00:00Joining me on the show tonight, Dr. Suraj Yengre. He's the author of Cast Matters. He's a scholar.
00:09We have Alokith Tripathi, PhD student from Delhi University. He's part of the general category
00:15student. We also have Professor Chandra Bhushan Sharma, who's an educationist, a renowned
00:21educationist, I must say. Dr. Yengre, I'm going to begin with you. The UGC says that these guidelines
00:28are aimed at creating equity in higher education. From your perspective, will it actually create
00:37the level playing field as the UGC is hoping it will, or will it deepen the divides which
00:44are already existing? It's good to see you, Miriam again, and I wish the country a happy
00:50Republic Day. I want to pay tributes to all the Famers of Constitution who have contributed
00:56and also singled out Dr. Ambedkar for his human service to the nation. This new directive,
01:02I think we should welcome it, simply because it really backs its policy with data. The number
01:09that you have just highlighted, 118 percentage rise, which is quite a significant number.
01:14It's not just double, it's more than 100%. This kind of new policy interventions, what does
01:20to any institution who is trying to create a level playing field, equality, is to provide
01:26more grounds for people to have a space where they can act and interact with people without
01:32any fear of pushback or also any liability that they may have when they have to raise this
01:38issue. You have to understand that these laws come from a place where a student who has overcome
01:45so many institutional barriers and then has gone to university and then to have faced the
01:50same after even gaining credentials and entering into an educational space is something that's
01:55really unbecoming of any constitutional republic. And I think what these provisions do to us
02:01at the moment is to allow us to reflect on and also create a sort of deterrence. Any policy
02:07is meant, or foundational principle of any law is to create deter, is to discourage, is not
02:12to encourage any form of violence or discrimination that may come across. So, I think when we
02:17see this in light of this broader debate and perspective, I think it's a great welcoming move
02:22and I think the department and the UGC who has done work behind this deserves a commendation.
02:28Okay, so you are welcoming it. What about you, Alokit? What are your concerns? And particularly
02:34students like you who come from the general category?
02:39Well, basically, the new UGC equity that they have included in the guidelines,
02:46according to this, the definition of caste-based discrimination, the new clause added in that
02:56they have been mentioned as a victim of SCSTs and OBCs as a victim. So victim can be a general
03:02cast, boy or girl can also also be a victim. So the biggest problem is that I see this.
03:09Apart from that, the second one was put in the PIL in the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court
03:17also mentioned that OBCs were not included in it. So this is completely a political move,
03:25you see this as a political move. Professor Sharma, as someone who understands policy deeply,
03:36do you believe that UGC has struck the right balance here? Is it, you know, good intention
03:43backed by good intent? The intention is right, but what about execution? And that's where the
03:50big challenge would be. Thank you, Maria. I guess this is an uncalled for regulation which
03:59the UGC has issued. As told, the Supreme Court had given a direction to the University Grants
04:06Commission to come up with such a regulation in the Vemula case that took place in Central
04:13University of Hyderabad. I have very strong belief that the University Grants Commission
04:20failed to convince the Honourable Supreme Court that the case was, or the suicide happened
04:30in spite of all the measures that we already have. I don't understand why we are, in spite
04:38of the guidelines, which is known as the SEDGs, guidelines for providing equitable opportunity
04:45for socio-economically disadvantaged groups. Why do you need a new regulation? You already
04:51have the internal complaints committee, which is a very, very strong and powerful body on
04:57all campuses. And we have seen on campuses, every complaint is taken very seriously and campuses
05:05are satisfied. Now, you have also made a provision of reimbursement, who is a person of eminence
05:12from judiciary or academics, and still you are coming up with this. I guess this is just
05:20to satisfy the Honourable Supreme Court. University Grants Commission failed to do its duties in convincing
05:27the Supreme Court that we already have these mechanisms. Now, this is one part of it, Maria, but on a very
05:33serious note, I have a feeling as an educationist, do you believe the complete society and the
05:40courts that we are a bunch of scoundrels in the university teaching our students and we don't
05:46love our students? You are asking me to write note every academic year that I will not discriminate,
05:54I will be indiscriminate, I will be indiscriminately and I will treat all students equal. That means you
05:58believe that till now we have been discriminating. And still students follow us.
06:03Okay, but… You are making our job very, very difficult on campuses. Now we are shifting from term and exam
06:09to semester where internal assessment is becoming part of it. How would we do our internal assessment?
06:15So then Dr. Yangri, the concerns are legitimate here about the fairness. And perhaps there is no need
06:24for a provision of this nature. Why bring it at all? It is just not required.
06:30Dr. Yangri, will you respond, Blin? Yes. I mean, I think when we are talking about fairness,
06:36the premise is that we are a fair society. That is a very wrong assumption. We are starting off from a point
06:43of departure which is unfair. And to set unfairness into motion, we need fairness.
06:49Now I take the concerns of fellow panelists into consideration and I would just want them to take a step back
06:55and think about all those vulnerable students, let's say coming from the hill areas of some tribal land.
07:01And when they are accessing these spaces, enormous institutional barriers are raised.
07:05And very fast starts, the faculty from SCST OBC community are not there.
07:10Now if Mr. Sharma, Professor Sharma has a student from a background who is equivalent or same background as a Sharma,
07:17he may be able to relate to it. But there is no way I can tell you if Professor Sharma has no access to any tribal land
07:22or the Dalit community, will be able to empathize with the live reality of this.
07:26So we have to understand that the faculty position, in fact, IIM, IITs are lagging behind with faculty,
07:32let alone have the representation of SCST OBC students.
07:37Now taking into this fact, if the whole idea is to set across a precedence of fairness,
07:43why is there not recruitment adequate to the SCST OBC population in the positions of faculty teaching,
07:50as well as the students who are apportioned a certain quota in universities?
07:54And we see there is a big blank check that remains to be filled.
07:59Moreover, when we recognize that the provisions are meant to support students,
08:06especially the kind of bureaucratic barriers that Professor Sharma has pointed out,
08:11that may create, if we are moving to semester and we have to write an additional report,
08:14I mean, you have to be accountable to that. That's why students are facing this problem.
08:18And if you are somebody who is there to look out for your students,
08:23I'm sure you'll have a joy to write a report to say, you know what, I did this.
08:26And this is the constitutional mandate.
08:28The question here is, Dr. Yengre, that, you know, aspirations of students like Alokit
08:34are perhaps being compromised in the name of social justice.
08:39I don't think so. I mean, I don't think Alokit has to worry about it
08:42if he's not going to go and commit a crime against SCST OBCs.
08:45If Alokit is just being a good Alokit student, contributing to the nature of…
08:50If there are fake cases, if there are fake allegations,
08:54if there are no punishment mentioned for them,
08:59if there are victims, they can also be a drawback.
09:04No, Alokit, you are right.
09:06If I may respond to him in Hindi or English, whatever you recommend, I can respond to him.
09:09Whatever you think is right. Please go ahead. He's spoken in Hindi, you can do it.
09:12No, Alokit, you don't have to worry, Alokit.
09:17What happens is that every candidate has a position.
09:20If there are candidates there,
09:22according to that,
09:24if they are not going to go ahead,
09:26the world is going to be a leader.
09:27Sir, let's suppose.
09:29If we have mentioned that North East area,
09:31somewhere where there is a student,
09:33if there is a female student,
09:36if they are coming out,
09:38that they have to be a family,
09:40who was a former Roaldi-Waadi,
09:42who was a student in the Meila-Sikshaya,
09:44who was a student in the Meila-Sikshaya,
09:46Now, I have seen a news about SRCC, which is a topmost institute, there will be a female
10:02student fake allegations in the SEST Act.
10:07Now, what we are necessarily seeing here is, there is a deep anxiety among the dominant
10:12caste students who are used to penetrating into the system by excusing their own self and
10:19really dominating within the discourse of their own caste culture.
10:22Now, if people like Alokit are confident that I am not gonna do anything that's gonna be
10:29against the constitutional value and other principles, I'll treat everyone equal, he
10:33not worry about fake allegations.
10:34Let me ask that question to Professor Bhushan Sharma.
10:40Professor Sharma first, do you think that the UGC should revisit these guidelines or should
10:47students like Alokit just adjust to the new reality?
10:52Professor Sharma?
10:53I strongly feel that this regulation is uncalled for.
10:59This must be revisited.
11:02And trust your institution, trust your academia.
11:06Instead of this regulation, I will ask one thing.
11:09You say that on the committee we will have three professors.
11:13Can the UGC ensure that every public university has at least three professors?
11:20You don't have.
11:21You don't have teachers.
11:22You have not filled a position in many states for the last 10 to 15 years.
11:27And you are talking about these committees.
11:29Think about your teachers.
11:30Instead of doing something for the universities, I think this is a political move and not an
11:36academic move.
11:37So that question that I asked, because of the backlash that we are seeing, what's the way forward?
11:42Alokit, your response and then I will give the last word to Dr. Yengle.
11:46Now I am recording a problem.
11:49There is also an equity squad that has been mentioned in 24-7 in a college premises or campuses.
11:55There will be surveillance on students, on their words, on their actions.
12:01So the first thing, where the government talks about scientific temperament,
12:07the second thing I am doing is the same.
12:08In the other hand, there are new rules or regulations that you can finally stand there.
12:13You can finally stand there by the people who are out there,
12:16and when we sign up in admission time that we don't have any caste-based discrimination,
12:22This is what my thinking is.
12:34Okay. I'll give the last word to Dr. Souraj Yengre. Please go ahead.
12:39Thank you, Miriam, for hosting this panel.
12:41I think what we ought to understand is there is a fear within the culprit's mind
12:46that I may commit this crime.
12:48So let me just be aware of this and not commit to it.
12:50Sir, the fear and fear can be developed at any time.
12:56I don't know if there are implicit and explicit acts.
13:00It's not defined at any time.
13:02I don't know if it's implicit for me or if it's implicit for me or if it's implicit for me.
13:08So this is a professor, teacher and non-teaching staff.
13:11There will also be a gap.
13:13Okay. Let Dr. Yengre finish his point, please.
13:15Yeah.
13:17Thank you, Miriam.
13:18I think that's why we need an overhaul of the system and we really need this kind of
13:23compulsory education about caste sensitivity, making students aware despite their background
13:27to know about each other.
13:28For unfortunately, our curriculum is so geared towards fitting the dominant narrative that
13:33very rarely we see a CAST culture and their kind of linguistic apologies that they come
13:39with by having their own tone into this market and getting underrepresented.
13:44And so for us, when we see this kind of a policy that is coming out with certain measures of
13:50progressiveness, we have to welcome the equity.
13:52And it's very good because we have seen that there is a rise of 118 percentage of such cases.
13:56And this is the government data, non-government data exceeds.
13:59So people like Alokit and others need not worry.
14:02In fact, they have to participate.
14:03Think of this space as a democratic space and a country that has gone far.
14:08And you have to think about beyond the caste principle that were existing pre-1950.
14:12Now we live in a egalitarian Republic of India.
14:14Okay.
14:15Okay.
14:16On that note, perhaps the right debate to have on 26th of January.
14:20So, Professor Chandrabhushan Sharma, Alokit and Dr. Yangray, really appreciate your time.
14:24Thank you so much.
14:25And to all the viewers of NewsTrack, happy Republic Day.
14:29Thanks so much for watching and I'll be seeing you tomorrow.
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