- 6 weeks ago
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00:00If you have a one to two day trade horizon, then investing in crypto
00:05is a challenging thing to do, a lot of the speculative money in the last
00:10month or so has been going into gold, you see silver trading as a
00:15meme coin, literally trading as a meme coin that you haven't seen in almost
00:20a generation.
00:21So a lot of the speculative money that you would typically see go to crypto, you're
00:25seeing go to commodities.
00:26I think I would tell investors to take a longer term view.
00:35Hey everyone, you're watching Markets Outlook on CoinDesk.
00:40I'm Jen Sinassi and I'm joined today by Sharplink CEO and former head of digital
00:44assets.
00:45Strategy at BlackRock, Joseph Shalom, as we take a look at the markets this morning
00:49and what to watch this week.
00:50Hey, Joseph.
00:51Good morning, Jen from Frigid, New York.
00:54Yes.
00:55.
00:55It is frigid.
00:56It looks like you're staying warm, as am I, but I haven't been outdoors.
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01:08Joseph, let's talk.
01:09Let's talk about what we're seeing in the markets this morning.
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01:29that you've seen around industry tailwinds for the Ethereum.
01:34And frankly, for crypto in general, tokenization, stable.
01:39Cablecoins, more DeFi activity.
01:42I think we need to explain why we're not.
01:44Again, we're in some ways, some of the best news we've seen.
01:49In years, and I think the way to explain it is we are in a period of.
01:54Of both geopolitical and macro uncertainty, the macro.
01:59Setup is actually stealing wind from the sales, from all this great news.
02:04That we would expect to be reflected in Bitcoin and Ether's price.
02:09And I think what you're starting to see, especially in Bitcoin, is it's always been the leader.
02:14But if you look closely, we've been seeing some of the OGs sell.
02:19And sometimes sell in very large blocks, partially because of concern.
02:24around quantum proof.
02:26And you haven't seen the movement you would expect.
02:29In Bitcoin and ETH, given both the market uncertainty and some old.
02:34Holders selling, which we hadn't seen in quite a while.
02:37Let's talk a little bit about that.
02:38Let's talk a little bit about that.
02:39We have retail investors watching on the sidelines.
02:41We're seeing big whales sell.
02:43I think we.
02:44We saw just this morning that there is a whale that's moved $145 million worth of ETH.
02:49to a centralized exchange.
02:51We're seeing gold hit new highs.
02:53For.
02:54For that retail investor that's watching this.
02:56And they're thinking, should I follow these whale wallets?
02:59Should I be selling?
03:00Should I be worried about quantum?
03:02Should I rather be looking at gold as a.
03:04safe haven asset?
03:05What would you tell them?
03:06I would tell them if you have a one to two day trade horizon.
03:09Then.
03:10Investing in crypto is a challenging thing to do.
03:14A lot of the speculative money in the last month or so has been going into.
03:19gold.
03:20You see silver trading as a meme coin.
03:23Literally trade.
03:24trading as a meme coin that you haven't seen.
03:26In almost a generation.
03:27So a lot of the speculative.
03:29The money that you would typically see go to crypto.
03:32You're seeing go to commodities.
03:33I think I would.
03:34Don't tell investors to take a longer term view.
03:37Actually people in crypto have done better.
03:39By buying and holding when you have a thesis.
03:42Then in day trading.
03:43And.
03:44I think the news that I would ask them to focus on is.
03:48You're starting to.
03:49You're starting to see the largest financial institutions in the world.
03:52Who own trillions and trillions.
03:54Of dollars.
03:55Of assets.
03:56Not just hint.
03:57Not just give breadcrumb.
03:58They are.
03:59They're announcing at the top of.
04:01Their lungs.
04:02That all assets are going to be token.
04:04announced.
04:05And it's going to happen on digital rails.
04:07And if you've seen the announcements from the.
04:09The likes of BlackRock.
04:10And Bank of New York.
04:11And Goldman Sachs.
04:12And others.
04:13It's happening.
04:14Being on Ethereum.
04:15So the tailwinds.
04:16For the Ethereum ecosystem.
04:18Have frankly.
04:19ever been stronger.
04:20Davos last week.
04:21You can argue.
04:22Was dominated by.
04:23Two.
04:24Topics.
04:25Greenland.
04:26And crypto.
04:27But on the crypto front.
04:28You heard Larry.
04:29I think in BlackRock.
04:30Essentially say.
04:31All assets.
04:32Will be tokenized.
04:33And they have.
04:34had a beautiful slide.
04:35That essentially.
04:36Posited.
04:37With a very strong conviction.
04:39That Ethereum.
04:40Will be that toll road.
04:41For tokenization.
04:42So I would say.
04:43To your investors.
04:44Don't focus on the daily.
04:45Don't focus on the daily.
04:46Actually invest.
04:47Where the puck is going.
04:49And the macro.
04:50Is telling you.
04:51To invest.
04:52In tokenization.
04:53Stablecoins.
04:54And you can get.
04:54That exposure.
04:55From Ethereum.
04:56I want to talk about that.
04:57A little more.
04:58In a second.
04:59But I want.
04:59To touch on the comment.
05:00You just made.
05:01About silver trading.
05:02Like a meme coin.
05:03What do you mean by that?
05:04I think.
05:05In.
05:06Long term.
05:07Trends.
05:08When you have.
05:09Geopolitical.
05:09Risk.
05:10When there's.
05:11Worried.
05:12Worries about.
05:13War.
05:14Breakdown.
05:15Of.
05:14Norms.
05:15And you're.
05:16Starting to see.
05:17Potentially.
05:18Breakdown.
05:19Of norms.
05:20With real.
05:21Politic.
05:19Gold.
05:20Has been.
05:21Always.
05:22The first.
05:23Price.
05:24Mover.
05:25And you've.
05:26Seen gold.
05:24Almost double.
05:25In the last.
05:26Year and a half.
05:27But very quickly.
05:28When speculative.
05:29Money comes in.
05:30It's often.
05:31Silver.
05:32That attracts.
05:33The faster money.
05:34And has a faster.
05:35Price movement.
05:36And you're.
05:37Seeing that.
05:38You're seeing.
05:39I would say.
05:39Lesser quality.
05:40Commodity.
05:41Trade up.
05:42Because that's.
05:43Where the speculation.
05:44Is going.
05:45Let's come back.
05:46To the.
05:47Ethereum.
05:48Ecosystem.
05:49My question.
05:50For you.
05:49Has to do.
05:50With the.
05:51Ethereum.
05:52Versus.
05:53Solana.
05:54Narrative.
05:55We've heard.
05:56A lot.
05:57Of folks.
05:58Come.
05:54Come out.
05:55And say.
05:56Solana.
05:57Is the chain.
05:58For Wall Street.
05:59I know.
06:00That from.
06:01Your writing.
06:02And here.
06:03You.
06:04You.
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07:00You.
07:01You.
07:02You.
07:02are happening there. 10x what you see on Solana. I do think there's a role.
07:07For cheap, fast, less secure chains. And I think Solana will win.
07:12In the meme coin, maybe the gaming space, where actually security matters a lot less.
07:17And speed matters more. So it's not my perspective. It's what you're seeing in the industry.
07:22Ethereum leads in high-quality assets in DeFi tokenization.
07:27Stablecoins by a factor of 10 to 1 over Solana.
07:32The gap is only getting larger. It's not my perspective. People are voting with their feet.
07:37Coming back to what we were speaking about earlier, when do you think the...
07:42price of ETH starts to catch up with the action we're seeing on the Ethereum.
07:47Chain and the total value locked.
07:48I think the TVL in action is there.
07:51And I think we're at the early stages. We started in tokenization by...
07:56individual funds. When I was at BlackRock, we tokenized the largest fund in the world called Biddle.
08:01I think you're going to stop seeing individual funds and stocks being tokenized.
08:06You're going to see fund complexes, platforms be tokenized.
08:10You know, and that is what's...
08:11really exciting because you're going to take things that have taken years to grow to $30 billion.
08:16tokenized RWA potentially go to trillions in the next year because of that.
08:21I think we need to get through this macro uncertainty in...
08:26the markets. Some of it is the geopolitical risk. Some of it has been a rotation.
08:31a speculation on AI. I think we're going to see that happen in the next month.
08:36or two. Typically, when you've seen drawdowns, it takes three or four months.
08:41to get leverage out of the system.
08:43That started on October 10th with the consolidation...
08:46day. We're about three months past that. And in historical cycles...
08:51you start seeing the uptrend after that's been worked through.
08:54And I think the macro...
08:56tailwinds, the stories, the adoption is there. We just need to get...
09:01through some of this geopolitical risk and general markets uncertainty.
09:06Something else everyone is talking about, of course, is market structure legislation in the United States, which is...
09:11kind of stalled right now. How are you looking at market structure?
09:16What if it doesn't pass before midterms? Is that going to have a dynamic effect?
09:21Do you think on Bitcoin and Ethereum? Or do you think it's going to be business as usual?
09:25The build...
09:26The builders will continue building. Value will continue accruing on both chains.
09:30I think you have...
09:31a lot of clarity already, even though the Clarity Act hasn't passed. You have favorable...
09:36government actions. We've seen enforcement actions go down. There's a very clear...
09:41path. I think the market's already building in the fact that it's going to pass.
09:46whether it happens in February or it happens in July, I think fundamentally it's the...
09:51something built into the system. Builders are there. The VCs are back.
09:56But I don't think that... I think it's going to have a more of an impact on the winners...
10:01and losers within the ecosystem. Which are the going to be the intermediaries who benefit...
10:06more than others. But I think overall, the path and the tailwind on...
10:11regulatory clarity is already here. And you're seeing that. Like, you're seeing that because...
10:16the largest institutions in the world who control $700 trillion...
10:21of assets are already starting to build into this ecosystem and they're making...
10:26long-term bets because they know it's going to pass. It's less of an issue if it passes this...
10:31quarter or next.
10:32You mentioned quantum a few minutes ago and I want to unpack that a little bit...
10:36with you. Quantum and AI are being seen as threats to...
10:41crypto ecosystems for similar reasons. Let's start with Quantum.
10:46How is Ethereum preparing, I guess, for the threat...
10:51that posed by quantum computing?
10:54Sure. Look, I think...
10:56if you looked back two years ago, people thought that quantum would really...
11:01come in 2035. And I think there's a reality that...
11:05with recent advances...
11:06with AI, the quantum generation is going to happen much quicker.
11:11on Friday, the Ethereum Foundation did something amazing. They clarified...
11:16their action plan on quantum resistance. They are in the pole position to be the first...
11:21and maybe the only decentralized quantum resistant infrastructure.
11:26you would have seen Justin Drake announced they have a new post-quantum team.
11:31that's meeting on a periodic basis. They formalized publicly their plans and...
11:36more than any other blockchain or network...
11:41Ethereum has a track record for over 10 years of delivering...
11:46multiple major releases. And we have a lot of confidence that that will happen.
11:51much more than what you're seeing in Bitcoin and Solana.
11:54With respect to AI...
11:56I actually don't see it as a threat. I actually see it as a macro...
12:01tailwind. And what do I mean by that? If you take a step back...
12:04AI has...
12:06AI has been something that has been introduced in 2025...
12:10into just general...
12:11ultra- cosmopolitanized enterprise software. I think what you're going to start seeing this year is...
12:16task-specific agents not only operate in the crypto ecosystem, but...
12:21operate in conjunction with one another. And I think what you're going to potentially...
12:26see is because everyone will have a digital twin of their wallet...
12:31you're going to see three or four phenomenon that we've never seen before in finance.
12:36Can we share what those are with these Agenda capabilities being coordinated on your behalf?
12:41You're going to start seeing yourself as almost having an asset manager in your wallet.
12:46The idea that you can give these agentic agents constraints like...
12:51yield and risk and tolerance and they can rebalance portfolios.
12:56You're going to start seeing automated market making happening from wallet.
13:01In a way that humans have to do themselves. And I think what's most interesting...
13:06is this agentic capability, what we call an agentic Ethereum economy...
13:11is going to start allowing people to participate in DeFi in ways that they've never done.
13:16before, having your wallet or your app essentially rebalance your...
13:21re-staking, look for yield, re-stake, and essentially operate a...
13:26a little bit more autonomously. It's how people in traditional finance will see...
13:31cheap returns and you're going to start seeing in crypto.
13:34What's really positive about this is your...
13:36you're going to start seeing transaction volumes go up massively and more and more...
13:41of the activity from DeFi happen on networks like Ethereum. And that's very...
13:46positive both for TVL and transaction counts that you're going to see on Ethereum.
13:51So rather than a threat, I see agentic as one of the tailwinds and you'll see if you want to...
13:56geek out. Read ERC 8004. It is a trustless...
14:01agentic protocol on Ethereum that I think is going to build a new type of machine...
14:06economy on Ethereum that we've never seen before. So I think we're at the early stages.
14:11of the transformation of finance and this idea that agentic agents can help individuals...
14:16individual investors do their investing better for them than they've ever done before.
14:20I've heard...
14:21a lot of people say that in a way maybe crypto wasn't developed for humans. Maybe...
14:26it was developed for AI and that's what's going to...
14:29that's what's going to bring us this billion users...
14:31that everyone has been talking about for the last five or so years. Do you agree?
14:36I do. And I think we're underestimating it. You know, we've been talking about AI and crypto...
14:41for a very long time, but there's a great quote from Bill Gates that we...
14:46we often overestimate what's going to happen with teams or technology in a year, but we...
14:51fundamentally underestimate the impact of these technological changes over a decade.
14:56we've been building this and I think we've been overestimating it in the short run. Now is the...
15:01the time we're going to start seeing massive adoption of decentralized rails.
15:06and I think you're going to end up seeing both traditional institutions and individual users...
15:11rely on these decentralized rails and agenda capabilities.
15:16in ways that they had never anticipated. It might start in their consumer life, but it's...
15:21certainly coming very quickly in their financial lives. And I think it's going to be...
15:26a step-function advance in how money is moved and how people interact with their money.
15:31over what we've seen, which was really stagnant change over a couple of generations.
15:36I'm bullish and I think we're underestimating the impact and it's going to bring a lot of prosperity.
15:41when I mentioned AI as a threat, some folks have told me that AI...
15:46allows folks who previously weren't able to act as developers do that.
15:51giving them the tools to potentially break smart contracts or break different crypto ecosystems.
15:56it sounds like maybe that's something that is not going to...
16:01effect ethereum or how are you... do you think about that?
16:04we do. I think quantum in the long...
16:06run is the bigger threat and we're quite relieved and excited that ethereum and the ethereum foundation...
16:11is going to take the leading role.
16:13I think what's interesting is you can make an argument...
16:16that AI can potentially beat mechanisms as you said...
16:20but AI can...
16:21do things that we've never done before which is monitor smart contracts in real...
16:26time for flaws to actually play a defensive role as well.
16:30so I...
16:31I think it's going to bring good and bad.
16:33I think the ecosystem will stay ahead of it.
16:36but I think it's more likely that you're protected in a decentralized trust...
16:41ecosystem like ethereum...
16:43than you are in traditional rails where you rely on...
16:46humans and centralized silo technology to try to protect you.
16:51Ethereum is seeing something remarkable right now...
16:53which is...
16:54the likes of bitmine and sharp...
16:56the largest corporate holders of ethereum...
16:59are staking in ethereum at a...
17:01scale that they've never seen before...
17:03and that's adding significant economic security to...
17:06the network...
17:07you're not seeing that in Solana...
17:09and I think this is going to be a really, really...
17:11positive force...
17:12and when institutions start buying ether to secure their transactions...
17:16on-chain...
17:17it's going to provide even more staked security.
17:19So...
17:20this is a self...
17:21reinforcing positive flywheel...
17:23and we're quite bullish...
17:24that now is the time...
17:25to...
17:26to enter this space.
17:27All right...
17:28let's talk about Sharplink...
17:29second largest corporate holder...
17:31of Ethereum...
17:32talk to us about your strategy...
17:33as we get deeper into 2026.
17:36Sure...
17:37I think...
17:38last summer you saw...
17:39the treasury...
17:40the digital asset treasury...
17:41space explode...
17:42across Bitcoin...
17:43Ether...
17:44Solana...
17:45and other chains...
17:46that was that first phase of formation...
17:48and initial capital gathering...
17:50we raised...
17:51a little over $3 billion...
17:53but we've built...
17:54the most institutional team...
17:56of any debt...
17:57and I would say...
17:58we're the most focused...
17:59of any of the digital assets...
18:01of treasuries...
18:02in the Ethereum space...
18:03because...
18:04we're run by people...
18:05who have traditional...
18:06finance backgrounds...
18:07who came from crypto...
18:08as well...
18:09who understand risk management...
18:10and...
18:11we've been staking...
18:12100%...
18:13nearly...
18:14of our ETH...
18:15from founders...
18:16foundation...
18:17because ETH...
18:18is a productive asset...
18:19unlike Bitcoin...
18:20you need to be...
18:21putting it to work...
18:22to earn...
18:23that 2.5%...
18:24to 3.5%...
18:25yield...
18:26we've also...
18:26been innovating...
18:27in this space...
18:28we like to think...
18:29of ourselves...
18:30as pioneers...
18:31while others...
18:32have either...
18:33not been staking...
18:34or just...
18:35earning the native...
18:36staking yield...
18:36we've been composing...
18:37institutional...
18:38DeFi...
18:39solutions...
18:40to drive...
18:41even...
18:41more...
18:42returns...
18:43to our investors...
18:44we announced...
18:45earlier...
18:46this month...
18:46that...
18:47we...
18:48deployed...
18:49$170 million...
18:50of our ETH...
18:51the largest...
18:51public company...
18:52deployment...
18:53into DeFi...
18:54in conjunction...
18:55with...
18:56consent...
18:56consensus...
18:57the linear...
18:58chain...
18:59EtherFi...
19:00and Eigencloud...
19:01to...
19:01essentially...
19:02do restaking...
19:03capabilities...
19:04on-chain...
19:05earn incentives...
19:06beyond...
19:06the yield rate...
19:07but...
19:08we did something...
19:09that no one...
19:10had done before...
19:11as a public company...
19:11to keep...
19:12this DeFi...
19:13investment...
19:14within a qualified...
19:15custodian...
19:16at Anchorage...
19:16so think about...
19:17what we're doing...
19:18we're allowing...
19:19investors...
19:20to get DeFi...
19:21level yields...
19:21while keeping it...
19:22within the protection...
19:23of a regulated...
19:24custodian...
19:25had never been...
19:26done before...
19:26that's...
19:27part of what...
19:28we're trying to do...
19:29to pioneer...
19:30extend...
19:31into DeFi...
19:31but not...
19:32take the risks...
19:33that you would see...
19:34in a Web3 wallet...
19:35so we're quite excited...
19:36this is...
19:36just great...
19:37for investors...
19:38you mentioned...
19:39digital asset treasuries...
19:40really kind of...
19:41took over the...
19:41spotlight...
19:42last year...
19:43heading into...
19:44it feels like...
19:45some of the air...
19:46has been...
19:47sucked...
19:46from the room...
19:47of course...
19:48there are strategies...
19:49like the one...
19:50that you just...
19:51outlined...
19:52that are...
19:53showing some...
19:54I have to ask you...
19:55I was listening...
19:56to Anthony Scaramucci's...
19:57podcast recently...
19:58Mike Novogratz...
19:59was on there...
19:59he said...
20:00he thinks...
20:01that a lot of...
20:02these digital asset treasuries...
20:03are going to be trading...
20:04below their...
20:05net asset value...
20:04unless...
20:05they can come up...
20:06with some real...
20:07business operations...
20:08how...
20:09do you...
20:10respond to that...
20:11and...
20:12can you tell us...
20:13a little bit more...
20:14about...
20:15the sustainability of...
20:14sharp link...
20:15what are those...
20:16business operations...
20:17that are going to...
20:18take you...
20:19beyond 2026...
20:20and bringing...
20:19investors...
20:20the value...
20:21that they're expecting...
20:22so I said...
20:23the first phase...
20:24is formation...
20:24had to do it right...
20:25many DATs...
20:26did not...
20:27form with the right...
20:28teams...
20:29or the right...
20:29incentives...
20:30second...
20:31is you have to make...
20:32your ETH productive...
20:33and we've been doing that...
20:34the beautiful thing...
20:35about having...
20:36permanent capital...
20:37and what do I mean...
20:38by that...
20:39we have a clean...
20:40balance sheet...
20:41we are not a fund...
20:42where you have...
20:43daily liquidity...
20:44we're just a...
20:44stock...
20:45that you can buy...
20:46and sell...
20:47every day...
20:48the billions...
20:49of dollars...
20:50of ETH...
20:51we own...
20:52we take...
20:49a decade-long...
20:50approach...
20:51to making it...
20:52productive...
20:53and so...
20:54our plan...
20:54are to do...
20:55two things...
20:56one is...
20:57to take...
20:58that certainty...
20:59into...
20:59the ecosystem...
21:00and offer...
21:01them...
21:02these protocols...
21:03multi...
21:04every year...
21:05locks...
21:06to allow...
21:07them...
21:08to grow...
21:09their protocol...
21:10knowing that...
21:09they can...
21:10use our ETH...
21:11in a productive manner...
21:12crypto...
21:13has never seen...
21:14permanent...
21:14capital...
21:15and that's...
21:16a really good thing...
21:17second...
21:18because of...
21:19our strategic partnership...
21:20with...
21:19the consensus...
21:20and having...
21:21Joe Lubin on our board...
21:22we now have...
21:23entree...
21:24to some of the new...
21:24newest...
21:25and smartest...
21:26protocols...
21:27and we will find...
21:28some of them...
21:29who will give us...
21:30token...
21:29value...
21:30which could...
21:312x...
21:325x...
21:3310x...
21:34because we're...
21:35early...
21:36into the...
21:34new institutional...
21:35DeFi cycle...
21:36and then without...
21:37sharing anything...
21:38that I shouldn't...
21:39as a...
21:39public company...
21:40CEO...
21:41we will...
21:42build...
21:43operations...
21:44and...
21:44businesses...
21:45in the Ethereum...
21:46ecosystem...
21:47that will...
21:48kick off...
21:49ETH...
21:49dominated...
21:50revenue...
21:51so it becomes...
21:52a...
21:53virtuous cycle...
21:54that said...
21:55we have to...
21:54recognize...
21:55that the valuations...
21:56have...
21:57consolidated...
21:58I think...
21:59in the long run...
22:00they will...
21:59mean revert...
22:00because...
22:01if you own...
22:02billions of dollars...
22:03of ETH...
22:04you're generating...
22:05staking revenue...
22:06dominated...
22:07businesses...
22:08I think...
22:09public markets...
22:10will...
22:11reward that...
22:12so...
22:13we're...
22:14built...
22:15for...
22:16upcyc...
22:17you...
22:18you...
22:19you...
22:20you...
22:21you...
22:25you...
22:26you...
22:35but you have a price target by end of year. I don't have a price target. I'll let others.
22:40Tell us where the price of silver, gold, ETH, Bitcoin are going in the next month.
22:45I have a very strong macro view that the more activity that is coming.
22:50To the Ethereum ecosystem, the L1 and L2s will drive demand for.
22:55Ether and drive the price of Ether up. I can't tell you whether we're going to get at it.
23:00This bit of a consolidated period this month or next month, but I'm.
23:05Sharing with you, if you're a long-term investor and you believe that decentralized.
23:10Are going to rewrite the wall street market structure. Now is the time to be.
23:15Winning Ether at this price and Sharplink offers that really smart exposure vehicle.
23:20Without a management fee that you see in the ETFs. Now is a great time to enter.
23:25Especially since the price seems to be poised for an increase.
23:30I'll allow others who are wonderful builders and speculators to pick the price for.
23:35Next week. I don't know what it is. I know the price will be higher quarters from now.
23:40Joseph, thanks so much for joining the show.
23:43Jen, thanks for having me. Stay warm.
23:51Hi.
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