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In this special edition of Newstrack, experts explore the complex and contentious issue of caste-based reservation.
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00:00Thank you very much.
00:30Thank you very much.
01:00Thank you very much.
03:02Even if we don't recognize the degrees, even if we can achieve the degree or even if we can study the level of their degree,
03:09but we don't recognize the recognition. Even if we go to high post, they don't say that it's tribal or a divasi.
03:16So why can't we take this?
03:18We can't do this campaign.
03:19In Delhi, NCR, Mumbai, people who have their resources,
03:23and in Monger and Chhapra, they don't have their resources.
03:27It's the same thing to provide.
03:30When the resources will be provided,
03:33the equality will be created in Delhi,
03:37the same education in the village,
03:40then there will be more merit.
03:46The resources are provided.
03:48Many organizations do it.
03:50But it's the same thing that they don't follow up.
03:53Yes, they will give them and give them.
03:55We must say that the reservation is on the average level.
04:01We are thinking that the reservation is a very common problem.
04:05If you put the average level of people on the average level,
04:08then you will come up.
04:09But the average level, the average level, the average level,
04:13the average level are three.
04:15Do we create such a state,
04:18where we opt out this benefit,
04:20and now we are going to get up from the country,
04:23where our social dignity is ensured,
04:28where our economic equality and opportunity is ensured,
04:32where I don't have my employment insecurity.
04:36Now, when we come to that pedestal,
04:38we will opt out.
04:39We will say that,
04:40because even if I have a full form,
04:42where I have to take a visit,
04:43or take a visit,
04:44then there will be only three options.
04:46Three as in,
04:47SCST, OBC and General.
04:49And we are also going to get a place.
04:50The event is very important.
04:52It's all in the world.
04:53It's almost all in the workplace.
04:54For that reason,
04:56what are the weaknesses,
04:57what are the weaknesses,
04:58what are the weaknesses and alias,
04:59which are the ones that are considered towards health.
05:01It's not unique to them.
05:02That's why
05:04my point is that we need to know the scope of the nation's rights.
05:07And we need to understand the rights,
05:09we need to understand the rights of this country,
05:12and to and to push them to face theтировoly of their heads,
05:15and to push them apart through them.
05:16And we need to ask them to ask them to,
05:17Why are we going to deal with it?
05:19It is a very powerful statement that those who have less in life should have more in law.
05:24Reservation is a path that can make a path for the society, which is a path that will remain a little behind.
05:34Let me bring in the guests now. Dr. Suraj Yengde is author of Caste Matters.
05:39He joins me from London. Gaurav Jaiswal is a social and political activist, also the founder of Agrini.
05:45He's joining me from Sioni in Madhya Pradesh. Siddharth Shankar Dube is an advocate of Lucknow High Court.
05:51Narendra Jadav is a former member of Parliament, economist, educationist and also an author.
05:57Thank you so much for joining us. Dr. Yengde, I'm going to begin with you.
06:00You have written about structural humiliation and Dalit lives in your book Caste Matters.
06:06Can any conversation then on merit in India be honest without first acknowledging this history?
06:15Mariam, it's good to see you again and thank you for pioneering this debate, especially after 6 December, the day of observance of Dr. Ambed Kurs' death anniversary.
06:27I think the merit itself is a very tricky concept and it becomes flawed if we do not account to various structural barriers or accountabilities that do not fit into the making of merit.
06:40In India, the basic structure that makes up merit is what the society and culture in conjoint prepare us to face and this is caste.
06:49Caste can operate in various ways and various materialities.
06:53So when people say it's about merit, I mean, there's nothing wrong with the idea of merit.
06:58You know, we need merit. But how do we measure the merit is the problem.
07:04We measure merit in a very arbitrary way, in a very discounted fashion.
07:09Now we have the examination. We pass exam, like I became a lawyer in India on account of rote learning.
07:17Can you imagine? Like I was doing mugging up and going to exams and giving my exams and then becoming.
07:23So is that a metric of one's intelligence?
07:26So we have a very flawed system that doesn't account into person's background, creativity, many other factors that make an individual and their contribution to that specific subject topic.
07:38And that's why we cannot elaborate a dialogue on merit without really sustaining our attention to what really makes a person worthy of contributing to that specific discourse or knowledge or whatever domain area they work in.
07:53We usually assess merit in this context, Mariam, solely account of what kind of names you have, what kind of background you have, what kind of pedigree you have.
08:02That's not that's not truly representative of India's vibrant, dynamic and enlarging demography that we see today.
08:10So coming on this point specifically, Gaurav, from your work on the ground, what has reservation tangibly changed in the life of a first generation SCST OBC student
08:22or any kind of a job seeker?
08:26Multiple things, Mariam, multiple things.
08:28Reservation has changed.
08:29So the place right now I'm connected from in this conversation is called Sivni.
08:35Specifically, this village, the panchayat from where I'm talking to you is called Kurai.
08:39It's a tribal panchayat.
08:41Right now the sitting serpent of this panchayat, her name is Taruna.
08:47Taruna used to be a student in a center we used to run like 10 years before.
08:52She comes from a tribal background.
08:54She's a tribal girl.
08:56She was able to get her education and later get into politics and now serving as an elected public representative.
09:07There are hundreds and thousands of such examples around.
09:10I would like to quote another one.
09:12One of our students, his name is Naveen.
09:14He right now serves with Indian Railways.
09:17He comes from a scheduled cars background.
09:19Right now, after being in service for a few years,
09:24he's trying to mobilize more such people working in different government jobs
09:31to mobilize some money to support more students coming from scheduled cars,
09:37OBC, scheduled drive background from the area.
09:41So there are hundreds and thousands of such examples.
09:44Why just first generation?
09:49I'll say there are second generation and third generation also.
09:54So if we want people to, like the examples I quoted are the people who were able to get into government jobs
10:03or who were able to become public representatives in their first generation.
10:08But I'm quite sure that the coming generations of these people will become IS officers.
10:14They'll reach much bigger positions.
10:17Taruna may have become a serpent, but maybe someone from her generation will become a prime minister at some point of time in this country.
10:25So this is not just about first generation also.
10:28Yes.
10:29So that's an important, you know, example that you give,
10:32because we have several such examples amidst us.
10:36And that's why we say that reservation, the intent with which it started,
10:41perhaps served its purpose to some level or to some extent.
10:45Siddhar, let's talk about that original intent.
10:48What was the original intent behind reservation?
10:51Compensation for justice or an instrument to secure substantive equality?
11:02So, yeah, Maria, you raised a nice question.
11:06And when we talk about the intention of caste-based reservation,
11:10we must acknowledge the debates of Dr. Ambedkar while being in the Constituent Assembly,
11:17where he specifically mentioned that the caste-based discrimination is prevalent in India.
11:25He acknowledged it.
11:26But at the same time, he said that certain measures are to be undertaken
11:31in order to ensure that they get the so expected social justice and equality,
11:37which was, you know, long expected.
11:39And they were subjected to those discriminations.
11:42But it cannot be something in perpetuity.
11:45It needs to be temporary till the time that social justice, the inequality,
11:53all these issues are addressed.
11:56So, basically, whenever, like, K. Munshi ji ne bhi ya hi kaha tha,
12:00that, you know, it cannot be uncontrolled.
12:05It has to be measured.
12:08It has to be kept under restrictions.
12:10And that's how it got evolved over time.
12:13And Constitution, our Constitution itself is a very evolving document.
12:18And laws, since, I believe, we have another panelist who comes from a legal background.
12:24And here, Hajima.
12:26Yes.
12:27So, for the viewers, Gaurav and Siddhartha were part of that larger conversation,
12:33which happened as part of the Three Seas project.
12:36So, you can go online and listen to their views in a more elaborate fashion.
12:40But let me bring in Narendra Jadhav.
12:42From an economist's lens, sir, what does the evidence tell us?
12:47Has reservation improved educational quest, educational quality,
12:53and employment outcomes for these groups like the SCs, STs, and the OBCs?
13:03Well, the short answer is yes.
13:08It has improved, but not substantially.
13:12To take a long-term view, you know, I would like to cite from a big study.
13:21Everybody knows the concept of GDP, you know, gross domestic product.
13:26One OECD economist did a very interesting study about how the Indian economy,
13:34how the old civilization like India and China might have evolved over a 2,000-year period.
13:41It turns out that India's share in the world GDP was as high as 31.5% in year one,
13:51when the Gregorian calendar started.
13:55And over the years, it has been falling precipitously.
13:59And by 1991, when there was an unprecedented macroeconomic crisis in India,
14:05it had fallen to less than 4%.
14:08Now, it has taken a U-turn, and now it is going up.
14:13And presently, it is in the range of 7% or 8%.
14:16So what explains this precipitous fall, and what explains the upward turn?
14:22What explains the precipitous fall over the 2,000 years, nearly 2,000 years,
14:27is nothing but caste discrimination.
14:30It's very simple.
14:31The logic behind it is very simple.
14:33When only a handful, only a fraction of the society is allowed access to education,
14:41and all the remaining people are denied the opportunities for education,
14:46how can that society grow?
14:48How can that economy grow?
14:50And even if it grows, how can it sustain it over a period of time?
14:54That is precisely what has happened.
14:57I believe that the caste discrimination has undoubtedly slowed down India's economic growth
15:04over a long period of time, and now it is taking a U-turn.
15:08To that extent, one can say that there is a distinct positive gain because of the reservations.
15:17Professor Janda, how do you then interpret the persistent gaps?
15:21If you look at the…
15:22Yeah.
15:23Okay, sir, please go ahead.
15:26No, no, no, no, no, no.
15:28I was saying that you take any range of socio-economic indicators.
15:35The socio-economic indicators will tell you that over a period of time since the independence,
15:41if you take, or from 1951 when the planning process started in our country,
15:45if you look at the socio-economic indicators, you will see that the gap between the so-called upper caste
15:53and the so-called other classes, the scheduled caste, scheduled tribes and OBC has narrowed.
16:00It has narrowed, but it has not been eliminated.
16:04So something has been done.
16:06Cried as it may sound, much has been done, but much remains to be done.
16:11That would be my statement for this evening.
16:14Okay, then let me ask you to elaborate a little more, Dr. Jadav.
16:18How do you then interpret the persistent gaps in income, land ownership and literacy across castes,
16:25even after decades of reservation?
16:27Is it the failure of the policy or perhaps depth of original inequality?
16:37That is because the caste discrimination has changed over a period of time.
16:42Once upon a time, it was in a blend form.
16:45That blend form is gone.
16:47Now it resides in the mindset of the people and it has become more sophisticated.
16:54It is more pernicious in this sophisticated form.
16:58And therefore, implementation of reservation is certainly grossly inadequate.
17:05In fact, the scheduled caste and scheduled tribes and OBCs, they have a double whammy.
17:10Because on one hand, what is offered to them by the constitution is not adequately and effectively implemented.
17:19And on the other hand, a large number of people believe that so much is being done for them and time has come to stop it.
17:26I think this is a double whammy against the scheduled caste, scheduled tribes and the OBCs.
17:32Okay, Siddharth, based on your own experience, does the introduction of EWS, which is extreme backward, weaker section quotas, without caste criteria, strengthen the case for universal economic-based affirmative action?
17:49Or does it dilute the core logic of caste-based reservation?
17:56No, the idea of economical, weaker section-based reservation is a remarkable step taken by the government.
18:03So, nonetheless, you have to acknowledge that there is a prevalent economical disparity in different sections of the society.
18:11And those are prevalent in the general sections as well.
18:18So, you cannot sway away your face from that.
18:23You have to acknowledge the prevalent situation.
18:26So, the government has taken up the task of addressing the economical disparity prevalent in the general community.
18:34Because the general community was the primary victim of this whole set-up.
18:39When you are addressing the social justice part, you cannot shun the idea by saying that it is just not about economical disparity.
18:49It is about social justice, political equality and everything.
18:53So, the economical aspect is certainly an important aspect which ensures the livelihood of a person or individual.
19:00So, to address that, this measure is nothing but the best model gotten by the government.
19:06Okay, just I have enough time for Dr. Suraj Yangde's last and final comments.
19:10Dr. Yangde, is the resentment against reservation actually resentment against loss of unspoken caste privilege?
19:20Or do you see genuine policy flaws that need reform?
19:25Dr. Yangde, I think the later and as well as the previous.
19:29I mean, it's not a simple binary that we can draw at this point.
19:33But, you know, on the question of, you know, economic mobility, you know, we have to look at, you know,
19:37I like to draw attention to the 55th National Sample Survey data, you know, looking at informal sector.
19:42You know, I think we are having anxieties about a very tiny percentage of India's labour force capturing certain government-aided institutions or positions that are available.
19:52So, less than, less than 3% of government formal sector is employed, that is, eligible to receive reservation.
19:59More than 93% in India is informal sector. There's not even reservation there.
20:03And of that category, if you see, Oxfam had this report in 2010, which was categorizing according on the economic lines, which are as follows.
20:12The extremely poor, the poor, the marginal and the vulnerable. And you know what? Among these four poorest categories, 89% were from Dalit and Adivasi background.
20:22And Muslims who work in the informal sector were 85%. And let me tell you, the women who were of the lower caste were 95%.
20:29So, when we make an argument, an economic incentive to do this, we are essentially talking about people who are already available.
20:36Okay. Okay. So, the constitutional policy, Miriam, really gives an adherence to the economic disadvantage.
20:43It just is soared in the eye because people like Suraj Yangde or Professor Zadow tend to use that policy that are out there and really make good out of it and shove in the face of those who deny that there is a merit, there is a talent and there is an availability of pool of data that can really subvert this notion of casteism,
21:03where people like us who are not formally dressed and present to yourself, which is not used to the eyes of upper caste, dominant caste people, because they are often used to seeing us carrying the manual or doing manual labor for them.
21:15I think that's the right note on which or perhaps a food for thought on which I would like to end this discussion.
21:20Thank you so much for joining us, Professor Jadav, Dr. Yangre, Gaurav and Siddharth.
21:25Let's continue this conversation online and do tune in and watch that entire debate, which has triggered or started our discussion, which is which we are calling the 3C project.
21:38Thanks so much for watching.
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