00:00At what point is there a tipping point? 17 days.
00:05After the shooting death of Renee Good, masked Immigrations and Customs Enforcement agents in Minneapolis.
00:10Again shooting dead a U.S. citizen, this time 37-year-old Alex Preti.
00:15Again, there's video evidence to contradict official narratives that the victims were...
00:20Acting as domestic terrorists. There's the race to gather evidence before...
00:25...for it can be tainted or destroyed, media echo chambers, and a U.S. president who...
00:30...watches from on high. Why these shows of force? Will they discourage dissents?
00:35Or trigger a backlash? Do these hurriedly recruited federal agents...
00:40...armed with military-grade weapons answer to courts and lawmakers? Or solely to...
00:45...the U.S. president. And while passions reach boiling point in specific opposition...
00:50...will the rest of the United States continue to go about its business?
00:55At what point is the rest of the population affected by this breaking of norms and pushing...
01:00...of boundaries? More broadly, has the veneer come off a superpower that claimed a certain...
01:05...exceptionalism in its values. Values on which it arguably won the Cold War. What's...
01:10...changed? And is that change for good? Today in the France 24 debate, we're asking if I...
01:15...cases above the law. With us from Minneapolis, criminal defense attorney...
01:20...James Cook, thank you so much for being with us.
01:22James Cook, thank you so much for being with us.
01:23James Cook, thank you. Thank you for having me.
01:25From New York, Bernard Harcourt, professor of law and political theory at Columbia...
01:30...university. Good to see you. Good to see you. Thanks for having me.
01:35We co-published a video op-ed, We Study Fascism and We're Leaving the U.S. Last...
01:40...March. Marci Shore, chair in European Intellectual History at the University of Toronto's...
01:44...Monks...
01:45...School of Global Affairs and Public Policy. Welcome.
01:50Thank you. And welcome to Malcolm Biga, U.S. Politics Center at French New...
01:55...News Magazine, Le Nouvel Economiste. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being with us. On the go, by the way...
02:00...you can listen to the show wherever podcasts are streamed. Yeah, the...
02:05...Anger palpable. And while the U.S. President announced he was dispatching his...
02:10...bordered Tsar. A judge was considering a request to temporarily stop the Trump...
02:15...administration's immigration crackdown in Minnesota. We've seen...
02:20...people once again this Monday flocking to a makeshift...
02:25...a memorial for that second victim of ICE agents in less...
02:30...than three weeks. Charlotte Hughes has more.
02:35A vigil at the site where protester Alex Pretti was shot dead by a federal immigration agent...
02:40...on Saturday. Among those present at the site were members of the Minnesota Bureau of...
02:45...criminal apprehension. The Bureau said on Saturday that federal agents had blocked its...
02:50...attempts to begin an investigation. There is a legal fight now and away over control of...
02:55...that. With Immigration and Customs Enforcement ICE agents still in place, Minnesota Governor...
03:00...Tim Walls addressed his words to the U.S. President. So my question is what's the plan...
03:05...of Donald Trump? What is the plan? What do we need to do...
03:10...to get these federal agents out of our state? You thought fear, violence and chaos is what you want...
03:15...from us, and you clearly underestimated the people of this state and nation.
03:20In a post on social media, Donald Trump blamed what he called democratic...
03:25...chaos for the incident. Pretti's family say they want the truth. This is an...
03:30...analysis of videos of the killing of the 37-year-old intensive care nurse contradicts statements...
03:35...from the Trump administration that it was carried out defensively.
03:39Former U.S. President...
03:40...Barrack Obama on X said...
03:42The killing of Alex Pretti is a heartbreaking tragedy...
03:45...it should also be a wake-up call to every American, regardless of party.
03:50...that many of our core values as a nation are increasingly under assault.
03:55Similarly, Bill Clinton has urged Americans to stand up and speak out.
04:00...the U.S. Senator in Louisiana for the Republicans, Bill Cassidy says the credibility of ICE and the...
04:05Department of Homeland Security are at stake, and calls for a joint federal and state...
04:10...of investigation.
04:11...Border Patrol Commander Gregory Bovino says he will be...
04:15...awaiting the results of the investigation.
04:17...to uncover all those facts...
04:19I wasn't there...
04:20...wrestling that assaultive subject that was assaulting Border Patrol agents.
04:24I was...
04:25...wasn't there...
04:26...wrestling him myself...
04:27...so...
04:28...I'm not going to speculate...
04:29...I'm going to wait for that investigation to come...
04:30...until...
04:31...until...
04:32...I'm going to wait until that investigation comes out...
04:33...until...
04:34...I make a...
04:35...
04:35...my decision there.
04:36Democrats in Congress, meanwhile, are saying they will hold up Homeland Security...
04:40...of security funding.
04:41This amid a death that has provoked outrage.
04:45...
04:52...
04:56...
04:57...
05:00...
05:04...
05:06...
05:12...
05:14arguments that he should be detained further
05:16the judge didn't buy it
05:17so ultimately
05:19he was released that afternoon
05:20went home
05:22things are kind of normal
05:24wake up the next morning at about 6am
05:26and ICE is attempting to raid
05:29his house
05:29and this is after he was released
05:31by a federal judge
05:32so
05:34went to his
05:35went to the location where he was staying
05:37uh
05:39saw the aftermath of their attempts to
05:41execute the warrant
05:42they actually
05:42executed the
05:43warrant
05:44on this on the wrong house
05:45they they they entered a neighbor's house
05:48who has a
05:49as a pacemaker
05:49they startled him
05:50uh
05:52and then
05:52so you know
05:53I kind of
05:54dealt with that
05:54and then
05:56approximately about an hour and a half later
05:57they shot
05:59they shot Mr. Freddy
05:59and then
06:01you saw what happened
06:02I mean
06:02you've covered extensively
06:04uh
06:04the public reaction to that
06:06and
06:07and
06:07this Monday
06:08uh
06:09we saw people
06:10early come to this sort of makeshift
06:12uh
06:13memorial
06:14uh
06:14Minneapolis
06:15uh
06:16has been all
06:17through a lot
06:18since
06:19the start of 2026
06:20what's the mood today
06:21you
06:24yeah
06:25I
06:25I
06:25think
06:25it's
06:25it's
06:26the same thing
06:27it's
06:27exactly
06:28what
06:28Obama
06:28said
06:29C'est une tragédie, et c'est n'y a pas à happen.
06:33Et nous avons brisé.
06:34Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
06:39...
06:40...
06:41...
06:43...
06:44et sort of
06:47escalated every single situation
06:49and that's why people are dying
06:51and that's kind of the mood
06:53while it's
06:54over and they're trying to
06:56memorialize Mr. Prince's life
06:58but at the same time
06:59we're going to embrace it for more
07:01we're showing live images there
07:04or there was a while you're
07:06while you're speaking
07:07we know that the board
07:09the border patrols are expected
07:12that's the attorney general of Minnesota
07:14who we just saw a moment ago
07:16before we talk about the
07:19and again the legal aspect of it
07:22Marcy Shore
07:24how do you make sense of this
07:26in light of what you just heard there
07:28from James
07:29you know
07:31these federal agents
07:33in his
07:34in a personal instance
07:35going to the wrong house
07:36or issuing
07:39in warrants
07:40despite what the courts had said
07:44well first I want to thank James Cook
07:46for being here
07:47and for being in Minneapolis
07:49I've been watching Minneapolis
07:51the streaming all weekend
07:53with kind of
07:54awe and admiration
07:55for so many of my fellow Americans
07:57who are actually there
07:58on the front line
07:59you know
08:00and with a lot of guilt
08:01for not being there
08:02myself
08:04we're we're well
08:05I'm not a lawyer
08:06you know
08:07I'm an intellectual historian
08:08I teach Kant
08:09I deal a lot with the realm
08:11of the metaphysical
08:12but this is not subtle
08:14we are way outside the realm
08:16of the rule of law
08:17we have been way outside
08:19we have been way outside
08:19the rule of the realm
08:20of the rule of law
08:21for a long time
08:22we all watched
08:24we all watched
08:25a point-blank range
08:27like that
08:28those ice
08:29agents
08:30murder Renee Goode
08:31and then murder
08:32Alex Pretti
08:33and there was
08:34excellent video analysis
08:35done by NPR
08:36done by the New York Times
08:37done by Steve
08:39on CNN
08:40it was not ambiguous
08:41what happened
08:42we watched people
08:43five
08:44fire bullets
08:45with no legitimate provocation
08:47you know
08:48into the bodies of
08:49innocent Americans
08:50you know
08:51we should care about everybody
08:52and I'm also calling
08:54on people who specifically
08:55care about Americans
08:56to care about Americans
08:57we've all watched that happen
08:58and
08:59and then we've watched
09:00the government
09:01brazenly
09:02and shamelessly
09:03like
09:04and we're going to
09:05try to
09:06cry about it
09:07and so
09:08Marci were lawyered
09:09up on this
09:10panel
09:09Parce qu'il y a Bernard Harcourt, il y a Malcolm Bigot qui a fait légal studies.
09:14Bernard, let me ask you, because Alex Prady had a licence to carry a handgun.
09:19As Minnesota allows, you just heard Marcy describe the...
09:24Video evidence, it shows that this nurse was shot by...
09:29...the two agents while trying to intercede on behalf of a protester who had been pepper sprayed by the agents.
09:34But is that video evidence enough?
09:39Well, look, the video evidence is what we have right now...
09:44The video evidence is the basis on which law enforcement, prosecutors...
09:49...attorney generals, et cetera, will decide whether or not to pursue...
09:54...an investigation, which of course they must, given the evidence.
09:58You said he had a...
09:59...a licence to carry.
10:01Now, the initial...
10:04...evidence from those videos is that the weapon that he was...
10:09...carrying lawfully had been removed from him and taken out of the...
10:14...melee, before the officer and then the second officer...
10:19...begin shooting 10 shots at him and killing him.
10:23So...
10:24...so...
10:25...from the evidence we have so far, it's pretty clear that they're...
10:29...
10:29...didn't seem to be any risk to the officers or to bystanders.
10:34...and therefore, you know, it looks like a pretty simple...
10:39...clay case of, you know, unreasonable use of law enforcement.
10:44...lethal force.
10:45So...
10:46...that's...
10:47...that's the question, of course.
10:49...
10:49...there's no immunity.
10:50J.D. Vance had spoken about absolute immunity.
10:54...he's fortunately retracted anything about that since...
10:57...there is no such thing.
10:59...but there isn't immunity for a law enforcement officer.
11:03...the...
11:04...only question is whether it's a reasonable use of lethal force.
11:09...and that comes up all the time in police shootings.
11:14...the law enforcement use of lethal force.
11:16...it's nothing new in any way.
11:18...
11:19...
11:19...the only thing that is new is that...
11:21...the federal government has been trying to effectively...
11:24...shield the incident from any kind of investigation.
11:28...and in that...
11:29...sense it's a real departure from...
11:31...what we call the rule of law.
11:33...
11:34...from ordinary practice.
11:35...that's...
11:36...not...
11:37...done.
11:38So in the last minute...
11:39...
11:39...it's Bernard, the White House spokesperson...
11:42...saying that both...
11:43...
11:44...
11:44...the FBI and Homeland Security...
11:47...have opened...
11:48...invest...
11:49...investigations into this latest shooting...
11:52...based on how it's gone in the nearly...
11:54...three weeks since Rene Good was killed.
11:56...what would you say on that score?
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