00:00Yeah, a few heads of state making the trip to Hamburg for this summit.
00:05Most among them was France's president.
00:08Relations between France and France.
00:10France's Emmanuel Macron and Germany's Friedrich Mertz have been.
00:15Of late, a bit, how should we put it?
00:19Can't.
00:20I'd say Janet Seuss is with us, researcher for the Committee for the Study of Franco-German
00:24Relations.
00:25At the French Institute of International Relations, IFRI, you've just published a study on.
00:30How Germany makes its European policy, there you see it.
00:35I said chaotic.
00:36Maybe it's not chaotic.
00:37Let's just say it's a...
00:40It's not the bromance we expected.
00:43And in the face...
00:45Last week of superpower pressures from Russia, but also...
00:50Also from the United States, other Europeans are worried.
00:54They want the...
00:55Germans and the French get along better.
00:57What are the points of discord here?
00:59So first of all, I...
01:00I would say that we are in this time, in this phase of the relationship maybe where...
01:05The relationship is put to a test, whereas in the beginning...
01:10One year ago, there was this bromance, this narrative about that very...
01:15Symbolic, of course, first meetings between Macron and Merz, but now as things...
01:20Are materializing and we have to put it down to break it down.
01:25To different aspects, be it in the economic field, in the trade field, in the defense sector...
01:30The cooperation, it's becoming more difficult because it's becoming concrete, but there's always been...
01:35Divergences, structural divergences between France and Germany, so we have...
01:40A very big divergence in the trade sector, where Germany advocates...
01:45For free trade deals all over the world and France is a bit more reluctant and a bit more...
01:50Sectionist, you could also say, from a German viewpoint, then you have the defense...
01:54Corporate...
01:55The cooperation, but we also do have some leeway when it comes to, for example...
02:00The cooperation in the energy sector, so there is also some positive signs...
02:03And also some common measures...
02:05That are announced for more EU competitiveness.
02:07All right, so let's break down the first two, because again, this is...
02:10It's all about Europe building up its self-reliance in the face...
02:15Of a US ally that is not as reliable to them as they want to be.
02:20That's what France was.
02:21On trade, the difference over Mercosur...
02:25Is that surmountable?
02:26I mean, anyway...
02:29The...
02:30The deal was adopted at the end in the Council of Ministers and France was bypassed.
02:35By the other member states.
02:37This was, of course, a tough...
02:40The situation between France and Germany, because Germany was hoping to be able...
02:45To convince France by giving in and by giving some...
02:50Some compromises by giving in to the...
02:52The, um...
02:53The, um, concerns that they had.
02:54The carve-outs on...
02:55On...
02:56The carve-outs on...
02:57On...
02:58On...
02:59Far...
03:00...
02:55For the farmers especially and the demonstrations that were going.
03:00So there's of course a political pressure on the domestic side here.
03:05Germany didn't really convince Macron at the end.
03:07They had to give in to this political pressure.
03:10But there's other situations where we can see that.
03:15They both states are still pretty much aligned.
03:17So when it comes to Donald Trump they were both.
03:20In favor of having a clear stance towards the US for example.
03:24But Germany still has.
03:25This export driven model which the French don't have.
03:28So is that something that's.
03:30Insurmountable.
03:30And that's why it's easier for Germany to.
03:35Conclude these free trade agreements.
03:37Whereas for France it's a bit.
03:40A different story.
03:41But I think France is really worried about.
03:45About this agricultural sector.
03:46And Germany has other type of industries.
03:48Especially the automotive industry.
03:50Very export driven.
03:51So it has a hard time saying.
03:55It doesn't want to stop exporting.
03:58It really wants to continue exporting.
04:00Over the world of course.
04:01And then there's defense.
04:02Where the arguments run twofold.
04:04There's weather.
04:05Each side accuses the other of not leveling up enough.
04:08The French not spending enough.
04:10Are accused of not spending enough on Ukraine.
04:12The Germans accused of not spending enough.
04:15Period.
04:15And the two don't get along.
04:18When it comes to for instance.
04:20Plans to build weaponry together.
04:22Yeah.
04:22On the one hand.
04:23We can see that there is pretty much.
04:25Of an alignment when it comes to the rhetorical side.
04:27So there's this what Macron already.
04:30We said a strategic autonomy discourse going on since 2017.
04:35And Germany didn't really apply back in the day under Merkel or Scholz.
04:39And now.
04:40Friedrich Merz.
04:40He really welcomes this concept.
04:42He's also in favor of producing.
04:45More European based weapons systems as such.
04:48But when it comes to the concrete projects.
04:50Between France and Germany.
04:50So the F-CAS, the fighter jet.
04:52Future combat air system especially.
04:54And then we have.
04:55The MJCS, the main round combat system.
04:57Are both those projects dead?
04:59Dead.
05:00They're not dead.
05:00The tank project is a bit more reliable.
05:05However, for the F-CAS, the future combat air system.
05:08There is a very like.
05:10Hard competition going on.
05:11Because some people are saying Europe is facing an existential.
05:15crisis and that the last week, the threats against Greenland, what's happening in Ukraine are.
05:20There are existential crises and they feel as though they don't understand why the French and the Germans.
05:25Things aren't getting along.
05:25There's definitely a sense of urgency, I feel.
05:28However, yeah, there is this.
05:30Competition going on especially between Dessau on the one hand and Airbus.
05:35On the one on the other hand, then there's also the Spanish side in the Spanish part inside.
05:40So it's all a question about technological leadership, France.
05:45It's about losing its leadership, about losing its intellectual property and Germany.
05:50Having rather like a sense of wanting to share knowledge, to work together.
05:55collaboratively, but at the end just giving money without having necessarily.
06:00So last Friday, Friedrich Mertz goes to Rome.
06:05Sees Georgia Maloney, the far right head of a coalition.
06:10government and there extols that they can get along to.
06:15Together they can help to simplify Europe.
06:17The message was kind of like, is this the new.
06:20Motor for the EU or is France sidelined or what.
06:25What did you make of this Friday visit to Rome?
06:27I think it's rather complimentary because.
06:30What we have to put into context is and what we have to remember is that there has been.
06:35A dialogue going on already under the previous German government under Olaf Scholz.
06:40In 2023, Italy and Germany signed a bilateral agreement for an action plan.
06:45And now this is really an update of this action plan by materializing it into concrete.
06:50projects which are developed further.
06:52So of course, Italy and Germany have.
06:55A lot of things in common.
06:56There are major industrial powers within the EU.
06:58So sometimes it's a bit easier maybe.
07:00to collaborate in terms of industrial culture, but it can't replace the.
07:05Is the beating heart of the EU shifting from a Paris-Berlin axis to a Berlin roadmap?
07:10I wouldn't say that because we also have other actors within the EU.
07:13And we are seeing rather a.
07:15Multiplication of different.
07:17Different.
07:18Different forms.
07:19Different forms.
07:20Different.
07:21Different.
07:22Different.
07:23Different.
07:24Flexible formats within the EU.
07:25So it's rather.
07:26Middle lateral.
07:27Um,
07:28No.
07:29No.
07:30No.
07:31No.
07:32No.
07:33No.
07:34No.
07:35No.
07:36No.
07:37No.
07:38No.
07:39No.
07:40No.
07:41No.
07:42No.
07:43No.
07:49Do they prefer to do business with the Italians than with the French?
07:52There is a very narrow business.
07:54Do they prefer to do business relationships between Italy and Germany?
07:57Even though there is this kind of republican...
07:59Firewall in Germany that you have like in France and Maloney is from the...
08:04That's true, and that's something that is criticized also by the coalition partner, the Social...
08:09Democrats within the German government that Merz doesn't, shouldn't...
08:14...team up too much with Maloney and the EC.
08:19We are the European Conservative and Reformist Party within the European Parliament.
08:23And on the other hand...
08:24These are a talk coalition, so there is not a systematic collaboration going on between...
08:29...these political families.
08:30And getting back to Paris and Berlin, would you say the...
08:34...the relationship is in crisis right now?
08:36No, definitely not.
08:37There has always been a divergence.
08:39What we can see is definitely an improved relationship in the sense that it's very...
08:44...way more regular, that Paris and Berlin talk to each other, and there is a Franco-German roadmap...
08:48...that dates back...
08:49...to August 2025.
08:50The problem is that there has been so many government reshuffles.
08:54That both governments had a hard time implementing what they have been...
08:59...and announced in this Franco-German roadmap, especially focusing on EU competitiveness.
09:03Because...
09:04Macron seemed like the strong one next to Olaf Scholz with the weaknesses that...
09:09...the coalition issues that he had, now with the French governments falling consistently...
09:14...with Macron being term limited and leaving office, is...
09:19...the French the weaker link in this case?
09:21There is kind of a power shift that we can...
09:24...to a certain extent.
09:25However, I would say that Macron still keeps...
09:29...a certain momentum and keeps his power when it comes to steering from...
09:34...the foreign policy, as he has a very vocal stance and very important role of the constitution.
09:39...the French president, which is not so much the case for a German...
09:44...Chancellor in terms of position and possibility.
09:49So there is still this permanent role of Macron.
09:52However, of course, there is a lack of...
09:54...credibility when it comes to other policy domains, especially the...
09:59...interior affairs of France.
10:00All right, Janet, so many thanks for joining us here on France.
10:03Thanks for having me.
10:04Stay with us.
10:05There is more to come.
10:06More news, plus the day's business and sports.
10:09...
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