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Special interview with Craig Murray, Historian and former British diplomat. teleSUR
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00:00For decades, the U.S. has carried out a strategy of siege against Latin America and of European subordination.
00:06These strategies have been put more in evidence with Donald Trump's militaristic policies.
00:11We are now joined by former British diplomat, historian and human rights activist Craig Murray.
00:16Welcome to From the South, Craig.
00:19Thank you very much.
00:20Thank you, Craig, for being here with us in this briefing of From the South.
00:24Her first question, U.S. foreign policy has long been analyzed as an imperial project.
00:30How would you define the current U.S. strategy of siege against geopolitical rivals
00:34and other regions that envision a future different from that of the United States?
00:39Well, I think we can see a continuity in United States foreign policy,
00:44and undoubtedly it is still an imperialist policy, but it has gone up a stage under Trump.
00:51It has become more military.
00:55We've seen an attack on a capital in Latin America, which is something which I think few of us believe we would see.
01:03And it has become ultra-aggressive all around the world, but affecting Latin America in particular.
01:11And it pays no attention whatsoever to international law.
01:14We are seeing the U.S., you were saying, as the increase in these aggressions,
01:20we are seeing the U.S. with a much heavier reliance on unilateral sanctions, military threats,
01:24and ultimatum diplomacy, including Trump's tariffs threats.
01:27What does this shift indicate in an emerging multi-polar world?
01:31Well, I think the important thing to remember is that the United States has no rights.
01:38It is not lawful for it to unilaterally impose sanctions and embargoes on other states
01:44and then to seek to enforce them on the high seas and seek to kill people on ships,
01:50to interdict and capture vessels, to sell the cargoes brought into other countries.
01:58And the United States, for example, has had an embargo on Cuba for pretty well my entire lifetime,
02:05and I am not a young man.
02:08But this is really an ideologically driven form of systematic criminality.
02:16That's how I would describe it.
02:19As you were saying, Trump threats we have seen, for example, with the issue of Greenland,
02:23not only directed at its alleged enemies, but also partners,
02:27as the official narrative is one of alliance with Europe, for example.
02:30From your experience within the British Foreign Office, what are the real mechanisms,
02:35financial, political, or through intelligence networks,
02:38that ensure the subordination of European political elites to a Washington-led agenda,
02:43even when it demonstrably harms European economic and social interests?
02:48Well, I think, unfortunately, European elites aren't really that interested in European economic interests,
02:57other than the interests of the elite themselves,
03:00and they are prepared to follow Washington policy, even when it does real harm to Europe.
03:06For example, only yesterday, the European Union signed into law
03:12a law banning the import of gas from Russia,
03:17which is going to massively increase energy costs for European businesses and consumers,
03:23and is going to result in dependence on imported United States gas,
03:28which is much more expensive.
03:31So, you know, these are typical of the ways that Europe subordinates itself to the United States.
03:38And the United Kingdom, my own country in particular,
03:41I think it's very shameful the way it has behaved recently,
03:44particularly in failing to call out the illegality of Donald Trump's actions against Venezuela,
03:55to failing to call out the illegality of Israel's actions in Palestine.
04:01In your opinion, what can be done within the European Union to combat this,
04:07to find a way to move away from U.S. agendas,
04:09and to truly bring a more independent policy making that benefits the European people?
04:16That would be wonderful, but it would require a fundamental political shift.
04:21I'm afraid that globally, the neoliberal elites of the ultra-capitalist countries
04:27are not really interested in the welfare of their people,
04:30provided the elites themselves remain wealthy,
04:33and we're seeing a greater concentration of wealth.
04:37And the elites of Europe and of the United States
04:40see their personal advantage being in staying in lockstep together.
04:45So, even, for example, when Trump does something crazy,
04:49like threatening to a next Greenland,
04:52the Europeans don't really stand up to him in any realistic way.
04:58Well, at Davos, the economic forums that concluded recently,
05:02we saw some signs of the wake of European resistance
05:05in regards to everything that has to do with the issue of Greenland
05:08to these U.S. impositions.
05:10It is some form of European refusal of these countries to join Trump.
05:15We also saw the refusal of these countries to join the Trump's war peace proposition.
05:20Are these superficial statements, or maybe a deeper trend, of subordination?
05:24I think Europe is not entirely monolithic,
05:27and there are states within Europe, including Spain, including Ireland, including Hungary,
05:34which take a more sensible position.
05:36And sometimes we see elements of that diplomacy coming through.
05:40But the majority of European countries are controlled by extreme neoliberal governments,
05:47which don't really intend to confront Trump,
05:52and which have shied away entirely from condemning illegality by the United States,
06:00and which have failed to show any solidarity at all with those countries in Latin America,
06:05which are directly impacted,
06:09and the lives of whose citizens are being made far worse
06:11by the strengthening of tightening of sanctions,
06:15and by this military posture of threat.
06:19That's without even mentioning those people in Latin America
06:22that the United States has actually killed.
06:25As you were mentioning, the Latin American region,
06:27let's cross the Atlantic Ocean and move to the Latin American region.
06:31We have seen a very aggressive policy
06:33in this second term of Donald Trump's presidency.
06:36What are the main objectives that you believe that Trump is seeking
06:40with these aggressive policies that are being implemented
06:43against several countries in the region?
06:45I think, you know, plainly this is a form of naked imperialism.
06:52They seek to extend American hegemony,
06:56and in fact, American rule over Latin American states,
07:00force Latin American states to enact the laws which they wish them to enact.
07:05And they seek to end any remnant of socialist thought
07:12within the Latin American sphere.
07:16But those are very plain objectives that they are pursuing.
07:23They're also, as usual, seeking to physically force people
07:27to give up their resources, to give them oil, to give them minerals.
07:32And this is, it's not just imperialism.
07:36It's a very old form of imperialism.
07:39It's mercantilism in attempting to use direct military force
07:44to enforce trade patterns and to gain trade advantages.
07:49And that's to do with the extreme financial and money orientation
07:53of all of Trump's policies in every sphere.
07:56Let's say in Latin America, Craig, the siege takes different forms.
08:01We have the example of the tightening of the blockade of Cuba,
08:04the sanctions on Venezuela, and very recently the invasion on January 3rd
08:08and kidnapping of the Constitutional President Nicolas Maduro
08:11and First Lady Sila Flores.
08:13We also have seen political pressure on Mexico, Colombia, Brazil,
08:16with which he has also been major threats to these countries
08:20in the case of Mexico and Colombia.
08:22And in regards to the ongoing impacts,
08:24what are the ongoing impacts of these actions on the people of the region,
08:28not only those countries that I just mentioned, but the entire region,
08:31and how do you see this turning out in the long run?
08:34Will they succeed in what Trump attempts to make a fracture in the region,
08:39or will it instead fuel greater resistance and solidarity
08:42among Latin American people?
08:44We're seeing forms of action which are really completely outwit
08:49the normal sphere of diplomacy and international law,
08:53and which are simply unacceptable.
08:56For example, accusing the president of Colombia,
09:03like the president of Venezuela, of involvement in narco-trafficking,
09:09threatening to invade militarily Mexico
09:13because of the actions of the cartels in Mexico.
09:18Now, these are extreme forms of action
09:23which should have no place in the modern civilized world.
09:26And the United States always fails, of course,
09:29to acknowledge the fact that the actual cause
09:33of narcotics trafficking is the demand in the United States.
09:37It's its own sick society,
09:40the failure of its health and psychiatric policies,
09:43the places it places on citizens,
09:45which cause such high drug use in the United States.
09:48So it's blaming the world for its own problems.
09:51But the use of the excuse of narcotics, of course,
09:56is simply a cover for its aim to exert imperialist control
10:02for reasons of control of resources.
10:04As you were saying, the internal crisis in the United States takes many forms.
10:09We are now seeing militarization in the United States
10:13with the use of ICE, for example,
10:15to repress certain migrant communities within the country.
10:18How are, right now, as a human rights activist,
10:21how do you see what is happening right now in the United States?
10:24We recently reported on the killing of two people
10:26at the hands of ICE in the state of Minnesota.
10:29What are the impacts of these actions,
10:33these policies that Trump has implemented
10:34that are clearly affecting its own people?
10:37I think the activities of ICE
10:40are plainly completely out of control.
10:42I would add that ICE killed an awful lot
10:45of black and brown people
10:47before anybody really got very angry about it.
10:50It was only when they killed two white people in Minnesota
10:53that finally public indignation took off
10:58and the media finally got heavily involved.
11:01And that says something about inherent racism in the system
11:04and in public attitudes and media attitudes in the United States.
11:09But, you know, Trump is fundamentally attempting
11:11to change the United States Constitution.
11:16He is attempting to vastly increase executive power,
11:21to reduce the powers of courts,
11:23to reduce the power of states.
11:26And the United States is moving in a direction
11:29which is inarguably fascist.
11:32You know, these are very dangerous times.
11:36And we're going to see either the United States
11:38is going to be changed as the kind of society it is,
11:42or Trump himself is going to be removed from power
11:45before the end of his term.
11:46One of those two things has to happen.
11:48We will see which one happens.
11:50Craig, in the face of the black and human rights violations
11:52that are taking place within the United States
11:54and the criminal actions that the United States
11:56has carried out against foreign nations
11:58in different regions of the world,
12:00one has to wonder where are the international institutions
12:03that are supposed to be there
12:04to prevent such atrocities from happening.
12:06A clear example of this is what is happening right now in Gaza,
12:09the genocide that Israel is right now committing
12:11against the Palestinian people
12:13in front of the eye of the whole world.
12:16This has been an extremely sad period
12:18for those of us who believe in international institutions
12:21and who believe in the rule of international law
12:24because the United Nations has been shown to be toothless.
12:29The establishment of the Security Council,
12:33its formation, the ability of the United States,
12:36the United Kingdom and others
12:37to veto resolutions and veto action
12:40means that it has been unable to do anything
12:44as genocide has been committed in Palestine
12:47and hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have been killed,
12:49including tens and tens of thousands of women and children.
12:53We've all seen this happening,
12:55but the international community has done nothing to stop it.
12:58I was at the International Court of Justice in The Hague
13:01for the genocide case between Israel and South Africa
13:05and the International Court of Justice has been unable to stop it.
13:08The International Criminal Court has been unable to stop it.
13:11We've seen Israel annex parts of southern Syria
13:15and parts of southern Lebanon
13:17and nobody doing anything to prevent that either.
13:19I think these are very, very scary and sad times
13:24when the institutions of international law
13:27which have been built up since the Second World War
13:31are collapsing before our eyes
13:34because the ultra-capitalist states of the Western powers
13:38have no interest in maintaining them.
13:40And in this context, Craig,
13:42what is your take on Trump's so-called board of peace,
13:46which has not been exactly widely accepted
13:48and many analysts are seeing it as Trump's way
13:51to try to put the United Nations to the side
13:54and try to impose his own international system
13:58with the U.S., of course, at the head?
14:00I think we should start by saying
14:02that it is a sign of the collapse of international order
14:06that the Security Council ever endorsed the plan,
14:10including the Board of Peace.
14:12The fact that neither China nor Russia vetoed it
14:15shows we can't really look to those powers for salvation
14:17or to make the world a better and safer place.
14:21And the board piece itself is an obvious disaster.
14:26If you have a billion dollars, you can join it.
14:30And it contains people like Tony Blair,
14:32who was responsible for the destruction of Iraq.
14:35It contains Netanyahu,
14:39who was responsible for the destruction of Gaza
14:41and for the annexation of so much Palestinian,
14:44Syrian and Lebanese land.
14:46It is a wanted war criminal.
14:48It contains Kushner and others from Trump's side
14:53who are interested purely in redeveloping Gaza as real estate
14:57and making money out of it.
14:58It contains the dictator of Kazakhstan.
15:02It's a farce.
15:04It has nothing to do with peace at all.
15:06It's an imperial board of occupation and colonization
15:11for the seizure of the resources of Gaza.
15:15And in this context,
15:16why do you think it is necessary
15:18to try to return to the path
15:20of creating a more fairer, just international order?
15:23How important will be the actions
15:26of other regional groups,
15:27like for example,
15:28CELAC, BRICS,
15:29other systems that try to install
15:32a new system that truly tries to work
15:35for the benefit of the majority?
15:37I would love to be able to say to you
15:39that BRICS is an important part of the answer.
15:42But as I say,
15:43China and Russia let us down
15:45at the Security Council
15:46where they didn't veto
15:47the crazy Trump plan for Gaza
15:49and they didn't veto the border peace.
15:52So I'm not sure salvation really lies with BRICS.
15:55We all had great hopes for it
15:57a year or two ago.
15:59But salvation can only come
16:01from the majority of states in the world.
16:03The vast majority of states in the world
16:04are very much against
16:06what the Western powers are doing,
16:08are very much against the genocide in Gaza.
16:12The problem is the institutions of
16:15all of the international institutions,
16:18be it the United Nations,
16:20be it the International Monetary Fund,
16:21be it the World Bank,
16:24all these institutions
16:25have an inbuilt pro-Western bias
16:28in their procedures,
16:29in their staffing,
16:31in their leadership.
16:33We really need to see a fundamental reform
16:36of the international system
16:39that gives the global community
16:42of the South more power
16:44before we will actually see
16:46any real progress.
16:48Greg, all these struggles
16:50we have been speaking about
16:52are now also fought heavily
16:54on social platforms.
16:56Hegemonic media try constantly
16:58to picture a distorted reality
17:00to justify the Western powers' agendas.
17:03So how crucial is it to be able
17:05to give voice to the people
17:06to counter these strategies?
17:08And as we have been speaking,
17:09the clear examples that we have expressed,
17:11like what happens in Gaza
17:12where the occupation tries to prevent
17:14the world to know the truth,
17:15and in many other examples
17:16like you were referring
17:17to try to paint accusations
17:19on a sovereign leader
17:20and then justify that
17:22with their criminal military actions.
17:24So how crucial is also
17:25that struggle to take place
17:26in the social platforms
17:27to be able to inform the people
17:29of the different realities
17:30that every nation faces?
17:33I think the information struggle
17:35to inform the people
17:36is extremely important
17:38because, again,
17:41particularly in the West,
17:42all of the media
17:44is either controlled by the state
17:45or it's controlled by billionaires.
17:47So there's no truth for the people.
17:50It is simply what those in power
17:52wish for people to know,
17:53which comes out of the mainstream media.
17:55We have seen the power
17:57of social platforms
17:58in getting over the truth about Gaza.
18:01People, nobody would know
18:02the truth about Gaza
18:03were it not for alternative media.
18:05You would not know it
18:07from mainstream media.
18:08I make an exception
18:10for your fine channel,
18:11which is an unusual one.
18:13But nobody would know
18:15were it not for mainstream media,
18:17for social media,
18:18what's really happening in Gaza.
18:20But the problem is
18:21there's this disconnect
18:22between people and power.
18:25In my own country,
18:26in the United Kingdom,
18:27even in the United States,
18:29we are now seeing
18:30for the first time
18:31a majority of people
18:33in the United States
18:33favoring the Palestinians
18:35over Israel.
18:37But there's no way
18:38to translate that
18:39into government action.
18:40And throughout all of Europe
18:42and the United States,
18:43people attempting
18:44to take action on Palestine
18:45have been imprisoned,
18:47jailed,
18:48beaten up,
18:48and there have been
18:49increasing amounts
18:49of repressive legislation
18:51to keep the people down.
18:53Because information
18:54to the people
18:55is a danger to governments.
18:57But again,
18:58we need fundamental reform
19:00in the system.
19:01We need to have
19:01fundamental change.
19:03Because what has been revealed
19:04is that Western democracy
19:05is a fraud.
19:06It's a fake concept.
19:07that people can't actually
19:08affect the policy
19:10of the elites
19:11who govern them,
19:11no matter what they think.
19:13Thank you so much,
19:15Craig,
19:15for being here with us
19:16and sharing all these
19:17important topics
19:18in this Emission of
19:19From the South
19:19and for providing
19:21all different inputs
19:21to have more context
19:22for our audience.
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