feel like where it can be corrected is to hire a more diverse staff.
23:10So that in these rooms where these decisions are being made, it's when they say that they want to be more diverse,
23:17the conversation is coming from someone who is part of the culture and who understands the culture,
23:22rather than someone who thinks that they know or who has a preconceived notion of how diversity should look or be represented.
23:29And this is why a lot of the times you see brands have slip-ups because there's not someone in the room to be like,
23:34you know what, that looks kind of sketchy.
23:36You maybe should think that over.
23:38You should rethink this.
23:39You should, I don't know, you know, like that, just like, you know, common sense, you would think.
23:46But it's, it's, we're at the forefront, right, because we are the faces.
23:51But it's also to what's being done behind closed doors that we need people that represent us as well, you know,
23:59fighting our struggle and being part of that movement as well.
24:03Because at the end of the day, what we do, a lot of it is because of someone else's decision that they say,
24:09yes, we'll cast her.
24:10Yes, we'll book her.
24:11Yes, she's good for this.
24:12So there's only so much that we can do.
24:16And a lot of the times, even, I don't know if for you, but like when I would shoot ads and it was a huge major campaign,
24:23you know, a lot of girls that were not a minority, they would have a campaign just for themselves.
24:28And that was the only image you would see across the whole board in all demographics.
24:34You know, you would go to every single airport in different parts of the world, it was the same girl.
24:38But now they do groups, or they'll have, they'll shoot you alone with another girl that's your counterpart.
24:46But then they pick and choose where this image is going to be portrayed, because it suits a certain demographic.
24:52And then it also suits them to say, we are diverse.
24:56You know, we are part of the conversation.
24:58Checking multiple boxes.
24:59Checking multiple boxes, but at the same time, still keeping you closed in.
25:04You know, like a lot of the times, I would walk by an ad that I did, and I'm like, wait, I'm not even in there.
25:10And I shot the damn thing.
25:13And then you go to Puerto Rico, and there you are.
25:16I'm like, oh!
25:18It must have got lost in transit.
25:20Well, Joan, I think it's important to talk a little bit about, like, the tenure of your career, and the last 10 years that you've been modeling.
25:32Being the face of Chanel, a muse of Riccardo Ticci while at Givenchy.
25:36I think that was at a time where there was such a wave of that, like, white, eastern block-looking model, the pale English girl, the English rose.
25:50And then to be represented in such a way that it was high fashion at a major fashion house and embracing a bit of black identity.
26:02What was that experience like working with those major fashion brands from out of Paris?
26:09Well, I was grateful enough to, you know, be able to be put in front of people who were visionaries and who saw the world differently than what the rest of the world that was in, that was constantly turning me down, saw.
26:29They saw an opportunity, and they saw me for what I am.
26:34For, like, not the color of my skin, not where I was from.
26:37I suit the brand because this is who my girl is for this image.
26:42So I was completely, you know, grateful and honored to be just in this room and to have that opportunity and make the most out of it.
26:51You know, when that happened, I was hungry.
26:56Like, I come from Puerto Rico, like a small-town country girl.
27:00Like, people don't make it from where I come from.
27:02So there is this thing of, like, I have to prove it to myself that this can be done.
27:08Women before me have done it.
27:10Yeah, you're one shot.
27:11Uh-huh, you have that one shot, and you got to get it, and you got to go for it and just ride it.
27:16So, yeah, so I was just completely blessed to have major opportunities one after the other, and I think that's what gave me the longevity.
27:27And honestly, just being myself, a lot of the times being a model, like I say, they strip you of your identity, and they're, like, closed in, and they're not open.
27:37They don't talk.
27:38I'm the other way around.
27:40I have a personality.
27:41I'm loud.
27:41You'll see me when I walk in a room.
27:43You'll hear me.
27:44Like, I am there, you know?
27:46And sometimes it didn't work in my favor because a lot of the times people didn't want a woman in a room.
27:52They didn't want someone who knew their worth.
27:55They wanted someone that, because it's an ego-driven business, that they feel that they can, like...
28:01Or a hanger.
28:03Uh-huh, a hanger.
28:03Just do the job.
28:05Don't talk.
28:06Don't think.
28:06Just exist there.
28:08You're there to be looked at, not to be heard, you know?
28:11But you were right, but when you were mentioning about some visionaries, let's not forget, you know, not all the designers are like that.
28:21I mean, one of the people she's talking about is Ricardo Tisci, who's very, very...
28:25I mean, he's a visionary, truly a visionary.
28:27And so was Tom Ford.
28:29I mean, Tom Ford, as busy as he is, he's one of the only designers who doesn't do casting.
28:34I mean, Ricardo, he does his own casting.
28:36Ricardo's the same thing.
28:37He does his own casting.
28:38He wants to know who the person he's hiring.
28:41Talk to her, know her, you know?
28:43It's the ethos of their brand.
28:44Exactly, exactly.
28:45It's really 360 approach.
28:46Yeah, and I think those are the ones who will last longer, who people will be identified with, you know?
28:54And, you know, the funny thing is that about when she was talking about, you know, omitting, you know, a girl of color from an image,
29:02unless it's in the right demographic, I mean, who the hell buys luxury more than us?
29:08Exactly.
29:09Luxury brands, we probably are in business because of us.
29:13Absolutely.
29:13You know, if it was in the 60s, we'll say, fucking boycott them, you know?
29:17Yeah.
29:18You know, but, you know, at the end of the day, it is we need to have choices.
29:23People need to buy what they feel like buying.
29:25But at the same time, the identity of these business, big businesses need to change.
29:31And you are right is to have people in the room that can make those changes.
29:34And feel that they have a social responsibility to do what's right and be thoughtful.
29:40And I think, you know, consumers will be more open to support a brand when they can see themselves in these ads
29:47and that they're being represented throughout.
29:50And it's just, you know, equality.
29:52Like, equality should be equally everywhere.
29:55Not just pick and choose where it best suits you.
29:59Where it makes the most sense for them to benefit.
30:02So, last questions.
30:05Lowest moment in your career and highest moment in your career?
30:10Lowest was that at the height of my career, I had a car accident in New York in a taxi.
30:16And the New York taxi, there's a partition between the driver and the passenger.
30:20My face hit, my left side hit the partition.
30:24And I thought my career was over.
30:27But luckily enough, not my career wasn't over, but I was lucky that I wasn't paralyzed.
30:32Something major didn't happen to me.
30:33So, that was the lowest, but it also somehow was good because it just shook me and just showed me that result, a facade, it passes like that.
30:46Yeah.
30:47So, it's time to really go inwards, right?
30:50The highest point of my career was when Yves Saint Laurent decided that he would create a whole couture collection around me and called it the African Queen.
30:59Yeah, that's pretty major.
31:06Joan, lowest moment, highest moment of your career?
31:09Lowest moment in my career would be when I used to do a lot of catalog work.
31:15And, like, in the industry, they would call it Catalog Queen because she was just booking and booking and booking, which is fine.
31:21And, like, you become your agency's cash cow, basically.
31:24But then you feel very pigeonholed.
31:28And at that moment, I felt like I was in a dark place because I wanted more out of this opportunity.
31:36And I felt I wasn't reaching the people who I needed to.
31:40And the people who were surrounded by didn't believe in what I saw.
31:44So, I would, like, fly myself out to Paris, knock on doors, go to castings after castings, and remind you, it is not easy putting yourself out there 15 times in a row in a day and getting turned down.
32:01Or people, or you walking into a room, they take a glance at you, and they turn around, and they tell you to walk, and they're not even paying attention.
32:09And then you have to pick up your strength to go to another place and do the same thing over again.
32:15And I remember walking in Paris, and, like, there was, like, a park, and I called my dad, and I just break down crying.
32:21And I'm like, I don't know if I could do this anymore.
32:24Like, this is getting to me.
32:25And he's like, Joan, I raised you better than that.
32:29He's like, don't worry, somebody will say yes.
32:32And he's like, you show them the strength that I gave you, and you continue.
32:36And I'm like, you're just saying that because you're my dad.
32:38Stop.
32:40No, he wasn't.
32:41And he was right.
32:43Lo and behold, I was like, you know what?
32:45That's right.
32:46Let me suck this up.
32:47Like, this is nonsense.
32:48Like, I can't let people's opinions or negativity get to me.
32:52Like, I need to brush it off.
32:53And then I just remembered things that my mom would tell me.
32:56She's like, Joan, you know, just do what I say.
32:59You bathe yourself with butter because everything just goes off.
33:04Yes, mom.
33:05I like that.
33:06Okay.
33:07I like that.
33:07So that was like my lowest because it created self-doubt in me.
33:12And I let that infiltrate who I was and break me down to a point where I thought it wasn't possible.
33:20And then Ricardo Tisci, that was like my biggest breakthrough moment where he had me do couture, bleached my eyebrows, made me look more androgynous, sent me down the runway.
33:33And that opened up the doors to so many, to shooting with Stephen Meisel, to shooting with Vogue, to shooting, like every single magazine, signing with Estée Lauder, being the first Afro-Latina ever in a, like, a huge company.
33:49So that was like my biggest break because he was able to showcase me to the world in a different light.
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