00:00Nigeria is taking a stronger stance against failed public projects.
00:04President Bola Hamet-Tinumbu has now signed the debarment policy,
00:08a move that grants government agencies the right to blacklist, sanction and prosecute contractors
00:15who take up public funds, promise to deliver quality projects, but at the end of the day,
00:19fail on these promises.
00:21This policy aims to achieve accountability and transparency in public procurement process
00:27while ensuring an average Nigerian gets real-time value for the tax he or she pays.
00:33Hello and welcome to Guardian Talks.
00:43To help us understand this segment is Engineer Adekole Mokuolu,
00:48a former president of the Nigerian Society of Engineers.
00:51Thank you for joining us, Engineer.
00:54You're welcome, Angola.
00:57All right, let's get right into this interview.
00:59So to the first question, many Nigerians are familiar with abandoned or poorly executed public projects.
01:06How exactly would this debarment policy change the behavior of contractors
01:09and ensure that Nigerians get value for the taxes they pay?
01:14Thank you very much for this very important question.
01:17The policy of government, the recent policy to debar non-performing contractors from government projects
01:28is a very, very welcome idea because it's a way that government will be able to self-regulate itself
01:36in the sense that if you are demanding performance from me and you are going to sanction me for lack of performance,
01:44then, of course, it is assumed that you will be the first person to perform since you are the promoter of the project.
01:54So now that we have a new tax structure in Nigeria,
02:03that is the National Tax Act, Nigerian Tax Act 2025, which took effect from 1st of January,
02:13we found out that when contractors who really are the intermediary between the government and the citizens,
02:26once they are sanctioned, you know, they are the ones that will deliver on projects.
02:32And if they are sanctioned, they will cry aloud if government has not done its own part.
02:38Okay, so to the next question, I mean, we've heard about a lot of high-profile contract failure.
02:44Some years ago, we heard about the Tsujimoto project failure in Enungo State.
02:50So now let's look at it from this angle.
02:52I mean, how exactly would this debarment policy take place,
02:57especially if prominent figures haven't been prosecuted yet by the courts?
03:04You see, for failed projects, it is very, very difficult to prosecute, you know, defaulters.
03:15Because usually, government projects, you know, kind of have what you call immunity,
03:22in the sense that if they do not do it well,
03:26there is likelihood that most of the facts that will be used to convict, you know,
03:33offenders, or those who are alleged to have breached one or two processes, you know, they can be covered.
03:41And if those facts are not brought to the front, I mean, to light, nothing can be done about it,
03:48especially if they are still in power.
03:51The other thing is that, like the project you mentioned, this Tsujimoto in Enungo,
04:01whenever a project is not well-concepted, that is, there is no planning, proper planning, design, and the cost,
04:10and even the cost-benefit analysis and environmental impact assessment,
04:15it's likely to have a problem, no matter how laudable that project is.
04:21So, what we should be talking about, actually, is that we should have, we should spend more time planning, design,
04:33costing, and cost-benefit analysis, including the source of funding, before we even embark on a project.
04:43Well, Sage Engineer, thank you so much for that.
04:47So, to the last question, can you tell us briefly, in your own honest opinion,
04:54do you think an average Nigerian would be able to get a real-time value for the taxes they pay,
05:01when does the government's policy becomes fully implemented?
05:04The answer is yes. Capital, yes.
05:07Because, you see, we have to know that life is about engagement.
05:15Like, basically, you cannot say you want to buy rice, for example,
05:22and you stay in your house, and then you go, you don't go to the market.
05:26Or you send somebody to the market, and you bought the wrong brand,
05:30and you have paid for that, you know, for that particular brand,
05:36and you are not getting value for your money.
05:38So, essentially, when people pay tax, okay, then you can demand for your rights.
05:47And I think this is what the government wants to do.
05:50So, with this, for example, like I said, the departmental policy,
05:56if you debar me because I did not perform,
05:59I now have the rights to cry out because I'm in business to make profit.
06:05I'm in construction industry to make profit.
06:08So, if I have a valid contract with you, and you debar me,
06:13in which case it's going to affect, you know, my business,
06:17my profit, and even my personal well-being, I will cry out.
06:23So, that is the beauty of this, of this policy.
06:30And when you juxtapose it with the new tax policy,
06:36yes, tax policy or structure that we have now,
06:41people will not be able to ask.
06:43You know, we've been saying it before.
06:45You are spending taxpayers' money.
06:47But because people are invading tax,
06:50so they cannot come to the open to demand for what is theirs.
06:55Because, you know, like they say,
06:57he who must come to equity must come with clean hands.
07:01If you really pay your tax transparently,
07:04then you'll be able to come into the open.
07:07Because you have not hidden anything from the person who has,
07:10that is the government who has taken the money,
07:12and government said, I'm going to do X, Y, Z for you.
07:16Then you'll be able to demand it.
07:18Because you know you are clean.
07:20Thank you so much, Engineer.
07:22Thank you so much, Engineer Adekule Mokuolu,
07:25for this insightful conversation.
07:28And we hope to have more of you next time.
07:30I've been so delighted.
07:32And thank you for inviting me.
07:34Enjoy the rest of your day.
07:35As the debatment policy takes full effect very soon,
07:39Nigerians are hopeful that it would curb the excesses of public contractors who under-deliver.
07:45Fadima Rachel for Guardian TV.
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