- 2 days ago
This week on Power House, Zeb Lowe sits down with Anthony Casa, President and CEO of UMortgage, for a candid conversation about what actually drives long-term success in the mortgage business.
Anthony reflects on his decades in the industry, sharing why mentorship remains one of the most critical (and most overlooked) factors for loan originators. He explains how building early relationships with real estate agents compounds over time, why consistency matters more than short-term wins, and how earning trust is still the foundation of every successful career.
The conversation also takes a personal turn as Anthony opens up about his own transformation, including sobriety and renewed focus on health and wellness, and how those changes reshaped his leadership style. He connects personal discipline to professional performance, arguing that sustainable success in mortgage lending starts with how leaders take care of themselves.
Anthony and Zeb also dig into the industry’s structural shift from retail to broker channels, discussing why compensation, flexibility, and culture are driving that movement—and how marketing strategies must evolve to support it.
This episode is a grounded look at mentorship, leadership, and why the long game still matters in mortgage.
Here's a glimpse of what you'll learn:
Why mentorship is essential for new loan officers
How early agent relationships compound into long-term success
What Anthony’s personal transformation taught him about leadership
Why health and wellness matter in high-pressure careers
How the broker channel is reshaping mortgage competition
Why culture and autonomy attract top talent
How marketing strategies should match individual sales goals
Why consistency beats intensity over time
How to succeed in today’s market conditions
Why earning trust still matters more than tactics
The Power House podcast brings the biggest names in housing to answer hard-hitting questions about industry trends, operational and growth strategy, and leadership. Join HousingWire president Diego Sanchez every Thursday morning for candid conversations with industry leaders to learn how they’re differentiating themselves from the competition. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.
Anthony reflects on his decades in the industry, sharing why mentorship remains one of the most critical (and most overlooked) factors for loan originators. He explains how building early relationships with real estate agents compounds over time, why consistency matters more than short-term wins, and how earning trust is still the foundation of every successful career.
The conversation also takes a personal turn as Anthony opens up about his own transformation, including sobriety and renewed focus on health and wellness, and how those changes reshaped his leadership style. He connects personal discipline to professional performance, arguing that sustainable success in mortgage lending starts with how leaders take care of themselves.
Anthony and Zeb also dig into the industry’s structural shift from retail to broker channels, discussing why compensation, flexibility, and culture are driving that movement—and how marketing strategies must evolve to support it.
This episode is a grounded look at mentorship, leadership, and why the long game still matters in mortgage.
Here's a glimpse of what you'll learn:
Why mentorship is essential for new loan officers
How early agent relationships compound into long-term success
What Anthony’s personal transformation taught him about leadership
Why health and wellness matter in high-pressure careers
How the broker channel is reshaping mortgage competition
Why culture and autonomy attract top talent
How marketing strategies should match individual sales goals
Why consistency beats intensity over time
How to succeed in today’s market conditions
Why earning trust still matters more than tactics
The Power House podcast brings the biggest names in housing to answer hard-hitting questions about industry trends, operational and growth strategy, and leadership. Join HousingWire president Diego Sanchez every Thursday morning for candid conversations with industry leaders to learn how they’re differentiating themselves from the competition. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Welcome back to the Powerhouse Podcast. I'm your host, Zeb Lowe, and today we've got a conversation that I've been looking forward to for a while.
00:07Joining us is Anthony Kassa, President and CEO of YouMortgage, and someone who's been a fixture in the mortgage industry for over two decades.
00:16Anthony started as a loan officer at just 18 years old, and since then, he's built multiple successful companies,
00:22founded the Association of Independent Mortgage Experts to advocate for the broker channel,
00:27and has become one of the most outspoken voices on where this industry is heading.
00:32But what makes today's conversation especially compelling is that Anthony isn't just talking about business strategy and market trends.
00:38This is a conversation about leadership, resilience, and winning in a market that refuses to make it easy.
00:44Anthony, thank you for joining me.
00:58It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
01:00Of course, and I need to let the audience know we're recording on MLK Day, which is a day that most people take off.
01:09I very much appreciate you taking the time out of your day, like I said, to come and join us on a non-traditional recording day, let's say.
01:17Absolutely. In the mortgage business, as much as it's a federal holiday, all the lenders are open. It's a work day for us.
01:24Right, right. Exactly. I wanted to have you on to talk about a couple of things, but first, I wanted to start with the op-ed that you wrote for us.
01:36It was called The Playbook for a Rookie Loan Officer, What I'm Telling My Son Before His First Year.
01:43And it was, honestly, it was one of my favorite contributor pieces of the last year.
01:47And I would encourage anyone in our audience that hasn't read it, take four or five minutes out of your day to do so.
01:54Because in your article, you share great advice for anyone in the industry that's looking to set themselves up for success.
02:02And you break it down in a really succinct and helpful, easy-to-follow way.
02:06But the premise beneath the article was very unique.
02:11Like, you know, you were writing it kind of in lieu of your son preparing for going to take his NMLS exam.
02:19So unpack that for me.
02:21Why did you feel compelled to write it?
02:24You know, what spurred all of that on?
02:26You know, it's such an interesting situation.
02:29See, my son just turned 21.
02:31He got licensed as an LO, you know, six months ago.
02:35So, and, you know, it's kind of, like, re-inspired me in many ways, re-energized me just about, like, the thing that, you know, I fell in love with this business about originally, which is, like, you know, being a new LO and learning this business and learning how to support consumers on their path to the American dream.
02:54So as I've gone through this, I've kind of, like, had this thing where it's, like, my wheels start turning at any given time.
03:01And I always want to share these antidotes or these approaches or the things that are important with my son.
03:07But then I start to realize, like, man, how many people, you know, that are coming in this industry don't have a dad that's writing them, you know, giving them that advice or pulling them aside to coach them up on different things as they go through that first year?
03:19Because this is a, it's a 100% commissioned job.
03:22It's a really tough industry to break into.
03:24There's no loan officer school.
03:27So you really need a good mentor and you've got to get a little lucky to make it in this business.
03:32If you ask any loan officer how they got in the business, it usually starts with something like, it's a funny story.
03:39So to me, I really want to get those things that are siloed in my conversations with him into writing and kind of build out a playbook for as we bring new loan officers in this business, which, you know, I'm super passionate about.
03:51So it's interesting that you bring up the phrase fatherless, because I, in the past couple of shows, and I've talked about this for a long time with, in conversations like these with fellow originators, when it comes to homebuyers or borrowers, where they don't, so many potential homebuyers are, I guess, like, they feel, they may have a father, but they don't feel like adults.
04:20You know, with any sort of financial literacy, you know, wealth planning, estate planning, they, like two or three generations of fatherless consumers out there.
04:33And I also talk a lot about, in our industry, I've been, not as long as you, but I've been in the industry for 15, 16 years, and I feel like I've seen a decline in general of professionalism amongst LOs.
04:48And that's due to a lack of, I think it's no secret, a lack of mentorship.
04:55And you're, as an LO, you're kind of in this weird space to where if you're lucky enough to get a really good mentor, that's a roll of the dice.
05:05And those are few and far between because the, I guess the cliched model is that you have a branch that is run perhaps by a producing branch manager that was rewarded with a, becoming a branch manager, because they were like a, like a notch on their belt or something.
05:21But they're more concerned with production because they're a producing branch manager, not so much mentorship, not so much growth, not so much coaching.
05:29And so you have, they'll, they'll recruit and promise training to LOs and promise mentorship, but they, they don't know the first thing about it or they definitely don't do it.
05:40And, or your alternatives to invest really heavily upfront is an emotional investment, a monetary investment on getting a, a coach, a business coach or a mortgage coach.
05:51And a lot of people don't take that step until they're a couple of years into industry and they're wanting to get to the next level, not right out of the gate.
06:00So that platform that you kind of set up that playbook, I thought was, I thought it was quite perfect.
06:08I'm curious though, how is your, how does that look from, from, from, from your son's angle?
06:15Like, you know, he, so he's been in the industry now for a little over a year.
06:18Or what's, what's his experience like getting into it?
06:22You know, it's, it's eyeopening.
06:24And everything you just said, Zeb is 100% spot on it.
06:28And while I've had a lot of new loan officers come into the business at You Mortgage, this is the closest I've ever been to one.
06:36And the mentorship piece, like you're 100% spot on, like the branch manager, you know, God bless them.
06:43They're focused on their own business.
06:44And it's a really lonely place to be a new loan originator in this business, man.
06:50Like I, I empathize at the highest degree after watching my son.
06:54And, you know, I forget because of where I'm at, you know, I've been doing this for 22 years.
06:59I, I like, I, I, I, I don't know, maybe I just take things for granted at this point, but man, it is so hard to build, build a book of business.
07:07When you're not confident in the, the guidelines, you haven't done many transactions.
07:13So you don't know the milestones competently.
07:16You know, every agent in the world is going to say yes to you, but you don't even realize that a lot of them are just going to take you up on a free lunch and you're spending money on somebody that's never going to send you a deal.
07:25So, you know, for me going through this side-by-side with him, it's allowed me to understand our gaps as a company and, and how we support these individuals.
07:36And we've, we've actually introduced some new trainings and some daily huddles and stuff like that.
07:41I call it sort of like systems for trust, because the truth of the matter is this is like when you're at this point in your career, it's not about giving them a playbook.
07:51It's not actually about teaching them the mortgage went on because it's only matters for them to know when it's applicable.
07:59So like if, you know, the biggest thing that they're focused on for the first couple of months is getting leads.
08:04And then once they get the leads, it's like, even though they've been a loan officer for a couple months, they don't know how to put a deal together.
08:10So now all of a sudden, like month three, when they have some deals, they want to learn about, you know, how to read a credit report and how to understand the 10 or three, even though you might've taught that, that to them earlier, because it wasn't applicable, they don't remember it.
08:21It wasn't, they weren't actually practicing it at that point.
08:24So I think for me, it's really changed the way that I believe we need to support these individuals.
08:32And I think, you know, there's got to be a better way.
08:35This is such a great industry and the income potential is really, really amazing.
08:40But the mentorship piece is missing.
08:43Like I look at financial advisors, like, I don't know if you've ever had any friends that became a financial advisor,
08:48but you'll notice like for their first two years, they're on an appointment with their boss.
08:53And it's like, they don't actually write their own business.
08:55They're literally the apprentice of, you know, of, of that person.
09:00And then eventually after two years of being under that person's umbrella, they eventually grow up and get to do business on their own.
09:06That's what we're trying to develop here at You Mortgage after going through this experience with, with my son and also other new LOs.
09:11It's like, we got to do, we got to, we got to provide a higher level of touch from a mentorship perspective, not, not a branch manager perspective.
09:19It's interesting that you say that with financial advisors and CFPs, I spent some time, I spent several years in the reverse mortgage space.
09:27And a big initiative was to partner with CFPs and financial advisors and teach them about the equity options with the reverse mortgage.
09:37And so whenever I would go to the local offices and I would see the new hires there, you're exactly right.
09:44And it's wild that you're saying this is in my mind, like, man, I wish, I wish my first year or two as an originator could have looked a lot more like that than, than the reality of the situation.
09:57Yeah. And that, and that's what that playbook that you're, you mentioned that people, I mean, I, I highly recommend any new loan officers out there to go take a look at it.
10:04Is it really just kind of outlines, like, what are you hoping to accomplish in that first year?
10:08Because the first year is going to go back, going to go by extremely slow when you're in it.
10:13And then when you look back, it's going to, you're going to feel like it went by in, you know, a jiffy.
10:18And to me, you know, you really just have to have clear understanding.
10:21It's like, you're not going to knock it out of the park in the first year.
10:23Like there's some very basic things that if you focus on for that first year, aren't going to, you know, get you to that six figure mark in year one, but it'll give you the foundation where when you get to year two, you've got something to build off of.
10:37Like you can actually, you have a real shot of getting to six figures and you have some momentum to go with.
10:42But, you know, if you don't know what those things are, a year can go by really quick and you've got no foundation.
10:51You're still looking for, you know, consistent referral partners or you're starting over because you picked the wrong partners.
10:55So I think it's a great learning aid for anybody in that situation.
11:00You were brought into the industry with a, you had a rather unique mentor yourself, didn't you?
11:05Yeah, you know, I got in the industry when I was 18 years old.
11:11So, you know, I'm, you know, I'm 41 now.
11:15Just this past week, I turned 41.
11:17So I'm actually 23 years in the business now officially, which is hard to say.
11:21But my mentor, the person that got me in the business was a guy named Mike Shad.
11:25He was an offensive lineman for the Eagles.
11:26First Canadian, first round draft pick in the NFL.
11:30And, you know, I was able to, you know, sit by him in a call center, listen to him all day long, regurgitate everything I heard from him to consumers.
11:40It was a different world then.
11:41I mean, we're talking 2003, 2004, very, very different world.
11:45But, you know, I learned structure.
11:47I learned discipline.
11:49I learned the importance of being a financial, a mortgage advisor because he was a great one.
11:54And for the first year in the business, I was very lucky to have a good mentor.
11:57Not a lot of people get that opportunity.
12:00One of the things that I found interesting in your article that I really appreciated is I felt like it was a mix of old school techniques, mentality, strategy with new, right?
12:12And so when you're in the playbook, you talk about posting, you know, three times a day, right?
12:17One video, one picture, and one basically text or written post.
12:24But you also talk about your relationships with agents.
12:29And the advice is to work with newer agents and to work open houses, you know, work on more affordable homes.
12:39And to me, that's what I did.
12:41That feels old school to me.
12:43What I see a lot in listening to podcasts and going to conferences or, you know, to the newer LOs or just, you know, you go out there and you go after the topic.
12:53You know, you're your own.
12:54Because there's this thing that loan originators often fall into where they kind of at the whim of the real estate agent, right?
13:02And they have to bend over backwards.
13:04But if you have a high-producing agent, then you just kind of have to be their whipping boy and then subservient to them 24-7.
13:12And going after, like I said, those established high-producing agents, I feel like I see quite a bit of spurring people to do that now, which is not, I'd say, I guess, more new school mentality.
13:26So how do you feel about that?
13:27Why is that the right entry strategy, in your opinion, which I tend to agree with, but the walk before you run, get new agents, educate them, build those relationships from the ground up?
13:37Why do you think that's so effective?
13:39Yeah, it's a great question.
13:40And I'll be honest with you.
13:41The people that are giving that advice that you're talking about, like the new school of going after the top agents, they haven't been a beginner for a very long time.
13:52And that's why they have this luxury.
13:53So they're all the way at the top of the hill, and they're telling all these other people, like, hey, go after the top agents.
13:57Don't waste your time.
13:58Sounds good.
13:59But when you're a 20-some-odd newbie or however old you are getting in this industry, believe me when I tell you, if you have no experience and you approach a top agent, they will undress you, they will embarrass you, and they will dismiss you very quickly.
14:15This is a tough business, man.
14:18I mean, it is tough, tough, tough.
14:19And I've seen it happen to my son where I'm like, hey, man, like, you've got to build your confidence with people that are on the same path as you.
14:27You have this unbelievable thing where you're going to grow up with a generation of real estate agents together.
14:31Like, you're 21.
14:32You have a bunch of agents that you build partnerships now.
14:37In 10 years, they're going to be top agents because their time in market is going to be unbelievable.
14:42And at that time, everybody's going to look at you as the guy that has all the top agents.
14:46But they're not going to be top agents when you've got them.
14:48And I think for me, I'm taking that long-term approach where if you think it's easy to get a top agent, well, then it's going to be easy to lose a top agent.
14:57What's hard is to build a relationship, show up with that person that has no leads, and go to an open house on Saturday and hope some buyers walk through.
15:05And hopefully, you guys can tag team and cultivate a relationship.
15:08And then over time, you start to build that rapport.
15:11You get referrals.
15:13But there is no easy path.
15:15And as a new person, it's unrealistic for you to think you're just going to go into Redder and start calling the top agents in your market.
15:23Those people have LOs that they've been working with for 5 to 10 years.
15:27There is loyalty and relationship in our business.
15:29So I think it's both the best short-term play, but I really believe it's the best long-term play if you do it right and you build those relationships and you grow with them over time.
15:40I think that speaks, though, to what's kind of underlying this conversation when you said that there is no short-term path, but there is a path.
15:47And that's what the industry, I think, is sorely missing is the idea that a career as an originator is a long-term path with milestones that you can set every 5 and 10 years, not necessarily 5 weeks and 5 months.
16:07And what you're talking about, you're really talking about a cohort of people, of professionals that are coming up together that, like you said, in 10 years, that's on the track to be a lifelong relationship, lifelong business relationship that is going to weather far heavier storms than a top agent that you might piss off and then they delete your number.
16:32A hundred percent.
16:33And I think if you talk to the top LOs that are out there, I think one of the commonalities that you'll have in those conversations is they'll tell you, like, they've been working with their top agents for a long period of time.
16:49Like, they're not worried about somebody kind of swooping in and stealing that relationship.
16:53And that's because they put in the time to build that rapport.
16:57They go to each other's kids' birthday parties.
16:59They go to barbecues together.
17:01Like, this is a real relationship.
17:02This isn't just a business relationship.
17:04And I think that's one of the unique things about the mortgage industry is, like, when you're a hundred percent salesperson, you really bleed with your partners.
17:10You know, you go through the thick of it a lot with them.
17:13And that's what makes it a really loyal two-way street.
17:19I feel the same way with my referral partners.
17:21I'm the owner of a company.
17:22My referral partners are my LOs.
17:24And so, you know, when you're in it with them and you're there for them when they have bad days and they're there for you when you have bad days, it's more than just the transactions that make that relationship.
17:34All right.
17:36I wanted to switch gears here and talk about something else that you've ties in your business and personal a little bit.
17:44And you shared this.
17:45You've been pretty open about it online.
17:47Your sobriety journey.
17:49And you've been, I think, over a year sober.
17:52Congratulations.
17:5340 pounds lighter.
17:54Completing Spartan races.
17:55And for a lot of people, that's an incredibly vulnerable thing to share.
18:02What made you decide to be so transparent about this with your, not just your, you know, your referral network, but the entire industry?
18:10Yeah.
18:10You know, I honestly, you know, for me, you know, just for stars, you know, I woke up and, you know, a year ago, I was turning 40.
18:19I was Q4 of 2024.
18:21I was turning 40 in a couple months and I'm looking at myself in the mirror.
18:26I'm like, man, I'm 50 pounds overweight.
18:29My energy levels were way lower than they were when I was in my mid-30s.
18:34My sharpness wasn't where it needed to be.
18:36And I just was like, man, I got to make a change.
18:39And, you know, for me, you know, it started with, hey, I'm going to stop drinking.
18:43And then it turned into, okay, I'm going to start exercising and all these other things that really were monumental to get me to the point where I'm at today.
18:51But along the journey, you know, what really happened is the more people I talked to about my sobriety, the more people were just like, man, it's like so inspiring, you know, to know that, you know, you were able to make this change.
19:04It's like, you know, in this business, there's so much going out to dinners and, you know, whining and dining and all that stuff.
19:10It's part of the mortgage culture, to be honest with you.
19:13And I think, you know, there's different impacts that that has, you know, whether, you know, I always tell people every bad decision I ever made, I stems back to drinking, whether it was when I was actively drinking or the day after I was drinking.
19:28And, you know, I think for a lot of people to know that, like, hey, you know, you can be in the mortgage business and you can be successful and you can, you know, do all the right things and not live that culture.
19:43You can have your own culture.
19:44Like when I have people coming to town, you know, believe it or not, instead of going to dinner, we go to breakfast or we go to lunch.
19:51You know, I'm in bed by nine o'clock, so I tell everybody, I'm like, hey, we're going to have an early dinner tonight and this is what we're going to do.
19:57And they can drink and doesn't, like, I'm completely supportive of anybody else.
20:01But I think being able to show people there's a different way is important.
20:06But it's not just about the business life.
20:08It's also about what does it do in your personal life, too.
20:11Because, you know, for me, one of the things is, like, when you stop drinking, you know, all of a sudden you're more present everywhere and you're more present with your family.
20:18You're more present with your partner or your spouse or whatever that situation is.
20:22So the end all be all is it's helped me elevate as a human being.
20:27And as a result of it, it's made me a better leader here at U Mortgage and better in my life as well.
20:33What's been the reception like from your peers in the industry, you know, going to the conferences?
20:40I mean, conferences half the time are thinly disguised frat parties, right?
20:45So what has been the reception like whenever you've, you know, you made that, you turn that corner and, you know, you're in those rooms and in those spaces?
20:54Yeah, it's so interesting.
20:56You know, there's a group, there's a really large group of people that I never had relationships with before that came out of the shadows, and they're super supportive.
21:07And I've gotten so many messages and had so many exchanges with people, and that's been unbelievable.
21:13There's another group of people that I had really close relationships with, and those people all disappeared because, you know, and I don't know why it's maybe it's a, I don't know, maybe it's a weird vibe that they felt that now that I was this way, I was alienating myself from that.
21:29I really wasn't.
21:30But, you know, I think those people kind of disappeared.
21:34So it's interesting.
21:35I don't, I think for me going to a conference now, I would strictly go for the purpose of the quality of the conference, not for the after parties and the happy hours.
21:46And, you know, I think that's part of the changing dynamic for me of the way I think, you know, I would look at conferences as before it was all about the party.
21:55Now it's all about the quality of the content and the substance that you're going there for.
21:59Right.
22:00But, you know, you posted something, something along the lines that, you know, you can, you can transform, you can change your life or transform your life in a year, in one year.
22:10And I did it.
22:12So for people that are, it's the beginning of the year, people are setting goals, they're doing, you know, wanting to turn a corner and loss.
22:20So if anyone that's listening is feeling stuck or they're going through burnout, they are in need of an overhaul, where did, this isn't a one size fits all advice, obviously, but where did, where did you start?
22:32What did, like, what did day one of this journey is transformation for you?
22:36What did that look like?
22:37Well, the first thing I would say is I read the book, The Slight Edge, and I could not, if there's only one book you're going to read that, that I think will help you get on this path, I think it's The Slight Edge.
22:48And I read it like three or four times in a row, it's a short read, it's a great book, but it's all about the-
22:53Who's the author?
22:54You know what, that's a great question, and I actually have the book right here, give me one second.
23:01It's Jeff Olson, and it's a great book, I strongly recommend it for anybody.
23:08And whether you're trying to get healthy, whether you're trying to get your business a little more dialed in,
23:12trying to get your marriage a little bit more dialed in, it's a great book for all those things.
23:15But really what it came down to for me is just, like, not trying to, you know, boil the ocean.
23:23I just started, like, I didn't try to, like, revamp my health, lose a whole bunch of weight, drop drinking, and do all these things at one time.
23:30It just started with drinking.
23:32And I just started with a 30-day challenge to myself.
23:34That's how, like, it wasn't like I'm going to stop drinking forever.
23:37I think a lot of people make this mistake of trying to think of, like, things in forever changes, and that's where they fail.
23:42So I just, I stopped drinking for 30 days, and then after 30 days, I felt really good.
23:48I was like, let me do this for another 30 days.
23:50So I think, you know, Jesse Hitzler talks about this a lot.
23:54It's like, pick one habit that you want to change for 90 days.
23:58And then don't try to over-convolute it and do multiple things.
24:02Just pick one.
24:03And that's what I would say is don't have a New Year's resolutions.
24:06Have one goal that you're going after and do that for 90 days.
24:10If you get off track, okay, you had a bad day.
24:12Get back on track and don't give up.
24:15But I think you just start small.
24:17I think what you'll see is if you can master one singular habit, you'll build the confidence that you can take that to another habit.
24:24So to me, it started with alcohol, then it was exercise, then it was nutrition, then it was the next thing and the next thing.
24:32And, you know, all of a sudden you look back, and 12 months have gone by, and you lost 50 pounds.
24:37You haven't, now I'm at a point where I haven't drank.
24:39It'll be 500 days this week that I haven't drank.
24:41So it's been well over a year.
24:44And, you know, I just, I sleep eight hours a night.
24:47I used to sleep like three hours a night.
24:49I just feel at 41, I feel better than I did at any point in the last 10 years.
24:56Do you practice or did you practice either visualizations or positive affirmations or, you know, writing down on a daily basis your goal or your goals until you've met them?
25:08Yeah, absolutely.
25:09I think one of the things that I do that came from this, and a lot of James Clear talks about atomic habits and the Slight Edge talks about a lot.
25:17It really is that daily reflection.
25:21So for me, I have a standard daily reflection I do every single day, and it's three parts.
25:26It's one part is what I get done for the day, and I bullet point that out.
25:31What are my priorities for the next day?
25:33So I have clarity on the next day what I need to get done, and I'm not writing out every single thing.
25:37I'm writing, you know, these are, you know, the top five things I got done today, the top five things I need to do tomorrow, and then what are my opportunities for improvement?
25:44That's one or two things.
25:45And when I do that at the end of the day, it's very much what you're talking about.
25:50It's a little bit of journaling.
25:51It's a little bit of visualization, but it's also it's a little bit of this clarity that happens of saying, like, okay, well, what are the things that, you know, result in me eating poorly?
26:01Or what are the things that, you know, resulted in me being in a situation where I felt uncomfortable and, you know, I could end up drinking or something like that?
26:07And just once you write it down and you acknowledge it, now you know what to prevent from happening in the future.
26:14Or you can author how you want it to change in the future.
26:17So that's what I do, and I think it's extremely effective.
26:21I'm curious from a leadership perspective, like how, what decisions, rather, what decisions are you making differently now in light of the past year?
26:32You know, what clarity do you have now that you feel like you didn't really have before?
26:37You touched on some of this in your previous answer, but can you expand on that from a business perspective?
26:43Yeah, man, it's been a game changer.
26:46I mean, like for me, like, I'll just give you an example.
26:48It's like, you know, we're talking about differences.
26:50Like I have a, I wear a whoop and we've got 50 of our team members here.
26:56You more should all have whoops.
26:57So we're all in this little leaderboard community where we can see have an app, the whoop app, where we can see who had the best strain, who had the best sleep, who had the best recovery.
27:06So we're really competitive about it.
27:07Like everybody's trying to be the best every single week.
27:10Um, so, you know, yes, like you would think like we're a mortgage company, like maybe the Anthony, why aren't you competing about how many loans you're doing or how many fundings you have?
27:19Like we, we do all that too, but because we've started to focus on health, it's really kind of allowed us to focus on the things that really make people more productive.
27:29And that, that, this is where I had a blind spot for the first 20 years in this business is my thing was, this is my, my only thing that thing that mattered to me when I was talking to people is productivity.
27:39Performance and productivity.
27:41It was all about that.
27:42And what I realized over this last year, as I've kind of had my own epiphany of health is like, that's the top.
27:49If you were looking at a health pyramid, performance, productivity is the top of the pyramid.
27:54Everything under it is your sleep.
27:57It's your mental health.
27:58It's your nutrition.
28:00It's your relationships.
28:01Believe me, you, you want to know how many people that I start to ask questions to over this last year, as I got on this health journey and say, Hey, how's everything going at home with your spouse?
28:09If you think somebody can be productive, if they got a marital situation going at home, you're absolutely crazy.
28:15So you might want to talk about the numbers, but if they got that going on in the back of their head, they're not going to be very productive.
28:20So it has opened a whole new dimension of the way that I look at people and the way that I lead as a, as a leader is I start with that stuff.
28:28Hey, how's everything at home?
28:30You know, I see, you know, like, you know, I don't sit there and tell people like, Hey, I see you put on weight, but I'm saying, are you doing, you know, are you, are you working out?
28:36Are you, are you sleeping well?
28:38And once you uncover that, that's when you start to realize, like, if you can help people get on the right path with some of those things, the work stuff will work itself out.
28:47If they're sleeping well, believe me, you're going to get a focused person during the day.
28:51If they're working out, you're going to get somebody that's super productive on the hours that they're working.
28:56If they have healthy relationships and everything's good with their kids, they're going to be able to focus at work.
29:00So it's changed the, my entire leadership approach, man.
29:04And I think it's trickled down to my leaders, our leaders here and our team members in a big way.
29:09They see I'm different.
29:11I'm way calmer than I used to be.
29:12If you were to watch a video of me when I did this, you know, two years ago with Diego, I was probably jittery and like, like, you know, all over the place.
29:20I'm way more calm than I've ever been and I'm a lot more thoughtful about, you know, what people go through and what really drives their performance than just, you know, the numbers.
29:31Yeah.
29:32Well, it's just, it's cognitive load, right?
29:35I mean, if you've got, if your home life is a mess and then you're showing up at work, you're not leaving that behind.
29:41And it's burning brain calories and taking up space that it doesn't need to, it doesn't have to be there.
29:49It's the same thing if you're not healthy, if you have an injury, I mean, it's just constantly kind of gnawing away at, at your, at your potential.
30:01Yeah.
30:01Right.
30:02And it's just minor obstacles that you're constantly having to overcome to get, to get to your goal, like I said, in a professional environment that just,
30:11just drain you.
30:12It's like, it's like Chinese water torture, right?
30:14Just a little bit constantly at a time.
30:17How do you balance this, you know, the idea that you're going to get a little better every day or you're getting better every day as a, as a philosophy?
30:27How do you balance that with recovery?
30:30Like with, you know, rest and, and a path to sustainability.
30:35So great.
30:35That, that, that's kind of the word of, you know, of the year for me is sustainability.
30:40I think I, you know, the, the way that I look at this is, you know, you, you first have to start by saying that if you want to be, if you really want to be healthy and you want to sleep well,
30:54if you want to eat well and you want to exercise, it's going to limit your number of hours total.
30:58Okay. So it'd be like, if you're doing those things, that's, it's probably 10 hours a day, just between exercise, sleeping well and eating well.
31:06So, you know, you know, that's, that's basically almost half your day is gone.
31:09And so for me, uh, what I think about is like, what are the things that I need to be great at on a daily basis?
31:18Uh, you know, I used to try to jam my schedule, like from, I would get to work at, you know, 6 AM till, you know, seven at night.
31:26And I would have meetings all day long.
31:28That is ridiculous.
31:29Like that, that makes no sense.
31:30You cannot be great for that many hours in a row with no breaks, with no notes, with none of those things.
31:35So to me, it's like really getting focused on the things that matter the most.
31:40Um, because if, if you're, if, if you're, if you're not at a mental capacity where you can be present in other areas of your life, you're not going to be effective.
31:49So that's one part of it.
31:50The second part of it I look at is I look at, you know, from a, from a sustainability and my personal health and my, you know, in my recoveries and whatnot, is I take a common sense approach.
32:00I take my vitamins every day.
32:02I drink a gallon and a half of water every day.
32:05Um, I really, like I talked to you about it as I really try not to, you know, eat after five o'clock at night.
32:11Um, and for the most part by not skipping any days, I've been able to be fully recovered and feel very, very healthy every single day.
32:19Um, the biggest impact for me is when I, when I skip my work days, you know, this is, this is one of the things that I've learned is like taking a weekend sounds good on paper.
32:29Um, but I would come in on Monday and feel like I started over.
32:33I would have all this anxiety and stress.
32:35I feel like I, you know, I, I, I did, I, I built all this momentum the previous week and I come in the next Monday and feel like I started over.
32:40So one of the things I implemented was just a one hour of, of dedicated work on Saturday and Sunday morning.
32:45Each I do, I do, I do some reflection of the week.
32:48I identify priorities for the following week.
32:51Um, I respond to emails, not nothing, no, no heavy lifting, but just one hour dedicated work.
32:56It makes me feel like I've worked, you know, consecutively for the whole week.
33:00And when I come in on Monday, I'm not starting over.
33:03I'm building off of the momentum from the previous, you know, week that I kept going.
33:06So I think consistency is more important than intensity, like doing a little bit every day versus having this intensity of like, Oh, I'm going to, I'm going to work 15 hours today.
33:17And then, you know, I'm going to take a day or two off.
33:19It's like work less hours, but work consistently, you know, on, on, on a, on a sustainable basis that you feel comfortable with.
33:26I just had a conversation, uh, with, uh, Ryan Grant from Neo and we were talking about the, uh, hunter versus gatherer.
33:35There are other articles written saying this hunter versus farmer, but it's a personality type.
33:40And the hunter is one that is intensely focused for short bursts of time and gets a lot of stuff done.
33:52It's very much a, a salesman mentality.
33:56You, you know, you, you, you keep what you kill and how many loan originators are really geared, especially top producers are geared more as a hunter than a gatherer or a farmer.
34:08And if you want to survive in the modern world and you want your business to be able to sustain itself, you need to embrace the aspects that, that make you a good salesman, that make you a good originator on the, on the hunter perspective, on the hunter side of your personality, lean into that.
34:26But you either hire a team or, and, or implement systems that allow you to adopt the, the benefits of the gatherer of the, of the, of the farmer.
34:40Yeah, I think, I think, I think, you know, it's, it's funny you, you bring this up because I just had this conversation with one of our salespeople who's had a lot of ups and downs in their first couple of years in the business.
34:49They've, they've actually done exceptional, but they, they have these ups and downs and what I tried to explain to them is eventually you build a business and you get to be the gatherer.
35:00Like eventually, you know, you get to that point, but it's a slow build and you have to start with this.
35:07You're spending 90% of your time hunting and only 10% of your time gathering.
35:11And then as you do really good for a customer, they'll refer you another customer as you do good for a realtor, they'll refer you another customer.
35:19And if you do that good enough over the course of a couple of years, all of a sudden you go from 90, 10 hunting versus gathering to all of a sudden you get to 50 hunting, 50 gathering.
35:28But then you get to the, you know, 10 year mark in this business.
35:31And then you get a lot of times where you're like, Hey, I'm just gathering because my business is so robust.
35:36I have calls coming in from my past clients, referring to people, I have agents that are sending me all their loans and I'm just in gathering mode.
35:43And that's like the utopia of where every salesperson wants to get to at some point.
35:47But the, the, the truth is if you aren't a disciplined hunter for a long period of time, you never get to that point.
35:54If you, if you keep stopping and thinking like you're, you're there before you're there, you're going to find yourself going through lots of ups and downs.
36:01Right. I wanted to, uh, uh, pick your mind on the broker versus retail data that you'd shared recently.
36:11Uh, you shared that a broker channel was going up, headcount was up, I don't know, 12 or 13% and retail was down.
36:20I, I should have it in front of a 10% or something.
36:23What do you think is changing in the industry that where we're seeing this shift?
36:28And one, do you think it's an anomaly? You think it's temporary? You think this is going to be a sustained shift?
36:34I think, I think this, I think we're way past the point where we can challenge, um, where it's, it's a debate.
36:39So I'll start with this is the data you're referencing, uh, HousingWire recently had an article featuring this Redder data and Redder is a great platform for, for, you know, loan officer and real estate agent analytics and transactional data.
36:52And basically they, they came out and said, Hey, in 2025, the, uh, loan officer headcount in the broker channel grew by 12 and a half percent.
37:01So the, the number of loan officers as a headcount ratio grew by 12 and a half percent in the retail channel, the LO headcount decreased by 11.7%.
37:11So this is a zero sum game. There isn't like a fountain of loan officers coming into business. There's, there's a finite number of loan officers and they're going from one channel to the other.
37:22And it's almost one for one. What this channel is losing, this channel is gaining almost identical. So, you know, to me, if I go back to, you know, 20, when I, when I started my first mortgage, uh, brokerage garden state home loans, the more, and that was back in 2011, the broker channel was at 7.8% market share today.
37:45Today, it's at over 25% market share. So, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, the trend is clearly going in one direction. And I think the why behind it comes down to a lot of things. I think, um, one of the things you hit on early in this interview, you talked about the role of mentorship and leadership.
38:02I think that has been a, a used bag of goods that's been sold to LOs for a long time. And I think they're at a point where they're like, well, I really don't get a lot of value out of that from retail vendors.
38:14So what they would trade for, because that's the whole reason why they go work for retail vendors are getting mentorship and leadership. Well, if they don't find that valuable anymore, now it's like, well, I'd rather move over here to the broker channel where I don't have a branch manager. I don't have a market leader. I don't have this leadership, but my comp is twice as much. And by the way, I have lender optionality. So I can see where pricing is on a daily basis. If one lender is not, you know, very, uh, priced very aggressively, I can go to another lender.
38:42When you work for a retail lender, whatever rate you see every day, that's what you get. You don't have, there's no competition. There's no accountability. You work for one lender. So if that lender says, Hey, I don't want, um, you know, investment properties, we're going to price ourselves very, you know, uh, very poorly on investment properties that we don't have an appetite for.
39:00Well, if you're a loan officer that you're in a market that there's a lot of investment properties and that's what the agents are referring to you, you're not going to be very competitive. The thing about the, the wholesale channel is while, you know, one lender might not be very aggressive at a certain, you know, price bucket or a certain, uh, product, another lender loves that product. And that's all they're doing. And they'll price very aggressively. Like you mentioned that you did some reverse, uh, mortgages in the past.
39:22Well, you know, the number one wholesale lender in the country, UWM, they don't do reverse, but guess what? We have three or four reverse lenders that we work with that love it. They provide amazing service. They're very competitive with it. They're banging down our door for more business. That's their thing.
39:37So I, I think what's happened is there's a accountability, uh, piece that is, is there where they, they, they like the ability to choose different lenders and hold the lender accountable. If they, if they provide good service and good pricing, they can make a switch if they're not doing their job to, I think transparency is key. You can see what the pricing is in all these different places and transparency is a big deal. And three, I think at this point there, there's a trade-off that's been made. It's like, I'm willing to trade in leadership for higher compensation.
40:05By going to the broker channel, I'm going to increase my comp by three quarters percent. I have no leadership. I have none of that, but I'll use my extra three quarters percent to pay for a coach. That's what I'm seeing. And I think, I don't think that trend is going to reverse anytime soon. I think it's, it's been going on for the last 10 to 12 years, very aggressively. And, um, it's, it's a winning model. And by the way, the, the number one and number two lenders in the country by a mile, you, you know, UWM and Rocket, um, you know, UWM is 100%.
40:35Wholesale, Rockets 35, 40% Wholesale. Like there's something to say for, for that, for them.
40:42My last question, uh, would be LOs going into 2026 that are, let's say on the, they're, they're trying to either decide, you know, brokerage or retail, or perhaps should I leave retail and go the brokerage route?
40:59What advice would you share with them?
41:03I think, I think that the first piece of advice I would give them is no matter where, what channel you operate in, um, there is so much business out there.
41:14It's just not easy business. It requires hard work and you have to compete for it.
41:19So whether you're a broker or a retail loan officer, you gotta, you gotta go to open houses. You gotta, you gotta work the, the, the relationship. You have to earn the business. And even when you get a referral, that borrower is not going to be happy with where rates are at today.
41:35It's not like when, when rates are 3%, the borrowers are like, okay, sign me up. Let's go. When rates are 6%, they're like, you're going to shop around. So, so even when you get a deal, you still have to compete for that deal. Make sure you're servicing that client very well.
41:47So I think foundationally it's like, that's number one. Now, what vehicle is better for you to serve your clients is up to you. Like there's a lot of LOs that it's very specific to them. Um, but I think from a mindset perspective, you have to, you have to be in a situation where like committed to the business. You have to understand this is a new normal work to, you know, this rate environment started in 2022. We're in our fifth year of a higher rate environment. Get over it. Okay. Like stop talking about the good old days.
42:16The good old days are now almost a decade of past. So you got to embrace the market and you have to realize this is, this is what we're dealing with. And it's still an amazing opportunity. There's so much less competition out there from a macro perspective. And if you're just willing to make the calls and go out and work the relationships, there's business to be had. So my biggest thing would be, you know, lean in, um, and focus on, on, on competing and winning, you know, the relationships that are out there and the clients that are out there.
42:45Anthony, thank you so much. Thank you for, I really, really appreciate you taking the time to, uh, to speak with me and definitely need to get you on again soon.
42:53I appreciate it, man. It was great talking to you and, uh, thanks for taking time on MLK Day to spend with me.
42:59Yes, sir.
Comments